DP Kabutops

[twash]

I made this a while back in my UU team and it used to suprise the opponent well, but it didn't work JUST because of this. It worked as a sweeper anyway. To check it worked for other people I also got Caelum to test it, and he approved.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kabutops/

[SET]
name: Mixed Sweeper
move 1: Surf
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Rain Dance / Stone Edge / X-Scissor
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
EVs: 172 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kabutops' Special Attack isn’t spectacular, but it can be used to take out many common walls with rain support. When Rain Dance is set up, Surf will OHKO standard Skarmory and Weezing 79% of the time, with Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Grass will always OHKO standard Quagsire in UU, often opening a sweep.</p>

<p>With Rain Dance, Surf will easily OHKO many other physical walls in the UU metagame, such as Aggron and Steelix. Surf will do a minimum of 71% to Miltank, whilst a normal Life Orb Waterfall would top at 54%. Waterfall is here for physical rain-boosted STAB. Rain Dance goes in the last slot because it is vital to this set, but if you have support elsewhere Stone Edge will still OHKO Altaria and Mantine with Stealth Rock, who otherwise wall this set easily. X-Scissor, on the other hand will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU. Try to use Rain Dance elsewhere if possible though, for Stone Edge / X-Scissor's coverage will be greatly appreciated. Whichever move you drop means you will lose out against something, as without X-Scissor Meganium and Celebi wall the set, and without Stone Edge Altaria and Mantine will do the same. Venusaur and Vileplume won't take much from X-Scissor either, Stone Edge will be needed to do anything to these.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock support is vital, ensuring many OHKOs and 2HKOs. 84 Speed EVs outspeed Scarfed neutral base 95 Pokémon after Swift Swim.</p>

 

[Imran]

<p>Kabutops Special Attack isn’t spectacular, but it can be used to take out many common walls with Rain Support. When Rain Dance is set up Surf will OHKO standard Skarmory and Weezing 79% of the time, provided Stealth Rock is set up. Hidden Power Grass will always OHKO standard Quagsire in UU, often opening a sweep.</p>

<p>With Rain Dance, Surf will easily OHKO many other common physical walls in the UU Metagame, such as Aggron and Steelix. Surf will do a minimum of 71% to Miltank, whilst normally a Life Orb Waterfall would never 2HKO if Miltank has leftovers. Waterfall is here for <removed obvious> physical STAB. Rain Dance goes in the last slot because it is vital to this set, but if you have support elsewhere Stone Edge will still OHKO Altaria and Mantine with Stealth Rock, who otherwise wall <removed s> this set easily. However X-Scissor will often <removed still> 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dent on Celebi in OU.</p>

<p><removed> Stealth Rock support is vital, <removed as> it ensures many OHKOs and 2HKOs. 84 Speed EVs outspeed Scarfed neutral base 95 Pokémon after Swift Swim.</p>

Mostly subjective changes. Make them if you feel like it :D

 

[twash]

Cheers. Made most of them with a couple of twists on your changes.

Also, I didn't put in the never 2HKO if Miltank has leftovers as I want some kind of "comparison" to the standard Kabutops, as well as 54+54=108, -6.25 = 101.75%, so there is still a chance that you can 2HKO Miltank, plus many of my 2HKOs went off Stealth Rock, and you could 2HKO Miltank with SR.

 

[Serv]

but it can be used to take out many common walls with with Rain support.

Remove the extra "with" please.

However X-Scissor will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dent on Celebi in OU.

"X-Scissor on the other will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU."

Thanks have a nice day ^^.

~edit:
Whoops my mistake I meant "X-Scissor on the other hand will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU." I forgot "hand" sorry x(.

 

[twash]

Thanks, updated.

 

[Imran]

~edit:
Whoops my mistake I meant "X-Scissor on the other hand will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU." I forgot "hand" sorry x(.

This should read:

"X-Scissor, on the other hand, will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU."

Added 2 commas for cleaner reading.

 

[twash]

Lol, added.

 

[jumpluff]

I made this a while back in my UU team and it used to suprise the opponent well, but it didn't work JUST because of this. It worked as a sweeper anyway. To check it worked for other people I also got Caelum to test it, and he approved.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kabutops/

[SET]
name: Mixed Sweeper
move 1: Surf
move 2: Hidden Power Grass
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Rain Dance / Stone Edge / X-Scissor
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
nature: Rash
EVs: 172 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kabutops' Special Attack isn’t spectacular, but it can be used to take out many common walls with rain support. When Rain Dance is set up, Surf will OHKO standard Skarmory and Weezing 79% of the time with Stealth Rock. Hidden Power Grass will always OHKO standard Quagsire in UU, often opening a sweep.</p>

Repetition of 'set up'

<p>With Rain Dance, Surf will easily OHKO many other physical walls in the UU metagame, such as Aggron and Steelix. Surf will do a minimum of 71% to Miltank, whilst normally a Life Orb Waterfall would top at 54%. Waterfall is here for physical <no comma> rain-boosted STAB. Rain Dance goes in the last slot because it is vital to this set, but if you have support elsewhere Stone Edge will still OHKO Altaria and Mantine with Stealth Rock, who otherwise wall this set easily. X-Scissor, on the other hand will often 2HKO Meganium, and seriously dents Celebi in OU.</p>

<p>Stealth Rock support is vital, ensuring many OHKOs and 2HKOs. 84 Speed EVs outspeed Scarfed neutral base 95 Pokémon after Swift Swim.</p>

You got a Mixed Kabutops to work? I'm impressed =o

 

[twash]

Cheers misaki, and congratulations for badge! (:

 

[Bourbon]

Is Surf really that necessary? I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but Rain Dance LO Waterfall already guaranteed 2HKOs Weezing. Aggron and Steelix will get their heads bashed in by it as well. Skarmory has a 60% chance of falling with Stealth Rock and Leftovers.

Surf is sort of... well, redundant. I would put Ice Beam instead, for those Grass types. If you don't like that, then only have Hidden Power Grass. It wouldn't be too terrible to only have one special attack. Lucario packs HP Ice for Gliscor, right? I dunno, this sort of screams "gimmick" to me. Sort of like Choice Specs Gyarados. Trying to utilize Kabutops base 65 Special Attack instead of his base 115 Attack...? With 252 EVs, a boosting nature and a Life Orb it tops out at 326 Special Attack. Bleh.

 

[twash]

Surf is here because it often OHKOs these, instead of 2HKOing. You would need to keep maximum SpA so your Attack would be hindered, so you wouldn't 2HKO Skarmory (and probably not Weezing, though I haven't checked this).

Surf OHKOs these most of the time with SR. This is why it's used - to smash in physical walls. It's designed to hit from both sides of the spectrum and Surf is the main reason for this.

 

[Metric]

Nice set.

One thing;

Rain Dance goes in the last slot because it is vital to this set

Shouldn't that mean Rain Dance would actually go in the first slot since the moves are supposed listed in order of importance?

 

[twash]

I put it in the last slot because it is the move which could be swapped for other moves, as you can have other means of setting up Rain Dance in your team..

IIRC, the most slashes should go at the bottom.

 

[Bourbon]

Personally I think it's a collosal waste. It's interesting, sure, but a regular Kabutops can do all this and more, except for killing Quagsire.

Quagsire is still 2HKOed by Hidden Power Grass with no EVs at all. And OHKOing the physical walls doesn't matter, because you can outrun and kill them in two hits with Waterfall in the first place.

This is like using Heat Wave Swellow. Sure, you could have a Swellow with a Life Orb and a lot of Special Attack EVs, so you could 2HKO Steelix with it, but is it worth the time? No, probably not. When you are dumbing down the effectiveness of a set this much all to get a kill on Quagsire, it's not worth it.

Like I said before. Standard Kabutops already deals with Aggron, Steelix, Skarmory, Miltank... everything you listed, it can kill. And you act like these pokemon can tank hits from Kabutops. They can't. Every one is dealt with by Waterfalls.

If you are that bent on putting Hidden Power Grass on it, the Swords Dance or Rain Dance sets can have the option added in the set comments, saying it can be used to 2HKO Quagsire.

 

[twash]

..=\

What good is 2HKOing Quagsire if you Waterfall on the switch, then Hidden Power Grass fails to OHKO? What good is Stone Edging Weezing, then using Waterfall, failing to KO and being KOd by Thunderbolt?

It eases prediction and changes many 2HKOs to OHKOs.

so you could 2HKO Steelix with it, but is it worth the time? No, probably not. When you are dumbing down the effectiveness of a set this much all to get a kill on Quagsire, it's not worth it.

I'm mainly talking OHKOs here, not 2HKOs. It's not just Quagsire it is many other things as I have stated already, and you have, such as Skarmory and Weezing.

This set provides a good chance of many OHKOs (especially in UU), instead of some of the 2HKOs (or unlikely 2HKOs to guarunteed) normal Kabutops is getting and you are saying no?

Lets see, just as an example in more depth. The opponent clearly has say, Ninetales out against your 252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Kabutops in the rain. They go to their Miltank and takes a clear 46.45% - 54.82% from Waterfall. With Leftovers, you only have a 6.97% chance to 2HKO. With my set, Waterfall then Surf would KO.

Your argument seems a bit like, "Why use Thunderbolt on Electivire when Life Orb ThunderPunch 2HKOs?"

I hope I have explained myself enough. By the way, have you tried this set Skiddle?

 

[Bourbon]

I have tried regular Rain Dance Kabutops, and I can honestly say that it works perfectly fine without using half of it's EV's and a nature boost in Special Attack. Base 65 SpA is just plain terrible.

That Electivire argument is terrible. People use Thunderbolt because for one, Electivire doesn't have base 65 Special Attack, and also, unlike Kabutops, there is a slight risk of Electivire getting burned.

And Miltank dies no matter what if it takes Stealth Rock damage, which you conveniently used in your Surf calculation, but left out in the Waterfall one.


OK, maybe I am being a little harsh. It's an interesting set, I just don't think it's serious enough to warrant a spot on the Analysis.

I mean, check this out:

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Lonely Nature
212 ATK / 152 SpA / 144 Spe

Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Hidden Power Bug

2HKOs Celebi, outruns Gengar after a Dragon Dance, still has 372 attack to work with.

Swellow @ Life Orb
Naive Nature
160 Atk / 252 SpA / 96 Spe

Facade
Heatwave
U-Turn
Aerial Ace / Quick Attack / Pursuit

2HKOs Steelix with Heatwave. Switch into Toxic or Will O Wisp to get Guts boost, then sweep after Steelix is gone.




See, I essentially did the same thing. They are cool, and they work, but are they really worth a slot on the analysis?! Gyarados can get past Celebi by using Ice Fang. Swellow can't really get past Steelix any other way, but it's Speed and Attack stats are compromised.

 

[twash]

I didn't need to add Stealth Rock to my Surf calculation on Miltank, minimum damage at 71%.

Just as an idea, I did a damage calc, my Kabutops in the rain's Surf V Thunderbolt from LO max Electivire, on a 100 SpD / 500 HP Pokémon (just to see damage output).
66.2% - 78.2% - Kabutops
56% - 66.2% - Electivire

So you can see, it is a sizeable difference, my Electivire argument wasn't worthless. With my set Kabutops also has way higher Speed (though Motor Drive is nice, I outspeed any neutral nature by 1 point Motor Drive +1 V the rain. Overall, Kabutops does more damage if both moves are neutral.

Gyarados CAN get through Celebi with Ice Fang. But it needs three turns to do so (DD, Ice Fang, Ice Fang), unless you use HP Bug, which you still need to predict, so it's unlikely you will take it out in two turns..Whereas Quagsire comes in, takes whatever, and gets OHKOd by HP Grass. Not 2HKOd, OHKOd.

If I could only 2HKO things like Quagsire I would agree with you; but it easily lessens prediction, and hits suprisingly hard.

 

[Bourbon]

Ok, well, I guess we'll never agree on this...

Good luck anyways!

 

[twash]

Cheers for being understanding (:

 

[Jimbo]

whilst normally a Life Orb Waterfall

Maybe it's just me, but I think whilst normally sounds a bit awkward.

Looks like a cool set, I could actually see it working really well. Would you consider switching the sentence about Skarmory with the sentence about Aggron and Steelix? The analysis should probably focus more on the UU walls than on the OU ones right?

Imo it'd also be better to focus on the walls Kabutops can definitely OHKO (Aggron/Steelix) rather than ones like Skamory where there's a chance Surf would fail to do so. It's always better to highlight the best parts right :)

 

[twash]

"a normal Life Orb Waterfall would top at 54%" sound better? I just want it to be compared to the normal Kabutops.

Skarmory is there because it is the damage calc as Weezing, I don't really want to repeat the same sentence because I want Skarmory there to show it can take some OU walls..If you get me? If you found a way to reword it, awesome.

Whilst I would focus on Aggron / Steelix generally, I still want to focus on Skarmory / Weezing to emphasise how important Stealth Rock is to this set. Also, Steelix / Aggron would take loads from many STAB + Rain Water attacks.

If that makes sense? Please say if it doesn't! :)

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Base 65 SpA is just plain terrible.

...

See, I essentially did the same thing. They are cool, and they work, but are they really worth a slot on the analysis?! Gyarados can get past Celebi by using Ice Fang. Swellow can't really get past Steelix any other way, but it's Speed and Attack stats are compromised.

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Don't look at the SpAtk and say "that's too low to be usable!". Rotom only has 50/77/77 defenses and its the premier Fighting-type counter in UU! Who cares what the stats look like, as long as they get the needed OHKOs? This set has been amazingly effective for me, beating stupid shit like Poliwrath, Weezing and especially Quagsire which frequently wall Kabutops.

As for your "one move to hit only its counters" argument: why was HP Ice so common on Lucario before it got Ice Punch? Why do Palkia sets use Aqua Tail and Surf together? Dismissing a set for that reason is very silly, especially when you consider how much it helps Kabutops in the long run. UU is primarily a defensive game, since most of the offensive threats there have weak attacking stats or very exploitable methods of countering. When you can just get a free kill like this set guarantees, you can easily turn the tides in a match.

Besides, Surf does more than just hit a few meaningless counters for OHKOs, its the best move on the set and was the move I used the most, its better than Waterfall in most cases.

Its really just a debate between neutrality and playing the odds. Do you want to hit everything reasonably hard, or do you want to hit the things that are most likely to come in harder?

The Swords Dance set is probably better in the long run because its a very good stand-alone sweeper with or without Rain support, but this mixed set could be perfectly usable for drawing things like...say..Weezing out for a swift ohko so that your Swords Dance Venusaur can sweep (which happened to me today).

Also, I would suggest giving Aerial Ace at least a mention in the comments to prevent any Grass type from completely shutting this set down.

 

[Bourbon]

-_-

Listen, J7r, I was trying to say that regular Kabutops can do everything this one can except for beat Quagsire. It was more of a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing than "this set sucks"

 

[Caelum]

I've already given my thumbs up so I don't have much to comment on content wise. My only content suggestions is that Stone Edge should be emphasized as the primary option in the final slot. In my experience, Kabutops is a crappy Rain Dance user to begin with (I always have someone else set it up). But it's fine.

Also, I would suggest giving Aerial Ace at least a mention in the comments to prevent any Grass type from completely shutting this set down.

Aerial Ace would only be more useful then X-Scissor against Venusaur & Vileplume really. I'd be a bit more specific in the set comments then just to say "Grass types" myself. Plus Stone Edge does more to Venusaur & Vileplume anyway, so why bother with AA?

 

[twash]

I won't change the final slot primarily because this set NEEDS rain, otherwise it is just about, hopeless. Hence why it is there, because it MUST be raining, I won't drone on because I know you know what I mean. (lol)

Is there much point adding Aerial Ace? Stone Edge does more to both Vileplume & Venusaur.