Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

[Jorgen]

Curse+Roar+Sub.

I like the DPP rankings' idea where you try to D-rank things sparingly, generally as a way to point out mons that newbies love to use but don't exactly have competitive merit at higher levels (e.g., Electivire). Kingdra might be GSC's Electivire, idk.

 

[Royal Flush]

I'm not sure if this actually fits for GSC nowadays (the trashmons loved by n00bs), because today you have a thousand of guides, articles and team stereotypes. New kids will see the offensive standard team and try to git gud with that. Back at GSC prime where we didn't have any real guidelines besides "curselax is good" - or going a bit further, we didn't have competitive knowledge in general - maybe it would fit.

 

[SoulBoundX]

So because im new here and my threads get locked because idk how to post in the right place im just going to post here because this is actually an appropriate thread to post what i have to say.

So it's my understanding that the BL tier is a tier where a pokemon who isn't good enough for ou, but too good for uu is placed. So I have a question, why is charizard in BL? Unless every player on pokemon online is complete shit, (i've played almost every person on there and taken games off of all of them) then charizard is DEFINATELY OU . In a team with good synergy, charizard is a beast. Charizard doesn't just contribute on my team every now and then (like a pokemon like vaporeon does on a team like the ones borat has posted) but it contributes something almost every single game and can sweep pretty consistently too . If a pokemon like vaporeon gets to be OU then so should charizard. Charizard is a beast in the ou tier so why is he not in there? I would love for this to be explained to me and i would also love to battle anyone who has doubts about my skill level in this gen. But im just asking.

PS. What would I have to do to change his tier?

 

[Cheryl.]

So because im new here and my threads get locked because idk how to post in the right place im just going to post here because this is actually an appropriate thread to post what i have to say.

So it's my understanding that the BL tier is a tier where a pokemon who isn't good enough for ou, but too good for uu is placed. So I have a question, why is charizard in BL? Unless every player on pokemon online is complete shit, (i've played almost every person on there and taken games off of all of them) then charizard is DEFINATELY OU . In a team with good synergy, charizard is a beast. Charizard doesn't just contribute on my team every now and then (like a pokemon like vaporeon does on a team like the ones borat has posted) but it contributes something almost every single game and can sweep pretty consistently too . If a pokemon like vaporeon gets to be OU then so should charizard. Charizard is a beast in the ou tier so why is he not in there? I would love for this to be explained to me and i would also love to battle anyone who has doubts about my skill level in this gen. But im just asking.

PS. What would I have to do to change his tier?[/quote Well, Charizard has difficulty setting up and is outsped by some common pokes, also in gen 6 if people use a pokemon in BL a lot, it may rise up to OU.

 

[Karxrida]

How Gen VI tiering works means nothing here BrandonBeast.

SoulBoundX I don't think you can change Zard's tier placement, as all old Gen tiers are set in stone.

 

[SoulBoundX]

There is no pokemon that outspeeds charizard that can't be taken care of without too much trouble though. You could name a weakness for almost every poke in ou. Him being outsped by a few pokes really doesn't make him BL in my mind. Something like zapdos or raikou have never been a problem for my charizard team.

 

[SoulBoundX]

How Gen VI tiering works means nothing here BrandonBeast.

SoulBoundX I don't think you can change Zard's tier placement, as all old Gen tiers are set in stone.

They shouldn't be. Games evolve even over very long periods of time. We shouldn't just let the tiers stay "outdated" . I'm not sure if there is anything else about the tier list that is outdated but charizard's placement in bl definately is from my point of view. I don't think charizard should stay in BL just because someone didn't know how to make the optimal team with him, or had the optimal team but didn't know how to use it correctly. Whatever the case, the team i have charizard on is definately an ou team that works really well with him on it and works well because he is on it. And it can most likely be improved even further.

 

[Jellicent]

They shouldn't be. Games evolve even over very long periods of time. We shouldn't just let the tiers stay "outdated" . I'm not sure if there is anything else about the tier list that is outdated but charizard's placement in bl definately is from my point of view. I don't think charizard should stay in BL just because someone didn't know how to make the optimal team with him, or had the optimal team but didn't know how to use it correctly. Whatever the case, the team i have charizard on is definately an ou team that works really well with him on it and works well because he is on it. And it can most likely be improved even further.

You can make a competitive OU team without needing 6 OU Pokemon, so having some competitive teams with a certain Pokemon doesn't mean it should jump up a tier. OU status is based on usage, a sort of threat list for what you're likely to run into. Charizard isn't super popular, so it's not OU. That doesn't mean you'll never run into it or that you shouldn't prepare for it, but it does mean it's not overused (OU).

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

So because im new here and my threads get locked because idk how to post in the right place im just going to post here because this is actually an appropriate thread to post what i have to say.

So it's my understanding that the BL tier is a tier where a pokemon who isn't good enough for ou, but too good for uu is placed. So I have a question, why is charizard in BL? Unless every player on pokemon online is complete shit, (i've played almost every person on there and taken games off of all of them) then charizard is DEFINATELY OU . In a team with good synergy, charizard is a beast. Charizard doesn't just contribute on my team every now and then (like a pokemon like vaporeon does on a team like the ones borat has posted) but it contributes something almost every single game and can sweep pretty consistently too . If a pokemon like vaporeon gets to be OU then so should charizard. Charizard is a beast in the ou tier so why is he not in there? I would love for this to be explained to me and i would also love to battle anyone who has doubts about my skill level in this gen. But im just asking.

PS. What would I have to do to change his tier?

Very quickly. In ou it's c because of the extremely specific support that bd zard requires. Compared to quag which requires less specific support. It also only has really one viable set and it pretty frail and killed by faster things such as starmie zapdos and raikou for example, so it's very specific in its role but does some things that most other bders can't do such as kill skarm it is to specific for a move up. Also lax is more reliable then zard as well.

 

[SoulBoundX]

Very quickly. In ou it's c because of the extremely specific support that bd zard requires. Compared to quag which requires less specific support. It also only has really one viable set and it pretty frail and killed by faster things such as starmie zapdos and raikou for example, so it's very specific in its role but does some things that most other bders can't do such as kill skarm it is to specific for a move up. Also lax is more reliable then zard as well.

Yeah, it's frail but it shouldn't be staying out against things that can hit it hard in the first place unless the opponent is paralyzed or something and u can kill it.

And I understand ou stands for over used and he's not over used at all , and the people who do put him on their team don't know how to use him, but i see tiers as what pokemon has the most potential. For example, if no one used snorlax but me, i think it would be rediculous to put him in uu. I used to be a pro fighting game player, and the way tiers work in fighting games is not by popularity but my character potential and that's how i thought pokemon tiers worked as well despite it's wording

 

[Cheryl.]

Yeah, it's frail but it shouldn't be staying out against things that can hit it hard in the first place unless the opponent is paralyzed and u can kill it.

And I understand ou stands for over used and he's not over used at all , and the people who do put him on their team don't know how to use him, but i see tiers as what pokemon has the most potential. For example, if no one used snorlax but me, i think it would be rediculous to put him in uu. I used to be a pro fighting game player, and the way tiers work in fighting games is not by popularity but my character potential and that's how i thought pokemon tiers worked as well despite it's wording

Well Pokemon isn't Street Fighter

 

[SoulBoundX]

Well Pokemon isn't Street Fighter

Lol. I played mortal kombat 9 compeitively and the first few months of injustice. I just play smash for fun now. But you're right , pokemon isn't like a fighting game, it's more like a much simpler version of chess. But anyway, all my point was is that if a pokemon like charizard can be a star on an ou team that can win consistently then he should be ou. I thought putting him in BL was underrating him. I feel like some people look at tier list and see someone like charizard in bl and pass him up for another poke labeled ou. He's very viable and people who have played me have seen that. I think he should be put in OU to show that he's a very viable poke in that tier. I mean, what are tier lists for .

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

Lol. I played mortal kombat 9 compeitively and the first few months of injustice. I just play smash for fun now. But you're right , pokemon isn't like a fighting game, it's more like a much simpler version of chess. But anyway, all my point was is that if a pokemon like charizard can be a star on an ou team that can win consistently then he should be ou. I thought putting him in BL was underrating him. I feel like some people look at tier list and see someone like charizard in bl and pass him up for another poke labeled ou. He's very viable and people who have played me have seen that. I think he should be put in OU to show that he's a very viable poke in that tier. I mean, what are tier lists for .

I mean I can understand where you are coming from. I do love zard, mostly because of its ability to break skarmbliss. The thing I am not a fan of is just all of the support that he needs, screens and paralysis support as well. But he is still one of the better bl mons and he only is in c just because of the support needed. But overall, still a solid wallbreaker.

 

[Cheryl.]

I mean I can understand where you are coming from. I do love zard, mostly because of its ability to break skarmbliss. The thing I am not a fan of is just all of the support that he needs, screens and paralysis support as well. But he is still one of the better bl mons and he only is in c just because of the support needed. But overall, still a solid wallbreaker.

zard is B rank lol

 

[SoulBoundX]

I mean I can understand where you are coming from. I do love zard, mostly because of its ability to break skarmbliss. The thing I am not a fan of is just all of the support that he needs, screens and paralysis support as well. But he is still one of the better bl mons and he only is in c just because of the support needed. But overall, still a solid wallbreaker.

I find screens to be good in theory but not as good in practice. When i was first experimenting with charizard i ofcourse tried screens so he could take hits and set up. But you learn that there's usually always something better that can be used in reflect's or light screens place. And the beauty of belly drum is that you only need one turn to set up and if you're charizard you're fast enough to kill everything in your path before it can hit you so what do you need screens for in the first place? Paralysis and spikes I find are the most important keys charizard needs to be very dangerous. Mostly paralysis. Toxic works well too to wear down pokemon charizard can't kill in one hit. The support charizard needs to wreck teams is not as hard to acheive as most people try to make it out to be.

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

I find screens to be good in theory but not as good in practice. When i was first experimenting with charizard i ofcourse tried screens so he could take hits and set up. But you learn that there's usually always something better that can be used in reflect's or light screens place. And the beauty of belly drum is that you only need one turn to set up and if you're charizard you're fast enough to kill everything in your path before it can hit you so what do you need screens for in the first place? Paralysis and spikes I find are the most important keys charizard needs to be very dangerous. Mostly paralysis. Toxic works well too to wear down pokemon charizard can't kill in one hit. The support charizard needs to wreck teams is not as hard to acheive as most people try to make it out to be.

Yeah screens are important but I also don't focus on them most of the time.

 

[Shadow_Sneak]

My mistake I remembered the old list. On charizard being in c.

 

[Ortheore]

Yeah js that Fire Blast hits a fair few things very hard, means Zard is able to find setup opportunities thanks to its offensive presence. Like if it manages to come in on something like Skarm without eating a Toxic or the like the opponent is in a really shit position- do you let Skarm die for nothing or do you risk getting swept? Screens seems like way too much support, like you're bending over backwards to support Zard here.

That said, while Fire Blast is threatening to many things, it's not really a huge nuke that'll break open walls since Lax tanks it and resists are plentiful, while its unboosted attacking power is pathetic. That means it is fairly dependent on BD to put in work which is obv really exploitable, while there's still heaps of stuff that can potentially not die and cause Zard trouble. Personally I'm fine with leaving things as they are, not that it matters too much since BL isn't really played and even then I'd look to Mt Silver's list (or make my own heheheheh). Idk if it's different but iirc they used to play bl and chances are their tier list is more accurate so w/e

Also js that SoulBoundX's idea of tiering is better suited to old gens than anything usage based. After all, it wasn't until gen 4 that they started using usage stats for tiering afaik

 

[SoulBoundX]

Yeah js that Fire Blast hits a fair few things very hard, means Zard is able to find setup opportunities thanks to its offensive presence. Like if it manages to come in on something like Skarm without eating a Toxic or the like the opponent is in a really shit position- do you let Skarm die for nothing or do you risk getting swept? Screens seems like way too much support, like you're bending over backwards to support Zard here.

That said, while Fire Blast is threatening to many things, it's not really a huge nuke that'll break open walls since Lax tanks it and resists are plentiful, while its unboosted attacking power is pathetic. That means it is fairly dependent on BD to put in work which is obv really exploitable, while there's still heaps of stuff that can potentially not die and cause Zard trouble. Personally I'm fine with leaving things as they are, not that it matters too much since BL isn't really played and even then I'd look to Mt Silver's list (or make my own heheheheh). Idk if it's different but iirc they used to play bl and chances are their tier list is more accurate so w/e

Also js that SoulBoundX's idea of tiering is better suited to old gens than anything usage based. After all, it wasn't until gen 4 that they started using usage stats for tiering afaik

Bd is sort of exploitable but the ideal situation you're aiming for is a situation where your opponent is forced to let you belly drum while there is nothing they can do about it and then sweep. Whether it be forcing them to rest or sending charizard out against a pokemon that is paralyzed or slower than him that he can take atleast one hit from. Belly drum, take the hit, sweep. You wanna send charizard out to do work late game most of the time where everything is a bit weakened or has some kind of status problem. And a rule I really try to live by with my team is never let charizard get a status condition like paralysis or poison or sleep. Avoid at all costs (but not lieterally at all cost). Because once that happens charizard becomes so much worse. But ofcourse there are some situations where he should be the one to take the status and not someone else. What I think about during battle is winning above all else, but a secondary thought i think of from the beginning of the battle is "what will cause the most trouble for charizard?" And try to take that pokemon out with explosion or put it to sleep or something. The whole match im trying to win but also set up a situation for charizard to sweep. And it works well. And like you said , not only can it sweep a team but also threatens stuff like skarmory right off the bat. Charizard is very over looked I think. A super solid pokemon with weaknesses but no major weaknesses in the game.

And yeah, that way of tiering probably would be better since not alot of people even play this gen anymore

 

[Borat]

charizard's in the middle of b. what's the issue here?

being in bl vs ou is rather inconsequential, since there's no bl metagame for gsc. you'd need a rather unanimous vote to move stuff in and out of ou. viability ranking IS based on power, not usage. a big difference between b and a is the flexibility of the pokemon. just about everything in b is one-dimensional, and just about everything in a is two dimensional. the few one-dimensional things in a are because it's literally the best thing in the game at what it does (e.g. skarm as physical wall).

you're not explaining very clearly why charizard is or isn't good. he's a one trick pony, not much to figure out. just because a pokemon can work doesn't automatically make him ou or a-quality. charizard is nowhere near A, but humor me for a minute. what's this "optimal" charizard team you speak of?

just because you win a game with charizard, doesn't mean you win a game BECAUSE of charizard. there's a big difference. the games win because of charizard are way too far and few for it to be anything other than "situational".

shadowsneak: there's no way you're arguing quagsire is non-situational where charizard is.

 

[SoulBoundX]

charizard's in the middle of b. what's the issue here?

being in bl vs ou is rather inconsequential, since there's no bl metagame for gsc. you'd need a rather unanimous vote to move stuff in and out of ou. viability ranking IS based on power, not usage. a big difference between b and a is the flexibility of the pokemon. just about everything in b is one-dimensional, and just about everything in a is two dimensional. the few one-dimensional things in a are because it's literally the best thing in the game at what it does (e.g. skarm as physical wall).

you're not explaining very clearly why charizard is or isn't good. he's a one trick pony, not much to figure out. just because a pokemon can work doesn't automatically make him ou or a-quality. charizard is nowhere near A, but humor me for a minute. what's this "optimal" charizard team you speak of?

just because you win a game with charizard, doesn't mean you win a game BECAUSE of charizard. there's a big difference. the games win because of charizard are way too far and few for it to be anything other than "situational".

shadowsneak: there's no way you're arguing quagsire is non-situational where charizard is.

I listed the team in another thread that got locked. But anyway the team i use is sorta similar to one of yours but not really. Like i said it can further be improved but im js its the best chaizard i've seen or played with . Still experimenting.

Raikou- hp water, thunderbolt, roar, rest .

Been thinking of changing to zapdos. But idk

Steelix- explosion, rock slide, earth quake, roar

Snorlax- lk, double edge, rest, curse

Exeggutor- stun spore, substitute, leech seed, explode

Jorgen told me this was a shitty move set and not having a stab attack would hurt me eventually, but this works for what i need it to do. It forces switches and makes the oppenent play predictable in some situations which gives me the advantage.

Cloyster- toxic, explosion, surf, spikes.

Charizard- earth quake, fireblast, rock slide, bd

This is the team i've been running charizard on with good success. I win alot, and the matches i've lost were only because i got outplayed and not because of some team weakness. I haven't ran into any major weaknesses, not sayin that there arent any but i havent ran into them. And the weaknesses i have seen can be played around without too much trouble. Any major problems with this team? Im always looking for criticism to improve.

 

[Isa]

raikou walled by snorlax
steelix walled by mostly anything since you don't run curse and only really threaten things with boom, but let's just call this a suicune switch
snorlax walled by gengar
exeggutor walled by resting normal resists, let's call it a skarmory
cloyster walled by starmie
charizard ripped by raikou


so with a team of raikou/snorlax/starmie/gengar/skarmory/suicune, where several mons are exchangable (call the suicune a cloyster/exeggutor/zapdos, the gengar a misdreavus...) you just get walled to hell and back and the only way for you win beyond ridiculous hax is to use zard to wear down raikou, force it to rest, hope it's not STalk, explode on starmie, kill the gengar so it cant boom/thunder you...and THEN set up drumlax and hope the raikou doesn't roll thunder(bolt), or that the opposing lax isn't lovely kissing you, etc.

you have the common offensive boom core so obv. you won't do THAT bad, but you run poor movesets on two mons, and the charizard isn't essential either, any offensive mon goes in the last slot.

you have ways to go.

 

[Borat]

yeah see i don't see charizard contributing anything. after the initial surge provided by steelix/snorlax/egg/cloyster, charizard coming in and saying "hey im on this team too" doesn't make him anymore ou. you can run machamp, nidoking, marowak, vaporeon, espeon, dragonite, etc all in charizard's place and have an equal/superior team. you can probably even leave it blank and play with 5 pokemon and come away with 90% of success.

although i don't disagree with isa's argument approach of blatant theorymoning a counterteam (because a team of raikou/snorlax/starmie/gengar/skarmory/suicune is ass), there's still quite a few issues. having 3 exploders, a snorlax, and an electric is probably the main reason why you're winning games, not charizard.

 

[SoulBoundX]

yeah see i don't see charizard contributing anything. after the initial surge provided by steelix/snorlax/egg/cloyster, charizard coming in and saying "hey im on this team too" doesn't make him anymore ou. you can run machamp, nidoking, marowak, vaporeon, espeon, dragonite, etc all in charizard's place and have an equal/superior team. you can probably even leave it blank and play with 5 pokemon and come away with 90% of success.

although i don't disagree with isa's argument approach of blatant theorymoning a counterteam (because a team of raikou/snorlax/starmie/gengar/skarmory/suicune is ass), there's still quite a few issues. having 3 exploders, a snorlax, and an electric is probably the main reason why you're winning games, not charizard.

Waaaay to much theory fighting going on. I've ran marowak on this team for a little while and didn't like him. Don't like having two grounds. And i've ran vaporeon on everything but this team and she contributes alot less than charizard some times. I guess you two are making great points but... I'm confused about your standards of what makes a pokemon good enough to be in ou. If charizard contributes toward the win on the team then why is his effort not counted as much as someone like raikou? Having a pokemon like piloswine on your team in an ou setting objectively makes your team worse than what it could be. Thats why piloswine belongs in uu. But on that team, charizard's role really can't be replaced with anything that would be "better" objectively. And borat said that you'll rarely win BECAUSE of charizard. Again, if he contributes toward the win at all im winning because of charizard, just like im winning because of raikou or snorlax. Alot of the time charizard takes down over half of the opposing team. Some time its just one pokemon. Some times he just weakens pokemon for another one of mine to kill. Some times he saves my raikou from an earth quake. He scares a certain pokemon away. Etc. if he contributes he contributes. Im just confused about your standards.

 

[Isa]

i dont think i can convince you to change your mind, but i'd like to see some of your winning games so that you can show off your charizard