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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Support Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Sunday
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I just realized ( yes, only just now realized ) that DLL's Rapid Spin still won't be doing spatchcock to the typical Ghost blockers, and that we'll be right back where we were before in regards of field hazard battle clichés. This was discussed marginally in the Concept thread, I recall.
Does anyone like the idea of inventing a Poison or Ground-type Rapid Spin for it as an alternative to the current Normal-typed one?
Poison = Dissolve?
Ground = Cracks?? ( help )
Does anyone like the idea of inventing a Poison or Ground-type Rapid Spin for it as an alternative to the current Normal-typed one?
Poison = Dissolve?
Ground = Cracks?? ( help )
Should get:
Assist - It must be able to do something with all those hands.
Block - Hands.
Encore - If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.
Follow Me - Seems kinda obvious that a Pokemon that has many hands can catch the attention.
Helping Hand - Obvious.
Knock Off - The hands can do it.
Light Screen - Screens are a given.
Metronome - It's got enough fingers to pull it off.
Mud Sport - Kinda obvious.
Poison Gas - It's a Poison type.
Rapid Spin - That's what the spike on its head is for, yes?
Reflect - I think Reflect/Light Screen should be a given.
Sand Tomb - Ground move, and it has sand in the art, so it could work conceptually.
Sleep Talk - Well, almost every Pokemon gets it.
Snatch - With so many hands, Snatch is very plausible.
Stealth Rock - It is a Ground type, is it not?
Switcheroo (and/or Trick) - A simple sleight of hand.
Taunt - It'll give you more middle fingers than you can shake a stick at.
Teeter Dance - Why not? With so many hands, I'm sure its dance will be very confusing!
Thief - So many hands are sure to pick someone's pocket.
Tickle - Hands?
Toxic - Obvious. Everyone and their grandmother gets Toxic.
Toxic Spikes - It's a Poison type.
Trick Room - I can see it happening, and it was one of the reasons this was made.
Debatable
Spikes - Well, it does have Spikes on its elbows. Maybe?
Tailwind - It would be great to have on a Pokemon like this, but how is it going to summon Tailwind?
Whirlwind - Maybe the hands could do it. Not sure.
Wish - Again, it would be cool to have, but how will it work conceptually?
Assist - It must be able to do something with all those hands.
Block - Hands.
Encore - If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.
Follow Me - Seems kinda obvious that a Pokemon that has many hands can catch the attention.
Helping Hand - Obvious.
Knock Off - The hands can do it.
Light Screen - Screens are a given.
Metronome - It's got enough fingers to pull it off.
Mud Sport - Kinda obvious.
Poison Gas - It's a Poison type.
Rapid Spin - That's what the spike on its head is for, yes?
Reflect - I think Reflect/Light Screen should be a given.
Sand Tomb - Ground move, and it has sand in the art, so it could work conceptually.
Sleep Talk - Well, almost every Pokemon gets it.
Snatch - With so many hands, Snatch is very plausible.
Stealth Rock - It is a Ground type, is it not?
Switcheroo (and/or Trick) - A simple sleight of hand.
Taunt - It'll give you more middle fingers than you can shake a stick at.
Teeter Dance - Why not? With so many hands, I'm sure its dance will be very confusing!
Thief - So many hands are sure to pick someone's pocket.
Tickle - Hands?
Toxic - Obvious. Everyone and their grandmother gets Toxic.
Toxic Spikes - It's a Poison type.
Trick Room - I can see it happening, and it was one of the reasons this was made.
Debatable
Spikes - Well, it does have Spikes on its elbows. Maybe?
Tailwind - It would be great to have on a Pokemon like this, but how is it going to summon Tailwind?
Whirlwind - Maybe the hands could do it. Not sure.
Wish - Again, it would be cool to have, but how will it work conceptually?
Would people please stop saying this without providing any reasoning. We're not (I assume) giving this thing Baton Pass! I repeat myself:
The only argument I see for Block + Encore being broken is that the Encored pokemon is forced to repeat their move again, instead of switching out (as with "normal" Encoring). But let's be realistic, even a set-up Bellyzard isn't invincible. There's no way you can argue that giving something 1 free turn is gamebreaking.
Actually, I just thought of something. Block + Encore + Counter could be a pain.
I think you have those switched. The team's only getting 3 turns of doubled speed, whereas Ninjask can almost always pull a +2 Speed boost off and have it last for forever (barring (p)Hazing of course). The only plus that Tailwind has that I can see is that you can switch out and still retain the boost, but that would leave you with only two turns turn of increased speed (not exactly scary). I suppose it also has the advantage of not being Hazed, but what actually uses Haze?
7-turn Trick Room, on the other hand, would be lethal in Doubles. Granted, Shoddy doesn't support Doubles matches, but saying "oh it doesn't matter, it can't be used in doubles anyway" just seems irresponsible.
how about just a poison typed Prevo?
I'd rather we didn't make a new Rapid Spin, although it's been discussed to death. Even one with another immunity is still annoying, because it's just one more thing to worry about in stall teams (especially if this guy got both, as you'd have to carefully predict what move it'd use each time to keep your Spikes on the field).
How is saying that just because Shoddy doesn't support Doubles and using that as a reason not to have a 7-turn Trick Room any less irrespinsible than, say, having a community vote on an ability that sounds cool in practice but almost every move it works on won't work flavor wise on the pokemon in mind? Or voting on a stat spread for something that makes it based Special and has a shitload of defenses when it looks to have no non-physical ability whatsoever and little defenses at best? I wouldn't leave it up to the community to be responsible, just a heads up.
"There's no way you can argue that giving something 1 free turn is gamebreaking."
Please unban Wobbufett then. The reasoning just about everyone used to ban him has now been proven false.
How is saying that just because Shoddy doesn't support Doubles and using that as a reason not to have a 7-turn Trick Room any less irrespinsible than, say, having a community vote on an ability that sounds cool in practice but almost every move it works on won't work flavor wise on the pokemon in mind? Or voting on a stat spread for something that makes it based Special and has a shitload of defenses when it looks to have no non-physical ability whatsoever and little defenses at best? I wouldn't leave it up to the community to be responsible, just a heads up.
"There's no way you can argue that giving something 1 free turn is gamebreaking."
Please unban Wobbufett then. The reasoning just about everyone used to ban him has now been proven false.
I actually agree with you 100% about this. I'd really, really, like for this to get [insert every support move in existence here], but I think we collectively screwed up when choosing this design, as well as the ability.
For the record, I do support Wobb's unbanning. But you cannot possibly compare Shadow Tag + Encore to Block + Encore, as in the latter case the opponent has that one vital turn to switch something in before the Block.
I would agree with you here if that was the only thing this pokemon could do. But that isn't the case. This thing has the potential to be more unpredictable than a Gengar/Mence lovechild. You won't always know it's running Block+Encore.
The free turn is not the only reason wobba re-banned (in fact it barely came up in the discussion thread). The main reason is that he could do things like this:
Wobba encores blissey into softboiled
lucario comes in
lucario SD while gliscor switches in
Wobba switches in and counters Gliscor to death
Lucario comes back in and sweeps
Even if you know they have wobba, there isn't much you can do about him revenge killing stuff and setting up other pokes, once they block+encore you once, you won't let them do it again.
Also, once again, why on earth would you leave a pokemon that can't kill a support poke with encore in against one? Do you like being set up fodder?
Wobba encores blissey into softboiled
lucario comes in
lucario SD while gliscor switches in
Wobba switches in and counters Gliscor to death
Lucario comes back in and sweeps
Even if you know they have wobba, there isn't much you can do about him revenge killing stuff and setting up other pokes, once they block+encore you once, you won't let them do it again.
Also, once again, why on earth would you leave a pokemon that can't kill a support poke with encore in against one? Do you like being set up fodder?
Funny we're considering giving this Counter as well. And Tickle has been mentioned more than once.
And from what I saw it did come into the discussion. I suppose I would play that situation a bit differently. Instead of setting up Lucario on Blissey I would have used Safeguard then set up something more like Azelf or something like NPTogekiss who can then actually beat Blissey. Ultimately it wouldn't matter though.
I was assuming Encore wouldn't be on every set. Though if it is I suppose you have a point.
EDIT-
also he has 109/80 defenses and more than likely a healing move, wobba has 58 defense and leftovers recovery so while this guy won't do as much damage right away he can always heal himself.
The only things I can see this trapping are either things that can completely counter it or Ghost Pokemon trying to block Rapid Spin. It could Toxic Stall the Ghosts (except Gengar) but other than that you would ruin the surprise value by Blocking Garchomp or Syclant and give them a free turn to set up.
The concept was Utility pokemon not anti ghost rapid spinner, if it gets rapid spin fine but its focus should be on using as many utility moves as possible not making it an anti ghost spinner.
I think Block and Toxic more than makes it an anti-ghost Rapid Spinner, if we give it Block. Of course, I think Block opens up more potential problems than its worth.
And in Double Battles, is two more turns of Trick Room really that bad? Especially when double Earthquake kills it with or without Focus Sash. Also, one would think that most double battles are won before a normal Trick Room ends. Do the two turns matter if they aren't even used? (This is just from reading warstories, I have no DP double battle experience.)
And in Double Battles, is two more turns of Trick Room really that bad? Especially when double Earthquake kills it with or without Focus Sash. Also, one would think that most double battles are won before a normal Trick Room ends. Do the two turns matter if they aren't even used? (This is just from reading warstories, I have no DP double battle experience.)
Honestly my concept for anti Ghost Rapid Spinner mostly revolved around being able to competently use Shadow Ball/Sucker Punch/Pursuit and not dying to Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, or Thunderbolt. That this has Vital Spirit is just a nail in the coffin if I can sneak Pursuit and Sucker Punch onto its moveset >_>.
A Trick Room/Tailwind duality would be pretty cool. Since Trick Room turns Tail Wind on its head.
I'm not talking about an anti-Ghost spinner. I'm just saying that it will usually just end up Blocking Garchomp or Syclant and waste a turn. Blocking a Ghost Pokemon is just the best case scenerio. I'm saying that Block isn't broken even with Encore because it will be used as a free switch in.
Ok, right now I'm probably going to take the following moves into the poll to determine if they should be banned or not:
Wish
Slack Off
Block/Spider Web
Tailwind
Gravity
Heal Block
Yawn
Simple yes/no votes, and you must vote on everything. I see no reason Toxic Spikes or Spikes should be banned. Counter seems fine, Mirror Coat seems weird, so I'm leaning towards shying away from it. Whirlwind is silly, since Roar is a TM.
Anything else?
EDIT: NOT IN THIS THREAD. I WILL MAKE A NEW ONE.
Wish
Slack Off
Block/Spider Web
Tailwind
Gravity
Heal Block
Yawn
Simple yes/no votes, and you must vote on everything. I see no reason Toxic Spikes or Spikes should be banned. Counter seems fine, Mirror Coat seems weird, so I'm leaning towards shying away from it. Whirlwind is silly, since Roar is a TM.
Anything else?
EDIT: NOT IN THIS THREAD. I WILL MAKE A NEW ONE.
this thing doesn't even have a mouth to roar.
Technically, it does have a mouth. There was a picture that shown it as well as that animation.
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