Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[MMII]

Scarf Magnezone is awfully slow though which means it'll have to invest in speed to outrun the 108s which also means that it won't the bulk to really survive repetitive Outrages/Dclaw from Kyu-B plus a potential Scarf Salamence partner. I ran some calcs and it turns out that LO Raikou outspeeds and does enough damage so that Magnezone can no longer survive an Outrage from Kyurem-B. So that sadly eliminates it.

Victini would need maximum speed to match a Choice Scarf Salamence. Even then, we risk losing to a stupid speed tie and, iirc, Victini can't OHKO Kyu-B after SR which means that it'll still be a problem as well.

K, changed the spread.

 

[G-Von]

We need something to wall Cube and something that will not leave us open TOO much so that Team 1 seals the deal. Hopefully this could be the choice.

Ferrothorn@Leftovers
EV's: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Attack
Trait: Iron Barbs
Sassy Nature
-Gyro Ball
-Power Whip
-Bulldoze
-Leech Seed

Yep, this is the guy I feel like can help us out. I wasn't sure if I should have gone with a CB set or a SpD variant, btu I went with the ladder. Ferro means Raikou will not be selected and walls the shit out of Cube. Slowbro may not be able to even 2HKO it after SR if it gets seeded. I went with this stat spread since Team 1 is mostly special-based. The moves are so that everything on Team 1 gets hit at least neutrally from Ferro. Leech Seed is to promote longevity for Ferro or any other team member. However, Spikes are pretty appealing.

I'm no going to post calcs yet but I will post them when my summer class is done around 4:30 today. Feedback on the item and spikes/leech seed factors please?

 

[alexwolf]

We need something to wall Cube and something that will not leave us open TOO much so that Team 1 seals the deal. Hopefully this could be the choice.

Ferrothorn@Leftovers
EV's: 252 HP/252 SpD/4 Attack
Trait: Iron Barbs
Sassy Nature
-Gyro Ball
-Power Whip
-Bulldoze
-Leech Seed

Yep, this is the guy I feel like can help us out. I wasn't sure if I should have gone with a CB set or a SpD variant, btu I went with the ladder. Ferro means Raikou will not be selected and walls the shit out of Cube. Slowbro may not be able to even 2HKO it after SR if it gets seeded. I went with this stat spread since Team 1 is mostly special-based. The moves are so that everything on Team 1 gets hit at least neutrally from Ferro. Leech Seed is to promote longevity for Ferro or any other team member. However, Spikes are pretty appealing.

I'm no going to post calcs yet but I will post them when my summer class is done around 4:30 today. Feedback on the item and spikes/leech seed factors please?

While Ferro has many things going for it, it has many things against it too. Magnezone effortlessly traps and kills it, Volcarona sets up on it and murders the rest of the team, and Jolly Breloom with Stone Edge remains a huge problem for our team. We could somewhat mitigate the Volcarona weakness with T-Wave over Bulldoze, and Breloom could be played around i guess (it needs Mach Punch, Stone Edge, and Bullet Seed, which leaves it with 1 free slot, which will most probably be Spore, meaning that it can't OHKO Ferro while taking a ton of damage back from Gyro Ball or getting crippled by T-Wave), but the Zone weakness is huge. The only thing that can really be done about this is to give to Ferrothorn Shed Shell. It also needs max Defense to take on Kyu-B as good as possible. Here is what i would make the set look like:

Ferrothorn @ Shed Shell
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Trait: Iron Barbs
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
-Gyro Ball
-Power Whip
-Thunder Wave
-Leech Seed

 

[vyomov]

192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 411-489 (116.76 - 138.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn is nice, but makes us weak to MixMence again.

 

[MMII]

Virizion and Terrakion, both threats to our team, remain unchecked with Ferrothorn.

(MixMence isn't a problem, it struggles to setup anywhere and we can force it out the one or two times that it does. ScarfMence, however, is a threat due its ability to instantly outspeed and threaten KOs.)

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah MixMence is nothing that can't be handled so stop mentioning it. On the other hand, both Virizion and Terrakion are big problems and Ferro just compounds our weakness to those guys. So it seems that Ferro won't cut it.

 

[vyomov]

Not exactly:
64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 263-309 (68.48 - 80.46%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 278-330 (85.8 - 101.85%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 235-278 (77.55 - 91.74%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 642-759 (179.32 - 212.01%) -- guaranteed OHKO

192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Blastoise: 242-285 (67.03 - 78.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That means MixMence 2HKOes the whole of team 1. I'd say it's a threat then, right? Ferrothorn does nothing to stop MixMence so no, doesn't work.

I do agree though, MixMence is not the most dangerous thing we might have to face: Virizion, Volcarona and Scarf Terrakion are all issues, as is Scarf Salamence and Infernape amongst others. The point is though that we DO have to take it into account when deciding because right now it is killing the whole team, and with Kyurem-B already doing that not taking MixMence into account would be a BIG mistake.
This is why I'm resubmitting(with the approval of all, will cancel if not approved) my suggestion as Substitute Heatran(thus scrapping Scarf Chandelure)
Substitute Heatran is one of the only mons that walls both MixMence and Kyurem-B.
Heatran@Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Def/252 SpA/4 SpD
Nature: Modest
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse
The idea of the set is to set up a substitute on Azelf(hopefully AFTER taking the flash fire boost off FB) and then proceed to fire off Earth Power or Fire Blast. This takes the game to Kyurem-B as Heatran takes a pittance from most things Cube is locked into, can set up Subsitute on the switch and can attack. Dragon Pulse immediately discourages team 1 from picking a dragon next pick.

Sub Heatran discourages Terrakion because with a sub it OHKOes with Earth Power. Virizion is no longer an option thanks to Fire Blast. Volcarona is not viable as Heatran can grab a Flash Fire boost, set Sub on the switch and can fire off Flash Fire STAB Fire Blast that hits hard.

What can team 1 do to take advantage of this pick? They can pick a mon with Double Kick in order to beat out the substitute. Alternatively they can pack a mon with Roar. The issue with Heatran is that once Cube is gone, Heatran has no way of setting up a sub, leaving it vulnerable to faster mons that OHKO like Landorus.

 

[MMII]

Substitute doesn't stop Terrakion or Virizion from sweeping our team, it just stops them from coming in and OHKOing Heatran.

 

[alexwolf]

vyomov Heatran doesn't counter MixMence which easily OHKOeds with EQ (not that it matters, just disproving what you said), and does nothing to solve our Terrakion, Breloom, Sceptile, and Virizion weaknesses, which all outspeed and OHKO.

For one last time, focus on the real threats and let aside MixMence. Two of our 5 five Pokemon outspeed and OHKO, while all the rest can take one hit if needed. If we wanted to cover all the threats in the level of danger you are suggesting we would never be able to find a final pick for team 2.

 

[MMII]

Hum, another option that could work is a CB Scizor with Quick Attack and a slight EV tweak. It may not have the raw bulk of Metagross but the bug STAB means that Team 1 will actually have to invest their final slot into countering it (unlike Meta which is already beat) and the stronger Bullet Punch allows it OHKO Kyu-B with just SR up.

 

[ganj4lF]

Starting the vote for the last pokemon of Team 2.

• Scarf Latios
• Scarf Tyranitar
• SpD Heatran
• Jirachi
• Metagross
• Scarf Jirachi
• CB Metagross
• Infernape
• Ferrothorn
• Offensive Heatran
• Scizor

The list includes my own Scarf Jirachi that failed to win the last vote. Take it as my submission; I still feel it has a niche over many of the submissions since it outspeeds Cube and deals with it while not being even 2HKO'd most of the times, is not particularly weak to threats that were brought up while discussing (doesn't care about Grass types, doesn't care about Weavile, and can Trick Raikou, which is better than nothing I guess). Yeah, it's not a monster in terms of raw power, it's up to you to evaluate if its utility outweights this deficiency or not. Just a comment, I heavily dislike Offensive Heatran: that EV spread gives up ALL the special bulk for a very slight increase in physical bulk. Not that it matters since that kind of Heatran doesn't do much for Team 2 anyway, but still worth noting I guess. Anyway, that's only my personal opinion, voters will think about it and decide themselves.

As usual, to vote send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; both the title and the body of the message should contain "CtP: your preference" where your preference is selected from the previous list.

Since this vote is very important and very controversial too, you'll have 48 hours at least to vote. Go!

EDIT: oh well I got ninjaed again. You got extra 24 hours so I'm not delaying this any more, sorry about that.
EDIT2: doing an exception, added Scizor. I guess it doesn't hurt since it's backed off by good reasoning!

 

[MMII]

Oh, can I throw in a second submission with the CB Scizor set real quick? I have the spread and everything. (along with Metagross so that the decision can be made during the vote)

Here it is just in case:

Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 120 Atk / 248 HP / 140 SDef
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Superpower

Attack evs is just enough to OHKO Kyu-B after SR.

Edit: Okay, I'm starting to lean more towards Scizor the more I think about it. The fact that Metagross was already countered by Slowbro means that Team 1 would have a free pick to try and push an advantage for them in battle. (probably wouldn't be a 6-0 or anything close but still puts Team 2 at disadvantage) Scizor, though, doesn't have that problem as that U-Turn has really good coverage on Team 1 and it also plays into the Volt-Turn thing they have going on so far. The stronger Bullet Punch means that we'll have to rely on the rest of the team even less to keep Kyu-B in line while Quick Attack helps add an extra safety net to beating things like Raikou. It may have lesser bulk but this spread can still tank a +1 LO Tbolt fairly well (at least, not too close to a OHKO) and respond with a U-Turn or a Superpower. Again, what it loses in bulk it makes up with priority serving as a peusdo-revenge killer. What do you guys think?

 

[alexwolf]

Well it's not a bad idea, the only real problem is that Scizor won't be able to hold back both Raikou and Kyu-B. Scizor can only save us from Raikou once, as one Tbolt means Scizor can't switch in again, so we will have to be extremely careful with Raikou, which is very hard to do with such a Raikou-weak team. Furthermoe, if we want to check Raikou even once, this means that we still have no Kyu-B switch in at all, which can lead and fuck shit up. We can't even lead with Scizor to prevent this as BP doesn't OHKO Kyu-B: 82.86 - 98.2%.

But at this stage there aren't really many other choices, so Scizor seems as th best one.

EDIT: Oh and we really need Bug Bite to OHKO Raikou or leave it to OHKO range from Quick Attack. Superpower does low enough damage to let Raikou possibly take the hit and even a Quick Attack from Terrakion later, especially if it has Lefties. Also Superpower won't do shit to Sub versions of Raikou. Putting it in the place of Quick Attack makes the most sense

 

[MMII]

Calcs for reference

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 285-335 (83.09 - 97.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 145-172 (42.27 - 50.14%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 140 SpD Scizor: 219-258 (63.84 - 75.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 147-173 (42.85 - 50.43%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 88-104 (25.65 - 30.32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO



+1 252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Metagross: 251-296 (69.14 - 81.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Metagross: 129-153 (35.53 - 42.14%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Metagross: 193-228 (53.16 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 117-138 (32.23 - 38.01%) -- 97.07% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 70-83 (19.28 - 22.86%) -- possible 5HKO

So, in the case of LO Raikou, Metagross faces the same difficulty of Scizor in that it can not switch into both, nor lead. However, Scizor has the advantage of being able to KO Kyu-B after a single layer of SR and, even if it does sustain damage, still have something it can do against LO Raikou. Even with Sub Raikou, the probability that it'll be hiding behind a Substitute is fairly high which means that it'll be able to Thunderbolt twice which once again erases the extra bulk Metagross has. (only in the situation where it attacks with a +1 Tbolt can Metagross lead against Kyu-B)

I see your point about having Bug Bite, I didn't think of that as I was only considering LO Raikou at the time. On the other hand, Leftovers Raikou hits a lot less than the LO variant which means the rest of the team can help check it. Assuming it is only hiding behind a Substitute (and not at +1 as well) Scizor can still deal a hefty 38-46% with Quick Attack so that it can pop the Substitute and proceed to 2HKO Raikou before falling to Thuderbolt spam. (SR will cancel Leftovers) Plus, having so much Volt-Turn will help pressure the team and discourage the Raikou pick in the first place as it leaves Team 1 defenseless against Scizor once it does come in. Seeing as the only thing coming on the Volt Switches would be Kyu-B or a Raikou, Team 1 will find it hard to fight back without stronger prediction. Plus, nothing on their team enjoys a U-turn besides Landorus who is forced out by the Volt-Switching Rotom/Zapdos.

(Plus, I'm sure it's too late to fit Bug Bite on there)

 

[G-Von]

Ok so obviously we are trying to make the best pick so that Team 1 doesn't have a clear go-to poke that will tear Team 2 up and lead to a 6-0. With Ferrothorn, Raikou if out of the question. I would also count Sceptile out since he does pitiful damage with Drain Punch, even at +2, and gets OHKO'd by Gyro Ball after Iron Barbs damage. Honestly, I cannot see Volc getting picked since Team 1 does not have a rapid spinner, and we all know if SR is on the field, Volc will not be around too long. The only real threat I see being an issue is Breloom since it can bypass it's mediocre (shitty) speed with Mach Punch and really does pack a punch (no pun intended). Luckily for Team 2, Zapdos can OHKO Loom w/o SR with Heat Wave (100.76 - 119.08%). Obviously that really isn't an ideal situation I would want to find my team in, but like everyone has been saying, we have to work with what we got. Oh, and the fact he shits on Cube is the main reason why I submitted his set.

I know Ferro is a defensive approach at things, but we already have 3 very offensive pokes, one fully defensive poke, and another that is good on both sides, and Ferrothorn would be in that group since Power Whip and Gyro Ball are high-base power moves that will leave a mark. Calc Time:

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 105-123 (29.82 - 34.94%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Sceptile Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.47 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Sceptile Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 214-252 (60.79 - 71.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 60-72 (17.04 - 20.45%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 203-242 (57.67 - 68.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Now Ferro:

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 306-362 (78.26 - 92.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dont forget IB damage.

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 217-256 (77.22 - 91.1%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 154-183 (47.97 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 186-219 (70.99 - 83.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

He handles them pretty damn well. BTW Breloom cannot run Adamant, otherwise it will get outsped by and killed by Zapdos.

 

[MMII]

As mentioned before, if we choose Ferrothorn Terrakion or Virizion 6-0s Team 2.

 

[G-Von]

As mentioned before, if we choose Ferrothorn Terrakion or Virizion 6-0s Team 2.

I wouldn't consider something like Virizion to be strong enough to accomplish that. Terrakion obviously has the strength to do that, but it also has to deal with Chomp and speed tying with Terrakion, which is pretty damn risky. I can't even consider that valid point either since regardless of who Team 2 picks, there will be a poke that can handle it. I just believe Ferro gives the least amount of holes for Team 1 to exploit.

 

[vyomov]

I agree with G-Von, Ferro minimizes the holes in our team and is a good choice(I like Jirachi as well).

 

[MMII]

Virizion is actually the more threatening of the two since, like Raikou, it gets CM and Giga Drain has strong coverage with HP Ice. Also, relying on a speed tie to not get 6-0'd is the riskier move, and that's not even when considering Salac/Sub sets.

Jirachi is wrecked by Ferrothorn who also ruins Team 2.

It is a valid point since it means that Team 2 hasn't a chance when with Scizor/Metagross, they clearly still do. (with Scizor being the stronger option IMO) Please find something that 6-0s Team 2 with a Scizor because I want to avoid that at all costs. (although it is a bit late seeing as we can't change anything else and are locked into voting now)

 

[alexwolf]

I wouldn't consider something like Virizion to be strong enough to accomplish that. Terrakion obviously has the strength to do that, but it also has to deal with Chomp and speed tying with Terrakion, which is pretty damn risky. I can't even consider that valid point either since regardless of who Team 2 picks, there will be a poke that can handle it. I just believe Ferro gives the least amount of holes for Team 1 to exploit.

Do you not see how many switch-in chances Terrakion gets against our team? The Speed-tie is irrelevant as Terrakion on team 1 would never have to take the risk of going into such a situation. A single SubSD set with an Adamant nature and Salac Berry could easily sweep team 2, and it can find setup opportunities against Zapdos, Terrakion locked into Stone Edge, and even Ferrothorn sometimes (assuming Ferro switches out). CB threatens with a kill every time it comes in and doesn't need to risk a speed tie against our own Terrakion, as unlike team 2, team 1 counters any Terrakion variant easily.

Whether Virizion is strong or not doesn't really matter. It's CM set destroyes everything at +1, and the only chance we have against it is the speed-tie with Terrakion, where Virizion can easily switch out and come back later to get more kills.

Lastly, Breloom dgaf about Zapdos as it can outspeed with a Jolly nature and do 84.63 - 100.26% damage with Stone Edge, so it surely is a problem.

 

[MMII]

Come on guys, it's already been 24 hours and all I have so far is a grand total of 5 votes. (one of which is my own...) I can do a recap for those of you who can't decide but it would be nice to be getting more votes in.

 

[Homeslice]

Because I like shameless self-promotion, I just want to point out that ScarfApe easily stops both Virizion and Terrakion through outright brute force, and can 2HKO Raikou, unless for some reason it runs 252 HP / 252 Def. It also easily handles Kyurem-B, which is needed right now. Lastly, it stops Ferrothorn, which was also mentioned. And it has HP Ice, although there was limited concern about ScarfApe.

 

[MMII]

ScarfApe is okay, the big problem with him is that he can't even switch into Kyu-B at all (Scizor might not want to if Raikou is picked but that is if Raikou is picked.) so he'll be taking a kill about everytime he comes in (more or less) and he isn't putting enough pressure on Team 1 to really want to invest in something else to check it since they already have Slowbro. (Scizor is an actual threat to Team 1 so opting for a Raikou may not even be the best option for them) Outside of that, it doesn't face the problem of leaving the team open to a 6-0.

 

[G-Von]

Virizion is actually the more threatening of the two since, like Raikou, it gets CM and Giga Drain has strong coverage with HP Ice. Also, relying on a speed tie to not get 6-0'd is the riskier move, and that's not even when considering Salac/Sub sets.

It is a valid point since it means that Team 2 hasn't a chance when with Scizor/Metagross, they clearly still do. (with Scizor being the stronger option IMO) Please find something that 6-0s Team 2 with a Scizor because I want to avoid that at all costs. (although it is a bit late seeing as we can't change anything else and are locked into voting now)

Terrakion would pretty much only be able to come in if something on Team 1 died since 5 of the 6 pokemon on Team 2 maul it. Plus, the U-turners on Team 1 are quick, so when they U-turn Terrakion is still going to have to take a hit, therefore your theory that Terrakion 6-0's is not likely. On the subject of Virizion, him and Zapdos basically stalemates each other, except Zapdos has reliable recovery and the multiple attempts at Heat Wave could leave a burn to negate lefties and then some.

Plus, a trapper can use HP Fire and OHKO Scizor while Ferrothorn gets 2HKO'd. This gives Scizor less switch in opportunities and Ferrothorn can deal with a trapper switching into it. Granted, hypothetically speaking, Team 1 can have a Magnezone/ton and run a Chople Berry or Shuca Berry depending on the situation and screw both selections over.

It would really help if we had a damn scarf user to fall back on.

 

[MMII]

A trapper would be useless besides beating Scizor so if we got them to use that then it did exactly what we wanted. (if there are other potential problems please let me know though)

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 182-216 (47.51 - 56.39%) -- 30.08% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. +1 20 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 94-112 (28.65 - 34.14%) -- 2.08% chance to 3HKO

So yeah, Zappy isn't going to have a chance especially if Virizion came in on Slowbro or something first. Plus, letting something die on Team 1 to bring in Terrakion for a sweep is perfectly fine cause a 5-0 is still dominating.