CAP 4 CAP 4 - Support Moves Discussion

[Sunday]

This thread is dedicated to, as the title alludes, the discussion of which support moves should be allowed (and more importantly, which ones should be outright "Banned") from this Pokemon's movepool. Please keep discussion civil and in a debate like format. Keep in mind that despite being the "Ultimate Support Pokemon" there is limited room on this Pokemon's movepool, as we will, I fear, discover quite shortly.

Here is a list of all non-attacking moves.
If there's a Smogon version out there then I'd love to be using it!

Pure Utility Pokemon

Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.

Primary Typing: Poison
Secondary Typing: Ground
Style Bias: Mixed, Between -5 and -10 -- Slightly towards defence
Build Bias: Between 5 and 10 -- Slightly towards physical
Base Stat Rating: 300 to 419 -- Very Good
Base Stat Spread: 95 / 76 / 109 / 90 / 80 / 105 = 555 Speed Last.
Primary Ability: Persistant
Secondary Ability: Vital Spirit

 

[Sunday]

I'm going to start this off:

Obviously should get
Screens
Trick Room
Gravity
Disable - I love Fast Disable vs Chomp who's just used EQ on your last Poke
Encore
Counter - I can see it using counter now... maybe a bit debatable.
"Every Pokemon" TM moves, duh. Rain Dance/Toxic etc.
Stealth Rocks


Borderline/Debatable
U-Turn - Fast 7 turn TR to very slow U-Turn's pretty powerful!
Tailwind - 5 turns of Double Speed. Think carefully folks!
Heal Bell
Mirror Coat - Both reflecting moves could be a bit much...
Slack Off - 50% heal, do we want it or not?
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Status moves in general.
Trick
Yawn

Should Not Get (IMO)
Stat Up moves. Batton Pass
Aqua Ring - Stupid, pointless, bad flavourwise.
A sleep inducing move

 

[the_artic_one]

Some ideas I had:

Taunt - flavor and one of the main reasons we wanted fast utility
Block/Spiderweb- one of the things we wanted to begin with
Snatch- it's in the original concept and fits flavorwise
Acupressure - may make for a neat novelty set mostly flavor though

I'm against heal bell and tailwind honestly, neither one really fits and boosted tailwind seems a bit ridiculous.

I'm for spikes and t-spikes because the metagame needs more viable users of those moves.

 

[Time Mage]

I'm going to follow Sunday's format, seems quite adequate:

Obviously should get
Screens.
Trick Room.
Gravity.
Tailwind.
Encore.
Basically all TM support moves, except those completely unfitting flavor-wise.
Spikes.
Toxic Spikes.


Borderline/Debatable
U-Turn.
Status moves in general.
Trick.
Yawn.
Wish.
Taunt.
Heal Block.

Should Not Get (IMO)
Stat Up moves.
Baton Pass.
Aqua Ring.
A sleep inducing move.
Self healing other than Rest.


Why Tailwind is NOT broken: Think of it as using Agility and BPing it, but having only 3 turns (use+switch+3 = 5 with Persistent) to utilize it. It has the advantage of not being PHazed, but just that.

Why not using recovery: This has one status immunity (plus thunder wave immunity, which makes it nearly two immunities), resistance to fighting, bug and rock (and electric), making it a great switch in against many statusers and physical attackers. With Leftovers and a smart use, it can last for a while without having to rely on recovery. Plus, this will have a BIG 4 moveslots syndrome, so getting rid of the healing option is not that bad.

Taunt: It's not borderline because of brokenness, but because I think it conflicts a bit with Encore. But anyway, its definitely a move it can use.

I'll write more later.

 

[latinoheat]

assist
block
captivate
copycat
disable
encore
fake out
follow me
gravity
helping hand
light screen
mimic
poison gas/powder
toxic
protect
psych up
reflect
safeguard
substitute
toxic spikes
spikes
snatch
whirlwind
rapid spin
trick room
me first

 

[Jhonny]

Obviously should get
Encore
Gravity
Helping Hand
Light Screen
Reflect
Spider Web
Spikes
Toxic Spikes

Could/Would be interesting to have
Assist
Barrier
Baton Pass
Block
Captivate
Detect
Disable
Embargo
Gastro Acid
Guard Swap
Metronome (but don't)
Mud Sport
Power Swap
Snatch
Power Trick
Protect
Rest
Substitute
Switcheroo
Taunt
On this list barrier and baton pass are interesting but including them is contentious.

Should not get
Teleport
Healing moves other than rest.

There are other moves to go in each list I just didn't realise that there are so many fucking moves.

 

[X-Act]

Should get:

Assist - With so many hands... it can surely assist your team. :)
Block - Again, many hands, so easy to block the foe's escape!
Encore - Forgot about this, yes it should have it.
Follow Me - Seems kinda obvious that a Pokemon that has many hands can catch the attention.
Helping Hand - Kinda obvious.
Knock Off - The hands can do it.
Light Screen - I think Reflect/Light Screen should be a given.
Metronome - It involves waggling a finger. So why not?
Mud Sport - Kinda obvious.
Poison Gas - It's a Poison type.
Rapid Spin - It can spin on its head, so yeah.
Reflect - I think Reflect/Light Screen should be a given.
Sand Tomb - It's a Ground move, and it's capable of learning it conceptually.
Sleep Talk - Well, almost every Pokemon gets it.
Snatch - With so many hands, Snatch is very plausible.
Switcheroo (and/or Trick) - Hands hands hands.
Taunt - Yes it can certainly taunt you.
Teeter Dance - Why not? With so many hands, I'm sure its dance will be very confusing!
Thief - The hands can do it.
Tickle - Hands?
Toxic - Obvious.
Toxic Spikes - It's a Poison type.
Trick Room - Yes I can see this getting it.


Maybe it can also get:

Disable - Could be cool, but does it fit flavour-wise?
Gastro Acid - It's a Poison type, but I don't see anything gastrointestinal in it.
Gravity - I don't see how this can use this move... I mean, conceptually.
Heal Block - Again, conceptually I don't see how this Pokemon can use this.
Tailwind - How is it gonna summon tailwind?
Whirlwind - Maybe spinning its hands repeatedly can make a whirlwind? Hmm...
Wish - I don't see it able to learn this move.

 

[gengod]

I agree with most of X- Act's list, I dont see this thing getting Gravity, Tail Wind or Wish either at least from an aesthetic standpoint. One other thing from X-Act's list i disagree with is Poison Powder. This thing doesnt really look as if it should get any form of Powder attack even if it is just Poison Powder.

In addition to X-Act's list I think all of the following moves could be possible.

Agility - Its already relatively fast and easily looks as if it could "relax it's body to heighten speed" as the description of Agility says.

Disable - With all of those hands coming at you I don't see how it couldn't use Disable.

Encore - Everyone pretty much agrees with this anyway.

Hypnosis - The description for Hypnosis reads "A hypnotizing move that may induce sleep". I'm sure all of those hands together maybe twirling about in some particular fashion could cause some form of Hypnosis, just seems like an interesting move flavour-wise.

Imprision - I dont know how this move looks face to face but the concept of it Imprisoning a pokemon with it's many arms seems feasible, i'm a bit iffy on this one.

Nasty Plot - I know this isn't meant to be primarly an attacker but with a low Special Attack score and with only Ground and Poison as STAB moves it shouln't cause too much trouble, and the second picture above just scrreams out as something that can be doing a scheming a "Nasty Plot" while underground...etc.

Mud Sport - It works flavour-wise.

Rock Polish - Not sure how this one works but most Ground types seem to have it.

Torment - I could easily imagine this Pokemon Tormenting another, abusing its hands to do so.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Obviously should get
Me First
Screens
Trick Room
Gravity
Rapid Spin - Turbo Rotation Power :0
Encore
Counter
Taunt
Toxic Spikes
Spikes
Stealth Rocks
Knock Off
U-Turn - Technically this is a support/attack move.
Slack Off/Recover - For the love of God yes, people constant fear towards this scares me at times.
Every support TM that hasn't been individually pointed out.

Borderline/Debatable
Tailwind - See Rapid Spin also what's the point of having an ability that help a move if it's can't learn it.
Wish - Probably.
Status moves in general.
Trick

Should Not Get
Heal Bell
Block - Waste of space
Any Stat Up moves
Disable
Baton Pass
Yawn
Any slow heal move like Aqua Ring or Leech Seed.
Any Sleep inducing moves in general

 

[darkjjak]

I'd be more inclined to support (pardon the pun) Poison Gas on this than Poison Powder. This isn't a bug that has scales (Venomoth, Dustox, etc.) nor is this a plant with flowers and pollen (Vileplume, Venasaur, etc.).

I also want to put in mention for Copycat/Mimic; Guard Swap, Power Swap, and Power Trick.

I like those Dark support moves too (Torment, Taunt, Snatch, even Thief).

So why are people saying to consider Yawn, yet they don't want Sleep-inducing moves?

 

[Havak]

Should get

Assist
Block
Counter
Detect
Disable
Encore
Follow Me
Helping Hand
Imprision
Knock Off
Light Screen
Metronome
Mud Sport
Protect
Rapid Spin
Reflect
Sand Tomb
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Stealth Rock
Switcheroo
Taunt
Teeter Dance
Thief
Tickle
Torment
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Trick
Trick Room
U-turn

I'm rather undecided on moves like Gravity and Tailwind, though moves like this were why a utility Pokémon was created, it doesn't seem as though it could pull them off... Possibly pulling things down to ground level with the hands could work. But Tailwind, I'm unsure.

 

[Dane]

Obviously should get
Assist
Disable
Encore
Endure
Follow Me
Gravity
Haze
Helping Hand
Imprison
Me First
Metronome
Moon Light / Rest
Mud Sport
Protect
Rain Dance
Safeguard
Sandstorm
Screens
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Spider Web
Stealth Rocks
Substitute
Swagger
Sunny Day
Taunt
Torment
Toxic
Trick Room


Borderline/Debatable
Aromatherapy
Block
Counter
Heal Bell
Heal Block
Mirror Coat
Psycho Shift
Tailwind
Toxic Spikes
Trick
U-Turn

Should Not Get
Aqua Ring
Baton Pass
Paralysis Move
Sleep Move
Spikes
Stat Up moves


I'll edit this with reasons later (and maybe cut the list down to a reasonable size), have to go to class now.

 

[Nasty Pass]

Obvious ones:
'Every Pokemon' TM moves (Toxic, Attract, etc.)
Screens
Encore
U-Turn
Knock Off
Stealth Rock
Safeguard
Rapid Spin
Taunt

Maybe:
Gravity
Toxic Spikes
Switcheroo/Trick
Follow Me
Will-O-Wisp
Block
Heal Block
Wish
Disable

No:
Thunder Wave
Hypnosis
Baton Pass
Tailwind (makes absolutely no sense flavor-wise)
Aqua Ring (see: Tailwind)

 

[X-Act]

I edited my list with things I overlooked.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I've been throwing this out for like ever and I'll say it again, he rotate that purple mid-section like a helicopter blade thus enabling him to use Rapid Spin and Tailwind.

BTW, silly question but would moves like Icy Wind and Rock Smash be considered support move. I mean, you're most likely be using them for their effect rather than their power right?

 

[gorm]

encore+tspikes is pretty sick tbh xD;;;

Yes:
Screens
Encore
U-Turn
Knock Off
Stealth Rock
Rapid Spin
Taunt
Disable
Toxic Spikes
Stealth Rock
Trick Roomw

Maybe:
Gravity
Switcheroo/Trick
Follow Me
Block
Heal Block
Safeguard
Spikes
Tailwind
Trick
Yawn

No:
Thunder Wave
Hypnosis
Will-O-Wisp
Wish

 

[Lunar Fang]

Obvious moves
Toxic Spikes
Trick Room
Gravity
Disable
Encore
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes
Light Screen
Reflect
Safeguard
Assist
Haze

Could possibly work out
Heal Bell
Pain Split
Mirror Coat
Spikes
Trick
Yawn
Knock off
Rapid Spin
Counter
Taunt
Protect
Detect
Assist
Block
Slack off

Shouldn't get
Stat increase moves
Baton Pass
Recover
Aqua Ring
Ingrain
Leech Seed

I think I got everything..

 

[latinoheat]

do we really have to give it stealth rock, it gets a bit boring with just about every pokemon that is fairly bulky and or utlity based getting it. Let it rely on toxic spikes/spikes for entry hazards.

 

[Flounder]

Here's my list.

Obviously should get
Assist
Block
Disable
Encore
"Every Pokemon" TM moves
Follow Me
Gravity
Haze
Metronome
Screens
Snatch
Stealth Rock
Trick Room
Toxic Spikes

Borderline/Debatable
Counter
Knock Off
Heal Bell
Rapid Spin
Slack Off - I'm slightly against this, but putting it up for debate isn't a terrible idea.
Spikes
Status moves in general.
Tailwind
Trick
Wish
Yawn

Should Not Get
A sleep inducing move
Baton Pass
Every-turn Recovery moves like Leech Seed or Ingrain.
Most stat up moves.
Recover

Every time I change this, I go back and look at other people's lists, then realize I forgot something. xD

 

[Darkflagrance]

I'm rather undecided on moves like Gravity and Tailwind, though moves like this were why a utility Pokémon was created, it doesn't seem as though it could pull them off... Possibly pulling things down to ground level with the hands could work. But Tailwind, I'm unsure.

Consider many Bug-type pokemon such as Venomoth possess Psychic as a move when it does not really look as if they are Psychic. From this, we can infer that Bug-type or Bug-like pokemon may be allowed to possess Psychic powers. From there, we can extrapolate that our daddy long legs pokemon may also have bug-related psychic abilities, perhaps even exceptional ones that allow it to manipulate the world to a great degree, even enough to allow for Tailwind and Gravity.

This is the ultimate utility pokemon. Enough precedents exist for unusual powers not necessarily obvious from a pokemon's art that we shouldn't allow the art to limit the pokemon's abilities. In addition, we can always change the pokemon's flavor text to accomodate any moves we decide to add.

Obviously should get
Screens
Trick Room
Gravity
Encore
"Every Pokemon" TM moves, duh. Rain Dance/Toxic etc. (also Rest)
Entry hazards
Tailwind
Heal Bell
Haze

Borderline/Debatable
U-Turn
Stat Up moves. Baton Pass
Counter/Mirror Coat
Status moves in general.
Trick
Roar or Whirlwind?

Should Not Get (IMO)
Aqua Ring
A sleep inducing move

 

[tennisace]

Giant List ahoy!

Obvious moves
Trick Room
Disable
Encore
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes
Spikes
Light Screen
Reflect
Safeguard
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Taunt
Trick
U-Turn
Gravity
Wish
Haze

Maybe:
Follow Me
Me First
Heal Block
Assist
Endure
Helping Hand
Imprison
Metronome
Protect
Gravity

Shouldn't get
Heal Bell
Pain Split
Mirror Coat
Yawn
Counter
Protect
Detect
Assist
Any healing move besides Wish/Rest
Stat increase moves
Baton Pass
Aqua Ring - (Where did these come from?)
Ingrain
Leech Seed
Tailwind
Status Inducing Moves
Weather Moves
Aromatherapy/Heal Bell
Any trapping move.

do we really have to give it stealth rock, it gets a bit boring with just about every pokemon that is fairly bulky and or utlity based getting it. Let it rely on toxic spikes/spikes for entry hazards.

Its an "every pokemon" TM, so yes.

I've been throwing this out for like ever and I'll say it again, he rotate that purple mid-section like a helicopter blade thus enabling him to use Rapid Spin and Tailwind.

BTW, silly question but would moves like Icy Wind and Rock Smash be considered support move. I mean, you're most likely be using them for their effect rather than their power right?

No, they're attacks.

EDIT: Soup brought up a good point, Block+Encore is broken.

 

[Nasty Pass]

Its an "every pokemon" TM, so yes.

Er, no, it isn't.

 

[tennisace]

Er, no, it isn't.

That looks like every rock, ground, and steel type to me.

 

[Nasty Pass]

Looks like it to me too- it doesn't look like every Pokemon though.

 

[tennisace]

Looks like it to me too- it doesn't look like every Pokemon though.

So what's your point? That it's not every pokemon, it's every sandstorm-immune pokemon, and I'm wrong because of it?