Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

[Lavos]

I don't understand what the purpose of a D Rank would be when the stuff you mention (Alakazam, Piloswine, Sandslash) are C Rank material. GSC has too small a pool of things that can be used to any success for us to add another tier. If it belongs in D Rank, it probably doesn't have a competitive niche in the first place. At least Zam can Encore stuff and Piloswine can CurseRoar. Given the established parameters for C rank, what's your example of a D Rank Pokemon?

Additionally, petitioning for Quagsire to C. It needs too much support to be effective, dies to more stuff than a drummer should, and it's not a threat that one would generally take into account when teambuilding which is a major parameter of B. When I slap Skarm on a team, it's to check Drumlax/Wak/Champ, not Quag. I haven't ever seen the standard BD set work. Yeah tanking electrics is cool but it doesn't do anything in return. Only niche it seems to fulfill is second-rate boost recipient on dedicated BP teams.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

There probably is room for +/- subranks here, and there are plenty o' pokemon who can go to a subrank. Kanga does look a bit doofy in B, but Muk seems fine, I think.
Oh and I do see Quagsire in C, maybe D. I've tried it before and since belly drum takes half of your damned health away (and Quaggy doesn't have good bulk), yeah, you get the point. Waste of a slot. Coulda put Suicune there but I was too lazy to. Dis fing does learn curse, so it's basically a poor mans snorlax because it don't got the bulk that Snorlax got. It survives a 999 attack earthquake from Charizard, but Snorlax does the same fing, and better. Now for the Snorlax calc, we're assuming it uses curse twice, so that.
+6 Charizard Earthquake vs. Quagsire: 267-314 (67.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (technically a OHKO because the Belly Drum "recoil")
+6 Charizard Earthquake vs. +2 Snorlax: 157-185 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm pretty sure we get the point now, yes?

 

[Mr.E]

New tiers: I dunno what the hell actually changed because it's been forever since I looked at it but I feel bad having Blissey, Heracross, and maybe Jolteon/Espeon in the feeble company of stuff that is mostly far more niche. I don't take half of B seriously as it is, Lavos. Offensively, I only keep Heracross in mind (i.e. always use at least one of Zapdos or Skarm, not counting other super-niche answers) and then generally acknowledge the existence of the other half I do take seriously just to make sure by the time I finish building a team I don't just autolose to Espeon passing a +1 to something, or whatever. I don't give a remote shit about Dragonite or any Drummer not named Snorlax.

Otherwise, it's cool minus me looking through the pokedex and finding some random "C" mon I think is at least worth mentioning on the same random level as stuff like Sandslash and Piloswine. (But I liked Snorlax as the sole S-rank and bumping each tier down a notch. Because Snorlax starts with S, you dolts.) and fuck subranks

 

[Lavos]

Mr.E, I'm curious what parts of B you do take seriously, other than Blissey/Hera/Jolt/Espy. I would also put Rhydon, Tentacruel, and possibly Charizard up there as stuff I consider, like when building with Thunder Zapdos I'll make sure there's something else to dissuade Tenta in case of missing Thunders and/or losing speed ties. Rest of B tier kinda sucks.

Jynx should probably move up. LK + scares out Zapdos makes it worth considering. Damage isn't too bad either. Nothing in OU is used to Ice attacks that actually hurt, so...

also @ the other poster, no one gives a f*k about zard vs quag calcs.

 

[froggy25]

I'm pretty sure we get the point now, yes?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DramaticallyMissingThePoint

 

[Borat]

Otherwise, it's cool minus me looking through the pokedex and finding some random "C" mon I think is at least worth mentioning on the same random level as stuff like Sandslash and Piloswine

can you actually find "some random c mon on the same level of sandslash"? that argument doesn't hold water without a concrete example.

dodrio and victreebel or whatever sitting atop the remaining ass-level pokemon are really inferior versions of everything already listed.

 

[Jorgen]

Maybe I'm just a sucker for mons that serve concrete defensive purposes. Pgon2 and Espy have instant recovery to make them decent mixed walls, especially against the Gar/Egg/Nido trio that can be really difficult for a lot of teams to handle. Kanga and Muk are tanky but have trouble explicitly coming in on anything, so it's harder to get them to do work, and as such they just seem more gimmicky/niche/harder to fit on a team.

 

[Borat]

i'm a bigger fan of results. who cares if a pokemon can fit onto more teams if those teams suck anyway. muk might not be super consistent game to game, but there are definitely quite a few teams where muk would just run over.

how many teams does smeargle fit on?

 

[Mr.E]

can you actually find "some random c mon on the same level of sandslash"? that argument doesn't hold water without a concrete example.

dodrio and victreebel or whatever sitting atop the remaining ass-level pokemon are really inferior versions of everything already listed.

Well if I had actually wasted my time looking then I would've just put them down instead of what I wrote there, no?

But according to my list of "shit I have a greater than 0% chance of ever putting on a team," the answer is Slowbro. And Nidoqueen, which doesn't count because it's already misspelled in A-rank.

 

[Jorgen]

i'm a bigger fan of results. who cares if a pokemon can fit onto more teams if those teams suck anyway. muk might not be super consistent game to game, but there are definitely quite a few teams where muk would just run over.

how many teams does smeargle fit on?

Fair enough on the Smeargle point, but his role is sort of exceptional; he makes AgiPass tick. Muk isn't a similar sort of lynchpin, so it's harder to tell whether those "don't suck" Muk teams really are better off with him than without. From there I default to number of teams he comfortably fits on, presuming that they're all reasonably competitive, and it just seems kinda low imo.

I'm not convinced Muk runs train the way he's cracked up to be able to. He gets roughly 50% of games with favorable matchups (vs. stalls that don't bother with a Ground and vs. offenses that lean on Steelix for Ground things), and in those favorable matchups he's more of a pest than a mauler, with what he accomplishes tending to be forcing an awkward trade (e.g., Zapdos for Muk). Granted, that's a really nice thing to accomplish, but it's not like, say, Egg doesn't already kinda do that. It's a subtle enough advantage that it seems dubious whether it's worth the inconsistency or the lack of secondary roles.

@ Quagsire: He can work. I've seen him do work several times, both against and for me. Having ample opportunity to fly right into Electrics' faces does that for you. Definitely a solid mon I can put on a team and not have it feel like a strained gimmick, which feels like B rank to me. Fblast-Pursuit Ttar is sorta necessary support though, to generate play against both the Egg and Skarm nuisances.

@ Slowbro: Was waiting for somebody to bring him up, actually. Feels usable for sure. My main complaint is I'm not really sure why I would bother when Twave Starmie exists. Growl? Also Nidoqueen is a sorry excuse for a Nido replacement, iirc IB fails to 3HKO Zapdos and EQ can't 4HKO a Lax with Spikes (it doesn't even guarantee a Spikes-free 5HKO). If you use Nidoqueen, it's to use it with Moonlight to tank Hidden Powers forever. Or to... Charm down Machamps I guess? Pretty weak justifications to use a mon imo.

Thoughts on Kanga? And am I picking on Muk and Kanga too much when Tenta and Clefable are in a similar boat?

 

[Borat]

being a crappy egg doesn't justify his b status any less.

having an unpredictable explosion is probably the main reason to run muk. you're not sweeping teams with him, that's not the point. muk has literally the best "explosion" in the game.

slowbro might be on the same "power level" of slash, but it's a shitty meganium. do we really care about a shitty meganium? being in a different niche from all the "real ou" mons is the reason why slash and zam gets mentioned and ursaring is ignored.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Well, Golem has a slightly stronger explosion, but the difference between 105 and 110 is almost nothing. The only thing it doesn't kill in one hit is Steelix after 2 curses. I remember using it before, and it was a solid member of my team.

 

[Borat]

nobody's talking about power. it's the ability to hit a wide variety of targets.

 

[Jorgen]

Eh, this convo's running out of steam. I'm just gonna go build a few Muk teams and see how I feel about them; I've done a bad job of it in the past which probably colors my perception of him.

 

[Borat]

his only job is to get off explosion on something. where stuff like egg/gengar can "only" hit electrics should the enemy choose to sac them, muk has an explosion that hits just about anything. he's not meant to sweep with curse, so if that's your goal he's gonna suck major ass. curse is there to land an explosion on miltanks, and to scare electrics should you choose to explode on something else.

 

[jaQ]

why run curse on a boom purpose muk when you lose coverage? Would rather see like sludge bomb, thunder, giga drain, explosion to wreck the rocks and open teams up quicker. hit and move. I only tried muk a few times and dumped him so idk just seems good on paper.

lols omastar walls your curse+fb version. best hydro pump in gsc lol. he's not as good as scizor? sandslash? =(. jk idc.

 

[Borat]

i don't really understand what you're saying. muk needs curse/sludge bomb to be threatening to stuff like snorlax/zapdos/suicune, but by definition you can't sweep with sludge bomb in 90% of cases (see: tentacruel). muk is a utility explosion by design, not by choice.

he's actually pretty bad on paper, and better in practice.

 

[jaQ]

If any of those switch in to his sludge bomb an explosion would finish them off. maybe not suicune at 100%, but I'm sure there will be an opportunity to boom fast. don't see the need to curse.

 

[Borat]

exactly. curse allows you to PICK who to explode on. if you don't want to explode on zapdos, you can scare it off by cursing. same with suicune and co.

 

[Mr.E]

But according to my list of "shit I have a greater than 0% chance of ever putting on a team," the answer is Slowbro. And Nidoqueen, which doesn't count because it's already misspelled in A-rank.

I remembered yesterday at work that Blastoise might fit as well. I was strongly considering using it during some late week in SPL, as a Rapid Spinner that isn't weak to Pursuit (Starmie) or reamed by Earthquake (Tentacruel) while still providing the typical bulky water defensive utility. That was before I thought to myself "dude this team is horrible I'm literally fucking using Blastoise" and scratched it and ended up using a team that's about the same as my usual Explosion-heavy shenanigans. But I did consider it!

 

[Jorgen]

Blastoise is OK I guess. I think the fact that you scrapped that team explicitly because of Blastoise, though, is testament to how marginal its niche really is.

 

[Borat]

blastoise is ass. tentacruel is the 5th best spinner. and when you're the 5th best at anything...

how did cloyster not fit all of that criteria?

 

[Jorgen]

Probably something along the lines of "I really need a spinner, but also want something that covers Tyranitar somewhat decently".

In which case Donphan is still better. Unless you also need something to Phaze Vaporeon on top of all that, but geez, what kind of garbage team needs Blastoise as its savior that badly?

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

I would say a team full of really bad pokes like hitmonchan, farfetch'd, unown, etc. Either that or someone who doesn't know how to GSC.

 

[Cheryl.]

What makes Kangaskhan B rank when Snorlax is around? Also, I think you guys could make a D rank to put the mons that are worse than C rank mons in, like Moltres, Scizor, or Urasring.