protected by a silver spoon
what about lc tier contributors
"Barely any significant change" completely overlooks the rise of RecycleFloon which is pretty much the sole reason why this suspect is even happening. As for being incomparable to any other Pokemon, I think that's a good thing to address in this suspect. Drifloon is NOT like any other Pokemon we've had to deal with because, as opposed to boosting to sweep teams, it relies on bulk and utility to sweep teams. In such an offensive metagame, it's no wonder people are annoyed by Drifloon's Recycle stall tactics - it's something the metagame has never seen before and it's going to take some time to adapt to. Attempting to compare Drifloon to previous suspects is going to lead us astray in terms of making a decision, as no comparison we can make will be accurate enough to make an argument off of.This thing was barely used and like C+ less than 6 months ago and is now being suspected with barely any significant changes to the meta. How... the fuck does that happen?
I hate talking about this mon', it literally can't be compared accurately to any other Pokemon in the LC tier D:
the bolded parts are what gets me. No, LO Yanma wasn't anywhere near the threat level in early XY. It was just a good set. In fact before the Hypnosis set was even discovered, keeping Yanma was largely the majority opinion. That "just run resttalk mons" is such a shit argument, considering how 1) much of a momentum sink resttalk sets are (especially so in a previously hyper offensive metagame) and 2) you shouldn't have to specifically have checks on a team for one single set. That's the difference. Both Yanma and Drifloon are fairly diverse. CM Drifloon absolutely stomps most teams that only carry a traditional Drifloon check, while teams that don't carry a standard Drifloon check at ALL are "poor teambuilding." This is different from the "you need to check a specific carvanha set" because carvanha only runs 1 set anyway, whereas Drifloon runs a multitude. ANyway, going back to your point, you completely misunderstood why Yanma was banned. It was only suspected because it was a terrifying late game sweeper with LO good coverage and Speed Boost. However it was terrifying in the same way that Carvanha was terrifying. Once Hypnosis started getting more popular, and started generating free momentum for things, otherwise really bad Pokemon started being ran. Things like Vital Spirit Elekid were getting popular, as was Goomy. This is the main parallel I draw with Drifloon. Drifloon grants free momentum whenever you can successfully start your shit, and this can easily happen on some Pokemon that are just so common in the metagame: Mienfoo, Diglett, Vullaby, non cm Spritzee, Gothita, Ferroseed, Snivy, etc. You typically have to run Chinchou / Porygon or some sort of meme pokemon that is only really on your team to specifically deal with Drifloon, such as Amaura or Larvitar. Just from my experiences laddering, this sort of teambuilding that is prevalent is so stale its ridiculous. Half the teams are just Drifloon / Mienfoo / Abra / Chinchou / filler / filler, and thats not even including the team that vubon spread around. Yeah, you can run some cool stuff in metagames, you can always run cool stuff in literally every metagame. There hasn't been a single Pokemon that is so broken that it just makes meme sets nad meme teams unviable. Fuck I came up with Chople Amaura and won tons of games with it in Misdreavus meta, when Gligar didn't even exist and Meditite and Missy both beat Amaura.Drifloon is similar to banned Pokemon mechanically.
It looks like there's a split on whether this is worth considering for Drifloon's ban, so I'll just go through the key points.
A major factor in Yanma's ban was its Hypnosis set, which, like Drifloon, was a support set relying on status. The difference is that Yanma had a Life Orb Speed Boost set that was just as crucial. If it was just the Hypnosis set, then Yanma could be easily checked with RestTalk users. Not so much when most of these RestTalk users were 2HKOed by a Life Orb set. It also went the other way around; checks like Archen that could deal with the Life Orb set were shut down by an accurate Hypnosis.
It's pretty clear why an equivalent offensive Drifloon set does not exist. On top of its average offensive stats, Drifloon's most powerful STAB moves require it to not have an item or its opponent to not be statused. In addition, although Drifloon does have several unique sets, they do not take advantage of each other to the extent that Life Orb and Hypnosis Yanma did.
Drifloon is unfun to play against.
I can't really argue against the claim that Drifloon is unfun for the same reason why this question isn't asked anymore in suspect tests. If you think Drifloon is unfun, then there isn't much else to say; it doesn't matter whether it's because Drifloon gave off a bad first impression, or you really liked an early ORAS team, or eww madokooties. I personally feel Trubbish is unfun because it reminds me of trash's rengar in league. That doesn't mean we should ban Trubbish; it means I should ban rengar when I play with trash. Although discussions about whether a Pokemon is broken or uncompetitive are subjective enough to leave room for debate, they are still grounded in facts; that's why we can look at future suspects and try to compare them to previously banned Pokemon or current key threats.
I just don't think it's a good idea to base whether we ban a Pokemon on whether a theoretical metagame without this Pokemon might be more fun; my theorymonning abilities in early ORAS certainly didn't notify me of Recycle Drifloon becoming a top tier threat.
I've had 10 losses in my 52-battles run, and 70% of those losses were due to hax (with the 30% being me legitimately fucking up or losing to dumb shit). I don't think I've lost to Drifloon itself once.ill post something very simple
i had two losses along my admittedly very short ladder run, and both of them came vs me literally doing everything in my power to stop drifloon with no avail. the problem with loon is that you can run 2-3 "counters" and yet it can still stall the shit out of them without you able to do anything. i'm very pro ban loon at this point and if anyone who has actually laddered this round or played recently thinks differently, i'm very sceptical of their agenda.
I've waited a few days and slept on this, but I really do need to get this off my chest: the flowchart cannot show something is broken. The flowchart is not based on anything in game nor is not a guide by which we are required make decisions. It was (and is) one person's illustration which demonstrated banning patterns and logic of the past, but it is inherently argumentative and debatable, not objective and certainly not a point to which all in this debate must agree to.As the flowchart quite clearly shows, Drifloon is a BROKEN Pokemon. We must remove this threat as soon as possible, as the flowchart says we should. If we follow the power of the flowchart, we will come into a renaissance of Little Cup tiering, and we'll have the tier the flowchart has always known we deserved. Thank you flowcharts, if only you were around for the Diglett suspects.
Well said Mr. Trump.i'm very pro ban loon at this point and if anyone who has actually laddered this round or played recently thinks differently, i'm very sceptical of their agenda.
i get that i probably came off a little brash in my previous posts, but i don't know why that warrants you questioning my competency as a player. nevertheless, i will bite. no, i did not just spam knock off vs loon. i used an assortment of ponyta, chinchou, scarf pawniard, encore cottonee, torchic, and ss tirtouga. it was an issue for me because those mons are still all very shaky checks, yes even chinchou. once it gets in safely, drifloon can threaten with either wow or acro, all while having sub to ease any prediction problems it might have. recycle just means that it can essentially endlessly stall things out after this as long as the mon before it can't ohko. if you take a break to heal with a mon like porygon or ponyta to try and keep up, you just gave loon a free sub from where it can just continue to take advantage of. and that's just it. these checks that you guys continue to reference simply can't keep up with loon. unless you're running resttalk chou, chou will eventually fall. ponyta is sr weak, has to avoid knock off all game, and simply isn't bulky enough to reliably counter loon. from there, any physical checks have to risk getting burnt in order to do their job, which neuters them the rest of the game. ill give you magnemite, that is a very solid check, counter even.Fatty can I ask what counters you had for Drifloon? And what did you do to try and stop Drifloon, attack it with Knock Off forever? I haven't lost to Drifloon since it first appeared, using Chinchou / Mag / Pony / Porygon + Corphish/Honedge/Fletch/ect to beat it. I'm really curious how it was an issue for you outside of being an annoying pokemon to play against. And I'm asking this simply because I don't know where I stand on the issue anymore.
Semi hastily writing this, so pardon. I don't think I ever insulted you as a player, though I see how it can appear that I did. I assure you that wasn't my intent as I know you're a very solid player and probably better than me in literally every meta. I do still find it worthy of skeptic the fact that you claimed to only lose to Drifloon and then state anyone who doesn't want it banned is pushing a person agenda. What I was really trying to do is get insight from someone who I have interacted with a grand total of three times while playing LC for like 2 and a half years now or something. I was completely grasping at straws for what you did to be suffering from a plague of Drifloons, and since I don't know you pretty much at all, I went for what has been largely the common approach to fighting Drifloon and failing. Sorry for upsetting you though, as again, that's not what I was aiming for.i get that i probably came off a little brash in my previous posts, but i don't know why that warrants you questioning my competency as a player. nevertheless, i will bite. no, i did not just spam knock off vs loon. i used an assortment of ponyta, chinchou, scarf pawniard, encore cottonee, torchic, and ss tirtouga. it was an issue for me because those mons are still all very shaky checks, yes even chinchou. once it gets in safely, drifloon can threaten with either wow or acro, all while having sub to ease any prediction problems it might have. recycle just means that it can essentially endlessly stall things out after this as long as the mon before it can't ohko. if you take a break to heal with a mon like porygon or ponyta to try and keep up, you just gave loon a free sub from where it can just continue to take advantage of. and that's just it. these checks that you guys continue to reference simply can't keep up with loon. unless you're running resttalk chou, chou will eventually fall. ponyta is sr weak, has to avoid knock off all game, and simply isn't bulky enough to reliably counter loon. from there, any physical checks have to risk getting burnt in order to do their job, which neuters them the rest of the game. ill give you magnemite, that is a very solid check, counter even.
some of the checks that you reference though, i don't rly know where you're going with them. corphish really has no business switching into loon, niether does fletch. they both don't like repeated acros and are completely neutered by wow. porygon also has a very tough time handling loon, simply just being prone to being stalled out.
lastly, i find it very hard to believe that you've never lost to drifloon lol. you are one hell of a player bro. if you've never lost to it, why do you then state that you don't know where you stand on the issue? it seems to me like you very clearly wouldn't think it was broken, right?