There isn't.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
DP Kabutops
- Thread starter twash
- Start date
Well yeah, but in the same vein as your Crawdaunt analysis, we are looking for them to be as complete as possible. If this set is effective (it is), it should go in the analysis. Just because the SD set is good, doesnt mean that this one is somehow going to waste its potential.
I understand what youre saying, I just don't really think its relevant to this set being added or not.
I think Waterfall, Stone Edge and a higher base Speed are the obvious reasons.
Hrm, touche...
Anyways, I think that you should drop Waterfall (in most cases, Surf hits harder) and use X-Scissor and Stone Edge, since the set lacks Ice Beam, being able to hit Altaria along with Grass types would be helpful.
Is there any time when you found yourself using Waterfall?
I'd imagine that's mainly for hitting Hypno and Grumpig, but the set could indeed be changed to:
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Hidden Power Grass
- Stone Edge / X-Scissor
As you'll still be hitting Hypno and Grumpig with either a STAB high power Rock-type move with a good chance to Crit, or a Super Effective X-Scissor.
However, I could be completely wrong here so it's down to Twash to explain why.
I agree with Havak. I think that in OU you seem to have better options for hitting all special based walls with either a STAB Stone Edge or X-Scizzor. Although Waterfall will do more due to rain, will it gain any extra important OHKOs? Or will it allow for an extra move to take down other pokemon. (People's first reaction when seeing Kabutops will not be to go to a special wall)
However, Waterfall is the main sweeping potential of this set. The reason that we have HP Grass is to get rid of Quagise so that it can sweep with waterfalls. The Idea of the set is to get rid of Kabutops Main counters with Specially based moves, and then sweep with Physical moves.
It appears that the only solution to this would be to add to the set comments that you Highly Reccomend running this with rain dance support, and not relying on Kabutops to do the Rain Dancing for you, as it wastes a valuable moveslot.
However, Waterfall is the main sweeping potential of this set. The reason that we have HP Grass is to get rid of Quagise so that it can sweep with waterfalls. The Idea of the set is to get rid of Kabutops Main counters with Specially based moves, and then sweep with Physical moves.
It appears that the only solution to this would be to add to the set comments that you Highly Reccomend running this with rain dance support, and not relying on Kabutops to do the Rain Dancing for you, as it wastes a valuable moveslot.
Ugh, just typed out loads..and it went and crashed -.-
Anyway, lets take Grumpig.
Life Orb Rain Dance STAB Waterfall: 85.71% - 100.82%
Life Orb Super-Effective X-Scissor: 76.92% - 90.66%
Neutral Waterfall would out damage Super-Effective X-Scissor, and provides more power. Although you lose coverage, you'll only mainly be hitting Meganium and Celebi with X-Scissor. Use Waterfall as the prime option and you get to hit the likes of Grumpig, Hypno, Mr. Mime, all harder.
On average, through damage calculations we could work out that as soon as a Pokémon Special Defense is 96.1% (rounded up) of its Defense, Waterfall will hit harder than Surf. Seeing as Defenses are normally more than 4%~ within each other, Waterfall will often, seriously outdamage Surf. You then need the extra power of Waterfall over X-Scissor.
Anyway, lets take Grumpig.
Life Orb Rain Dance STAB Waterfall: 85.71% - 100.82%
Life Orb Super-Effective X-Scissor: 76.92% - 90.66%
Neutral Waterfall would out damage Super-Effective X-Scissor, and provides more power. Although you lose coverage, you'll only mainly be hitting Meganium and Celebi with X-Scissor. Use Waterfall as the prime option and you get to hit the likes of Grumpig, Hypno, Mr. Mime, all harder.
On average, through damage calculations we could work out that as soon as a Pokémon Special Defense is 96.1% (rounded up) of its Defense, Waterfall will hit harder than Surf. Seeing as Defenses are normally more than 4%~ within each other, Waterfall will often, seriously outdamage Surf. You then need the extra power of Waterfall over X-Scissor.
So what you're saying is that this really is finding it hard dealing with "3 moveslot syndrome" Would my suggestion of "Nessecary Rain Support" really boost the effectivness of this set. Running Waterfall / Surf / Filler seriously damages the coverage of this set whereas running Surf / HP Grass / Filler seriously loses power.
Fact is, this set needs Rain Dance. That is why it is definitely listed. Note there are 3 options in the last part, and I said "Rain Dance goes in the last slot because it is vital to this set, but if you have support elsewhere", which shows people would probably pick up on this and have Rain Dance elsewhere. Quite frankly, Rain Dance doesn't waste a valuable moveslot, as it is what makes this set..
Were I to put Rain Dance last, it would suggest it isn't as important.
Maybe suggest "try to have Rain Dance elsewhere", and note of the extra coverage?
Were I to put Rain Dance last, it would suggest it isn't as important.
Maybe suggest "try to have Rain Dance elsewhere", and note of the extra coverage?
Yes. I guess thats what an analysis is. You have several options. It depends where coverage of certain threats are on your team. Or whether Kabutops is your sole means to an end on certain pokemon.
So Rain Dance can go in there if you don't need Stone Edge / X-Scizzor for some reason. A short discussion of the limitations with Rain Dance on the set would be nessecary.
So Rain Dance can go in there if you don't need Stone Edge / X-Scizzor for some reason. A short discussion of the limitations with Rain Dance on the set would be nessecary.
Added;
"Try to use Rain Dance elsewhere if possible though, for Stone Edge / X-Scissor's coverage will be greatly appreciated. Whichever move you drop means you will lose out against something, as without X-Scissor Meganium and Celebi wall the set, and without Stone Edge Altaria and Mantine will do the same. Venusaur and Vileplume won't take much from X-Scissor either, Stone Edge will be needed to do anything to these."
"Try to use Rain Dance elsewhere if possible though, for Stone Edge / X-Scissor's coverage will be greatly appreciated. Whichever move you drop means you will lose out against something, as without X-Scissor Meganium and Celebi wall the set, and without Stone Edge Altaria and Mantine will do the same. Venusaur and Vileplume won't take much from X-Scissor either, Stone Edge will be needed to do anything to these."
But the comments don't explain to me why I want Stone Edge, Waterfall, and more speed, rather than a much higher Special Attack stat.
Kabutops has a higher SpA than Omastar's Atk. High Speed allows you to outrun scarfed 289 Pokémon (as is mentioned), and while Kabutops can take down Physical walls, Omastar fails to take out many Special walls, such as Muk of whom you manage 36.47% - 43% to with max Attack. Also, you would probably need maximum Speed, dropping your Special Attack to a mere 266, whilst the SpA would be 240, and speed lower. Kabutops hits 309 Atk, 250 SpA, and better speed, as well as using a 95 base power move in comparison to 80.
If we were doing damage outputs,
Omastar, Rain Max Atk Life Orb Waterfall; 240 Atk vs 100 Def (80 base power): 400 - 472
Kabutops, Rain Max SpA Life Orb Surf; 250 Atk vs 100 Def (95 base power): 496 - 585
See the sizeable difference? Plus a more powerful Stone Edge as j7r said.
If we were doing damage outputs,
Omastar, Rain Max Atk Life Orb Waterfall; 240 Atk vs 100 Def (80 base power): 400 - 472
Kabutops, Rain Max SpA Life Orb Surf; 250 Atk vs 100 Def (95 base power): 496 - 585
See the sizeable difference? Plus a more powerful Stone Edge as j7r said.
They don't have to, its obvious.
I'm not sure why youre even bringing Omastar into this, since the analysis explains exactly why youre using all of the moves.
I don't think we should ever assume something is obvious in an analysis, unless it really is, like why a physical sweeper will run 252 Atk EVs (and even that is explained in some detail).
However, this isn't really one of those cases. Yes, Stone Edge is for Altaria and Grass-types. However, why shouldn't I use Omastar and cover those with Ice Beam? The analysis isn't really convincing me why going mixed with Kabutops is more useful than running an all-special Omastar.
However, this isn't really one of those cases. Yes, Stone Edge is for Altaria and Grass-types. However, why shouldn't I use Omastar and cover those with Ice Beam? The analysis isn't really convincing me why going mixed with Kabutops is more useful than running an all-special Omastar.
Ugh, again typed it out and it crashed.
This set reaches;
309 Atk / 250 SpA / 290 Spe
Omastar reaches;
240 Atk / 266 SpA / 209 Spe
That's why you shouldn't be running "Mixed Omastar". I don't think that really needs to be in the analysis though.
Next of all you may say, "Well I can just use Special Omastar". Does this really break its usual walls? No, have fun getting past Mantine, Lanturn etc whilst I easily just Surf Weezing, or HP Grass Quagsire to hell.
This set reaches;
309 Atk / 250 SpA / 290 Spe
Omastar reaches;
240 Atk / 266 SpA / 209 Spe
That's why you shouldn't be running "Mixed Omastar". I don't think that really needs to be in the analysis though.
Next of all you may say, "Well I can just use Special Omastar". Does this really break its usual walls? No, have fun getting past Mantine, Lanturn etc whilst I easily just Surf Weezing, or HP Grass Quagsire to hell.
