I think that the without a huge amount of quickbans (and even then), the meta will still end up in stall. There are just sooo many new threats that require specific counters that it's hard to get close to encompassing all of them in 2-3 slots for a balance team. Zamazenta-C specifically, if unbanned, will probably not push this because it can't 2HKO the best physical walls on the tier like Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Toxapex, and Amoongus, all of which fit nicely on Balance.As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta. Let's think for a second: Zama is a hard hitting physical attacker with no recovery and no boosting outside of Howl/Work Up; despite its cons, it will likely be spammed on ladder due to high stats and having great bulk and speed for an offensive threat, plus a decently diverse attacking movepool. What do you think is going to be the natural best answer to a mon like that? Simple-
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While I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on how the meta would adapt to a threat such as Zama, to me the addition of either Zama form would inherently make STALL an even more central force than it currently is (especially after all the overwhelming offensive threats get banned). Both Zama STABs do nothing to Toxapex, and its two best options for Pex- Wild Charge and Psychic Fangs- can both be walled by common partners like Hippowdon and Tangrowth or Mandibuzz and Corviknight, respectively. That's in addition to returning STALL partners like Lando-T, whose Intimidate especially neuters Crowned form due to its lack of boosting item. Simply put, I can't help but be afraid of STALL would quite possibly become even more dominant in order to keep Zama in bay, and this kind of warping is something I find both overly-centralizing and plain disgusting. Sure, this hypothetical STALL dominance probably wouldn't take hold until the meta settles, which will probably take two months or so (remember how long it took for Skarmory to take off in OU?), but assuming Zama did make it past that initial stretch, fat mons that can recover off its damage and possibly cripple it with status (namely burn) rising up to counter it is practically a given. Considering how STALL currently dominates OU to counter Urshifu, just imagine how ladder would have to adapt to an Urshifu with superior defenses, really good speed and no 4x weakness. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it? So, while Zamazenta has some obvious shortcomings (4MSS, little boosting, no recovery, Crowned's item lock), I still think that it has the potential to warp OU in a way where it's almost unplayable*, and so I think OU would be better off without it.
*Note: claims of unplayability are mainly meant for dramatic effect. I am not being literal with this term, and am largely just signaling how unappealing I would find that meta.
hopefully somewhere within the first couple days.Whats the fastest we could potentially expect quick bans in a situation like this? Asking because it looks like OU is going to be a complete mess at first with the tier decisions
I'm pretty new to tiering so please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think this isn't how Smogon does tiering, if a mon is broken it will be banned, regardless of how healthy it is for the metagame. So the decision of banning/allowing a mon will happen independent of if it makes the tier a stallfest or an HO dominated meta or a haven for balance.As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta.
Zamazenta-C would have checks from offense as well, such as Cinderace, Garchomp, Tapu Koko, Landorus-T, Hex/Wisp Dragapult, Rotom-Heat all of which can offensively pressurize Zama-C. Don't forget that Zama-C is also very vulnerable to status and it's not strong enough to KO even HO mons, let alone stall/walls.As tempting as it may be, I don't think adding either Zamazenta form to OU would be advisable. Sure, its great bulk and the +1 boost from Dauntless Shield makes revenge-killing it a pain, but actually my main reason for thinking this to be unadvisable is less due to Zama being overtly broken and more because of how its presence would inevitably affect the meta; it mainly becomes unhealthy when you take into account the greater meta. Let's think for a second: Zama is a hard hitting physical attacker with no recovery and no boosting outside of Howl/Work Up; despite its cons, it will likely be spammed on ladder due to high stats and having great bulk and speed for an offensive threat, plus a decently diverse attacking movepool. What do you think is going to be the natural best answer to a mon like that? Simple-
View attachment 283490S View attachment 283491TView attachment 283492 A View attachment 283493LView attachment 283494 LView attachment 283496
While I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on how the meta would adapt to a threat such as Zama, to me the addition of either Zama form would inherently make STALL an even more central force than it currently is (especially after all the overwhelming offensive threats get banned). Both Zama STABs do nothing to Toxapex, and its two best options for Pex- Wild Charge and Psychic Fangs- can both be walled by common partners like Hippowdon and Tangrowth or Mandibuzz and Corviknight, respectively. That's in addition to returning STALL partners like Lando-T, whose Intimidate especially neuters Crowned form due to its lack of boosting item. Simply put, I can't help but be afraid of STALL would quite possibly become even more dominant in order to keep Zama in bay, and this kind of warping is something I find both overly-centralizing and plain disgusting. Sure, this hypothetical STALL dominance probably wouldn't take hold until the meta settles, which will probably take two months or so (remember how long it took for Skarmory to take off in OU?), but assuming Zama did make it past that initial stretch, fat mons that can recover off its damage and possibly cripple it with status (namely burn) rising up to counter it is practically a given. Considering how STALL currently dominates OU to counter Urshifu, just imagine how ladder would have to adapt to an Urshifu with superior defenses, really good speed and no 4x weakness. Doesn't sound too appealing, does it? So, while Zamazenta has some obvious shortcomings (4MSS, little boosting, no recovery, Crowned's item lock), I still think that it has the potential to warp OU in a way where it's almost unplayable*, and so I think OU would be better off without it.
*Note: claims of unplayability are mainly meant for dramatic effect. I am not being literal with this term, and am largely just signaling how unappealing I would find that meta.
Naganadel would likely get banned, the tier can't handle it after a nasty plot boost. After Naga is banned, Pult will do it's usual jobSo what kind of role does dragapult have going into crowned tundra, it faces a lot of competition.
I don’t see how it continues to use specials sets when naga, the lati@s and the spectrier forms would all give it serious competition.
Even it’s physical set up sets have a lot of new competition
I’d imagine the best set for pult would probably be some uturn set that takes advantage of the two things it has over most of its peers, the natural speed and uturn.
Would it ? Even without naga (I’m not even sold on it getting banned) I don’t see why you’d use a non scarf special set with the latis and the ghost horses (assuming at least 1 have >=100 speed) running around.Naganadel would likely get banned, the tier can't handle it after a nasty plot boost. After Naga is banned, Pult will do it's usual job
1) The horses haven't even been confirmed but assuming so, it's likely they will have ndw/ndm BST so will be auto bannedWould it ? Even without naga (I’m not even sold on it getting banned) I don’t see why you’d use a non scarf special set with the latis and the ghost horses (assuming at least 1 have >=100 speed) running around.
1. It’s no way the horses and the rider forms both have cover legend bts stats, that’s an unheard of amount of high BTS Pokémon for a single gen it’s more reasonable to assume they have sub legend stat lines 550-600 ish1) The horses haven't even been confirmed but assuming so, it's likely they will have ndw/ndm BST so will be auto banned
2) Dragapult has a much more formidable STaB combo than the latis and has more power if you're focusing on speed due to hex and specs since latis forgoe their own LO or specs or even soul dew when running scarf
3) U turn is so damn good.
What criteria is being used to determine what should be quickbanned or not considering it's "so liberal"?but when we have access to liberal quickbans, I am less worried about this than I would be the potential of us keeping it banned
If the latis are scarfed (which they would have to be in order to function as speed control like Dragapult does), their coverage is all prediction-reliant, so if there's the risk of pressing draco meteor on a fairy type, or pressing a psychic move on a dark type, or pressing mystical fire on heatran, then those moves become much less valuable, as they can just give your opponent free turns and force you to switch. While Dragapult's ghost+dragon coverage still has immunities/resists, it has amazing neutral coverage between the two (with no OU pokemon resisting both), and it can press those buttons without fearing too hard, because it's able to click the other STAB, u-turn out or even fire off a status move if you're feeling ballsy. And if the latis are specs/LO/lefties/whatever, then your team still probably needs something to avoid getting swept by fast threats like Cinderace, Torn-T and opposing Pults, and Pult happens to provide that utility by virtue of its massive natural speed while also not being scarfed.2. The Latis have stronger dragon moves and superior coverage and more sp attack , as does Naga. While the horse will likely have a weaker stab but more sp attack with snowballing capabilities. I wouldn’t call pult straight up outclassed but unless you desperately need the speed pult provides the other choices have a strong case
Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.What criteria is being used to determine what should be quickbanned or not considering it's "so liberal"?
I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.When you're introducing this many new strong Pokemon to the tier the meta is going to change dramatically and comparing subjective definitions of what OU "should" look like in contrast to older generations can easily cause a good amount of bias.
I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.Also, what kind of time frames are we even looking at before we start addressing things in the meta?
Idk where the point of contention is here, we all agree pults will still have use as speed control going forward.If the latis are scarfed (which they would have to be in order to function as speed control like Dragapult does), their coverage is all prediction-reliant, so if there's the risk of pressing draco meteor on a fairy type, or pressing a psychic move on a dark type, or pressing mystical fire on heatran, then those moves become much less valuable, as they can just give your opponent free turns and force you to switch. While Dragapult's ghost+dragon coverage still has immunities/resists, it has amazing neutral coverage between the two (with no OU pokemon resisting both), and it can press those buttons without fearing too hard, because it's able to click the other STAB, u-turn out or even fire off a status move if you're feeling ballsy. And if the latis are specs/LO/lefties/whatever, then your team still probably needs something to avoid getting swept by fast threats like Cinderace, Torn-T and opposing Pults, and Pult happens to provide that utility by virtue of its massive natural speed while also not being scarfed.
It actually got Drill Run in USUM (after it got banned) so while Toxapex used to stone-wall it, it's not so clear-cut now.But then I remembered that literally all of its sets are walled by Toxapex, both physical and special, and suddenly I wasn't so sure.
If Calyrex or any other new Pokémon has 670+ BST are they going to be on the initial banlist?Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.
I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.
On a serious note, it’s not a perfect process and it can be based on perception, but the council plays the tier and the playerbase will be consulted, so we will handle it like we do quickbans in other generations.
I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.
Wow, I totally missed that! And yeah, not that Toxapex gets totally crushed by Drill Run from Phero but still stings so yeah, one more reason to ban it. lolIt actually got Drill Run in USUM (after it got banned) so while Toxapex used to stone-wall it, it's not so clear-cut now.
Deoxys does at least have the mitigating factor of "it's still Dexited" in favour of its ban ;)If we're unbanning Pheromosa, we might as well also unban Deoxys-Normal, who is at least weak to Sucker Punch instead of resistant to it, and who doesn't snowball if it gets a kill, and who doesn't have U-turn.
Sounds good. Nice to know these things some time before we actually start playing.Impressions from the early metagame, a potential playerbase survey later this month, what checks and counters pokemon have, and honestly any other normal quickban criteria I may not have listed.
You clearly should be Finch, unacceptable.I am terribly sorry for my potential bias, FCKNfuego.
On a serious note, it’s not a perfect process and it can be based on perception, but the council plays the tier and the playerbase will be consulted, so we will handle it like we do quickbans in other generations.
Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.I would imagine we could see quickbans sometime this weekend if anything is blatantly broken. If not then, look for something soon thereafter depending on the outlook of the tier.
We also didn’t have the same playerbase survey infrastructure in place previously. We do now and one is planned for later this month, which will help consult the playerbase.On topic, the playerbase hasn't been consulted before for past quick bans to the best of my knowledge and QBs don't really leave much room for discussion in either direction outside of more or less just the council. With the amount of possible mons that are thrown around that could be QB'd I don't see anything wrong discussing how these should work.
Depends on the pokemon, I don’t love generalizingImo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.
I mean that is why it's called a quick ban lol. Those are mainly meant for pokemon that are obviously broken and we need to get rid of them as fast as possible while still giving them time to function in the metagame. I think the worst offenders should go by 3 days in with maybe another quickban slate close to a week after crown tundra dlc drops.Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.
Most of the discussion imo is about Zamazenta-Crowned, who is bulkier and has steel-typing but can't hold an item, which means it gets no recovery and no method of breaking through walls apart from sub-howl (oh no what set have i created)Stupid Idea.
- Adamant choice band close combat 2hkos corv guaranteed after rocks.
- Can pull the same trick with pex if you use psychic fangs. Doesn't even need rocks to guarantee if you use wild charge.
- This thing isnt a little fast, its 138 base speed fast. Adamant zamazenta outspeeds jolly cinderace. Can ouspeed koko if jolly as well.
- All out attacking CB sets dont have as dire a movepool as you may think. Stab CC + coverage for fairies, poisons, and psychics.
- Insane bulk, 325/266/266 uninvited. Gets a free +1 defense too. lives CB urshifu CC.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 261-307 (80.3 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
East clef moonblast too 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thing is broken, maybe test but it'll get banned anyways