Duo Destruction - Awards!

[Heysup]

Does our core automatically lose if we get Roared? I mean nothing besides some obscure Mr Mime Jr can switch into Roar and not get roared out. If it roars, does it go to our other Pokemon? Is it just there so that we can't set up?

Or should we just explain what happens if it Roars and we switch back in?

 

[Ray Jay]

Does our core automatically lose if we get Roared? I mean nothing besides some obscure Mr Mime Jr can switch into Roar and not get roared out. If it roars, does it go to our other Pokemon? Is it just there so that we can't set up?

Or should we just explain what happens if it Roars and we switch back in?

Roar is mostly there to reduce the chances that you are able to set up and also to almost guarantee that Hippopotas can get up Stealth Rock. If your Pokemon can't get Roared around a bit (ie, Larvesta) then your core could get called into question very easily. But no, if you get roared, you don't automatically lose. I would like a sentence or two explaining what happens if you get roared to a certain Pokemon, but it's not required.

 

[Heysup]

I guess also technically if we can't KO Hippopotas he can just spam Roar while we we keep switching back to our Hippo counter until a mon dies from SR.....

 

[Heysup]

Exeggcute (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Def / 232 SAtk / 36 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Reflect
- Sunny Day

Snover (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 36 HP / 24 Atk / 36 Def / 184 SAtk / 200 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Ice Shard
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Timburr is in:

Turn 1.
Timburr uses Bulk Up (SS) (1)
Egg switches in, takes SR/SS (3 total?)

Doesn't matter if you reflect here because that will still give him 3 turns to hit you with his Pay Back and you'll die and a +1 Mach Punch still does a lot to Snover with Reflect (and it can wear out in time for SS'd Drilbur to Rock Slide as well).

If you use Psychic before Giga Drain you lose because you barely Giga Drain anything back.

Turn 2.
Egg uses Giga Drain (7 Avg + SS)
Timburr uses Payback (16 Average + SS)
Timburr @ 16 HP
Egg @ 6 HP

Turn 3.
Timburr uses Mach Punch (2 average)
Egg uses Psychic (18 avg) + SS)
Timburr @ Dead

Turn 4.
Drilbur comes in, uses SClaw
egg @ dead
Snover comes in.

Turn 5.
Hippopotas comes in, gets OHKOed.
Snover @ max -1

Turn 6.
Drilbur comes in, Rock Slide
Snover @ dead.

Tell me if I'm missing anything.

I think a simpler Egg set works better, well actually I'm certain there is a working set.

 

[Chieliee]

doesn't psychic just ohko timburr

if not i can put more spatk ev's in it

and iirc payback didn't do that much

+2 shadow claw from drilbur did 52% max sooo

 

[Heysup]

Nope. I don't even think Modest does and you're already at max SpA.

Psychic:

232 SpAtk Exeggcute Psychic vs 76 HP/236 SpDef Eviolite Timburr (+SpDef) : 60% - 84%
2 hits to KO

Possible HP Damage: 15, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 21

+1 Payback:

196 +1 Atk Timburr Payback vs 36 HP/196 Def Eviolite Exeggcute (+Def) : 60.87% - 78.26%
2 hits to KO

Possible HP Damage: 14, 14, 14, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18

+2 Shadow Claw:

236 +2 Atk Life Orb Drilbur (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 36 HP/196 Def Eviolite Exeggcute (+Def) : 78.26% - 95.65%
2 hits to KO

Possible HP Damage: 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22

 

[Chieliee]

for one, eggy will never face +2 drilbur.

Vs Timburr, I can use Reflect turn 1, then Giga Drain, then Psychic.

If they keep Drilbur by switching into Timburr when I Giga Drain, they won't even have a shot at using Payback. If they use Rock slide when i switch in Snover, I can use Sunny Day turn one followed by two Psychics. Hippo can then come in to get up sand again, but Giga drain will do enough to make me live one Shadow Claw from Drilbur.

 

[Heysup]

The +2 Shadow Claw calc was just to show that your claim that +2 Shadow Claw does 52 max.

Timburr is better off using Payback, but he still wins either way.

Turn 1:
Timbur Payback (6)
Stealth Rock + SS (3)
Egg @ 14 EDIT: DERP MATH

turn 2:
Reflect
payback (6) (BP now 100) + SS
Egg @ 7

Turn 3:
Giga Drain (7) +3
Payback (6) + SS
Egg @ 3 HP
Timbur @ Psychic KO range

Turn 4:
Mach Punch (1) + SS)
Egg Psychic (KO)

Turn 5.
Drilbur uses Shadow Claw
Koes.

Unless, of course, I'm actually missing something...

 

[Chieliee]

hmm yeah the core loses if timburr predicts the eggy switch in and uses payback. (unless you win predict war and switch in eggy on bulk up or preferably drain punch.

Also: Turn 1:
Timbur Payback (6)
Stealth Rock + SS (3)
Egg @ 12

23-6-3=14??

 

[Ray Jay]

Remember that this round, cores that seem impractical or irrelevant will not score!

This round will end Monday night! (probably)

 

[Chieliee]

oh, i think sunny day/reflect exeggcute is not relevant

fuck

EDIT:

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace
EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Slowpoke (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Oblivious
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Def / 252 SAtk / 36 SDef
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Surf
- Psychic
- Slack Off
- Trick Room

is this viable?

if Timburr is out: Switch in Porygon, set up set up TR, if still alive spam psychic. Then switch in Slowpoke and spam psychic/surf. If pory is dead before it set up tr, then set up tr with slowpoke

If drilbur is out: See above.

If hippo is out: see above

idk if this works, too lazy to calc/think too much about it

EDIT: oh furai reserved slowpoke :(

 

[iss]

Cottonee @ Eviolite
Bold | Prankster
evs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpA / 36 Spe
- Cotton Guard
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Wrecks the shit out of everything with Cotton Guard. Crits aren't that much of a problem, as the only troublesome one is Timburr's Drain Punch, which only does 60% on a crit- simply not enough to break through Rest unless it gets multiple crits. Everything else does a pittance- +2 Drilbur does only 25% with Rock Slide, while Giga Drain will usually OHKO back after a Life Orb recoil. Hippopotas gets smacked around- it can Roar, but Giga Drain is a guaranteed 2HKO. Timburr simply will not win in the long run. Charm is there to mitigate Timburr's Bulk Up so it can't crit for over 60%. Leech Seed is pretty much the only viable alternative.

You should have enough healing between Leech Seed and Giga Drain to win anyways. This is to make the set more competitively viable. Although
this makes Timburr crits slightly more problematic, you're taking less hits due to Protect.

 

[blarajan]

Remember that this round, cores that seem impractical or irrelevant will not score!

This round will end Monday night! (probably)

gg iss

 

[iss]

uhh it is Monday night?? also this is fairly practical

 

[blarajan]

Iss, I would suggest that you reevaluate your set. While I understand you want to counter the core to the best of your ability, I think your selection of moves veers towards the impractical that RayJay alluded to. The particular move I am referring to is Charm, and maybe even Rest. Cottonee would not be running Rest unless it's CERTAIN nothing could kill it, and no Pokemon ever runs Charm. Cotton Guard Cottonee is a great idea, though I think you should tone down on those moves.

edit: I'm going to post mine within soon so RAYJAY DON'T END THE ROUND

 

[Ray Jay]

Most people haven't done their submissions yet. I'm extending the round until Wednesday night.

 

[blarajan]

Chikorita (F) @ Eviolite Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 236 HP / 156 Def / 44 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
- Counter

This thing legitimately shits all over Sand as a whole. Too good.

Worst case scenario: Switch into Drilbur who uses Swords Dance, and then trainer goes to Timburr after that.

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Drilbur (+Atk) Rock Slide vs 236 HP/156 Def Eviolite Chikorita: 54.17% - 62.5%
Possible HP Damage: 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15

Chikorita switches into Stealth Rock and loses HP from Sand, and is at 21. Then Drilbur gets a max damage Rock Slide, and I am down to 6. It takes HP from Life Orb, and is down to 21.

44 SpAtk Chikorita (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Drilbur: 95.45% - 122.73%
Possible HP Damage: 21, 21, 21, 21, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 27

Chikorita then OHKOes Drilbur, and gains back 10 HP from Giga Drain, and is up to 16. She then loses 1 from Sand and is at 15.

Trainer brings in Timburr.

Chikorita uses Sunny Day as Timburr...uses Drain Punch?

196 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs 236 HP/156 Def Eviolite Chikorita: 29.17% - 37.5%
Possible HP Damage: 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9

Chikorita is at 8. Then, Synthesis? While Timburr uses Bulk Up. Chikorita gains 16 and goes up to 24. Timburr has to be at +5 to have a chance at OHKOing Chikorita, and needs to be a bit lucky.

Possible HP Damage: 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27, so odds of OHKOing at full health are less than 50%.

Still, you have up until +4 to wreck Timburr with COUNTER.

44 SpAtk Chikorita (+SpAtk) Giga Drain vs 76 HP/236 SpDef Eviolite Timburr (+SpDef) : 24% - 28%
Possible HP Damage: 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7

Which is a 4HKO.

196 +1 Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs 236 HP/156 Def Eviolite Chikorita: 37.5% - 50%
Possible HP Damage: 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12

That's one Bulk Up. Notice how even if Timburr hits min damage with that +1 Drain Punch, and Chikorita uses Counter, Timburr DIES from the next Giga Drain.

We're currently at 24 HP, and no Timburr is going to wait until it gets to +4 before it uses Drain Punch here. Generally they'll hit at +1, +2 at the most. Also, it's easy to force Timburr to Drain Punch, as it'll need to gain HP to offset your Giga Drain. Either Giga Drain it to death, or Counter at those times. It's not hard to do at all.

Then Timburr dies, and Hippopotas is 2HKOed by Giga Drain while doing absolutely nothing in return with Earthquake.

Perfect victory!

YES I KNOW if Drilbur flinches with Rock Slide, then this is a loss. But, this is the absolute worst case path, and the worst case path requires hax to lose. Otherwise, Chikorita wins without risk every time. So, I think this is a pretty damn good counter! And Chikorita is so fucking cute I don't even care.

 

[iss]

What if Timburr Bulks Up on Counter turns? You need pretty good prediction to win.

 

[Heysup]

@ both of your single-mon cores:

You can't deal with Roar. The 2 mon cores will eventually get shifted to one of the Pokemon and thus they both need to actually counter Hippopotas, I'm sure Ray Jay had thought of this when he put Roar on Hippopotas. Your Pokemon do counter Hippopotas but not if you keep switching into Stealth Rock and getting Roar spammed out.

Saying "it'll eventually get a Pokemon that also beats Hippopotas" is only a valid argument if it's part of your core. If your only counter gets roared out, you get fucked. The only single mons that can beat this core technically are ones that are immune to Roar and I don't think any of those few Pokemon can actually do it.

In addition to this, both of those sets are absurdly impractical. For iss, I'm more concerned about Rest than Charm personally, but your set honestly doesn't need any of those moves. Use Sub / Leech Seed lol. Blarajan.....i mean......Defense Curl Foongus is more reasonable.

Specifically @ Blarajan:

You need WAY more prediction than you let on. I don't think Ray Jay will miss that you need to predict Giga Drain or Counter correctly every time after +1 or +2 because after +1 it always 2HKOes you and you only actually 5HKO Timburr with Giga Drain without Stealth Rock due to Sunny Day removing sand.

EDIT: still my first point to address

 

[iss]

I fixed my set already.

 

[Ray Jay]

@Heysup

I guess I'm going to have to rescind some of my comments about Hippopotas and Roar. Essentially, what you're suggesting is a situation in which Pokemon are constantly shuffled by Roar, but that's not necessarily representative of an actual in-game scenario. Hippopotas will not spam Roar every turn. While I do agree that if your poke can't 3hko Hippopotas you've got a problem, I don't think we should be so persnickety about a potential situation in which Hippopotas endlessly uses Roar. However, I will say that

Saying "it'll eventually get a Pokemon that also beats Hippopotas" is only a valid argument if it's part of your core.

is absolutely accurate.

 

[Trakyan]

I'm wondering why no one has called dibs on lileep yet, suction cups trolols at roar and giga drain murders half the core, i would us this is koffing wasnt already taken

 

[blarajan]

252 Atk Life Orb Drilbur (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Lileep (+Def) : 61.54% - 73.08%

is why

 

[Heysup]

@Heysup

I guess I'm going to have to rescind some of my comments about Hippopotas and Roar. Essentially, what you're suggesting is a situation in which Pokemon are constantly shuffled by Roar, but that's not necessarily representative of an actual in-game scenario. Hippopotas will not spam Roar every turn. While I do agree that if your poke can't 3hko Hippopotas you've got a problem, I don't think we should be so persnickety about a potential situation in which Hippopotas endlessly uses Roar. However, I will say that

is absolutely accurate.

If I have Stealth Rock up and the opponent has any Hippopotas counter I'm absolutely 100% spamming Roar until another Pokemon comes in that's threatening. I don't think that's an unrealistic scenario at all......the only unrealistic part is the fact that there won't be another threatening Pokemon and what I'm saying is that these one-mon cores don't have that option (as you agreed with).

My larger point still, is that the argument you agreed with and the one you disagreed with are basically one and the same. As you agreed with ""it'll eventually get a Pokemon that also beats Hippopotas" is only a valid argument if it's part of your core." If there is no other threatening part of the core, Roar is going to factually win against them. It can't actually counter it alone.

In the same way I'm certain you wouldn't accept my submission if it was just Hippopotas because it beats the whole core if I sacrifice any Pokemon to Drilbur. I can't say "I sacrifice something and bring in Hippopotas" because that something actually has to be part of the core.

Just because Roar is a non-directly damaging move doesn't mean we can ignore its full implications.

 

[iss]

That's sort of ridiculous though. If it's a last-mon scenario, Roar can't even be used. If you're suggesting that Hippopotas simply sits there and Roars, you're saying that our hypothetical player is stupid enough to continuously switch their counter into Roar. Hippopotas is unable to Roar forever, as attacks will certainly damage it while it attempts to Roar.