CAP 4 CAP 4 - Attacking Moves Discussion

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Daddy Longlegs is faster than Garchomp already,so the speed drop shouldn't matter too much. If you want to survive an EQ that badly for whatever reason, try Reflect.

I like the idea of an attacking move that's used mainly for its side-effect, but I think Tennis is right both that it's not a great use of those limited level-up/egg moves and that it's a stretch thematically. Best idea I can think of would be to give it to the same pre-evo that people are suggestion to justify Tailwind. Probably still support it in the next topic, since that doesn't actually mandate inclusion in the final movepool.

Elemental beams I'd prefer to avoid because I think it's more interesting - and more fitting of a utility Pokemon - to use weaker, more off-the-path moves instead. I don't see any of them being broken or anything if we did include them.

Close Combat I'd oppose, on thematic grounds as much as anything. Honestly Fighting combos pretty poorly with Ground, the redundancy in type coverage is massive. Brick Break and Drain Punch are okay because they're TMs, though they're more flavor moves than anything. Maybe Focus Punch would work. Anything else feels like a waste of a precious moveslot that could be going to something like Wish or Rapid Spin.

Stone Edge is a stock move for fully evolved Ground types, only Wormadam doesn't get it. It's not even remotely overpowered, I see no thematic reason to avoid it, feels like a no-brainer to me.

Shadow Ball I'd support because it hits the Ghost types that block Rapid Spin and tend to spit on its STAB moves. Dunno if anyone would actually use it on a spinning set, but seems good enough on paper to justify including on the TM list.

Energy Ball hits Ground and Water types that might switch-in super-effective. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing overall, since the likes of Suicune and Vaporeon should scare it off pretty easily even with Energy Ball and I don't see this being hard to counter either way. Open to arguments here.

Psychic I don't care about either way.
 
I also like to say that Swampert can actually survive an Energy Ball coming from Mr. Spider *big surprise*. Giving this guy Energy Ball won't make him overpowering as seen here.

Utility Spider aka No Special Attack EV Energy Ball being flung against:

0/0 Dugtrio: 67.3% - 79.62%
Duggy is faster and EQ you to hell.

252/88 Hippo: 29.52% - 34.76%
WTF, 3HKO at best.

64/0 Mamoswine: 42.44% - 50.4%
CB Ice Shard say Hi to Mr. Spider

124/0 Milotic: 24.31% - 28.73%
Don't mispredict or you're dead.

160/0 Starmie: 40.53% - 47.84%
Doesn't help that this starfish is faster than you.

252/0 Suicune: 23.27% - 27.72%

252/0 Swampert: 57.43% - 68.32%
Mud Puppy lives :O

188/0 Vaporeon: 24.55% - 29.02%
No KOing this water dog soon.

As you can see, Energy Ball isn't as overpowering as you thought it as. It does give our fellow spider something to use against Ground and Water types and does add a little spice within it's attack options.
 
I also like to say that Swampert can actually survive an Energy Ball coming from Mr. Spider *big surprise*
Considering we gave it pretty bad attack stats, no.

Which is what people are forgetting... Even if it got all the 95 BP Beam moves, it wouldn't be able to use them because of its low Special Attack.
 
OK, who cares if he gets Ice Beam and Energy Ball and all that stuff? Ambipom gets them, but do we use those moves on him? Usually not. Same applies here. So we give him Ice Beam. Are you really going to use Ice Beam on this thing in a supporter moveset? The only moves I see being used are Earthquake/Earth power, Gunk Shot/Sludge Bomb, and rapid spin/Knock Off. All those are givens anyway. Its not that big of a deal.
 
Pretty much agreeing with GT's viewpoints in this thread.

One move I do want to highlight is U-Turn: Hand Spider should get it for sure.

Is it useful: Yes, for pseudopassing sets with Wish, Reflect and Light Screen and for Spiking and leaving with light hit.

Is it overpowered: Of course not.

Does it fit flavour-wise: All the non Bug type pokemon who get U-Turn are speedy or can fly - Hand Spider is fast and bug-like so flavour-wise it fits.
As a side note no non-bug pokemon without wings get Silver Wind or Bug Buzz so it would be unfair to give him these.

Will it take up level up move space: no it's a TM.
 

Deck Knight

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Considering we gave it pretty bad attack stats, no.

Which is what people are forgetting... Even if it got all the 95 BP Beam moves, it wouldn't be able to use them because of its low Special Attack.
No, they will be used. One of them will be on every set.

Flamethrower takes out two otherwise solid counters, Skarmory and Bronzong.

Thunderbolt takes out two otherwise solid counters, Skarmory and Gyarados, and also prevents bulky waters not named Swampert, Quagsire, Whiscash, or Gastrodon from switching in effectively.

Ice Beam takes out three otherwise solid counters, Gliscor, Salamence, and Garchomp.

Also, 90 SA isn't "low" It's average/mediocre, but that doesn't matter much if you can predict a switchin. As a matther of fact, I''m willing to bet Sludge Bomb(or Sludge Volley) + a beam can KO every nullified I mentioned above except the Water/Grounds and the Steels.

Gothic Togekiss provided some good numbers for why Energy Ball isn't overpowered.

In order to illustrate my points, I will use Metalkid's calculator with these adjustments:

The Base Power I use will be the sum of Sludge Bomb and the elemental beam's combined power, dealing Normal type damage. I'll use Politoed for the calcs.

0/0 Garchomp:

Sludge Bomb (67.5) + Ice Beam (380) = 447.5.

Damage: 94-111%.

Remember, this is with 0 SA EVs. Kick in 60 SA EVs and its a guarenteed KO combo. Garchomp is the bulkiest of the three, and Mence is nuetral on Sludge Bomb. In short: because of Ice Beam, these pokemon cannot switch in safely.

216/0 BulkyGyara

Slude Bomb (135) + Thunderbolt (380) = 515

Damage: 88-103%

This has a chance to take out BulkyGyara with 0 EVs, albeit a low chance. Once again though, just pump SA a little, and you'll get better results. 60 SA shifts this to 94-110%, a reliable KO combo, 120 SA EVs makes it a guarenteed KO combo. Either of Expelt Belt or Life Orb would also make up the difference at 0 EVs.

Stealth Rock down makes 0 EVs a 2HKO on either Chomp or Gyara with the respective move.
 

X-Act

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I suspected that OctoSludge would be a difficult exercise to code in ShoddyBattle. Because of that, I'm abandoning the idea. Even though Doug said that it is possible, he mentioned how difficult it is to create, and so I don't want him to waste time coding such a difficult move.

However, I still think this CAP is an excellent opportunity to create a viable Poison move.

Sunday said that the 'new move' will be in a next poll. How will it work? Would people be voting for one of the suggested moves? Or will only one of them be listed and we vote if it should be there or not? Am I allowed to replace my OctoSludge move with a new one (hopefully less difficult to code)?
 

Deck Knight

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I suspected that OctoSludge would be a difficult exercise to code in ShoddyBattle. Because of that, I'm abandoning the idea. Even though Doug said that it is possible, he mentioned how difficult it is to create, and so I don't want him to waste time coding such a difficult move.

However, I still think this CAP is an excellent opportunity to create a viable Poison move.

Sunday said that the 'new move' will be in a next poll. How will it work? Would people be voting for one of the suggested moves? Or will only one of them be listed and we vote if it should be there or not? Am I allowed to replace my OctoSludge move with a new one (hopefully less difficult to code)?
To be honest X-Act, the only problem in coding "OctoSludge" was hitting the next pokemon with the remaining hits. Shoddy has loads of multi-hit moves. Essentially you were creating a poison type Rock Blast, with 8 hits instead of 2-5.


My idea for a new poison move, now that I think about it?

Acid Blast
Type: Poison
Category: Special
Power Points: 10
Base Power: 80
Effect: 30% chance to sharply lower SDef, 10% chance to badly poison.
Accuracy: 100

To be honest, Acid never got an upgrade and as long as we don't pile on elemental beams, this will be awesome. It's weaker than Sludge Bomb, but has much better effects. If no effects happen, then it is weaker than Sludge Bomb, if the SDef lower happens, you might force a switch, if the badly poison happens, extra fun. If both happen, *evil grin.*
 

Sunday

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Sunday said that the 'new move' will be in a next poll. How will it work? Would people be voting for one of the suggested moves? Or will only one of them be listed and we vote if it should be there or not? Am I allowed to replace my OctoSludge move with a new one (hopefully less difficult to code)?
I meant that, if you still wanted it in at the time, I would put into the "debatable" pile and if it got the required Yes votes people would be able to use it in their movepools in the next threads. I wasn't really planning on adding any others as nothing else has had the support. Tennis' was mentioned only breifly and had few comments (and less support). If you want to replace OctoSlugde go ahead.

I'll probably give this 24 hours more before I take what few moves are debatable to the poll... off the top of my head I can't think of much more than the Elemental Beams and a few of the other TM moves... Anything specific anyone would like to mention?
 
However, I still think this CAP is an excellent opportunity to create a viable Poison move.
I'm sympathetic to this goal, but is a "Pure Utility Pokemon" the best place to experiment with new, more useful Poison attacks? This thing is already going to have a massive dogfight for those ~7 competitive level-up/egg move slots, with Wish, Block, Gravity, Tail Wind, Encore, Rapid Spin, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Counter, and Earth Power among others to consider. Any new attack would have to compete with all of these, all of which fit the utility concept better aside from Earth Power, and that's a better STAB type.

The more I look at it the more that cool stuff like Sucker Punch, Fake Out, Icy Wind, or the elemental punches seem like misfits here due to lack of room, even if there's no objections to them balance-wise. Argh, need to rethink my support for these in time for the actual poll. :/
 
What is the state of Arm Thrust and Me First.

About Energy ball,Ice beam and Thunderbolt a pure utility pokemon should never be able to have a set which can revenge kill the Dragons, Swampert, Gyarados and possible Heatran. Even if this set would not get used it shouldn't even be an option.
 
About Energy ball,Ice beam and Thunderbolt a pure utility pokemon should never be able to have a set which can revenge kill the Dragons, Swampert, Gyarados and possible Heatran. Even if this set would not get used it shouldn't even be an option.
I disagree. The whole reason it's got 105 speed was to out pace chomp.
 
No, they will be used. One of them will be on every set.

Flamethrower takes out two otherwise solid counters, Skarmory and Bronzong.

Gravity and Earth Power does the same thing. And this will be using Gravity a lot.

Thunderbolt takes out two otherwise solid counters, Skarmory and Gyarados, and also prevents bulky waters not named Swampert, Quagsire, Whiscash, or Gastrodon from switching in effectively.

Most Water-types have 95+ SDef (Starmie excluded). Gyarados is the only one it has a significant effect on (and why would Gyarados switch into something that can either Encore it or potentially Counter it?).

Ice Beam takes out three otherwise solid counters, Gliscor, Salamence, and Garchomp.

We already covered Garchomp. Gliscor, I'll give you. But Salamence won't like taking Sludge Bomb anyways.

Also, 90 SA isn't "low" It's average/mediocre, but that doesn't matter much if you can predict a switchin. As a matther of fact, I''m willing to bet Sludge Bomb(or Sludge Volley) + a beam can KO every nullified I mentioned above except the Water/Grounds and the Steels.

It's low in terms of sweeping Power, which is what I have already shown.

Gothic Togekiss provided some good numbers for why Energy Ball isn't overpowered.

In order to illustrate my points, I will use Metalkid's calculator with these adjustments:

The Base Power I use will be the sum of Sludge Bomb and the elemental beam's combined power, dealing Normal type damage. I'll use Politoed for the calcs.

0/0 Garchomp:

Sludge Bomb (67.5) + Ice Beam (380) = 447.5.

Damage: 94-111%.

Remember, this is with 0 SA EVs. Kick in 60 SA EVs and its a guarenteed KO combo. Garchomp is the bulkiest of the three, and Mence is nuetral on Sludge Bomb. In short: because of Ice Beam, these pokemon cannot switch in safely.

Why is a Garchomp check bad? And, it can already Counter/Encore mindgame Garchomp, making it a risky switch in anyways.

216/0 BulkyGyara

Slude Bomb (135) + Thunderbolt (380) = 515

Damage: 88-103%

This has a chance to take out BulkyGyara with 0 EVs, albeit a low chance. Once again though, just pump SA a little, and you'll get better results. 60 SA shifts this to 94-110%, a reliable KO combo, 120 SA EVs makes it a guarenteed KO combo. Either of Expelt Belt or Life Orb would also make up the difference at 0 EVs.

Expert Belt and Life Orb will never be on this because Lefties is more useful. I actually don't care so much for Thunderbolt because of this.

Stealth Rock down makes 0 EVs a 2HKO on either Chomp or Gyara with the respective move.
I can see why Thunderbolt shouldn't be on. You really haven't convinced me on anything else. Skarmory and other Steel-types don't want to take Gravity'd Earth Powers. I really don't see why this stopping Garchomp from switching in is so bad. It's not like they counter each other anyways.
 

X-Act

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Yeah, I know that the problem is how to implement continuing dealing damage to the replacement Pokemon after fainting a Pokemon.

This Pokemon is also a support Pokemon. With that in mind, here is the replacement to OctoSludge:

Attack Name: BlindingMire (or whatever you want to call it)
Type: Poison
Category: Special
Power Points: 5
Base Power: 50
Accuracy: 90
Battle Effect: Shoots sludge in the foe's eyes, temporarily blinding it, making it flee to end the battle (switches the opponent Pokemon in a trainer battle).
Priority: -6

Basically a Roar/Whirlwind that does damage before phazing.

I think this move keeps with the utility theme as well as being an attacking move. I kept PP to a minimum as I'm aware of the implications that such a move would invoke. Also I made BP be not so high, otherwise it would be broken, but not that low either. Being a Poison-type move makes it not very effective against at least half of a typical team anyway (remember: Steel, Ground, Rock, Poison, and Ghost types resist it). But maybe the Base Power should be modified? I made it not 100% accurate as it might miss hitting the foe's eyes (lol). And, of course, if you have a better name, feel free to make suggestions.

EDIT: Added priority. Maybe having low priority does not make it that broken, and Base Power can be improved?
 
Most Water-types have 95+ SDef (Starmie excluded). Gyarados is the only one it has a significant effect on (and why would Gyarados switch into something that can either Encore it or potentially Counter it?).
It can't encore Gyarados if it gets taunted first... just checked and Counter does, but it's risky if Gyarados can safely DD up without risk of being encored.

We should probably rethink the definition of counter for something utility- and encore-centric. Even if it can switch in safely, what can Skarmory actually do to stop Spider-mon from spiking, spinning, wishing, etc.?
 

DougJustDoug

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@X-Act
I could see a poison move being used to force a pokemon from battle. I envision it more like police using tear gas to clear a room. I don't see this pokemon using poison-gas type moves, but I'm sure there is a move explanation that could work with our handyman spider.

The move priority would probably need to be altered to go last, like other phazing moves. The ability to do damage and force a pokemon out of play, all backed by 105 speed, is pretty scary.

But the basic premise of this move is interesting. It does damage and has a very powerful move effect. That could make a poison attack viable. Any Steel type will be immune to the move. That makes this phazing move less powerful than the other phazing moves (not considering the damage-dealing capability). You could make Poison types immune to the phazing effect, since it's doubtful a poison type would run from poison. Poison types already resist the damage dealing-component.

I like the general idea of trying to make a legitimate OU poison move. This pokemon is a prime opportunity to do it. However, new moves make the game less accessible to regular metagame players. That concern is always in the back of my mind when we make anything new, other than the pokemon themselves.
 

X-Act

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Yes, I edited in priority. Good catch.

My concept was for our Pokemon to shoot liquid sludge in the foe's eyes, making it flee. Maybe a better concept (and, hence, a better battle name) is required. But I'll leave that up to the imagination of the community if you deem that my explanation is not possible. That's if the community wants this move in the first place.
 
When I think of being blinded by a substance, I think ink (blame it on Mario Kart), so maybe Ink Blotch or Ink Squirt for a name for the attack?
 
I think the move is perfectly feasible. In fact, it reminds me of that scene in the Jurassic Park movie where that dinosaur (forget what it's called), spits in Nedry's eyes, blinds him, and proceeds to gorge itself on the computer geek's excessive flesh... But I digress. I think a better name for the move would be Acid Spit, but that seems a bit redundant, seeing as we already have the move Acid.

What about BlindingSpit, Acid Blind, or just Blind?

Also, I have a move suggestion, though I like X-Act's better.

Attack Name: Tranquilize/Stun Toxin
Type: Poison
Category: Physical/Special undecided... see below.
Power Points: 15
Base Power: 55
Accuracy: 85
Battle Effect: Either Injects the opponent with a toxin that may paralyze it, or Douses the opponent with sludge that may paralyze it.
Effect Percentage: 30-40%

I guess to decide whether it was physical or special, we'd have to decide how exactly it happens... also, the injection side of it wouldn't really fit flavorwise, especially when you take into account the fact that in real life (I know, this is Pokemon), a DLL's fangs are too small to inject a human with its poison, even though said poison would be deadly if injected. I don't think the move is broken, even with the high paralysis percentage, because of its low power and accuracy, though I guess that's up to everyone else to decide, really.
 

tennisace

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OK, who cares if he gets Ice Beam and Energy Ball and all that stuff? Ambipom gets them, but do we use those moves on him? Usually not. Same applies here. So we give him Ice Beam. Are you really going to use Ice Beam on this thing in a supporter moveset? The only moves I see being used are Earthquake/Earth power, Gunk Shot/Sludge Bomb, and rapid spin/Knock Off. All those are givens anyway. Its not that big of a deal.
Actually, My main moveset would look something like Ground/Ice/Support/Support. So, yes, it would be used. How can you justify them on something like this anyway?

Also, X-Act, I'm not sure I like the fact that it does damage. Maybe just make it a Whirlwind clone?

Doug finally got around to changing his custom title =P

Edit: What about a Vacuum Wave clone?
 

X-Act

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A Whirlwind clone would be totally boring and useless.

Dealing damage + Whirlwind effect would be much better. Firstly, it's a totally new move, not just a clone of another move, which makes it more original.

Secondly, it makes for a viable Poison attack. This would be a Poison attack that's worth considering using, unlike practically all other damage dealing Poison moves. Remember this is a Poison-type attack... it will hit for not very effective or for no damage at all most of the time. Steel types would be immune to the Whirlwind effect too, and I'd actually agree with Doug to make it so that Poison types also being immune to the effect (kinda like the fact that Poison types are immune to being poisoned).

Thirdly, having a Whirlwind effect means that it goes second, so it's not that broken.
 
Wouldn't that new attack Whirlwind effect kick in even if it hit's a Steel Type? I mean you're shooting ink/sludge into Steelix/Skarmory's in their eyes. Regardless of typing, the fact you blinded someone and causing them to run in terror still means that the WW effect kicks off againest them.

Code:
Skarmory: Ha...what are you going to do to me? Throw sludge at me. *laughing*
DLL: You know what, I think I will *grab a lump of sludge just as Skarmory wasn't looking*
Skarmory: Huh? *confused now*
*Just as Skarm thnk he got crazy an lump of sludge hit his in the face, mostly in the eyes.*
Skarmory: Ahhhh....I'm Blind....and it actually burns too!!!!!!!!!!!!! DX
 
Wouldn't that new attack Whirlwind effect kick in even if it hit's a Steel Type? I mean you're shooting ink/sludge into Steelix/Skarmory's in their eyes. Regardless of typing, the fact you blinded someone and causing them to run in terror still means that the WW effect kicks off againest them.
It definitely seems that way, but if that logic was applied to the rest of the game, we would never have Pokemon like Dusknoir blocking Rapid Spin, though it would seem that the effect of the spinning should still take place, regardless of whether or not the attack actually deals damage (lol... Rapid Spin dealing damage).
 
I'm not sure if I quite like the new move's effect, but either way I'd rename it to "Muk Shot" or something else with "Shot" ( read: not Gunk ). Pokémon moves tend not to actually give away any effects ( ie. "blinding ) in their names.

Ice Beam discussion: This is the only beam I think would really deserve merit for existence. It will still only 2HKO Chomp most of the time because of Yache, and Mr. Spider will take massive damage in the process, but I know we all want to abuse Chomp because he's stupid. I'm passive about this.
 
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