Gen 7 OM Competitive Discussion

OK thanks to the new footage provided it can be generally assumed that

- Z-Moves are indeed fifth moves and Pokemon that want to Mega Evolve (if thats still a thing) can't learn a Z-Move and vice versa.

What this means for other metas honestly cant be answered yet, but for Hackmons, Z-Moves could possibly be the end of bulky walls in BH. Run a Z-Move that specifically beats a certain wall along with your regular moveset and watch defensive cores effectively crumple. Remember Like most lures its a one time thing so be very careful.
A lot of Balanced Hackmons staples are heavily reliant on carrying a fairly specific item, and a lack of Leftovers triggering or the like is liable to be a pretty clear signal that you're carrying a Z-Move, in those cases where a Pokemon tends to just throw on Leftovers or whatever for lack of a better idea. There's also secondary mechanics questions yet to be answered, to my awareness.

Though now I'm wondering how practical Imposters with Z-Moves will be.

- Triage effectively gives healing moves HIGHEST priority in battle. Which means if your opponent is running Fake Out, your Recover should be +4. It heals up before an Opponent can kill off with U-Turn. Honestly while its outclassed by Prankster in singles, Triage combined with the right support movepool could be huge in doubles. Heal Pulse, Recover, Rest and maybe even Aromatherapy moving before Fake Outs are very influencial.
"Highest" priority is vague. It may simply be +3. I'm not sure any Pokemon move has ever used the phrase "highest priority" to act as a clue.

I hadn't specifically thought of Aromatherapy, but it being boosted is a possibility, yes.

- Dazzling is a nobrainer in Singles metagames. Ghoul King King went over that. In Doubles however, it might just be even more important. Assuming it shuts down all priority directed towards it, it plus Follow Me (which I could see on a Drag Queen fish) would indefinately change how things work in doubles. It is almost like Quick Guard the ability, imagine Thundy's Prankster T.Wave getting crapped on. A stray Fake Out being neutralised. AAA Doubkes anyone?
Follow Me is lower priority than Fake Out. You can't combine Dazzling with Follow Me to deal with Fake Out unless Gen VII changes the priority of one of the two.

The potential to shut down Pranksters is definitely notable in a Doubles context, though, yes. Prankster is astonishingly influential on the meta.
 
Follow Me is lower priority than Fake Out. You can't combine Dazzling with Follow Me to deal with Fake Out unless Gen VII changes the priority of one of the two.
We don't know the exact mecanism behind Dazzling, but if it blocks things like Prankster Tailwind (ie priority moves that don't target the user of Dazzling), it's likely that it will also prevent your opponent from using Fake Out on your other Pokemon. If it does block any priority move from any Pokemon on the field, then it will be great. If it just blocks moves that targets Bruxish... then it's much less useful apart from OM where Fakespeed is relevant.
 

G-Luke

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We don't know the exact mecanism behind Dazzling, but if it blocks things like Prankster Tailwind (ie priority moves that don't target the user of Dazzling), it's likely that it will also prevent your opponent from using Fake Out on your other Pokemon. If it does block any priority move from any Pokemon on the field, then it will be great. If it just blocks moves that targets Bruxish... then it's much less useful apart from OM where Fakespeed is relevant.
Dazzling would get banhammer in any Doubles format if it shuts down all opposing priority regardless if it targets user.
 
Lockdown's going to be interesting come SuMo - Tapu Koko could easily come in on Turn 6 and boom you've got permanent Electric Terrain (unless you get outpredicted by your opponent who also sets up terrain). With Raichu-A getting a Speed boost and a 1.5X boost to Electric STAB, it'll make Electric Terrain much more viable.

I think it's fair to say that Lunala and Solgaleo are going to learn moves with solar and lunar connotations, respectively. This would give Lunala a fighting chance against Dark types, as it would have Moonblast for coverage. Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam could be interesting additions to metas like Sketchmons, as most Special Steel types are stuck using the weak Flash Cannon or the unreliable Doom Desire. It looked like a special attack in the video, and it seems pretty powerful: it OHKOed a Salamence. Moongeist beam would be a great option for Ghost types, as they have to make do with the weak Shadow Ball. Again, it looked like a Special move. For now I'm saying Moongeist Beam's a Ghost move (it was super effective on a Gengar). Ignoring abilities is a cool touch as well, although I'm not sure how useful that'll be in utility.

A lot of the abilities look really cool this generation. My particular favourites are Dazzling, Fluffy and Comatose. All metas are very priority centric, and Dazzling would be perfect for fast frail Pokémon like Weavile. In metas like AAA, Terrakion would love this ability - no more Bullet Punch shenanigans! Fluffy could be great on physically frail Pokémon like Chansey - it can take most Special Fire moves anyway. Comatose - would you like Limber, Immunity, Water Veil and Magma Armour all in one? Yes please. This could be great on bulky sweepers that fear status, like Slowbro.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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Even more news!!!!! And still no native dark type!!!

Pallossand looks neat with Water compaction. I was really hoping for Arena Trap but Oh Well! Ground Mono will love it. Ghost Mono might need it.

Crabrawler looks ok. I'd think that it would get Water/Fighting but it still alright. Cant speculate until stats come in however.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I don't see why we can't talk about popular OMs tho. Everything is theorymon right now, so restricting it to just Gen 7 ladders means nothing when we're all just talking out of our asses anyway.

So this post is about STABmons.

New Pokémon

Bewear - Normal / Fighting | Fluffy / Klutz

Depending on its Attack, this might be a decent FakeSpeeder and can act like a Mega Lopunny-lite when you already have another mega. Fluffy is great for mitigating enemy FakeSpeeds and if it's bulky enough you could even run Swords Dance / Extreme Speed / HJK / Recover and setup on physical threats. Depending on Bewear's Speed, Heatran could make a good emergency stop, as it resists Normal priority and can maybe KO it with SE STAB (insert strongest relevant Gen 7 Fire attack here).​

Bruxish - Water / Psychic | Dazzling / Strong Jaw

Let's pray it has decent bulk and a recovery move! Dazzling will be a godsend in STABmons, and with this type combo, Bruxish can shut down Mega Lop hard. If it has middling HP / Def but no recovery, it could serve as a niche stopgap on some teams but probably won't be a staple.​

Drampa - Normal / Dragon | Berserk / Sap Sipper

By virtue of being part Normal, Drampa already has an edge. Most people are expecting it to be bulky and slow, but if it's not too slow, Dragon Dance may come in handy, assuming its Attack is any good, and the ability of choice there would be Sap Sipper. Berserk obviously favors Special Attack and thanks to Normal typing it can run Recover, allowing it to grab boosts and heal up for more later. I can also see defensive sets working because Dragon comes with a fair number of resistances and with Normal it can be a cleric, Wish passer, spinner, Baton Pass pivot, etc, or any combination therein.​

Gumshoos - Normal | Stakeout / Strong Jaw

I would love to see a usable Attack on Gumshoos, which if history has taught us anything with the early Normals such as Raticate, Stoutland, and Furret, that's often the case. Even if it's not very high, the ability Stakeout helps. Consider this: as a FakeSpeeder, it will cause switches against frail targets avoiding the Fake Out, giving Gumshoos a chance to hit the incoming Steel, Rock, Ghost, etc hard with the appropriate coverage, or just an 80 BP Fake Out. And if it doesn't have U-turn, it can Baton Pass to gain momentum instead. Not a game changer but it has the potential to be an excellent revenger.
Magearna - Steel / Fairy | Soul-Heart

Steel/Fairy is a cool defensive typing and as a legendary Magearna will have all around good stats, so I can see it doing well as a bulky supporter or wall with access to Moonlight, King's Shield, and other generic tools like Toxic and Thunder Wave (not confirmed). Fleur Cannon and Soul-Heart can piggyback off one another if Fleur Cannon snags a KO, resulting in a net stat change of -1 rather than -2. Moonblast is more reliable, however.​

Mimikyu - Ghost / Fairy | Disguise

Disguise's description leads me to believe it works only once per battle, not per turn like Fake Out. I'm not sure how Mimikyu will do just by its typing alone, as Ghost and Fairy do not typically offer a lot of new toys (as opposed to things like Normal, Flying, Dark, etc). If it's decently fast and strong, it can work as a good offensive threat as Ghost/Fairy are solid dual STABs. Let's hope it has Calm Mind or Nasty Plot to work with.​

Mudsdale - Ground | Own Tempo / Stamina

Another potential stopgap to FakeSpeeders thanks to Stamina. If Mudsdale has recovery (Slack Off?) and a passable base Defense it's going to be a competitor for Landorus-T's spot as the go-to bulky Ground in STABmons. It will have Precipice Blades and Spikes at its disposal, plus it learns a new move called High Horsepower (I think?) but that move's accuracy, base power, and effects haven't been confirmed to my knowledge.​

Tapu Koko - Electric / Fairy | Electric Surge

Electric/Fairy is another cool typing both offensively and defensively, but I have a feeling TK is going to be more of an offensive Pokemon. Electric Surge will protect it from sleep plus it boosts Electric moves 50%. If Thundurus gets re-banned next gen this will probably be the preferred Electric.​

Turtonator - Fire / Dragon | Shell Armor

Just based on the history of these types, it's probably going to be a special attacker, but the idea of a physical Dragon Dancer that can't be burned sounds epic. Shell Armor is more helpful on defensive Pokemon, but maybe it will have access to a move that boosts defense(s) in tandem with offense(s), in which case it will help out. And as a turtle, there's a high chance it will get Shell Smash. That's no guarantee, however, as we've seen with Blastoise. And Shell Trap looks like a mixed bag. If it's just a Counter clone, I'll pass. My gut tells me it works differently, something along the lines of laying the trap that lasts multiple turns until the right move activates it. Also does it rebound damage like Counter or is it more like Powder?​

Vikavolt - Bug / Electric | Levitate

Basically the momentum generator of the century with U-turn and Volt Switch ... except Galvantula has those moves too and no one uses it. By appearances it looks like a physical attacker, so expect it to use Megahorn and Bolt Strike (or any new Bug and Electric moves with higher base power).​

Alola Forms

Marowak - Fire / Ghost | Cursed Body / Lightning Rod

If it can still benefit from Thick Club, V-create is really going to hurt lol.​


New Moves

Core Enforcer - Learnt by Zygarde: Dragon | If the Pokémon it hits has already moved this turn, the Pokémon's Ability is removed.

I'm not sure what relevant Dragons will appreciate removing the target's ability, and relying on a move that activates its ability after the target has moved isn't all that appealing. On top of that Dragons want to be fast and/or boost with Dragon Dance. Unless it has a better BP than Dragon Claw and decent accuracy it's not going to be common.​

Fleur Cannon - Learnt by Magearna: Fairy | Draco Meteor clone.

Our resident Fairy nuke, Sylveon, will stick to Boomburst thankyouverymuch. In general, Fairies have access to Moonblast, which is more reliable and has a great secondary effect. Probably won't see much use.​

Shell Trap - Learnt by Turtonator: Fire | Sets a trap whereby if the user is hit by a Physical attack, the attacker is hit by an explosion that deals much greater damage.

So I'm dubious on how this move will work exactly. Does it stay on the field until it's activated? Will it go away after one turn? A few turns? Does it deal set damage like Powder or a percentage of the damage taken like Counter or some other new calculation? Heatran may use it with its good bulk and resistances, but it generally prefers King's Shield to punish physical attackers. On paper it sounds intriguing (like Powder did last gen) but in practice I have a feeling it's too niche to be useful.​

Solar Blade - Learnt by Lurantis: Grass | Physical Solar Beam.

If we get a physical Grass-type with Drought (very unlikely) then it will use Solar Blade. Otherwise you have Power Whip, Horn Leech, and Seed Bomb even, which are stronger, have a better side effect, or are more reliable than Solar Blade, respectively.​

Thousand Arrows - Learnt by Zygarde: Ground | Hits Pokémon in the air and knocks them to the ground.

Already controversial. Landorus-T, Garchomp, and other strong Ground-types will appreciate the side effect but will they enjoy the very noticeable drop in power from Precipice Blades? It will destroy Rotom-W's role as a Landorus-T counter immediately, which is something.​

Thousand Waves - Learnt by Zygarde: Ground | Prevents Pokémon from fleeing.

It's a Ground-type Infestation but stronger. Cool but why do Ground-types need to trap anything?​
 
OK, so if AAA gets renewed in Gen 7 (it should IMO, as there'll be lots of new toys), let's discuss the new abilities.

Full Metal Body: Clear Body clone. Why would I bother with this?
Shadow Shield: Multiscale clone. Again, why would I bother?
Comatose: Basically Immunity, Limber, Magma Armour and Water Veil in one. Could be cool, but Magic Bounce will still probably be better
Power Construct: Likely similar to Forecast, in that it only works for Zygarde
Soul Heart: Special Moxie. Could be good for fast special sweepers like Volcarona and Keldeo, although they might prefer Magic Guard and Adaptability, respectively
Stakeout: Good for strong wallbreakers that force switches. Still faces strong competition from the big 4 of offensive abilities though (Tough Claws, Sheer Force, Tinted Lens, Adaptability)
Dazzling: Brilliant for fast frail Pokémon like Alakazam and Weavile, as it means they no longer fear priority
Berserk: Since this is a raw stat boost, it seems likely that it will remain if you recover HP. Could be useful on something like Life Orb Latios
Battery: Useless in Singles
Corrosion: Great ability for a toxic spreader. Heatran could use it to spread Toxic to the Fire-immune Steel types it normally draws in
Disguise: This'll be a fantastic ability, assuming it isn't locked to Mimikyu
Fluffy: A less broken version of Fur Coat? Yes please. Skarmory, Scizor and Latias could all use it well - the former two can't take Fire moves anyway, and the latter's weakness is cancelled out
Electric Surge: A good ability for fast Electric-types - they get a sleep immunity and a X1.5 boost to their STABs
Stamina: Could be good on mixed walls. Skarmory and Hippowdon could become nigh unbreakable on the physical side
Triage: Eh, inferior Prankster. Pass. Unless it also works on moves like Giga Drain
Wimp Out: Could be decent on some offensive Pokémon, but like Stakeout it still faces stiff competition from the Big 4 offensive abilities.
Dancer: Not very good in Singles, so I don't think it'll get much use
Shields down: Likely exclusive
Innards Out: Basically Aftermath 2.0. A good ability, but generally outclassed
Schooling: Likely exclusive
Surge Surfer: Could work well for Magnezone, as it can set up Electric Terrain itself
Water Composition: Eh I'd rather go with Water Absorb
 
What this means for other metas honestly cant be answered yet, but for Hackmons, Z-Moves could possibly be the end of bulky walls in BH. Run a Z-Move that specifically beats a certain wall along with your regular moveset and watch defensive cores effectively crumple. Remember Like most lures its a one time thing so be very careful.?

Unless these moves have really high base power, they're not going to be crumpling much. For example, if we assume Z-moves have a whopping BP of 200...

252 Atk Mega Rayquaza Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 370-436 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That hurts. BUT, that's also one-use only. So, Chansey will simply use Recover and laugh at your Mega-Ray. Yeah, 'tis just one example, mind, other walls might take more damage or other attackers might do less damage or whatever. Or the Z-moves might have less BP. Or maybe they'll do percentage-based damage? But, either way, it illustrates that bulky walls can withstand the hits unless the BP is truly insane. Then there's the prevalence of King's Shield and Spiky Shield which, if you Z-move into one of those, your one-shot wonder is completely wasted unless they bypass or out-prioritize Protect-esque moves.

And then, as Ghoul King said, a lot of BH Pokemon rely on their items, which you have to give up to run a Z-move. Which means no Life Orbs, Safety Goggles, Lum Berries, Leftovers, PH Toxic Orbs, and so forth.

Also, I still stand that Z-moves will be more useful to the bulky walls themselves. Or at least the ones with decent offensive stats. Stall can use this stuff too, after all! Just set some hazards, wait for the offensive check to switch in, and then just surprise Z-move it into oblivion. After all, bulky Pokemon are more likely to survive the attack, the fast, frail offensive staples are not.

0 SpA Giratina Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Again, assumption of 200 BP.
 
We don't know the exact mecanism behind Dazzling, but if it blocks things like Prankster Tailwind (ie priority moves that don't target the user of Dazzling), it's likely that it will also prevent your opponent from using Fake Out on your other Pokemon. If it does block any priority move from any Pokemon on the field, then it will be great. If it just blocks moves that targets Bruxish... then it's much less useful apart from OM where Fakespeed is relevant.
Well, yes, but if it works like that Follow Me is irrelevant to the point.

Bewear - Normal / Fighting | Fluffy / Klutz

Depending on its Attack, this might be a decent FakeSpeeder and can act like a Mega Lopunny-lite when you already have another mega. Fluffy is great for mitigating enemy FakeSpeeds and if it's bulky enough you could even run Swords Dance / Extreme Speed / HJK / Recover and setup on physical threats. Depending on Bewear's Speed, Heatran could make a good emergency stop, as it resists Normal priority and can maybe KO it with SE STAB (insert strongest relevant Gen 7 Fire attack here).​

I'm not sure why you'd run High Jump Kick over Close Combat. Mega Lopunny runs High Jump Kick because A: Scrappy means Ghost switch-ins aren't a problem for it and B: it can't actually run Close Combat. 130 BP is such a small boost over 120 BP that it's literally drowned out by damage variance.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 110-129 (32.2 - 37.8%) -- 95.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 17.5% chance to 3HKO

Meanwhile, Close Combat will never miss and will never remove half the user's health. It's not like Bewear has Regenerator, like Mienshao, to shrug off High Jump Kick's recoil on misses.

Fluffy making it a potential fakespeed check is interesting, definitely. It doesn't even need that much bulk at base to shrug off damage, thanks to Fluffy.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fur Coat Swoobat: 109-129 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Swoobat has 67 base HP and 55 base Defense, keep in mind. Through blind coincidence, it ends up with basically the same bulk as Mew if it has Fur Coat Fluffy. I... honestly didn't plan that.

Mind, High Jump Kick is a OHKO even with Fur Coat, due to effectiveness, so Bewear would either need to outspeed Mega Lopunny (Unlikely) or have pretty solid bulk -not necessarily very high (70 HP/80 Defense with Fur Coat will survive High Jump Kick even with Stealth Rock up, when hit with Mega Lopunny's super effective High Jump Kick if HP is fully invested) but it can't be a fragile speedsters unless it's silly-fast.

Bruxish - Water / Psychic | Dazzling / Strong Jaw

Let's pray it has decent bulk and a recovery move! Dazzling will be a godsend in STABmons, and with this type combo, Bruxish can shut down Mega Lop hard. If it has middling HP / Def but no recovery, it could serve as a niche stopgap on some teams but probably won't be a staple.​

On the plus side, it resists High Jump Kick. It actually doesn't need that much bulk to laugh at those Mega Lopunny's that are overly reliant on priority+High Jump Kick.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This is a Mew with base 50/50 HP and Defense. Bruxish can have kind of terrible bulk and still work as a check. It's mainly a question of whether it will be niche as a fakespeed stop that struggles against everything else or an ungodly useful Pokemon all around. If nothing else, it will have Rest (Because STABmons), so if it's bulk is solid and it lacks regular recovery, it may still be able to function passably via Resting off damage.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew (Water type): 124-146 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's Mew's regular statline. In that scenario Mega Lopunny would have to have Swords Dance or Power Up Punch or something of the sort to push through Bruxish. And of course Bruxish will have Scald because this is STABmons...

Mimikyu - Ghost / Fairy | Disguise

Disguise's description leads me to believe it works only once per battle, not per turn like Fake Out. I'm not sure how Mimikyu will do just by its typing alone, as Ghost and Fairy do not typically offer a lot of new toys (as opposed to things like Normal, Flying, Dark, etc). If it's decently fast and strong, it can work as a good offensive threat as Ghost/Fairy are solid dual STABs. Let's hope it has Calm Mind or Nasty Plot to work with.​

Fairy gives it Geomancy if that doesn't get banned in Gen VII, which combines well with Disguise. Being able to drop a Curse from behind a Disguise also makes it a reliable last-ditch check to setup sweeper (Or Moxie/Soul Heart) rampages that aren't multi-hit based or otherwise able to bypass the Disguise. (I suspect Mold Breaker will ignore Disguise, for example)

Turtonator - Fire / Dragon | Shell Armor

Just based on the history of these types, it's probably going to be a special attacker, but the idea of a physical Dragon Dancer that can't be burned sounds epic. Shell Armor is more helpful on defensive Pokemon, but maybe it will have access to a move that boosts defense(s) in tandem with offense(s), in which case it will help out. And as a turtle, there's a high chance it will get Shell Smash. That's no guarantee, however, as we've seen with Blastoise. And Shell Trap looks like a mixed bag. If it's just a Counter clone, I'll pass. My gut tells me it works differently, something along the lines of laying the trap that lasts multiple turns until the right move activates it. Also does it rebound damage like Counter or is it more like Powder?​

I'm not sure why people keep saying "turtle=high Shell Smash chance." Torkoal and Carracosta are the only turtle/tortoise Shell Smashers -and there's both a bunch of Shell Smashers that aren't turtles or tortoises and there's turtle/tortoise Pokemon that lack Shell Smash. (Torterra, Blastoise...) The bigger delineation for Shell Smash seems to be whether the shell is vaguely plausible to remove or not, and honestly Turtonator doesn't seem to fit that to me.

Shell Trap's description of setting a trap implies to me that it's a high-priority move that reacts the very instant the target impacts. (Certainly, the animation for "setting the trap" went before the Torkoal's turn, so it's either got Focus Punch-esque signaling or doesn't work like Counter/Mirror Coat in terms of turn ordering at all) If so, that means it's probably strongly relevant just for punishing... say, fakespeed. Especially if it's very high priority (+4, like Protect), and especially if it actually interrupts the attack just like Powder. (In general I suspect it's basically "Powder, but for Physical moves. Or possibly contact?) I have a suspicion it will be a Fire type move, which would be neat.

Turtonator itself seems likely to be a slow, bulky mixed attacker. Fire and Dragon both trend toward mixed offenses, while turtle/tortoise is why I'm guessing slow and bulky. (Physically bulky, specifically)

Marowak - Fire / Ghost | Cursed Body / Lightning Rod

If it can still benefit from Thick Club, V-create is really going to hurt lol.​

And it'll have Shadow Sneak regardless! Combine with a Trick Room setter, and it'll be nasty.

Core Enforcer - Learnt by Zygarde: Dragon | If the Pokémon it hits has already moved this turn, the Pokémon's Ability is removed.

I'm not sure what relevant Dragons will appreciate removing the target's ability, and relying on a move that activates its ability after the target has moved isn't all that appealing. On top of that Dragons want to be fast and/or boost with Dragon Dance. Unless it has a better BP than Dragon Claw and decent accuracy it's not going to be common.​

Vaporizing the target's Ability is huge for hurting all kinds of Pokemon. Many of the best Pokemon in STABmons are leaning on an Ability to get there. It's just too bad it's probably a Dragon move and so won't be a way to break Sylveon's Pixilate.

I'm also not sure why you seem to be assuming it doesn't function like Analytic in terms of treating a switch as having moved first. Being able to wipe a switch-in's Ability can mess with a lot of checks. Sableye is a hugely relevant force for doing things like dropping Will O Wisp on Physical attackers and then Parting Shotting out, and Core Enforcer, if it's not locked to Zygarde or anything, is liable to cripple Sableye's ability to directly switch into those Dragons it can currently switch into plausibly. Or you can do stuff like have Garchomp Core Enforcer Mega Sableye on the switch in and then put up your Stealth Rock they were expecting to bounce. That kind of utility is potentially very good.

Fleur Cannon - Learnt by Magearna: Fairy | Draco Meteor clone.

Our resident Fairy nuke, Sylveon, will stick to Boomburst thankyouverymuch. In general, Fairies have access to Moonblast, which is more reliable and has a great secondary effect. Probably won't see much use.​

Sadly, no Fairy type currently has native access to Focus Energy.

Theoretically Sylveon might run Focus Energy Fleur Cannon, at least if Shell Smash remains banned and Sylveon unbanned. Maybe. Probably not, but it's a possibility, for all that it's weaker than Pixilated Boomburst. It's conceivable some Special Defense-raising wall might prove able to shrug in the face of Boomburst. Or a Soundproof 'mon, though I'm not getting my hopes up and anyway Techno Blast is still stronger than Fleur Cannon after Pixilate.

Shell Trap - Learnt by Turtonator: Fire | Sets a trap whereby if the user is hit by a Physical attack, the attacker is hit by an explosion that deals much greater damage.

So I'm dubious on how this move will work exactly. Does it stay on the field until it's activated? Will it go away after one turn? A few turns? Does it deal set damage like Powder or a percentage of the damage taken like Counter or some other new calculation? Heatran may use it with its good bulk and resistances, but it generally prefers King's Shield to punish physical attackers. On paper it sounds intriguing (like Powder did last gen) but in practice I have a feeling it's too niche to be useful.​

I'm not finding any evidence of its typing actually being known for certain.

The description "much greater damage" implies to me that it scales to the attack's strength.

Also note that King's Shield cannot be spammed turn after turn. This can lead to mis-predicts where you use King's Shield while they set up, and then a second King's Shield is essentially guaranteed to fail. If Shell Trap lacks that issue, it might be a good way of turning such encounters from "one mispredict equals defeat" to "one mispredict turns into a series of 50/50s." Depending on PP, it might even be able to outright stall some threats to the point that they have to switch or trigger the trap.

Or it could work some other way. We'll have to wait and see.

Thousand Waves - Learnt by Zygarde: Ground | Prevents Pokémon from fleeing.

It's a Ground-type Infestation but stronger. Cool but why do Ground-types need to trap anything?​
... unless Gen VII has changed Thousand Waves, its trapping doesn't do damage, and doesn't time out. That's not Infestation at all.

Comatose: Basically Immunity, Limber, Magma Armour and Water Veil in one. Could be cool, but Magic Bounce will still probably be better
Magic Bounce doesn't protect from Scald, Zap Cannon, Inferno, Sacred Fire, etc. They cover largely different roles, so I'm not sure why you're comparing them.

Soul Heart: Special Moxie. Could be good for fast special sweepers like Volcarona and Keldeo, although they might prefer Magic Guard and Adaptability, respectively
I ran Storm Drain Volcarona, personally. I found it a lot more useful of an Ability than ignoring Stealth Rock, because Stealth Rock isn't its only problem and anyway tons of things can KO it easily regardless of whether Stealth Rock rips it in half or not. People never seemed to question why I brought it out on their Water type, netting me a free +1 while I Quiver Danced. A lot of teams just can't stop Volcarona at that point, and often I could Giga Drain the health back.

Keldeo actually probably does like Soul Heart a lot, just because it's not that hard to place the enemy in situations where they need to win the predict or end up losing a Pokemon, and +1 to Special Attack is stronger than Adaptability's boost. Even if you Calm Mind before hitting things, +2 is the same degree of boost over +1 as Adaptability is.

Soul Heart is also potentially interesting for certain mixed attackers, actually.

Battery: Useless in Singles
Not necessarily. Aroma Veil applies to the user in addition to allies. If Battery boosts the user in addition to allies, it might have a niche.

Triage: Eh, inferior Prankster. Pass. Unless it also works on moves like Giga Drain
... you don't want the ability to A: heal in the face of -ated Extreme Speeds and the like and B: better control your turn timing?

Wimp Out: Could be decent on some offensive Pokémon, but like Stakeout it still faces stiff competition from the Big 4 offensive abilities.
Suicide leads.

Dancer: Not very good in Singles, so I don't think it'll get much use
Whu-

Where do you get that idea? Being able to copy Swords Dance all by itself is liable to be meta-influential in a big way. The doubles utility of copying an ally in a controlled manner isn't there in a singles context, yes, but Dancer has plenty of potential utility in singles -and that's if no new dancing moves get spread around that are powerful and influential. I wouldn't count it out.

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Water Compaction: Raise Defense 2 stages when struck by a Water type move.

Going by the video, it looks to me like this does not impart immunity. If it does impart immunity, then that's kind of cool. Something like AAA Volcarona with Water Compaction would be neat in that scenario, making it harder for Gale Wings to revenge it and the like.

But it looks like it doesn't provide immunity, so it seems likely to be a fairly dubious Ability, especially since the majority of good Water type attackers are Special anyway. I mean, I guess one might consider something like AAA Chansey running it?... or you could run Stamina for more consistent results.

Really, unless Water Compaction provides immunity, it's going to tend to be overshadowed by Stamina, period.
 
Being able to copy Swords Dance if you predict correctly could be good I'll grant you, but it could still easily backfire. Personally I'd rather run a less prediction reliant ability.
 
I'd like to try and address some questions about Z-Moves, as well as a rather important assumption that most people seem to be making so far. Before I do, though, here's a couple things I thought of: first, Wobbufett might make for the best user of Innards Out in AAA, due to its high HP, low defenses, and low speed. To me, Innards Out seems to complement any CounterCoat set well, providing a contingency in case the Pokemon would be KO'd before it can retaliate. Second, considering how similar Z-Crystals seem to be to Mega Stones, there's a good chance that they may share "stickiness." If that turns out to be the case, BH and other formats could see Mail return with a vengeance; a minor change, to be sure, but noteworthy nonetheless. I know that's speculation, but it seems pretty likely to me.

Now, the question of whether Pokemon will be able to learn Z-Moves in Sketchmons has come up a few times, and I'd like to address it. It is my understanding that, in Sketchmons, every Pokemon learns Sketch exactly once, and may use it to Sketch any new move they like, with the exception of certain banned moves. It seems to me that this would inherently disallow the learning of moves that cannot normally be Sketched, namely Chatter and Struggle. Again, this is just speculation, but there is a very high chance that Z-Moves cannot be Sketched in the game, and therefore would be automatically off-limits in Sketchmons. That said, Sketch does allow Pokemon to learn moves of every type, so they'll still have access to any Z-Move they want; they'll just need the crystal to use it.

Of course, there's still the question of how Z-Moves work in metas like BH that lack the artificial restrictions of Sketch. From what we've seen of them in the footage released during the recent Worlds stream, they do appear to work like regular moves, in that they occupy a moveslot. Until I saw that footage, I would have suggested that they weren't like ordinary moves at all, but merely special damage calculations, like the damage caused by the Confusion status. However, with this new information, I'd say it's still up in the air as to whether or not Z-Moves can be hacked into a moveslot (and actually work when used). I'm only mentioning this because I don't want anyone assuming that they will work, and being unpleasantly surprised to find that they crash the game on use, or something.

More importantly, I'd like to address the assumption that Gen 7 will still have Mega Evolution, something that has yet to be questioned. I will admit, this is definitely the most speculative thing about this post, but I think that to make such a huge assumption without any confirmation is equally felonious, if not more so. One only needs to look at the sheer size of the first post in this thread to see how much information has already been leaked, and it only contains competitively relevant information. What's striking is what's been missing in the titanic amount of leaked information: Mega Evolution. It has not been shown in any battles, mentioned in any in-game dialog, or even officially alluded to in any way, shape, or form. Many people have argued that Mega Evolution was on of the biggest selling points of X&Y, and that Game Freak wouldn't get rid of it, but consider this: if it's such an important part of the game, and so necessary to selling copies, why haven't they hyped it at all? Surely such a massive selling point wouldn't be taken for granted, would it? To be fair, the game doesn't come out for another 3 months, so it's entirely possible that they simply haven't gotten around to it yet, and the lack of evidence for is hardly evidence against, but I wouldn't waste my time writing all that if I didn't have anything more concrete. The first, and strongest evidence against Sun and Moon having Mega Evolution are Z-Moves. To start, the two have many similarities: they both require the player-character to equip a special accessory, they both require a special held item to activate, they both may only be activated once per battle (even if more than one Pokemon on the team is holding the required item), and they both require that the player select a special button in the move-selection menu before choosing a move. To me, this alone is enough to make the possibility of Z-Moves replacing Mega Evolution a very real one, but there's more. In the gameplay demonstration, the Z-Move button is shown to take up quite a large portion of the move-selection menu, enough that it would be impossible, or at the very least extremely impractical, to squeeze the Mega Evolution button into the same menu. Luckily, that wouldn't be a problem, because since Z-Moves and Mega Evolution each require different held items, their respective buttons could easily be programmed to occupy the same space. Unluckily, Rayquaza can, theoretically, hold a Z-Crystal—perhaps the one associated with the Flying type—and also know the move Dragon Ascent, which would therefore allow it to both. It's possible that Game Freak may have planned for this extraordinarily specific situation and programmed in a special UI with both buttons in the same menu, or that the two actions may only be performed on different turns, with one button replacing the other after its use. These, to me, seem unlikely, but they do poke some holes in what was already a less-than-airtight argument, so they're worth mentioning. My other point is the existence of Alola Formes. They appear to serve exactly the same purpose that Mega Evolution did in Gen 6: to create distinct variations on existing Pokemon. It seems odd to me that Game Freak would create the concept of Alola Formes alongside that of Mega Evolution, instead of simply sticking to the latter. I must, then, come to the conclusion that Mega Evolution would prove too redundant to include in the same game as Alola Formes and Z-Moves.

Again, this is only speculation, but my goal is not to convince anyone that Mega Evolutions won't appear in the upcoming games, or to make any predictions about how this will impact any metas. Instead, I only want present this as a very real possibility, and explain why we should not take Mega Evolution for granted.
 
I think that Sun and Moon might fail to introduce any new Mega Evolutions, which is why we haven't seen any info, but I'd say there's a zero percent chance that existing Megas get removed. Gen 6 had the smallest number of new mons by far, which I think was most likely due to Mega Evolutions serving as "new Pokemon" in their own right -- there will never be regular evolutions to Mawile or Audino because their Megas serve that purpose. As such, ditching Megas would be like discontinuing support for, say, all of Gen 2 Pokemon. That makes no sense.
 
In addition to that, Game Freak is very shy about retconning and/or removing Pokemon. Not the series, but the Pokemon and things about themselves. For example, a lot of alternate forms would function better as Megas/Primals, but they're still esoteric forms with esoteric means of access. New evolutions to existing Pokemon always have some weird mechanic to explain its existence and why it wasn't available before. Incenses are thrown in so you can still breed Pokemon that got new babies. So on and so forth. Rather than take the simpler route of just changing things, they jump through hoops, and make us jump through hoops, so they don't have to change it, regardless of how much sense it'd make to do so.

The only retcons made were typings for Dark, Steel, and Fairy additions, Gen VI BST changes, and changing some unreleased Hidden Abilities. And I suppose movepool updates and ability additions count too.


Although, on the off chance if they did remove Megas and Primals, that'd be a bigger change to our metas than all the rest of Gen VII, IMO. But... no point on speculating about rumors.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Vaporizing the target's Ability is huge for hurting all kinds of Pokemon. Many of the best Pokemon in STABmons are leaning on an Ability to get there. It's just too bad it's probably a Dragon move and so won't be a way to break Sylveon's Pixilate.

I'm also not sure why you seem to be assuming it doesn't function like Analytic in terms of treating a switch as having moved first. Being able to wipe a switch-in's Ability can mess with a lot of checks. Sableye is a hugely relevant force for doing things like dropping Will O Wisp on Physical attackers and then Parting Shotting out, and Core Enforcer, if it's not locked to Zygarde or anything, is liable to cripple Sableye's ability to directly switch into those Dragons it can currently switch into plausibly. Or you can do stuff like have Garchomp Core Enforcer Mega Sableye on the switch in and then put up your Stealth Rock they were expecting to bounce. That kind of utility is potentially very good.

I'm assuming it only removes the target's ability that turn, not the length that it's active.

You say "I'm not sure why you" a lot. :p
 
Who knows! Why does Shell Trap announce ahead of time it's laying a trap? Why is Crabrawler mono Fighting? Why is Alolan Exeggutor part Dragon? Stranger things have happened.
That argument doesn't really hold water, though. We have a reason to suspect those: that they are shown to be the case. For core enforcer, not only would that be a useless effect, it also runs contrary to all other ability effecting moves, including the ability effecting attacks (smack down, thousand arrows, skill swap, worry seed, role play, simple beam).

I mean, we don't know for certain that it won't be one turn, but that's no reason to assume it will be.
 
Who knows! Why does Shell Trap announce ahead of time it's laying a trap? Why is Crabrawler mono Fighting? Why is Alolan Exeggutor part Dragon? Stranger things have happened.
I can't say why Shell Trap announces, but Crabrawler is Mono Fighting because it's likely based on coconut crabs, which aren't aquatic. Exeggutor-A is based on the Dragon palm, which likely explains its typing.
 
It's also possible Core Enforcer behaves like Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam, except for faster Pokemon only, and Game Freak, for whatever reason, decided to word it weirdly. Also wouldn't be the first time there.
 
Double posting but... new stuff.

Dark/Normal Ratatta. I dunno stuff about metas where Ratatta and Raticate are viable but... STAB-Crunch and Sucker Punch for them finally. It also has Gluttony and Hustle as its regular abilities.

Also, the new trailer shows a full Z-move in action, including damage. Now we don't know the Snorlax's level, so no idea if its been tweaked to OHKO the level 50 Gumshoos. Whose BST we also don't know. But, it does kill my idea of percentage-based damage. Also, Raichu and Snorlax explicitly have their own moves. And Snorlax needs a "Snorlium-Z" to use it. This raises a few questions. Are Z-moves species specific like megas? If so, will they be hardcoded to require their stone and/or species? Or are only some species-specific and others type-specific?

If any hardcoding is the case, I suspect Z-moves will have little impact on BH and CH. Unless legendaries get them (Alola legendaries being likely cases), in which case some will be seen. From a non-OM standpoint though, it'd be interesting to see some Pokemon getting megas and others Z-moves.



Also, though not directly related to the now, if there's leaks in the future before release, will they be allowed to discuss in this thread? If so, could they be regulated to spoiler tags? I'd hate to have to poof from the topic since I prefer to avoid leaks.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Using Pathetic Pancake and watching your opponent laugh until they time out legitimate strategy or no?

Hustle Raticate might actually make it past PU, and might be a fun Mon to inherit from. in inheritance.. Maybe. Or it will be 100% trash.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Raticate (assuming its gets an Alolan forme with identical typing) wont make a splash in anything really, as PU isnt an Other Metagame anymore.

Snorlax getting its own Z-Move sounds nice. Still wont use it.
 
Provided it has decent enough stats, it could maybe be pretty okay in Tier Shift, provided it's PU. I don't really think Snorlax having its own signature Z-Move will affect its viability that much, due to Z-Crystals taking up the item slot, and it could run more useful items for it like Leftovers. I'm probably not going to use Z-Moves that much in general, because it's better to have an item that can last the entire battle over just a one-turn nuke, imo.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
+2 252 Atk Guts Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 285-336 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

(unchanged BST)
Wanted to give an indication of Raticate's power. Of course, you also have perfect coverage, and Espeed in STABmons/Sketchmons. If you're gutsy (ironic, really), you can run Hustle, which hits stupidly hard:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Raticate Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 370-437 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 363-426 (106.4 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

97 isn't even a bad speed tier.
 

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