Power Herb Solar Beam Heatran is very much a thing in OU, as an example. And in faster-paced formats like doubles, the downside isn't nearly as noticeable.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
- Status
It would be a shame. Every time Pokémon introduces a new mechanic and it fails it's specially sad. The essence of Pokémon are the Pokémon itself, and by catching those Pokémon what you get is variety. Variety of types, attacks, stats, natures, designs, recolors (yes, shinies), genetics, abilities... Everything in Pokémon mechanics, or in its core playability we should say, is about variety. It’s what keeps you entertained, catching them all and using them in different ways for battling purposes (or breeding, to get more variety again, which let you use those new Pokémon for battling; one thing leads to another). As I was saying, everytime Game Freak introduces a new mechanic without success, it's detrimental in so many levels it can't be compared with other games from the JRPG genre. Pokémon doesn't have (and to me, it doesn't need either) that story, plot, argument, narrative enfasis, whatever you call it, caracteristic from the JRPG traditional genre. It doesn't have that character development, intriguing plot, main adventure of 50 hours (look at the Tales of series --well, these are ARPG but anyway--, Final Fantasy, Persona...) and that is what, I think, we like about Pokémon. Its superficial simplicity and its concept, which differs from the JRPG standards.
Pokémon, more than any other game from the same genre, needs to refresh its air. It needs to constantly include new things (call it Pokémon, call it mechanics of any sort, like mega evolutions) because it can't afford to use something like a new story as a novelty. Generation VI did well, incredibly well with mega evolutions. Yes some of them are broken, yes the metagame is centralized about mega evolutions (is this bad to begin with? We have had 17 years without megas, it was time for a change in the rules), but they feel new, the feel successful, they changed your mind "oh, now I have to forget some preconceptions and learn". And to me as a player, from a playability perspective it's great. Generation VII includes new Pokémon, includes the Alola forms, it will include new items for sure, but the only mechanic, the only thing that is really new and it's going to add a new rule to the battle system are Z Moves. Of course the metagame will develop, some Pokémon will go up while others will go down, that happens everytime, but in the end we will be playing by the same rules. Of course a game is something more complex than a few mechanics, there's so much to evaluate, gen 5 is considered one of the best if not the best and it didn't include any deep change like the previous generations (holding items, natures, special-physical split, abilities...), and it was one of its biggest flaws. The games were better, different, more rich in content, but the mechanics were the same (at least compared to what i said before, or the actual mega evolutions).
So, I hope, I really hope Z Moves succeed.
Last edited:
I think it's a bit too early to say whether z-moves will succeed or fail. I do agree that not every pokemon might find use for them, as it is a one time thing that forces you to give up another item, but as Pyritie said, if Power Herb Solar Beam Heatran is a thing, anything could happen. And they're not the only one who pointed out that z-moves could find particular use in doubles or VGC, where the games are much more fast paced. In fact I could see them with use in VGC especially, due to the item clause and only using 4 out of your 6 pokemon.
Giving them Mega Evolutions was the perfect fanservice. I really can't see them getting Alolan forms right on the heels of that.
The more I look at Oricorio, the more I love it. It has such an awesome gimmick, you just can't help but be dazzled! It's signature move, it's ability, and the way the bird changes its type is so cool!
Although, based on its model, it looks like it won't be taking part in sky battles(assuming they come back)...
And speaking of gimmicks, we're still getting a whole bunch of em! Aside from the starters, Rockruff, togedemaru, Vikavolt, Bounsweet, and Cutiefly, every Pokémon shown so far has a gimmick or two... And even then, the starters, Rockruff, Bounsweet and Cutiefly have the potential to get one when/if they evolve.
Although, based on its model, it looks like it won't be taking part in sky battles(assuming they come back)...
And speaking of gimmicks, we're still getting a whole bunch of em! Aside from the starters, Rockruff, togedemaru, Vikavolt, Bounsweet, and Cutiefly, every Pokémon shown so far has a gimmick or two... And even then, the starters, Rockruff, Bounsweet and Cutiefly have the potential to get one when/if they evolve.
You know, I don't think the full implication of Z-Moves hit me until this post, and I thank you for that.
Borrowing your Ho-Oh example: How big of a tradeoff would Bloom Doom Ho-Oh be, giving up an item and a moveslot, if it meant you could lure in and OHKO any Kyogre or Primal Kyogre in the game? It's probably not as likely as other cases, but the point remains: How much would be a good idea to give up to utilizing a Z-move as a targeted nuke against a certain threat to your team, or to the metagame in general? Even then, Pokemon who are able to forgo the use of an item make natural candidates for Z-moves, since they can still perform well after dropping their nuke. And if said Pokmon have a fairly wide amount if coverage, I can see then being more popular in roles suited to take out more specific threats to the team in general. And yeah, Z-moves make knocking down walls and bulky pokemon easier, but on the other hand a Z-move taking down a key Stallbreaker could swing the game.
I am actually pretty excited for Z-moves now... They will change the meta like Megas did, but I doubt in the same way, nor do I think they will dominate it as much.
While I'm not arguing Pokemon needs new mechanics to keep fresh, I do want to say that I think in retrospective Gen V works much better having not introduced any major new game mechanics and instead focusing on a story driven experience. Why? Because while at the time I'm sure many would have agreed with you, in retrospect Gen V could be looked at being the last "traditional" Pokemon game. While it used 3D graphics, cosmetically it still resembled the classic games as it still used sprites. It not introducing new mechanics allowed them to be more focused on what mechanics there was in the game, and the story addresses issues which have been hanging over the Pokemon games (and even though it sidelines the animal fighting/slavery issue I feel they addressed it enough that we have a answer as vague as it is). It was the game that was meant to be a grand farewell of the old style of the games, Gen VI not only bringing Pokemon into full 3D but eventually placing it in a new timeline.
Also, can a new mechanic, even as one wildly popular as Mega Evolution, really make up for a bare bones plot? XY I do feel was a necessary step for Pokemon with going into 3D, however the plot was lacking and a mess. The sad thing is I could see potential in the plot and ways a sequel game could have expanded upon it... but alas they never attempted to flesh it out and Z, well, *point to thread title*. The Pokemon World can't just survive on new mechanics, it also needs world building to give it substance and value.
I did actually like the XY plot, but I feel that the pacing wasn't done properly and the characters could have been a bit more 3d (ironic). It did pretty well on having a grand backstory support it, and it did keep up the tradition of the Villains becoming increasingly more dangerous and unhinged. (The goal of the fashion-crazy evil group was genocide using a device powered by draining the life out of a large amount of Pokemon. That's pretty evil.) It had its flaws, sure, but I don't think there was that little to it. I think they did alright with the XY one. Certainly got me hooked once the Plot actually hit. (again, pacing could have been better.)
I'm sorry but Team Flare ruined the plot. If it was, say, Team Galactic doing this, then it'd make sense and actually be scary, but it isn't. It is Team Flare. Team Flare members outside Lysandre + a very small number of others care more about their fashion than their mission. How do I take that seriously at all. They ruin the plot. Although, now that i think about it, we haven't had any information on the S/M evil team pot, which is something I hope it introduced in the next news update. It would be a shame if the evil team got scrapped.
Last edited:
With all the changes going on for SM, the evil team is probably not gonna happen this gen. I personally don't mind. I'll welcome it just like all the other changes. Though that does bring up the question on if there's gonna be a villain at all this time around.
I quite like the Evil Team mechanic, but as long as there is at least some antagonist in S/M I suppose I can do.
I don't mind the evil team, and I sure as hell love villains in general, but at the same time, I don't think every story needs a villain. It's possible we could get some sort of substitute for the evil team. Remember how the professor's assistant was called mysterious? I remember a lot of people on Tumblr thinking that she might be involved with the evil team, or the main villain herself, but that's just speculation. But if none of that happens, then as long as everything else in the game holds up well, I'm fine.
I suppose, I guess I just like, well, a plot line. (I mean it is a JRPG.)
To each their own. I didn't mind the silliness and did actually not take them seriously... Until, you know, The whole "Hey, anyone not in Team Flare? Yeah. We're going to use the ultimate weapon to kill you all." Bombshell was dropped. It was a left turn i didn't see coming and actually liked.
I think this game will be a good experiment to see what the result is if Pokemon decides to stray from its own norm. With seemingly tons of new mechanics, forms, gameplay changes, and whatnot, gamefreak seems to be really shaking things up. Maybe they'll succeed and pave the way for a new kind of Pokemon game that we've never seen before or imagined. They might also just utterly fail, in which case they have the same old classic formula of previous games to fall back on. I would be pretty sad if we've seen the last of gym leaders, the elite four, and villainous teams in their traditional sense, which worries me if sun and moon are a hit.
Surely these new typings so be Z moves will be better competitively and most will also work flavour wise too?
They should work out pretty well competitively, but since there's only one Z-Move per type (afawk. There could be two and it picks based off the higher attack stat.) there doesn't seem to be much for thematic relations between the Pokemon and Z-move.
I'm pretty convinced the substitution of gyms for something else is going to remain (at least in the inmediate future) in the Alola region. I don't pay much attention to this but to be honest I'm somewhat bored of the traditional formula, not in a playability sense, but in the transcurse of things. You know, you always start your adventure inside your mom's house, your father is non-existent, there's a criminal evil team which only differs from one another in the motivations they use as pretext for their actions, they are always the bad guys and you are the hero (that is why Black and White evil team is SO GREAT, by far the best in the series, because they are the only ones who, a priori, are fighting for a cause that seems altruist. Yes, maybe Ghetsis is a bad guy and the entire Plasma Team is being manipulated by him, but the idea of Pokémon being free creatures, not subyugated to the trainer demands is a valid point, and it makes you think about it; are you fighting agaisnt Ghetsis to stop his personal ambitions? Or are you fighting against the ideal of Pokémon being free itself?) You are not the classic hero anymore. In Black 2 and White 2, you see the results of Team Plasma brainwashing. To some people you are the bad guy, you, who tried to put an end to Pokémon freedom. That is what makes Team Plasma so brilliant, instead of revealing themselves as the bad guys, taking other's Pokémon by brute force, they used politics, convinced the people into thinking that way, and finally the citicens themselves get rid of their own Pokémon. The damage is already done, the words have a social impact, you can't stop that way of thinking just by defeating a guy.
III Gen also tried to be different in its own way with little details. For the first time in the Pokémon series your father figure was present, and not only that, he was a gym leader. How is not cool to meet your father in a Pokémon game and knowning that through hard training, one day you will be able to challenge and defeat him. You didn't start your adventure inside your house, instead the first image you had of the game was the trainer inside a truck. Your rival wasn't your rival, she/he was your friend. Later in the story you meet your true rival and he was no more the propotype of badass guy who does the impossible to get in your way, but a delicated, ill child, who sees in you and your strenght a motivation to keep fighting agaisnt both, his illness and his lack of self confidence.
Now Gen VII is doing the same, breaking the preconceptions we had about the games, changing some things we thought were untouchable for others, trying to innovate in some way.
I think one of the reasons Team Plasma worked is that they had a really mundane MO for Pokemon standards. Sure, they wanted to use Reshiram/Zekrom/Kyurem for what they wanted, but it's nothing compared to global-scale ecoterrorism (Aqua/Magma), manipulating time and space (Galactic) and sapping the energy of a legendary Pokemon to cause genocide (Flare). Even compared to Team Rocket who wanted to create their own legendary Pokemon.
Now I know this is pure baseless speculation (and coming in pretty late at that), but I hadn't looked at the leak in detail before and the time evo might be, for lack of a better word, plausible, with the hooded archer, heel wrestler and siren all sharing some dark element. That's all I had ti say on that, on account of that being just a leak, and a rather uncertain one at that.
Other thoughts as I haven't posted here before: Z-moves as we assume them to work should at the very least be viable as replacements to Power Herb Solar Beam and Natural Gift, and who knows what other lures we may see as well as possible missing STAB nukes a la kyuub.
As for the new concepts themselves, I do agree with the thought that GF will take notes based on the sales and other feedback. I just hope future games don't become bloated, so to speak.
CTNC
Doesn't know how to attack
You expect Z moves to work flavorly after Bloom Doom Fire Types were confirmed? Just let me raise my eyebrow at you and repost my post from Tuseday.
Giving them Fire Punch and Aerial Ace respectively was already extremely questionable, but now, they've taken the stupidity up to 11 and then made it even stupider, because they decided 11 wasn't stupid enough. That said, I want an Inferno Overdrive Ludicolo.
There is no way that we're going to use Z-Moves competitively that also fit flavorly with the Pokemon using them. We already use Power Herb Solar Beam and Natural Gift Talonflame, so Let the Raging Inferno of Fire Types bring on the unyielding barrage of Bloom Doom!
But they never wanted to do that in the games. Sure in the anime and manga they made Mewtwo, but in the games they were simply a mafia in control of Kanto - that was it.
I'm late but I wanted to let things digest b/c it was the first time that a Sun/Moon trailer overwhelmed me. They've really made an effort to change things up and keep things fresh.
*Glad to see they found a way to give pokemon a second chance without resorting to Megas. The sheer amount of megas introduced last gen meant that some megas were already getting lost in the shuffle, which sort of defeats the point of megas in the first place. Exeggcutor-A is hilariously silly and Ninetales-A is stunning. Plus it's awesome that pokemon are biologically evolving.
*The new pokemon introduced are solid. An overall improvement from the last batch. My favorites are Oricorio and Lurantis
*The (likely) final evos of Rowlet and Popplio are amazing. Great concepts and execution. Rowlet's final evo is my favorite among the grass starters. If promoted properly, it has the potential to be what Charizard and Greninja are to their respective starter groups. None the grass starter final evos are at their level (Sceptile is the closest but not quite) but this one has the potential. Also, please let Popplio's final evo's shiny have red hair and green tail. Can't wait to see these two in motion.
*The Island Challenge seems interesting. Reminds me of the Orange Islands League.
*I love how they've been gradually make HMs obsolete with soaring or making strength rocks fall in a hole so you only have to do it once. If riding pokemon means phasing out HMs, I'm all for it.
*I'm not sure what to think of Z moves. The animation is cool and I'll probably use it a lot in-game but I'm not sure how much of a presence they'll be in competitive. It seems like only a select group would find it useful since you would have to choose this over a mega stone, leftovers, life orb, etc. But then again, it seems like a free KO and a lot of players may appreciate a quick way to get rid of a particular pokemon.
*Glad to see they found a way to give pokemon a second chance without resorting to Megas. The sheer amount of megas introduced last gen meant that some megas were already getting lost in the shuffle, which sort of defeats the point of megas in the first place. Exeggcutor-A is hilariously silly and Ninetales-A is stunning. Plus it's awesome that pokemon are biologically evolving.
*The new pokemon introduced are solid. An overall improvement from the last batch. My favorites are Oricorio and Lurantis
*The (likely) final evos of Rowlet and Popplio are amazing. Great concepts and execution. Rowlet's final evo is my favorite among the grass starters. If promoted properly, it has the potential to be what Charizard and Greninja are to their respective starter groups. None the grass starter final evos are at their level (Sceptile is the closest but not quite) but this one has the potential. Also, please let Popplio's final evo's shiny have red hair and green tail. Can't wait to see these two in motion.
*The Island Challenge seems interesting. Reminds me of the Orange Islands League.
*I love how they've been gradually make HMs obsolete with soaring or making strength rocks fall in a hole so you only have to do it once. If riding pokemon means phasing out HMs, I'm all for it.
*I'm not sure what to think of Z moves. The animation is cool and I'll probably use it a lot in-game but I'm not sure how much of a presence they'll be in competitive. It seems like only a select group would find it useful since you would have to choose this over a mega stone, leftovers, life orb, etc. But then again, it seems like a free KO and a lot of players may appreciate a quick way to get rid of a particular pokemon.
You've literally just worded my exact thoughts. This is pretty much just a more powerful Natural Gift that doesn't use a berry. If it was a chargeable gauge similar to the Synergy Gauge in Pokken Tournament, then maybe I could see it being viable. The only way I can see this being useful in competitive is if used as a lure a la Natural Gift (and even then not many mons could use it over Natural Gift due to the fact that they can't learn any moves of their desired Z Move type).
- Status