Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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Pikachu315111

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Z-Moves:
Gen VI amazed many when they introduce Mega Evolution, essentially super forms which massively boosts a Pokemon's power at the cost of its item slot. Mega Evolution was a big game changer, if you wanted to be competitive you NEEDED to have a Mega Evolution and prepare for whatever Mega Evolution your opponent brings out. With such a major change people probably weren't expecting something else on this scale, mainly because they were waiting for more Mega Evolutions. Little did we know that another "super" thing was on its way until we saw hints of it, and today it fully revealed: Z-Moves, super moves which you can only use once per battle.

Equipment: In order to use Z-Moves you need two Key Items: a Z-Ring and a Z-Crystal. There is a Z-Crystal for each type and you need two to do a Z-Move: one to put in the Z-Ring and another for your Pokemon to hold.
So yeah, similar idea to Mega Evolution though this time instead of having a single Key Stone in the trainer's device you need to have matching crystals. Not sure why they did that, you can only use a super move once so it's not like it's to prevent multiple Pokemon using a Z-Move. The only reason I can think of is to ensure that you have a set Pokemon to use a super move, like you can't give multiple Pokemon Z-Crystals thinking in a pinch you can have any of them use a super move (which is itself odd as Mega Evolution has no problem letting you give multiple Pokemon their Mega Stone and letting you Mega Evolve any one of them).
Also since the Z-Crystals are Key Items I don't think you need to worry about the Pokemon consuming them like they did with Gems thus needing to go out to find more. Once you have the Z-Crystals your set.

Activation: In order to actually perform the Z-Move you have to do two things: (1.) Have your Pokemon hold the Z-Crystal of the same type active in your Z-Ring and (2.) have your Pokemon know the type of that move. And according to the site that's it, I'm guessing a prompt appears similar to Mega Evolution on the battle screen that lets you use a Z-Move at any time (though only once per battle).
So from what I'm getting from this, a Pokemon can perform a Z-Move of a type that it isn't. That just seems strange to me, like when I think of a super move I only imagine a Pokemon of that type using it, hence why its a super move. But no, from what we have on the site as long as the Pokemon can learn a move of that type it can use that type of Z-Move. Do Pokemon of the same type receive a bonus for using a Z-Move of their type (other than STAB)? Because if not, honestly, I imagine Pokemon would use a Z-Move of another type for coverage since most often then not an offensive Pokemon can get enough power from normal moves of their type thanks to STAB.
Also what stat do these Z-Moves work off of? Do they choose the highest offense stat? Is it based on the Category of the move it's temporarily replacing? If so what if that move was a Status Move? Also what about Pokemon who are more defensive or support thus have a low attack stats? I guess it could just choose that Pokemon's highest stat even if its not Attack or Special Attack. Also what defensive stat would it hit the opponent in? Their lowest (surely they can't go for lowest stat period, it has to be a defensive stat)?
Speaking of Status Moves, do they count? It seems odd just because a Pokemon have a supporting move that just so happens to be another type they can use that type's Z-Move. Yes the site doesn't say "attacking moves", just "moves".
It's so odd that, if we do take what it written on the site as face value then they're being very loose with how and which Z-Move a Pokemon can perform despite having been unusually strict with choosing which Pokemon gets to use it. I think maybe we need more clarification here, if there even is.

Known Z-Moves: So far we know the Electric, Grass, Fire, and Water-type Z-Moves.

Electric is Gigavolt Havoc. The trainer creates a lightning bolt shape with their arms, the Z-Ring sending energy to the Pokemon who launches a giant thunderbolt at the target which creates a dome of electricity around them. I guess you could say your target *puts on sunglasses* won't be getting past thunder dome. YEEEEEAAAAAH!
Grass is Bloom Doom. The trainer praises the sun makes a blooming motion, the Z-Ring sending energy to the Pokemon who creates a field of flowers which then erupts with energy under the target as a giant flower blooms around them. I think the name of the Z-Move does the joke for me.
Fire is Inferno Overdrive. The trainer... I'm not quite sure how to describe what they do. They sort of make the arm motion a someone does when they want an audience to cheer louder before striking a pose with their hand sticking out. Anyway the Z-Ring sends energy to the Pokemon who launches a fire ball that grows as it travels until hitting the target creating a massive explosion. No kill like overkill.
Water is Hydro Vortex. The trainer does a Hawaiian dance (which just so happens to look like the motion of waving water), the Z-Ring sending energy to the Pokemon who dive both it and the target underwater before rapidly swimming around them and creating a whirlpool tornado around them. Well clearly this is the overpowered one as the Pokemon either completey floods the field or teleports it and the target to the middle of the ocean or a water dimension.

Eitherway the moves sound and look over the top which I approve. I want my super moves to look like I didn't just beat my opponent, I utterly destroyed them. Here's waiting to see what the others look like. :)

Implications: So what do the Z-Moves mean for team building? I'm genuinely curious of their viability since you are giving up a lot for just a one time super move (giving up the item slot and maybe even a move slot just to have a type of the Z-Move you want). Mega Evolution had it being okay to give up the item slot (Mega Rayquaza not withstanding) as in return the Mega Pokemon got a +100 base stat increase and maybe even a Type and Ability change to further empower it. But for a one time super move done only by one Pokemon, is it even worth it? I guess maybe for some Pokemon who would really like to get any threat to it out of the way so it can do its job like a early or late game sweeper, but I'm seeing these moves just another version of the Gems except they're their own moves instead of powering up an existing one.
Also, do Z-Moves ignore the likes of Protect and moves that make the user semi-invulnerable? If they don't that's another downside to them as now you need to plan carefully when to use your Z-Move or you waste it. Also what if the opponent decides on that turn to switch to a Pokemon who is immune to that type of move? Do Z-Moves take top priority?
With that all said, I'd imagine Little Cup will have fun with Z-Moves. :P

What Is The Z: Hmm, and what does that Z stand for? Zygarde? As I said, Z-Moves are like Mega Evolution and its been implied in places Zygarde sort of has something to do with Mega Evolution. Could there be a link between the two? It also has been noted that the Z-Ring look to have a place on the bottom that a Key Stone could fit.

Merchandise: Finally, to get in on that sweet Yokai Watch money, Pokemon has partnered with Tomy to make a toy Z-Ring which makes sound effects while playing the game and performing a Z-Move (though unless the toy will have some interaction with the games they kind of missed the point why the Yokai Watch became popular). The only reason I'm noting this is because a promotional image of the toy revealed ALL the symbols of the types and also that the Z-Ring can hold at least 4 other Z-Crystals. Maybe I'm wrong about it only have one Z-Crystal active in the Z-Ring and you can somehow switch between them? Though if that's the case can you obtain more than a pair of Z-Crystals? What if you have two Pokemon you want to potentially use the same type of Z-Move and your willing to give up both of their items to give one of them a chance to use it? Well, either way here's what the Z-Crystals look like:

Electric - Yellow - Lightning Bolt
Fire - Red - Flame
Grass - Green - Leaf
Water - Light Blue - Water Drop
Fighting - Orange - Fist
Normal - White - Circles (vaguely looks like a Poke Ball?)
Steel - Dark Gray - Cube
Rock - Dark Brown - Piece of Stone (maybe an amber?)
Poison - Dark Purple - Skull and Crossbones
Ghost - Purple - Ghostly Wisp
Dark - Black - Crescent Moon
Bug - Light Green - Beetle
Flying - Dark Blue - Pair of Wings
Dragon - Blue - Rune/Claw?
Ice - Gray - Snowflake
Fairy - Pink? - Pixie?
Psychic - Magenta - Eye
Ground - Brown - Layered Lines


NEXT TIME: Poke Rides (Sorry, This Post Took Longer Than I Thought)
 
Guys, just a word of caution; don't get too invested in speculating about the starters' designs, competitive viability, typing etc. from the Chinese leak. Yes, we can make credible assumptions based on what official info's been released so far, but we know nothing for certain beyond the base forms revealed in the first trailer. It's futile talking about competitive viability when we know nothing about stats, typing, abilities of the final evolutions.

Concept art has its name for a reason; a concept is an idea, and that idea could potentially change before the designs are finalized. Again, we have no clue as to how early this concept art was drawn in the SM development timeline. That's not to say the leak doesn't have credibility, but nothing is 100% certain until Game Freak confirms it to be so. That's my view, anyway.
 
Hmm, and what does that Z stand for? Zygarde?
The spirit of Pokemon Z lives on within Sun and Moon. I actually dislike this because I feel like Zygarde (Gen 6) should've had its plot in Gen 6. How many legends have their main plot not in the generation they're introduced (excluding remakes)? Isn't Zygarde supposed to keep Yvetal and Xerneas in check? I doubt that will be in S/M so it will probably be a new storyline which I just...don't like.
 
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Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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It only works on fast Pokemon like Infernape and Blaziken, though. Litten's evolution is at best base 80 speed, and for Infernape's case he's viable because of his insane move pool which allows him to beat Pokemon that otherwise would give him hard problems.
Guess which of these Pokemon has higher base speed:
vs.


Please don't make dumb speculations based on appearances.
 
Guess which of these Pokemon has higher base speed:
vs.


Please don't make dumb speculations based on appearances.
They aren't starters, though. If you notice in every gen since at least gen 3 there are 2 slow starters and 1 fast starter. Sceptile, Infernape, Serperior, Greninja, and presumably Rowlett. I doubt I'm wrong but it's whatever.
 
They aren't starters, though. If you notice in every gen since at least gen 3 there are 2 slow starters and 1 fast starter. Sceptile, Infernape, Serperior, Greninja, and presumably Rowlett. I doubt I'm wrong but it's whatever.
Being a starter doesn't really matter. A Pokemon is a Pokemon.
 

Pikachu315111

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They aren't starters, though. If you notice in every gen since at least gen 3 there are 2 slow starters and 1 fast starter. Sceptile, Infernape, Serperior, Greninja, and presumably Rowlett. I doubt I'm wrong but it's whatever.
What makes Rowlet the fast one? If you were going by appearance wouldn't the more agile looking Litten be the fast one?

I agree with Deck Knight, it's pointless to discuss which Starter is faster or any of their stats. Not only because we don't know but also for 1st stage starters the stats usually don't matter as they can completely change upon evolution.

Let's focus on what news we have.
 
I have a theory, a Pokemon theory... What if there were actually 8 big trainer battles? We know for sure that we will have to defeat the kahuna of each island, so 4 battles. We also know that kahunas are different people than the trial captains. But then, why are we getting detailed information about the typing of the Pokemon that trial captains have? And why they would only use one type? This makes me think that they are no regular trainers, that we may be meant to also defeat them, just like regular gym leaders.

Also, in the official page we should notice a relevant piece of information: "To complete the island challenge, young trial-goers must overcome the trials in store on each of the four islands. These trials are not limited to battling with Pokémon." Not limited to battling with Pokemon, meaning, we have to battle, and do other stuff, like collecting ingredients or analysing local dances.

Finally, if we also take into consideration that after completing the trials we are going to battle a Pokemon Totem then it makes sense for captains to challenge us to a battle, so as to make sure we are prepared for a thought battle and that we have become stronger and better trainers after completing their respective trials. Again, as the official page: "Each trial has a captain, whose role is to provide guidance to trial-goers." Is their duty, then, to watch out if we are ready or not for the next step. I guess that they wouldn't want a weak trainer to be destroyed by the Totem, or a bad person hurting a Totem. They must make sure you are both strong and care for Pokemon.

What do you think, guys? Are we only going to have at last 4 big battles, or are we going to stick the the 8 battle formula? I want to hear your opinions.
 
Arceus, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are 100% confirmed unique. Others are not. I just have doubts on Mewtwo since it was man-made and he destroyed the lab afterwards (while team plasma made several genesects), and maybe on the lake guardian trio since they also have a job in the universe creation. But those four have not been confirmed unique yet afaik.
Well, if the post-game Battle Facilities are anything to go by, the Lake Trio have never been used by any NPC trainer in any of the Battle Facilities, while all other trios have. This does seem to imply the uniqueness of the Lake Trio.

The spirit of Pokemon Z lives on within Sun and Moon. I actually dislike this because I feel like Zygarde (Gen 6) should've had its plot in Gen 6. How many legends have their main plot not in the generation they're introduced (excluding remakes)? Isn't Zygarde supposed to keep Yvetal and Xerneas in check? I doubt that will be in S/M so it will probably be a new storyline which I just...don't like.
Actually, there was never anything mentioned about Zygarde being related to Xerneas and Yveltal. We just all assumed it was related because it filled the "Z" of "XYZ". But if we were to look at its Pokedex entries and lore, there's nothing mentioned about Xerneas and Yveltal. It's main entry says:

"When the Kalos region's ecosystem falls into disarray, it appears and reveals its secret power."

Which is interesting because it specifically mentions Kalos. Since we know that Zygarde seems to have a role in Sun/Moon, this might imply some sort Kalos-related part in the game.
 
About the starters I'd like to recall the Battle Royal that we saw during a trailer (don't really remember which one) where Pikachu and the three starters at lvl 5 were facing each other. Order of attack was : Pikachu > Litten > Rowlet > Popplio. I know lvl 5 is not that accurate but that's a start and in this battle, Rowlet had 23 HP, that's a LOT for a lvl 5 1st stage starter.
 
Okay, I stand corrected. I still maintain that it's unlikely that they will create Alolan forms of legendaries, but who knows? We'll just have to wait and see.
It's very unlikely, tbh. But well... we can dream, the battle frontier is unlikely too x'D. One thing I see is probable are the Kanto Starters in their Alola forms. I know I put Pokémon Insurgence too often in my mouth, but when I look at Delta Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charmander, I can't see Game Freak missing this oportunity. It's the perfect fanservice. I'm not gonna lie, I'm very excited about the alternate forms, I have always dreamed about this. I want this above all else, even new Pokémon (because I think there is a lot of unexplored potential in the ones we already have, tweaking them a bit). I want massive fanservice. I want a Rock/Water Heatran, a Fire/Steel Relicanth, swimming in lava, only catchable with the Super Rod (fishing in lava, c'mon, you can do this in Terraria!), things like that.
 
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Actually, there was never anything mentioned about Zygarde being related to Xerneas and Yveltal. We just all assumed it was related because it filled the "Z" of "XYZ". But if we were to look at its Pokedex entries and lore, there's nothing mentioned about Xerneas and Yveltal. It's main entry says:

"When the Kalos region's ecosystem falls into disarray, it appears and reveals its secret power."

Which is interesting because it specifically mentions Kalos. Since we know that Zygarde seems to have a role in Sun/Moon, this might imply some sort Kalos-related part in the game.
Aura Break is a thing, so yes it is related to Xerneas and Yveltal by being able to counter them. Although it's interesting that it loses this ability in exchange for getting buff.
 

boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Remember when CoroCoro said that Rowlet, Litten, Popplio, and Rockruff hid some sort of secret?

It can't be Alola Forms, since these Pokemon are already native to Alola in their regular forms. And it can't be Z-Moves, since every Pokemon (not just these four) have access to them.

So it must be something else, no?
 
What makes Rowlet the fast one? If you were going by appearance wouldn't the more agile looking Litten be the fast one?

I agree with Deck Knight, it's pointless to discuss which Starter is faster or any of their stats. Not only because we don't know but also for 1st stage starters the stats usually don't matter as they can completely change upon evolution.

Let's focus on what news we have.
Wasn't the turn order in the E3 Battle Royal something like Litten > Pikachu > Rowlet > Popplio? Or Pikachu > Litten > Rowlet > Popplio? I think from there we can kind of infer relative speeds but even that is a little iffy since we don't know anything else about it.

Also: If the island leaders are called Kahunas, then maybe the Champion mentioned by the Alola Backpacker in XY is the Big Kahuna...
 
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Remember when CoroCoro said that Rowlet, Litten, Popplio, and Rockruff hid some sort of secret?

It can't be Alola Forms, since these Pokemon are already native to Alola in their regular forms. And it can't be Z-Moves, since every Pokemon (not just these four) have access to them.

So it must be something else, no?
Can you link me to something? I don't seem to remember this particular detail.
 
Remember when CoroCoro said that Rowlet, Litten, Popplio, and Rockruff hid some sort of secret?

It can't be Alola Forms, since these Pokemon are already native to Alola in their regular forms. And it can't be Z-Moves, since every Pokemon (not just these four) have access to them.

So it must be something else, no?
Wasn't there a rumor that all of them have branch evolutions based on time and/or location?
 
Aura Break is a thing, so yes it is related to Xerneas and Yveltal by being able to counter them. Although it's interesting that it loses this ability in exchange for getting buff.
That's true. It always seemed to me like Zygarde was added last minute. It's like Gamefreak went with the "box legend trio" formula they've used since RSE while developing XY, thus giving us Zygarde and its ability, Aura Break. But the fact that Zygarde's actual lore mentions nothing about Xerneas or Yveltal makes it seem like Gamefreak either ran out of time or just couldn't figure out how to relate Zygarde to the other two. And now, it seems like they've decided to just make Zygarde it's own thing.

Wasn't there a rumor that all of them have branch evolutions based on time and/or location?
There is a leak like that. You can see it here as #3:

https://discordcdn.com/attachments/133679905006157824/210144772919132161/1470156868724.jpg

It's the least credible of the 4 in the image right now, mainly because it hasn't really gotten anything right. But for whatever reason, people are lumping it together with the leaks #1,2,4, which all have something going for them.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
The spirit of Pokemon Z lives on within Sun and Moon. I actually dislike this because I feel like Zygarde (Gen 6) should've had its plot in Gen 6. How many legends have their main plot not in the generation they're introduced (excluding remakes)? Isn't Zygarde supposed to keep Yvetal and Xerneas in check? I doubt that will be in S/M so it will probably be a new storyline which I just...don't like.
It's odd, Zygarde isn't specifically said to be related to Xerneas and Yveltal but their letter theme and its Ability certainly links it to them. And as pointed out by Rem its Pokedex description mentions it as a protector of Kalos so what is it doing in Alola?

At this point it does certainly feel that Zygarde had its game cancelled but to salvage what they planned for it they're bringing it over to Sun & Moon. Hopefully whatever way they plan on doing it doesn't feel too much like they wedged it in.

I have a theory, a Pokemon theory... What if there were actually 8 big trainer battles? We know for sure that we will have to defeat the kahuna of each island, so 4 battles. We also know that kahunas are different people than the trial captains. But then, why are we getting detailed information about the typing of the Pokemon that trial captains have? And why they would only use one type? This makes me think that they are no regular trainers, that we may be meant to also defeat them, just like regular gym leaders.

Also, in the official page we should notice a relevant piece of information: "To complete the island challenge, young trial-goers must overcome the trials in store on each of the four islands. These trials are not limited to battling with Pokémon." Not limited to battling with Pokemon, meaning, we have to battle, and do other stuff, like collecting ingredients or analyzing local dances.

Finally, if we also take into consideration that after completing the trials we are going to battle a Pokemon Totem then it makes sense for captains to challenge us to a battle, so as to make sure we are prepared for a thought battle and that we have become stronger and better trainers after completing their respective trials. Again, as the official page: "Each trial has a captain, whose role is to provide guidance to trial-goers." Is their duty, then, to watch out if we are ready or not for the next step. I guess that they wouldn't want a weak trainer to be destroyed by the Totem, or a bad person hurting a Totem. They must make sure you are both strong and care for Pokemon.

What do you think, guys? Are we only going to have at last 4 big battles, or are we going to stick the the 8 battle formula? I want to hear your opinions.
Don't get what you're implying. Of course the Captains aren't regular trainers, they're in charge of the Trials. I guess at some point we may battle them, though my guess is maybe the type of the Totem Pokemon will be the type of the Captain (and maybe any other battle that takes place in the Trial). However we may or may not battle the Captain for a Trial. Also we know there are more Captains to be shown, we just don't know how many.

I also take the "not limited to battling with Pokemon" meaning that battling may not be the main objective to the Trial. Like with Kiawe his trial is just comparing dances he does (no battling there, except with the Totem Pokemon).

Hm, I think if the Captain allowed us to take the Trial then they accept we're ready to take on whatever challenge the Trial gives us. I don't think that neccisarily mean they'll battle us to make sure we can face the Totem Pokemon, if we've been approved for the Trial that means they already think we can.

How about we either wait for more information or see when we play the games. Right now we don't know enough to make a call for certain. Though the Totem Pokemon sound like they're "big battles" in their own right so even if they aren't a trainer battles we shouln't take them lightly.

It's very unlikely, tbh. But well... we can dream, the battle frontier is unlikely too x'D. One thing I see is probable are the Kanto Starters in their Alola forms. I know I put Pokémon Insurgence too often in my mouth, but when I look at Delta Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charmander, I can't see Game Freak missing this oportunity. It's the perfect fanservice. I'm not gonna lie, I'm very excited about the alternate forms, I have always dreamed about this. I want this above all else, even new Pokémon (because I think there is a lot of unexplored potential in the ones we already have, tweaking them a bit). I want massive fanservice. I want a Rock/Water Heatran, a Fire/Steel Relicanth, swimming in lava, only catchable with the Super Rod (fishing in lava, c'mon, you can do this in Terraria!), things like that.
I rather not see any Starter getting an Alolan Form. To me a Starter should be specific to a region, if we see Alolan version of Starters that takes away some of their uniqueness (yes we got the Kanto Starters in XY but that was a special case as they got Mega Evolutions which is Sycamore's field of study, he probably got them from Oak which is why we needed to go to him to get them yet he sent us the Kalos Starters via Tierno & Trevor)
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Even Audino would have prefered a real evolution over its current fate. Being doomed to rot in unused-Mega hell.
Don't you mean Neverused-Mega hell?
Not sorry.
Also, am I the only one who wants a Ground/Water type Alolan Vibrava/Flygon?

Yes? OK...
I thought everyone wanted Bug/Dragon Flygon, but maybe that's just me.
 
There's a thing that fascinates me about Z-Moves, and it's how this new mechanic is going to force us into learn the movepool of the Pokémon. And by that, I mean the movepool, in deep, not only the viable or niche moves. For example, until now we only play competitive --or not-- keeping in mind the common sets (and the rare, but recognizable ones) of the Pokémon we confront. Think about the possibilities of this. If a Pokémon has one move, only one move of a certain type, now it has a (for sure) Base 100+ attack of that type in its arsenal. Until now, nobody cares about Ho-Oh learning Giga Drain (it's a bad example but it gives you the idea), but let not think of Giga Drain as Giga Drain, but Bloom Doom. Now Ho-Oh has access to Bloom Doom. Any move, even the shittiest of the moves, justifies the use of an ultimate move of that type. I don't like "theorymon", but it's clear to asume this can revolve the entire metagame. Think about the amount of Pokémon which lack of a powerful attack from a certain type (for example, a Pokémon whose only dark type move is Bite), and now thanks to Z Moves it becomes a powerhouse. There are Pokémon that can be countered only because they lack of coverage in one type, or the only coverage they have is a shitty move with poor BP.

To me, the terrifying thing about Z-Moves is not a Thunderbolt turning into Gigabolt Havoc, an Stone Edge turning into Mountain Crash, a Shadow Ball turning into Forsaken Curse or a Dark Pulse turning into Pitch Black. Is the amount of shitty, small, inviable moves most Pokémon can learn and transform into OHKO moves.
 
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