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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]
- Thread starter ganj4lF
- Start date
Focus Sash is an interesting option but Team 1 can counter with a weather inducer to troll a sash user. Personally I doubt that would occur so overall I would consider it a decent option, though it maybe considered useless after its been knocked down to its sash depending on the sash user.
Okay, I'm thinking a Focus Sash Volcarona with 252spatk/252spd Modest using Fire Blast/Giga Drain/HP Ice/Quiver Dance could be a good pick for Team 1. Team 2 is already quite Volcarona weak where the bug can easily get multiple setup opportunities but the drawback to Team 1 picking him is that it doesn't check threats. With Focus Sash, though, it now can be used as a one time check to a trouble mon or to a free QD which is all it needs right now to 6-0 Team 1. Fire Blast OHKOs everythign at +1 except Slowbro who is OHKO'd by +1 Giga Drain after SR. (GD is also very important for Terrakion picks) HP Ice rounds out the coverage by hitting Dragon types like Salamence/Dnite. I think this'll force the opponent into lesser picks like Gyarados (who has multiple hoops to hop before it can really do much to Team 2). What do you guys think?
Edit: I'll stick it up for now, in case I'm not here to submit it before voting starts.
Volcarona (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Quiver Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Stupid Blissey
Volcarona (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Quiver Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Stupid Blissey
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
Why use sash volcarona for team 1 if chomp has Stealth Rock?
Its Melee's new suggestion for team 2. He crossed out his Heracross.
Even though a steel type that wont get 2HKO'd would be more desirable.
SR will be very difficult for Team 1 to get up as Blastoise counters Azelf, their SR setter. (chomp is on Team 2) Plus Volcarona has mutliple easy setup opportunities so it can always use those, worse case scenario.
Ideally, a bulky steel type would be better but I feel we have to choose between a hard counter to Kyu-B or a way to handle the multiple possible last picks. I've looked into the steels already (although I could have missed something) and all of them leave the team a lot weaker to X threat than it already is to Kyu-B. Kyu-B is threatening in that it 2HKOs everything but it doesn't OHKO which means that it is easy to force out (especially if you factor in good prediction) where SR will take it down.
Ideally, a bulky steel type would be better but I feel we have to choose between a hard counter to Kyu-B or a way to handle the multiple possible last picks. I've looked into the steels already (although I could have missed something) and all of them leave the team a lot weaker to X threat than it already is to Kyu-B. Kyu-B is threatening in that it 2HKOs everything but it doesn't OHKO which means that it is easy to force out (especially if you factor in good prediction) where SR will take it down.
How about Durant? Whilst a bit risky due to Hustle and its paper-thin SpD, it threatens any current member of team 1 and actually (with some investment) has the bulk to take a hit from Kyurem-B. Additionally, it outspeeds the 108 group which we are concerned about and hits hard enough to prevent most slower set-up sweepers from doing their thing. It can't really switch into anything though, but that is what we have those Volt Switches for. It's just a suggestion, because I'm not exactly good at making EV spreads and I don't have the time to type in an entire submission, so if anyone wants to, feel free to submit it. (I realise Durant was submitted in an earlier round, so credit to the one who posted it, I guess.)
While Melee's idea surely has merit, don't forget that if we go for Volcarona team 1 can always pick a second SR setter that doesn't give a fuck about Volcarona and Blastoise. For example, Blissey with S-Toss, SR, Toxic, and Softboiled, beats 4/6 of the team (assuming we pick Volcarona) and also beats Blastoise 1-on-1, meaning that SR will always go up. Furthermore the only two Pokemon that can threaten her are covered pretty damn good by team 1, leaving us struggling against Blissey.
I still think that even though Jirachi's offensive pressence is not the best it is the only option that doesn't leave any hole open so far.
EDIT: Also, idk when te voting period starts but i think it would be a good idea to extend the time limit a bit as this pick is quite difficult and we haven't really made a decision as to what we will go with.
I still think that even though Jirachi's offensive pressence is not the best it is the only option that doesn't leave any hole open so far.
EDIT: Also, idk when te voting period starts but i think it would be a good idea to extend the time limit a bit as this pick is quite difficult and we haven't really made a decision as to what we will go with.
Completely agree.
Another option(which might even be worse) is for Team 1 to simply select a sweeper, attach HP Rock(making Volcarona kind of useless) and proceed to sweep(an example could be Raikou, who can CM while Blastoise spins and CM again on the switch for before sweeping(blastoise will never stay in because it is otherwise OHKOed).
HP Rock on anything with good special attack OHKOes. Prime example? Salamence, who can run MixMence with HP Rock and devastate our team.
192 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 322-385 (103.53 - 123.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even worse, with no defensive investment, Salamence OHKOes with Outrage:64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 325-383 (104.5 - 123.15%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Volcarona does nothing to mitigate our weaknesses to MixMence and CM Raikou amongst others.
Lol, why are you so adamant on keeping SR off the field for Team 2 when Team 1 probably won't even take the time to set it up since the only thing that is bothered by it is Zapdos, who not only has reliable recovery to negate the weakness but it also can't do squat against Kyurem-Black? 3 of the 5 pokemon on Team 2 cannot harm Kyu-B in any serious way, while Chomp gets outsped and OHKO'd and Terrakion risks getting OHKO'd.
This leads to my next question: what is stopping Team 1 from leading with Kyurem-B? The answer is currently nothing, which means its going to be an "ok, so which pokemon means the least to Team 2 right now?" type of situation. Don't get me wrong, trying to choose a final team member so that Team 1 doesn't have an option to completely buttfuck Team 2 is important, but Cube is currently that pokemon. If it doesn't get addressed than Team 1 literally has a free pick and could probably win the match with the 5 pokemon they have now. Hell, they can do exactly what alexwolf said and choose a second SR user that doesn't care about the 9th pokemon in the national pokedex.
I hope I sound like a broken record so that the person who earns the right to face Team 2 in this battle will see how terrible it is to face the most powerful Outrage in the game without an answer is.
Edit at vyomov: why would salamence run HP rock when it has Stone Edge and Rock Slide?
Whoops, forgot that!
G-Von, I completely agree with you on this. I replugged the calcs with Rock Slide(safer thanks to accuracy and 30% chance to flinch). Hell, Salamence doesn't even need to run a mixed set: it can just run Dragon Dance, Dance on Volcarona and sweep :
64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 546-645 (175.56 - 207.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Congrats, Salamence just got a Moxie boost in addition to that Dragon Dance boost. What? We'll wall it with a steel type? Sorry bro, no steel types on team 2. What? Blastoise can wall it? Right. All team 1 has to do is click Outrage and OHKO Blastoise(at +2, even at +1 they can do that. All Blastoise can do is Roar, and after that any mon on team 2 can revenge kill Blastoise after the damage it's taking from Mence, meaning mence can come back later and sweep.
We NEED a steel type. Otherwise, Team 1 can just select MixMence or ANY Salamence set, sweep once with Mence and then sweep again with Cube, leaving Team 2 devastated. At least with a steel type we've covered Fire and Ground.
The list includes my own Scarf Jirachi that failed to win the last vote. Take it as my submission; I still feel it has a niche over many of the submissions since it outspeeds Cube and deals with it while not being even 2HKO'd most of the tmes, is not particularly weak to threats that were brought up while discussing (doesn't care about Grass types, doesn't care about Weavile, and can Trick Raikou, which is better than nothing I guess). Yeah, it's not a monster in terms of raw power, it's up to you to evaluate if its utility outweights this deficiency or not.
As usual, to vote send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; both the title and the body of the message should contain "CtP: your preference" where your preference is selected from the previous list.
Since this vote is very important and very controversial too, you'll have 48 hours at least to vote. Go!
EDIT: hmm...it seems you guys need a bit more time; I'll delay the start of the voting phase by a while so you can finalize your submissions and reconsider them if needed.
Correct me if I'm blind but volcarona has a focus sash and hidden power ice so mence can't even check it without prior damage. Flame body also helps a lot against Kyurem as it risks being burnt by it and ice beam clearly does loads. I actually really like the volc set.
G-VPN when you ask what is stopping team 1 leading with Kyurem? Well what's stopping us from leading with volcarona? Team 1 is also forced into picking a counter which means it has to take 2 +1 attacks which is hard. Yeah they could resort to checking it but volcarona is my favourite suggestion due to its only real weakness not holding it back.
G-VPN when you ask what is stopping team 1 leading with Kyurem? Well what's stopping us from leading with volcarona? Team 1 is also forced into picking a counter which means it has to take 2 +1 attacks which is hard. Yeah they could resort to checking it but volcarona is my favourite suggestion due to its only real weakness not holding it back.
As i already said, SR Blissey walls 4/6 of our team including Volcarona, and the only two Pokemon it doesn't are easily handled by the rest of the team. So Volcarona is out of the question.
Scarf Salamence seems as it could work. I know that it does shit about Kyu-B, but at this point it seems impossible to cover everything and find something that checks Kyu-B too. Scarf Salamence can check every Volcarona with Stone Edge and at worst Speed tie with it, and not even Jirachi / Slowbro are safe picks, provided we use some SpA EVs and Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. It also checks Breloom, Raikou (but Sub Raikou is a bitch and we can't really do something about it other than play super conservative with Zapdos, which is hard given the fact that we need it to protect against Landorus), Gengar, and in general covers many dangerous mons. We also have good spin support to help it stay alive. However, Unburden SD Sceptile with Rock Slide, SubCM Raikou, and Chansey, all remain as huge threats, which sucks. We can at least somehow deal with Sceptile by not giving it a free turn to setup, with Chansey with a lot of Volt Switching and SR up, but SubCM Raikou is a huge pain in the ass.
In a similar vein, a Focus Sash Breloom is tempting as it Spore allows it to check whatever 6th member Team 1 adds while Mach Punch can be used to keep KyuB at bay. Sadly, it only does 50% to Kyu-B and Breloom would have to be careful conserved in order for it to hold a Choice Scarf Salamence back.
Admittedly, Metagross may have potential here as the typing lets it stop Kyu-B while the bulk allows it to check all the problem Pokemon we have already listed. Volcarona and Sceptile/Breloom will still be problems but hopefully SR and the rest of the team could handle the former while a Bullet Punch (maybe even CB) will keep the latter in check.
Admittedly, Metagross may have potential here as the typing lets it stop Kyu-B while the bulk allows it to check all the problem Pokemon we have already listed. Volcarona and Sceptile/Breloom will still be problems but hopefully SR and the rest of the team could handle the former while a Bullet Punch (maybe even CB) will keep the latter in check.
Okay, since discussion is still quite alive I decided I'll close set submissions tomorrow at around ~8PM GMT+2. Try to have your sets ready and legal from that time. Also, as I said in the previous spoiler, I'm resubmitting Scarf Jirachi since it somehow has a niche that is currently not held by any other suggestion (beats Kyurem by outspeeding and not even being 2HKO'd, can somewhat deal with Raikou thanks to Trick unless it goes for Sub or something, and does not make us weak to Weavile, Sceptile or random stuff I guess. Yeah, it's not that powerful, but it just seems the lesser evil right now). Not sure if it should be max speed or not at this point, especially if the enemy team goes for ScarfMence. I'll finalize the exact set just before closing submissions, so if you have any suggestions on how to improve the version I posted for pokemon #5 team 2 feel free to drop them.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 80 Atk / 248 HP / 180 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake
- Hammer Arm
Alexwolf and I are still discussing it on IRC. Trick is an option over Earthquake and maybe even a Scarf Metagross could work.
I don't want to take away from discussion the thread so I'll copy paste the IRC logs here.
<Melee_Mewtwo> hi
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I think I'll submit metagross
<Melee_Mewtwo> it has the typing and bulk
<alexwolf> sounds as an ok option
<Melee_Mewtwo> and Bullet PUnch which means it can still d something
<Melee_Mewtwo> even when weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> or am I forgetting something?
<alexwolf> what moves are you thinking?
<Melee_Mewtwo> MM, Bullet, Tpunch, EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> Tpunch 2HKOs slowbro
<Melee_Mewtwo> EQ covers steels and raikou
<Melee_Mewtwo> MM for STAB
<alexwolf> does it 2HKO Slowbro though?
<Melee_Mewtwo> bullet punch is good prio
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> cb or lefties?
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> CB
<alexwolf> hmm
<Melee_Mewtwo> it needs the punch
<alexwolf> i don't like cb
<Melee_Mewtwo> for relevant Bullet punches
<alexwolf> rly easy to abuse
<alexwolf> especially with slowbro
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> but slowbro also has to handle terrakion
<Melee_Mewtwo> and is easy to handle with ourselves
<alexwolf> i would rly prefer a lefties variant with toxic over t-punch maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> that's a green light for rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> problem with lefties is that Bullet Punch is a lot weaker
<alexwolf> how much does slowbro lose from cb t=punch?
<Melee_Mewtwo> however
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could run
<Melee_Mewtwo> toxic over tpunch
<Melee_Mewtwo> just needs that one good prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> or trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> for once the big threats are gone
<alexwolf> i don't think that trying to 2hko bro is a good idea
<Melee_Mewtwo> it can throw away the CB at him
<alexwolf> too unreliable
<alexwolf> and add in regenerator
<Melee_Mewtwo> mm I see
<alexwolf> =trouble
<alexwolf> toxic is better
<alexwolf> problem is
<alexwolf> let's see
<Melee_Mewtwo> actually a double switch to rotom is probably best but yeah
<alexwolf> is there anything significant that can setup on us with a moveset of mm, eq, bp, toxic
<Melee_Mewtwo> I may put trick just for that
<alexwolf> yeah trick works too
<Melee_Mewtwo> we just double switch rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> same amount of prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> until CB isn't needed
<Melee_Mewtwo> then fling that away
<alexwolf> slowbro just stays in
<alexwolf> oh rotom-w
<alexwolf> roght
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> it has signal beam
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> and ebelt
<alexwolf> so bro can't stay in
<Melee_Mewtwo> and volt switch does like 80%
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep yep
<alexwolf> slack of still deals with volt switch
<alexwolf> signal beam is what scares it
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> rona stays a prob though right?
<alexwolf> volcarona i mean
<Melee_Mewtwo> um let me check
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah bullet punch only takes out 21%
<Melee_Mewtwo> but terrakion also has CB quick attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> and SR
<Melee_Mewtwo> should be enough
<Melee_Mewtwo> we'll have to play things safe but
<alexwolf> what about max HP Rona?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I calced max
<alexwolf> and what about gyarados?
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 216 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 78-93 (21.36 - 25.47%) -- 2.73% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> gdos
<Melee_Mewtwo> has two bulky waters
<alexwolf> blastoise can check it
<Melee_Mewtwo> and a zappy
<Melee_Mewtwo> to fight against yeah
<alexwolf> true
<alexwolf> and sr is down
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> same song with skarm
<Melee_Mewtwo> and trick nets us
<Melee_Mewtwo> a cripple on anything
<alexwolf> i just like lefties better to help handle the onsluaght of raikou + kyu-b
<alexwolf> which will be rly difficult otherwiose
<alexwolf> think about it
<Melee_Mewtwo> well bullet punch really needs that power
<alexwolf> raikou is out
<alexwolf> and our only option
<alexwolf> is to bring in meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> well yeah but that's the thing
<alexwolf> while raikou uses tbolt against us
<alexwolf> and then the opponent easily walls us
<Melee_Mewtwo> Raikou still comes close to a OHKO at plus 1
<alexwolf> bam
<Melee_Mewtwo> so lefties isn't fixing anything
<alexwolf> not switch in to kyu-b anymore
<alexwolf> yeah i know
<Melee_Mewtwo> Stronger bullet punch
<Melee_Mewtwo> at least lets us offensively chck kyu b
<Melee_Mewtwo> after Meta is weak
<alexwolf> idk
<alexwolf> another bad thing
<alexwolf> is that meta is ferro weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum yeah
<alexwolf> as i said again ferro would be good for opposing team
<alexwolf> walls rotom-w which they currenly lack a counter against
<alexwolf> and sets up spikes that toise has trouble spinning
<Melee_Mewtwo> can spike/sr on blastiose
<alexwolf> while also wearing down meta with iron barbs
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could run hammer arm over trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> or maybe trick is enough idk
<alexwolf> this is the main reason i don't like jirachi
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> trick is definitely not enough
<alexwolf> it can cripple one of bro and ferro
<alexwolf> not both
<Melee_Mewtwo> well rotom should handle bro but you are right
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 232-274 (72.27 - 85.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could drop EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> for hammer arm
<alexwolf> fuck we rly should have gone with roar on zapdos
<alexwolf> yeah i guess
<alexwolf> but the fucking prob remains
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah roar zappy
<alexwolf> after raikou butchers up our meta
<alexwolf> kyu-b sweeps
<Melee_Mewtwo> would fix everythign right now
<Melee_Mewtwo> well if meta is still alive
<Melee_Mewtwo> it can at least deal
<alexwolf> meta can't ohko raikou with hammer punch
<alexwolf> so we need to sac it
<alexwolf> in order to bring something in safe
<alexwolf> namely terra
<alexwolf> to OHKO with quick attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 222-264 (56.77 - 67.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> hmmm
<alexwolf> yeah but hammer punch doesnt ohko raikou
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah true
<alexwolf> this is the problem
<Melee_Mewtwo> 6% short
<Melee_Mewtwo> needs more superpower
<alexwolf> yeah damn
<alexwolf> it is fucking annoying how medicore pokes such as raikou can be such bitches to deal with in this project
<alexwolf> this fucking thing ruined everything ):
<Melee_Mewtwo> I think what is more annoying
<Melee_Mewtwo> is how one little moveset error
<Melee_Mewtwo> ie roar
<Melee_Mewtwo> can come back to bite soo hard
<alexwolf> yeah this too
<Melee_Mewtwo> you have to look forward for everything
<alexwolf> the truth is that we all were fucking stupid
<Melee_Mewtwo> and really choose each of your slots
<alexwolf> stacking up on special attacks
<alexwolf> and not thinking about cm sweeprs
<Melee_Mewtwo> well not so much
<Melee_Mewtwo> we only have zappy and rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> and now blastiose
<alexwolf> 3 guys
<alexwolf> that's a lot
<Melee_Mewtwo> most of our punch comes from chomp and terrkaion though
<alexwolf> without insurace
<Melee_Mewtwo> but yeah having a special wall
<Melee_Mewtwo> that is CM setup fodder
<Melee_Mewtwo> sucks
<alexwolf> at least we learned that phazing is god in this project
<alexwolf> not that we alrdy didnt know it
<alexwolf> what's your opinion about scarfmence?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah its interesting
<alexwolf> subcm raikou rapes though
<Melee_Mewtwo> well it doesn't hit as hard
<Melee_Mewtwo> ah but yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> it kicks ass too darn
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could
<Melee_Mewtwo> try hammer arm over trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> with EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> means meta is slowbro fodder
<Melee_Mewtwo> but slowbro is rotom fodder
<alexwolf> maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> it'll be cutting even
<alexwolf> but still needs rly good prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> which is good enough
<alexwolf> also don't forget that bp is very easy to see coming
<Melee_Mewtwo> well rotom beats everything one on one cept kyu
<alexwolf> and this can be abused
<Melee_Mewtwo> which meta handles
<Melee_Mewtwo> well yeah
<alexwolf> i guess
<Melee_Mewtwo> but by who?
<Melee_Mewtwo> no other setup sweepers
<alexwolf> anything that comes into bullet punch
<Melee_Mewtwo> just jirachi can come in
<Melee_Mewtwo> and X 6 mon
<alexwolf> jirachi yeah
<alexwolf> and the last mon
<alexwolf> while team 1 save kyi-b for one more kill
<alexwolf> before it dies to sr
<Melee_Mewtwo> mmm
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> what about sashzam?
<alexwolf> with t-wave?
<Melee_Mewtwo> Scarf mence
<Melee_Mewtwo> overwhelms
<alexwolf> true
<alexwolf> fuck
<Melee_Mewtwo> I was also thinking prankster
<Melee_Mewtwo> but no good users
<Melee_Mewtwo> unless maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> liepard
<Melee_Mewtwo> :D
<Melee_Mewtwo> swagger play
<Melee_Mewtwo> luck > skill
<alexwolf> this sounds legit
<alexwolf> fuck skill
<alexwolf> this is time for guts
<alexwolf> still the odds are against us as swagger only has 45% chance to give a free turn
<alexwolf> and kyu-b doesn't need to go for outrage as d-claw destroyes everything
<alexwolf> so sub spamming wont work
<Melee_Mewtwo> Well we can sub spam
<Melee_Mewtwo> and it has twave
<Melee_Mewtwo> iirc
<alexwolf> yeah but when will you find a free turn to use t-wave
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep it does
<Melee_Mewtwo> well you sack him I guess
<alexwolf> fight starts
<alexwolf> lieaprd vs kyub
<Melee_Mewtwo> ah yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> true
<alexwolf> you sack it and then scar mence
<alexwolf> sweeps
<Melee_Mewtwo> then you can't beat mence yeah
<alexwolf> same thing with zam
<alexwolf> also it will be very difficult for scarfmence to work on us
<alexwolf> as slowbri cockblocks it
<alexwolf> even dmetero won't do more that 60%
<alexwolf> which is not that hard to recover
<Melee_Mewtwo> ouch
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> lemme check
<alexwolf> mence needs 240 SpA EVs to 2HKO Bro with DM after SR
<alexwolf> and we can't take them out from speed
<alexwolf> as we need to speed tie volcarona
<alexwolf> so then outrage becomes piss poor weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> crap
<alexwolf> is there rly no option than getting crushed?
<alexwolf> this is a godamn huge challenge
<alexwolf> outsmarting ourselves
<Melee_Mewtwo> IDK
<Melee_Mewtwo> Meta is tough
<Melee_Mewtwo> but it can still pull it off it seemse
<Melee_Mewtwo> you'll have to play super smart
<alexwolf> what about cloyster?
<alexwolf> shel smash with hp grass/electric for slowbro
<alexwolf> sets up on kyu-b
<Melee_Mewtwo> does it tank enough?
<Melee_Mewtwo> and I calced that same set
<alexwolf> it can tank an outrage yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> signal beam is better
<alexwolf> takes 76% damage tops
<Melee_Mewtwo> and it needs too much investment
<Melee_Mewtwo> for OHKO
<alexwolf> cloyster has singal beam?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> but it needs too much
<Melee_Mewtwo> you'll have to take from attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> which'll make it lesser
<Melee_Mewtwo> and then
<Melee_Mewtwo> you need sash since
<Melee_Mewtwo> a lead raikou destroys you otherwise
<Melee_Mewtwo> I was also thinking smeargle
<Melee_Mewtwo> for smash pass
<Melee_Mewtwo> but nothing can really take that to sweep
<Melee_Mewtwo> garchomp comes close
<Melee_Mewtwo> but needs some prior damage on rachi
<Melee_Mewtwo> which smeargle is short term
<alexwolf> the azelf pick rly fucked chomp over
<Melee_Mewtwo> we won't be getting that
<alexwolf> actually lead raikou doesnt not outright sweep if it leads
<alexwolf> if we lead with terra it is forced out
<alexwolf> but next time it finds a switch in
<alexwolf> it is over
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum yeah
<alexwolf> evilote chansey comes close to walling kyu-b but it doesnt
<alexwolf> it can tank 2 d-claws but not outrage
<alexwolf> and loses horribly to many stuff
<alexwolf> breloom, viri, terra
<alexwolf> i think the best approach right now
<alexwolf> is to find a sweepr that can set-up once against raikou and kyu-b
<alexwolf> and fuck shit up
<Melee_Mewtwo> I tried
<Melee_Mewtwo> can't find anything
<Melee_Mewtwo> I looked at venomoth
<Melee_Mewtwo> but nothing can really benefit from the passes
<alexwolf> rona could have been nice as a lead but blissey/chansey stop it
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> we can't even chose ditto as team 1 has kyu-b covered...
<Melee_Mewtwo> ditto
<Melee_Mewtwo> lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> didn't think of him
<alexwolf> what about SD + Ice Shard + Night Slash + Low Kick Adamant Focus Sash Weavile
<alexwolf> beats Kyu-B and Raikou 1-on-1
<alexwolf> and OHKOes everything on team 1 at +2, except from jirachi i think
<alexwolf> yeah rachi survives
<alexwolf> nah i was thinking about salac berry on weavile to outspeed kyu-b
<alexwolf> but we can't use two items at the same time lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah shame
<alexwolf> huge brainfart on my part
<alexwolf> i can't find something, so go ahead and post cb meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> k
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh wait
<Melee_Mewtwo> I got it
<Melee_Mewtwo> hammer arm with trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> either A
<Melee_Mewtwo> raikou is too weak to stand a hammer arm
<Melee_Mewtwo> cause it had a bit of prio damage setting up
<Melee_Mewtwo> like zappy volt switch
<Melee_Mewtwo> or b
<Melee_Mewtwo> we just trick it a CB
<Melee_Mewtwo> and cripple him
<Melee_Mewtwo> y/n?
<alexwolf> sub says hi though
<Melee_Mewtwo> well sub is weaker in general
<alexwolf> so we can't rly trick
<alexwolf> raikou doesnt care
<Melee_Mewtwo> and hammer arm spam is as good as eq
<alexwolf> it still sets up all over us
<Melee_Mewtwo> its harder
<Melee_Mewtwo> since a conservative zappy
<alexwolf> the bad thing with sub
<Melee_Mewtwo> ruins a lot of that
<Melee_Mewtwo> and rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> beats it
<Melee_Mewtwo> and terrakion
<Melee_Mewtwo> can tank a hit
<alexwolf> is that raikou can just use a sub to scout
<alexwolf> and then switch out
<alexwolf> while it slowly wears down meta with tbols
<alexwolf> as it comes in
<alexwolf> but maybe it can work idk
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum true
<Melee_Mewtwo> darn is there a niche item
<Melee_Mewtwo> we are overlooking?
<alexwolf> idk
<alexwolf> i am currently looking at trash such as pilowsine atm
<alexwolf> the real big fucking annoyance is that
<alexwolf> we cant choose physical sweeprs
<alexwolf> as most of them are fucking walled by bro
<Melee_Mewtwo> shit
<Melee_Mewtwo> I got it
<alexwolf> for example sash mamo could have been an ok option
<Melee_Mewtwo> fucking
<Melee_Mewtwo> scarf meta
<alexwolf> deals with both scarf mence
<alexwolf> ok explain
<Melee_Mewtwo> bulk beats kyu b
<Melee_Mewtwo> speed beats everything else
<alexwolf> and ferro/slowbro?
<Melee_Mewtwo> well fuck them
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum
<Melee_Mewtwo> slowbro still loses to rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> so that's not tooo big a worry
<Melee_Mewtwo> ferro
<Melee_Mewtwo> let me check hammer arm
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.15 - 55.68%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> not godly but
<Melee_Mewtwo> since ferro is slow
<Melee_Mewtwo> we won't need scarf
<Melee_Mewtwo> so we can trick it off
<alexwolf> hmm
<alexwolf> so we basically need to predict if the opponent will send in ferro or slowbro
<alexwolf> every time we bring in meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> well no
<Melee_Mewtwo> slowbro comes in on meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> as easily as rotom comes in on bro
<Melee_Mewtwo> and rotom is more dangerous to team 1 then bro is to us
<alexwolf> i know but rotom-w won't like a burn or paralysis
<alexwolf> and if we don't make smart double switches rotom-w could end up losing health very fast
<alexwolf> same with metagross
<alexwolf> which is only able to switch into kyu-b once
<alexwolf> with a scarf set
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh shit
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum dunno
<Melee_Mewtwo> close no matter what
<Melee_Mewtwo> hold on give me a minute
<Melee_Mewtwo> playing UPL match
<alexwolf> k
<alexwolf> hmm
<alexwolf> now that i see it better
<alexwolf> eq + hammer arm is the best way true
<alexwolf> eq handles raikou and hammer arm ferro
<alexwolf> slowbro is handled by rotom-w
<alexwolf> sounds like a plan
<alexwolf> and bullet punch is great for kyu-b
<alexwolf> how much it does?
<alexwolf> 63-75
<alexwolf> very nice
<alexwolf> now the question is how to ev metagross
<alexwolf> seeing as bullet punch cannot OHKO Kyu-B after SR
<alexwolf> so it always need two sr rounds
<alexwolf> eq confortably ohkoes raikou and hammer arm ferro
<alexwolf> we can move some of the atk to Def or SpD to better take on raikou or kyu-b
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> I can't look at it now sorry
<alexwolf> i will try to
<alexwolf> will post in the thread i i find out anything interesting
<Melee_Mewtwo> thanks
<Melee_Mewtwo> I enjoyed this
<alexwolf> me too man
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I think I'll submit metagross
<Melee_Mewtwo> it has the typing and bulk
<alexwolf> sounds as an ok option
<Melee_Mewtwo> and Bullet PUnch which means it can still d something
<Melee_Mewtwo> even when weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> or am I forgetting something?
<alexwolf> what moves are you thinking?
<Melee_Mewtwo> MM, Bullet, Tpunch, EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> Tpunch 2HKOs slowbro
<Melee_Mewtwo> EQ covers steels and raikou
<Melee_Mewtwo> MM for STAB
<alexwolf> does it 2HKO Slowbro though?
<Melee_Mewtwo> bullet punch is good prio
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> cb or lefties?
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> CB
<alexwolf> hmm
<Melee_Mewtwo> it needs the punch
<alexwolf> i don't like cb
<Melee_Mewtwo> for relevant Bullet punches
<alexwolf> rly easy to abuse
<alexwolf> especially with slowbro
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> but slowbro also has to handle terrakion
<Melee_Mewtwo> and is easy to handle with ourselves
<alexwolf> i would rly prefer a lefties variant with toxic over t-punch maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> that's a green light for rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> problem with lefties is that Bullet Punch is a lot weaker
<alexwolf> how much does slowbro lose from cb t=punch?
<Melee_Mewtwo> however
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 188-222 (47.71 - 56.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could run
<Melee_Mewtwo> toxic over tpunch
<Melee_Mewtwo> just needs that one good prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> or trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> for once the big threats are gone
<alexwolf> i don't think that trying to 2hko bro is a good idea
<Melee_Mewtwo> it can throw away the CB at him
<alexwolf> too unreliable
<alexwolf> and add in regenerator
<Melee_Mewtwo> mm I see
<alexwolf> =trouble
<alexwolf> toxic is better
<alexwolf> problem is
<alexwolf> let's see
<Melee_Mewtwo> actually a double switch to rotom is probably best but yeah
<alexwolf> is there anything significant that can setup on us with a moveset of mm, eq, bp, toxic
<Melee_Mewtwo> I may put trick just for that
<alexwolf> yeah trick works too
<Melee_Mewtwo> we just double switch rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> same amount of prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> until CB isn't needed
<Melee_Mewtwo> then fling that away
<alexwolf> slowbro just stays in
<alexwolf> oh rotom-w
<alexwolf> roght
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> it has signal beam
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> and ebelt
<alexwolf> so bro can't stay in
<Melee_Mewtwo> and volt switch does like 80%
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep yep
<alexwolf> slack of still deals with volt switch
<alexwolf> signal beam is what scares it
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> rona stays a prob though right?
<alexwolf> volcarona i mean
<Melee_Mewtwo> um let me check
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah bullet punch only takes out 21%
<Melee_Mewtwo> but terrakion also has CB quick attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> and SR
<Melee_Mewtwo> should be enough
<Melee_Mewtwo> we'll have to play things safe but
<alexwolf> what about max HP Rona?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah I calced max
<alexwolf> and what about gyarados?
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 216 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 78-93 (21.36 - 25.47%) -- 2.73% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> gdos
<Melee_Mewtwo> has two bulky waters
<alexwolf> blastoise can check it
<Melee_Mewtwo> and a zappy
<Melee_Mewtwo> to fight against yeah
<alexwolf> true
<alexwolf> and sr is down
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> same song with skarm
<Melee_Mewtwo> and trick nets us
<Melee_Mewtwo> a cripple on anything
<alexwolf> i just like lefties better to help handle the onsluaght of raikou + kyu-b
<alexwolf> which will be rly difficult otherwiose
<alexwolf> think about it
<Melee_Mewtwo> well bullet punch really needs that power
<alexwolf> raikou is out
<alexwolf> and our only option
<alexwolf> is to bring in meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> well yeah but that's the thing
<alexwolf> while raikou uses tbolt against us
<alexwolf> and then the opponent easily walls us
<Melee_Mewtwo> Raikou still comes close to a OHKO at plus 1
<alexwolf> bam
<Melee_Mewtwo> so lefties isn't fixing anything
<alexwolf> not switch in to kyu-b anymore
<alexwolf> yeah i know
<Melee_Mewtwo> Stronger bullet punch
<Melee_Mewtwo> at least lets us offensively chck kyu b
<Melee_Mewtwo> after Meta is weak
<alexwolf> idk
<alexwolf> another bad thing
<alexwolf> is that meta is ferro weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum yeah
<alexwolf> as i said again ferro would be good for opposing team
<alexwolf> walls rotom-w which they currenly lack a counter against
<alexwolf> and sets up spikes that toise has trouble spinning
<Melee_Mewtwo> can spike/sr on blastiose
<alexwolf> while also wearing down meta with iron barbs
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could run hammer arm over trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> or maybe trick is enough idk
<alexwolf> this is the main reason i don't like jirachi
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> trick is definitely not enough
<alexwolf> it can cripple one of bro and ferro
<alexwolf> not both
<Melee_Mewtwo> well rotom should handle bro but you are right
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 232-274 (72.27 - 85.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could drop EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> for hammer arm
<alexwolf> fuck we rly should have gone with roar on zapdos
<alexwolf> yeah i guess
<alexwolf> but the fucking prob remains
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah roar zappy
<alexwolf> after raikou butchers up our meta
<alexwolf> kyu-b sweeps
<Melee_Mewtwo> would fix everythign right now
<Melee_Mewtwo> well if meta is still alive
<Melee_Mewtwo> it can at least deal
<alexwolf> meta can't ohko raikou with hammer punch
<alexwolf> so we need to sac it
<alexwolf> in order to bring something in safe
<alexwolf> namely terra
<alexwolf> to OHKO with quick attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 222-264 (56.77 - 67.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> hmmm
<alexwolf> yeah but hammer punch doesnt ohko raikou
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah true
<alexwolf> this is the problem
<Melee_Mewtwo> 6% short
<Melee_Mewtwo> needs more superpower
<alexwolf> yeah damn
<alexwolf> it is fucking annoying how medicore pokes such as raikou can be such bitches to deal with in this project
<alexwolf> this fucking thing ruined everything ):
<Melee_Mewtwo> I think what is more annoying
<Melee_Mewtwo> is how one little moveset error
<Melee_Mewtwo> ie roar
<Melee_Mewtwo> can come back to bite soo hard
<alexwolf> yeah this too
<Melee_Mewtwo> you have to look forward for everything
<alexwolf> the truth is that we all were fucking stupid
<Melee_Mewtwo> and really choose each of your slots
<alexwolf> stacking up on special attacks
<alexwolf> and not thinking about cm sweeprs
<Melee_Mewtwo> well not so much
<Melee_Mewtwo> we only have zappy and rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> and now blastiose
<alexwolf> 3 guys
<alexwolf> that's a lot
<Melee_Mewtwo> most of our punch comes from chomp and terrkaion though
<alexwolf> without insurace
<Melee_Mewtwo> but yeah having a special wall
<Melee_Mewtwo> that is CM setup fodder
<Melee_Mewtwo> sucks
<alexwolf> at least we learned that phazing is god in this project
<alexwolf> not that we alrdy didnt know it
<alexwolf> what's your opinion about scarfmence?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah its interesting
<alexwolf> subcm raikou rapes though
<Melee_Mewtwo> well it doesn't hit as hard
<Melee_Mewtwo> ah but yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> it kicks ass too darn
<Melee_Mewtwo> I could
<Melee_Mewtwo> try hammer arm over trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> with EQ
<Melee_Mewtwo> means meta is slowbro fodder
<Melee_Mewtwo> but slowbro is rotom fodder
<alexwolf> maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> it'll be cutting even
<alexwolf> but still needs rly good prediction
<Melee_Mewtwo> which is good enough
<alexwolf> also don't forget that bp is very easy to see coming
<Melee_Mewtwo> well rotom beats everything one on one cept kyu
<alexwolf> and this can be abused
<Melee_Mewtwo> which meta handles
<Melee_Mewtwo> well yeah
<alexwolf> i guess
<Melee_Mewtwo> but by who?
<Melee_Mewtwo> no other setup sweepers
<alexwolf> anything that comes into bullet punch
<Melee_Mewtwo> just jirachi can come in
<Melee_Mewtwo> and X 6 mon
<alexwolf> jirachi yeah
<alexwolf> and the last mon
<alexwolf> while team 1 save kyi-b for one more kill
<alexwolf> before it dies to sr
<Melee_Mewtwo> mmm
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> what about sashzam?
<alexwolf> with t-wave?
<Melee_Mewtwo> Scarf mence
<Melee_Mewtwo> overwhelms
<alexwolf> true
<alexwolf> fuck
<Melee_Mewtwo> I was also thinking prankster
<Melee_Mewtwo> but no good users
<Melee_Mewtwo> unless maybe
<Melee_Mewtwo> liepard
<Melee_Mewtwo> :D
<Melee_Mewtwo> swagger play
<Melee_Mewtwo> luck > skill
<alexwolf> this sounds legit
<alexwolf> fuck skill
<alexwolf> this is time for guts
<alexwolf> still the odds are against us as swagger only has 45% chance to give a free turn
<alexwolf> and kyu-b doesn't need to go for outrage as d-claw destroyes everything
<alexwolf> so sub spamming wont work
<Melee_Mewtwo> Well we can sub spam
<Melee_Mewtwo> and it has twave
<Melee_Mewtwo> iirc
<alexwolf> yeah but when will you find a free turn to use t-wave
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep it does
<Melee_Mewtwo> well you sack him I guess
<alexwolf> fight starts
<alexwolf> lieaprd vs kyub
<Melee_Mewtwo> ah yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> true
<alexwolf> you sack it and then scar mence
<alexwolf> sweeps
<Melee_Mewtwo> then you can't beat mence yeah
<alexwolf> same thing with zam
<alexwolf> also it will be very difficult for scarfmence to work on us
<alexwolf> as slowbri cockblocks it
<alexwolf> even dmetero won't do more that 60%
<alexwolf> which is not that hard to recover
<Melee_Mewtwo> ouch
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> lemme check
<alexwolf> mence needs 240 SpA EVs to 2HKO Bro with DM after SR
<alexwolf> and we can't take them out from speed
<alexwolf> as we need to speed tie volcarona
<alexwolf> so then outrage becomes piss poor weak
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> crap
<alexwolf> is there rly no option than getting crushed?
<alexwolf> this is a godamn huge challenge
<alexwolf> outsmarting ourselves
<Melee_Mewtwo> IDK
<Melee_Mewtwo> Meta is tough
<Melee_Mewtwo> but it can still pull it off it seemse
<Melee_Mewtwo> you'll have to play super smart
<alexwolf> what about cloyster?
<alexwolf> shel smash with hp grass/electric for slowbro
<alexwolf> sets up on kyu-b
<Melee_Mewtwo> does it tank enough?
<Melee_Mewtwo> and I calced that same set
<alexwolf> it can tank an outrage yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> signal beam is better
<alexwolf> takes 76% damage tops
<Melee_Mewtwo> and it needs too much investment
<Melee_Mewtwo> for OHKO
<alexwolf> cloyster has singal beam?
<Melee_Mewtwo> yep
<Melee_Mewtwo> but it needs too much
<Melee_Mewtwo> you'll have to take from attack
<Melee_Mewtwo> which'll make it lesser
<Melee_Mewtwo> and then
<Melee_Mewtwo> you need sash since
<Melee_Mewtwo> a lead raikou destroys you otherwise
<Melee_Mewtwo> I was also thinking smeargle
<Melee_Mewtwo> for smash pass
<Melee_Mewtwo> but nothing can really take that to sweep
<Melee_Mewtwo> garchomp comes close
<Melee_Mewtwo> but needs some prior damage on rachi
<Melee_Mewtwo> which smeargle is short term
<alexwolf> the azelf pick rly fucked chomp over
<Melee_Mewtwo> we won't be getting that
<alexwolf> actually lead raikou doesnt not outright sweep if it leads
<alexwolf> if we lead with terra it is forced out
<alexwolf> but next time it finds a switch in
<alexwolf> it is over
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum yeah
<alexwolf> evilote chansey comes close to walling kyu-b but it doesnt
<alexwolf> it can tank 2 d-claws but not outrage
<alexwolf> and loses horribly to many stuff
<alexwolf> breloom, viri, terra
<alexwolf> i think the best approach right now
<alexwolf> is to find a sweepr that can set-up once against raikou and kyu-b
<alexwolf> and fuck shit up
<Melee_Mewtwo> I tried
<Melee_Mewtwo> can't find anything
<Melee_Mewtwo> I looked at venomoth
<Melee_Mewtwo> but nothing can really benefit from the passes
<alexwolf> rona could have been nice as a lead but blissey/chansey stop it
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<alexwolf> we can't even chose ditto as team 1 has kyu-b covered...
<Melee_Mewtwo> ditto
<Melee_Mewtwo> lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> didn't think of him
<alexwolf> what about SD + Ice Shard + Night Slash + Low Kick Adamant Focus Sash Weavile
<alexwolf> beats Kyu-B and Raikou 1-on-1
<alexwolf> and OHKOes everything on team 1 at +2, except from jirachi i think
<alexwolf> yeah rachi survives
<alexwolf> nah i was thinking about salac berry on weavile to outspeed kyu-b
<alexwolf> but we can't use two items at the same time lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> lol
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah shame
<alexwolf> huge brainfart on my part
<alexwolf> i can't find something, so go ahead and post cb meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> k
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh wait
<Melee_Mewtwo> I got it
<Melee_Mewtwo> hammer arm with trick
<Melee_Mewtwo> either A
<Melee_Mewtwo> raikou is too weak to stand a hammer arm
<Melee_Mewtwo> cause it had a bit of prio damage setting up
<Melee_Mewtwo> like zappy volt switch
<Melee_Mewtwo> or b
<Melee_Mewtwo> we just trick it a CB
<Melee_Mewtwo> and cripple him
<Melee_Mewtwo> y/n?
<alexwolf> sub says hi though
<Melee_Mewtwo> well sub is weaker in general
<alexwolf> so we can't rly trick
<alexwolf> raikou doesnt care
<Melee_Mewtwo> and hammer arm spam is as good as eq
<alexwolf> it still sets up all over us
<Melee_Mewtwo> its harder
<Melee_Mewtwo> since a conservative zappy
<alexwolf> the bad thing with sub
<Melee_Mewtwo> ruins a lot of that
<Melee_Mewtwo> and rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> beats it
<Melee_Mewtwo> and terrakion
<Melee_Mewtwo> can tank a hit
<alexwolf> is that raikou can just use a sub to scout
<alexwolf> and then switch out
<alexwolf> while it slowly wears down meta with tbols
<alexwolf> as it comes in
<alexwolf> but maybe it can work idk
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum true
<Melee_Mewtwo> darn is there a niche item
<Melee_Mewtwo> we are overlooking?
<alexwolf> idk
<alexwolf> i am currently looking at trash such as pilowsine atm
<alexwolf> the real big fucking annoyance is that
<alexwolf> we cant choose physical sweeprs
<alexwolf> as most of them are fucking walled by bro
<Melee_Mewtwo> shit
<Melee_Mewtwo> I got it
<alexwolf> for example sash mamo could have been an ok option
<Melee_Mewtwo> fucking
<Melee_Mewtwo> scarf meta
<alexwolf> deals with both scarf mence
<alexwolf> ok explain
<Melee_Mewtwo> bulk beats kyu b
<Melee_Mewtwo> speed beats everything else
<alexwolf> and ferro/slowbro?
<Melee_Mewtwo> well fuck them
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum
<Melee_Mewtwo> slowbro still loses to rotom
<Melee_Mewtwo> so that's not tooo big a worry
<Melee_Mewtwo> ferro
<Melee_Mewtwo> let me check hammer arm
<Melee_Mewtwo> 252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-196 (47.15 - 55.68%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
<Melee_Mewtwo> not godly but
<Melee_Mewtwo> since ferro is slow
<Melee_Mewtwo> we won't need scarf
<Melee_Mewtwo> so we can trick it off
<alexwolf> hmm
<alexwolf> so we basically need to predict if the opponent will send in ferro or slowbro
<alexwolf> every time we bring in meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> well no
<Melee_Mewtwo> slowbro comes in on meta
<Melee_Mewtwo> as easily as rotom comes in on bro
<Melee_Mewtwo> and rotom is more dangerous to team 1 then bro is to us
<alexwolf> i know but rotom-w won't like a burn or paralysis
<alexwolf> and if we don't make smart double switches rotom-w could end up losing health very fast
<alexwolf> same with metagross
<alexwolf> which is only able to switch into kyu-b once
<alexwolf> with a scarf set
<Melee_Mewtwo> oh shit
<Melee_Mewtwo> hum dunno
<Melee_Mewtwo> close no matter what
<Melee_Mewtwo> hold on give me a minute
<Melee_Mewtwo> playing UPL match
<alexwolf> k
<alexwolf> hmm
<alexwolf> now that i see it better
<alexwolf> eq + hammer arm is the best way true
<alexwolf> eq handles raikou and hammer arm ferro
<alexwolf> slowbro is handled by rotom-w
<alexwolf> sounds like a plan
<alexwolf> and bullet punch is great for kyu-b
<alexwolf> how much it does?
<alexwolf> 63-75
<alexwolf> very nice
<alexwolf> now the question is how to ev metagross
<alexwolf> seeing as bullet punch cannot OHKO Kyu-B after SR
<alexwolf> so it always need two sr rounds
<alexwolf> eq confortably ohkoes raikou and hammer arm ferro
<alexwolf> we can move some of the atk to Def or SpD to better take on raikou or kyu-b
<Melee_Mewtwo> yeah
<Melee_Mewtwo> I can't look at it now sorry
<alexwolf> i will try to
<alexwolf> will post in the thread i i find out anything interesting
<Melee_Mewtwo> thanks
<Melee_Mewtwo> I enjoyed this
<alexwolf> me too man
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 117-138 (32.14 - 37.91%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 105-124 (28.84 - 34.06%) -- 2.27% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 222-264 (56.77 - 67.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-292 (70.45 - 82.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 304-359 (83.51 - 98.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 303-357 (94.98 - 111.91%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 105-124 (28.84 - 34.06%) -- 2.27% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 222-264 (56.77 - 67.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 248-292 (70.45 - 82.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 304-359 (83.51 - 98.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 303-357 (94.98 - 111.91%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
Oh and thanks ganj for giving us extra time.
80 attack adamant with 176 Spdef could be cool since it still does 50% min to Kyu B with BP and keeps that strong chance to OHKO Lando with MM.
Woah, almost missed it.
Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
-Flare Blitz
-Close Combat
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-U-Turn
What does this set do?
Scarf Infernape gives us the revenger we need that can reliably deal with almost every Pokemon on the other team. It outright beats Cube, being faster and stronger enough to OHKO, which is huge right now. Flare Blitz hits Jirachi for SE damage, while being Infernape's strongest STAB move with the EV spread. CC hits Cube, HP Ice hits Landorus, and U-Turn destroys Azelf while letting us get away from Slowbro. U-turn also alows for a strong VoltTurn core that has been started in the team already.
How can this set help the team?
This set fills the only need to the team right now which is a Scarfer. It also beats Kyurem-B, which is a huge need right now as it reinforces Garchomp to do its job and destroy most of the other team. U-Turn also gives the team huge momentum against the opponent, completing the VoltTurn core that was started but never finished. (Read ganj's post about ScarfRachi earlier, Infernape pretty much can do all that except the 2HKO part depending on the move)
What can the other team do in response to this set?
Jellicent is there, but hey, U-turn. Even though U-Turn isn't 100% reliable. Team 1 can always pick a user of Aqua Jet, as that will outright stop Infernape. Scarf MoxieMence was brought up, but I think HP Ice should be enough after SR. Gyarados is also a threat, but is stopped between Rotom-W and Zapdos (which we can U-Turn to!). The biggest threats right now are Lati@s and pretty much water types, but Water Types should be manageable. If anyone has tips for Lati@s, please don't hesitate to ask.
I don't think I need calcs, but will post them if needed.
Infernape @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
-Flare Blitz
-Close Combat
-Hidden Power [Ice]
-U-Turn
What does this set do?
Scarf Infernape gives us the revenger we need that can reliably deal with almost every Pokemon on the other team. It outright beats Cube, being faster and stronger enough to OHKO, which is huge right now. Flare Blitz hits Jirachi for SE damage, while being Infernape's strongest STAB move with the EV spread. CC hits Cube, HP Ice hits Landorus, and U-Turn destroys Azelf while letting us get away from Slowbro. U-turn also alows for a strong VoltTurn core that has been started in the team already.
How can this set help the team?
This set fills the only need to the team right now which is a Scarfer. It also beats Kyurem-B, which is a huge need right now as it reinforces Garchomp to do its job and destroy most of the other team. U-Turn also gives the team huge momentum against the opponent, completing the VoltTurn core that was started but never finished. (Read ganj's post about ScarfRachi earlier, Infernape pretty much can do all that except the 2HKO part depending on the move)
What can the other team do in response to this set?
Jellicent is there, but hey, U-turn. Even though U-Turn isn't 100% reliable. Team 1 can always pick a user of Aqua Jet, as that will outright stop Infernape. Scarf MoxieMence was brought up, but I think HP Ice should be enough after SR. Gyarados is also a threat, but is stopped between Rotom-W and Zapdos (which we can U-Turn to!). The biggest threats right now are Lati@s and pretty much water types, but Water Types should be manageable. If anyone has tips for Lati@s, please don't hesitate to ask.
I don't think I need calcs, but will post them if needed.
Would a choice scarf magnezone help us at this point? It can switch into cube no problem, revenge it with flash cannon (OHKO after SR if it has a modest nature), and can trap jirachi as well, which would remove the only pokemon on team 1 that can take 2 Stone Edge from CB Terrakion. This would force team 1 into possibly picking something less productive to avoid being busted up by terrakion each time it gets to come in.
An opposing magnezone pick would make life hard for us, but it would cover most of the potential threats team 1 could pick as their last option, except for maybe volcarona...
An opposing magnezone pick would make life hard for us, but it would cover most of the potential threats team 1 could pick as their last option, except for maybe volcarona...
Would a choice scarf victini work? Hmm I wander if v-create glaciate (stop mence) u-turn to gain momentum with rotom-W. u-turn knocks it into volt switch ko range and gains us momentum easily. Trick would be the last move to cripple slowbro. Stealth rock isn't an issue cause of blastoise. We would also get the attack boost as the speed isn't necessary. It'd also be the quickest pokemon on both teams and team 1 is weak to fire clearly bar slowbro which can be volt-turned around. It also will live an outrage which is what we need. I'll post it later but there may be a clear weakness that I'm missing. Any thoughts?