AAA Almost Any Ability

[Gambit_Gamin]

I feel as there's been a lot of talk surrounding Chien-Pao, some saying its overpowered and needs action while others are saying that it deserves a place in this meta and is not overpowered. Here is my thought on the situation.

Chien-Pao, in my opinion, is broken, but also not broken

Chien-Pao is broken in multiple ways. The main way being Icicle Crash. A lot of people have been saying that the only reason that Chien-Pao is broken is due to Icicle Crash, since it ignores Fluffy and because flinch sucks. The thing is, most physical moves are contact, but there are a select few that don't make contact and that are actually used, which would be Earthquake, Stone Edge, Icicle Crash, Poltergeist, Psycho Cut and Gunk Shot. Here's the thing though, Corviknight is definitely the most used Fluffy mon and it's already immune to EQ and Gunk Shot, as well as resists Psycho Cut. Stone Edge is really only used by Roaring Moon, which doesn't even use it on all sets, and Poltergeist is used by Ceruledge but Ceruledge is a bit less common. That leaves us with Icicle Crash. While it still does only 33% on average without having used Swords Dance, Brave Bird isn't even a guaranteed 2HKO, which allows Chien-Pao to Swords Dance, and then just spam Icicle Crash, and even if you look as if your gonna 2HKO based on the first roll, you still have to put into account that you could get flinched, and then possibly swept. You could also use Intimidate, but then you got to worry about Lash Out, and when Corv attempts to Roost off the damage, Chien-Pao can just Swords Dance, and that brings it back to the Icicle Crash shenanigans. This is why Chien-Pao is broken. However, Chien-Pao is also not broken for a multitude of reasons. First off, Icicle Crash can miss and I think most everyone knows how big of a deal a 10% miss is. Secondly, Chien-Pao suffers from "Four Move Slot Syndrome". You need Icicle Crash for Fluffy mons, you need Swords Dance to beat Corv, you need Lash Out for Intimidate, you need Sacred Sword for opposing Chien-Pao and Heatran, and you need Ice Shard for Scarf Roaring Moon. Third, it gets revenge killed fast attackers such as Barraskewda and Scarf Azelf. Lastly, you don't need Corv to counter Chien-Pao. There are other notable mons that can counter Chien-Pao, such as Quaquaval, Skarmory, and Iron Hands, which all have access to fighting type moves to beat Chien-Pao.

Should there by any action?

I'm gonna say no. I think that there is counterplay to Chien-Pao that we haven't "discovered" (can't exactly find the right wording). You could make a point that Chien-Pao requires specific counterplay, which isn't healthy for a metagame, but I think that the situation isn't quite out of hand yet. I could go on... but I don't feel like it.

 

[aiko's band]

Mew is actually kinda underrated (cope)
is totally a real pokemon and is totally not outclassed by . Anyways, here's the one set it can actually run that can't replicate. It's the RegenVest set.

RegenVest Mew

Mew @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- U-turn / Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Super Fang / Scald / Dragon Tail
- Future Sight / Night Shade / Scald / Dragon Tail

The name of the game for is pure utility. While yes, & can both Knock , they both struggle to leave a (relatively speaking) "meaningful" impact besides a stray Scald burn from . Mew can also Knock and Scald , but it can also just Super Fang it to immediately put in the "danger zone" for partners like , , and what not. Also did I mention this guy gets Future Sight? Future Sight plus & puts immense pressure onto either or . Did I also forgot to mention that this mon is one of the better checks to ? It eats all of it's moves, even while Knocked. Yes, can also run Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball, but like no one actually runs that waste of a move slot.

Enough of the glazing, lets get to the reason why this mon is "underrated".


gets eaten up by ghosts like , , and similarly doesn't like dark types like &
It's also weak to the most common pivoting move, U-Turn. Even weak U-Turns from the likes of or sting it.

TLDR; ITS A COOL REGENVESTER AND ITS PSYCHIC TYPING IS KINDA ASS​

 

[matte]

PSA: Make you Chien-Pao Adamant!

Chien-Pao is one of the most threatening attackers in the SV AAA tier. With its massive attack stat being boosted by and SOR, it can destroy teams that are not prepared for it. However, Chien-Pao does have weaknesses, like not being able to switch into Stealth Rocks many times or being outsped by common scafers like Azelf and Roaring Moon. With the reintroduced Zamazenta who naturally outspeeds Chien-Pao, there is not much of a reason to run Jolly Chien-Pao anymore, when the common attackers of the tier will already outspeed you. Adamant gives you a significant power boost, being able to 2HKO Fluffy Corviknight and a 76.2% chance to 2HKO Corviknight. Ice Shard's power is boosted as well, letting you clean the lategame with Chien-Pao much easier. The only downside to being Adamant is that you are slower than the 370 tier, which means that you are outsped by things like Cinderace and Meowscarada.

Standard Adamant Spread, nothing special. You hit a speed stat of 369.

Below are some significant calcs with Adamant Banded SOR Pao:

Relevant Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 201-237 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 135-159 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 313-369 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 312-368 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 270-320 (76.9 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 360-426 (102.5 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 386-456 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 326-384 (101.5 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant Chien-Pao strugges with certain things though, but as long as its played well you should be good. Becuase Chien-Pao is choice locked, it can sometimes be hard to predict consistently. Be patient, and position well to get the most out of Pao. Try conditioning them by going for a certain option then switching it up.

Intimidate Corviknight is a common roadblock, but can be weakened pretty easily. You can use a mon with Knock-Off that invites Corviknight like Empoleon, which Corviknight thinks they can just Defog the Stealth Rocks away or Body Press, but you can click Knock removing its Lefties which makes Corviknight more prone to chip. Then get Rocks up and overload the Corviknight by baiting it in, then have it take Rock chip until you can 2HKO it. A more risky option is to Icicle Crash twice (one on the switch and U-turn) which lets you 2HKO Corviknight the next time it comes in. Similar roadblocks like an Empoleon or Heatran which can make prediction difficult to get right, but you can weaken them with your teammates.

Another problem pokemon is Manaphy. Its very commonly Physdef, so it can eat Icicle Crash very well, and you will have to go for Crunch for the 2HKO. However, its very commonly paired with Fluffy Corviknight, which takes minimal damage from Crunch. As long as they keep Manaphy healthy they can eat one Crunch the just switch into Corviknight. You are not breaking these two with just Pao. You need a good partner like Desolate Land Iron Moth, SFLO Deoxys-Speed and Primordial Sea Zapdos. They pressure Manaphy alot, with big damage or poison (Iron-Moth) and also matchup well vs Corviknight. Ofc there are other good Pao partners, I'm just listing some as an example.

Good Pao Partners

Iron Moth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam / Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
- Morning Sun


Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt


Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Weather Ball / Hurricane
- Roost
- U-turn

Chien-Pao does have things that threaten it offensively, which outspeed and threaten to kill it. Things like Zamazenta, Zapdos-Galar and Roaring-Moon are all common things that threaten Pao offensively but they can be checked by things like Fluffy and can also be finished off by Chien-Pao's Ice Shard if chipped. Make sure to support your Pao with proper hazard removal and teammates so it can pivot in and out without being impeded.

IMO, Pao fits best on pivot spam. Its a crazy strong breaker than punishes the passive mons of the tier which come out constantly versus your threatening teammates or to remove hazards/take a hit. You can take these out of position teams and rip them apart with Pao, as it gets 2HKO or OHKO's on alot of the meta.

In conclusion, make Pao Adamant and don't run Jolly Pao vs me please! ​

 

[GlalieGoesBoom]

FREE LUGIA
Pros: Very bulky with good defensive stats
Cons:
Weak to rocks so it's forced into either magic guard or boots, both of which hinder its walling capabilities.
Magic guard doesn't really do anything for it besides it's rocks weakness, and running boots mean it's scared of knock from the regenvests ,, and stuff it wants to come in on like
Weak to much of the common offensive types, most notably both of 's stabs, along with , , and
Extremely passive, lacking even basic utility in knock and rocks. Even though it does have a diverse movepool, all of it is coming off a 90 Spatk, meaning that it just gets pivoted on
Calm mind sets are just a poor imitation of , except for the fact that it gets neither stored power or fairy moves to pressure dark types
Bulky sets have to compete with , as it's not rocks weak and can actually do stuff like knock, set spikes, and teleport.
The one set I could see being semi viable is future sight, but it doesn't get that many chances to come in and click it.
tldr; Lugia is just a fat wall that doesn't do anything
​

 

[Gimmicky]

WHY ARE WE FORMATTING ALL OUR POSTS LIKE THIS
​

Anyway, here's some scattered thoughts on some stuff, as well as my 50 cents on futher unbans and the precedent we're setting with Zamazenta-Hero.


Zama is really awesome. I was pretty vocally against freeing it at first, but the more games I spectate or play with it, the better it seems to fit in. This thing just fits so perfectly onto offense without feeling like it's forcing a hand in the builder. Best set IMO is SoR/Tough Claws IDBP, with CB SoR and Fluffy setup close behind. Really, really hope this stays, it makes offense feel refreshing to play in a way it usually doesn't, while also slotting excellently onto many good HO, BO and even balance teams. If I bother to get reqs, I'm 100% voting unban, and I definitely see myself putting it quite high on the eventual VR update. I do see a potential argument for unbanning it, particularly the exploitable nature of Fluffy birds, but I don't find that to be too much of a problem with clever building and good play. Amazing addition to the tier


I think I need to stop saying not to free things, because Iron Hands has also settled into the tier so very nicely. This guy does everything, from sweeping to being a fat unbreakable wall to wallbreaking to potentially multiple of these roles at once, but it's almost never felt overbearing. Physdef Regen is a set unlike anything else, it just does so much, to the point of making something like Regen Kommo-o basically obsolete. Surge Surfer is bordering on a gimmick set but I'm all about that, pairing this with something like Latios is not only incredibly fun to play but, personally, I find it quite fun to play against as well. Incredibly good mon, very happy to have it here.


I've never really wanted this to be banned, I rarely found it overbearing in the builder or in play, but the longer this is in the tier, the more borderline unhealthy it becomes. The main culprit, of course, is Icicle Crash flinches being incredibly oppressive and completely thwarting common counterplay with some luck. Obviously, Pokemon is a luck management game, so you could argue that this is completely fine and I'd be willing to hear you out, but personally, I find it incredibly unhealthy when a Pokemon like Chien-Pao can completely circumvent most answers by... getting a 30% chance. This is in part due to Zamazenta-H making Fluffy Corviknight and Skarmory, who are more susceptible to Icicle Crash cheese more common, but this has been an issue with Chien-Pao for a long while. I'd like to see this banned, not because it's too powerful or too fast, but because it's unhealthy for something like this to just... have odds uncomfortably close to a coinflip to beat the most common checks.


Freeing box legendaries just because Zamazenta-H has proven not to be broken should not be our first priority right now. I do believe Lugia would be fine, maybe even below average, but I'd much rather see action taken on Chien-Pao first. Lugia itself would be fine. I'm not itching to bring a fat 106/130/154 bulk Flying-type into the tier, but I have little reason to assume it'd be broken. Glalie's post outlines my thoughts on Lugia pretty well, though I do think Calm Mind would be a perfectly valid and threatening set due to Lugia's sheer bulk and coverage. Honestly, the versatility Lugia could theoretically provide is pretty crazy, that movepool is surprisingly deep with some potentially really fun stuff such as Dragon Tail/Whirlwind, TrickScarf, Dual Screens, and even gimmicky stuff such as Imprison and Psych Up. This is worth a suspect test eventually, but I'm not clamoring for it.


This is fine when it isn't working together with Keldeo. In fact, I'd argue Iron Bundle would not only fit in, but it wouldn't even be that good. Sure, if you count the walls, it looks pretty broken, but there's more to a breaker than just the walls. Iron Bundle is extremely predictable, extremely hard to get onto the field, and.. it isn't even that strong. It's STAB moves are either unreliable or low BP, it has no way of boosting its damage output outside of Primordial Sea or some other boosting ability, and it just falters in the face of repeated pressure or Water-resists. Choice Specs is the best set, and it's completely walled by most Desolate Land users and soft checked by basically any Water resist, everything from Scarf Latios to RegenVest Primarina can take advantage of Hydro Pump, while Freeze Dry is an incredibly underwhelming move and Ice Beam is walled by common defensive pieces from Gholdengo to Empoleon. Iron Bundle deserves another chance down the road, but much like Lugia, it's important to note that freeing Iron Bundle is far from a priority right now. Instead of adding more watchlist-worthy stuff, our priority should be fixing the metagame we have right now.

I fear with the successful Zamazenta-H suspect, the next few months are going to be met with more and more calls to unban stuff-- from the justifiable such as Ice Scales and Noivern to the questionable such as Sneasler and Magearna, and everything in between, but I think this is the incorrect approach to tiering. Testing stuff down is one thing, but the future path of the metagame should not be defined by how much we can get away with unbanning. Rather, the goal should be to make the most competitive metagame we have with what is already at our disposal. Testing banlist Pokemon should primarily happen under two circumstances. One is where the ban is dated back to a version of the metagame that no longer exists, and the Pokemon deserves its due process in the current metagame; think Zamazenta or perhaps Noivern, which were both banned because they were broken in a metagame that functionally doesn't exist anymore. The other scenario is if we think we need (or at least that the tier would be better with) something that's currently on the banlist. This is where the Ice Scales discussion falls, but that's not a discussion I intend to re-open in this post. Either way, we could absolutely get away with unbanning things that fall into neither of those categories, such as Lugia and Giratina, but they should not be our priority.

tl;dr, ban Chien-Pao, fighting types are awesome, unbanning stuff is cool but we shouldn't build the future of the metagame around testing additional stuff in.

 

[TDLoriat]

I feel that a potential wave of unbans should be avoided to prevent the endangered species of the meta from getting outcompeted by generalists stealing their niche. I do think that mons that were banned before dlc 2 should be at least given some thought before any suspects downwards. But ban I hate that I lose 70% of the time with him

 

[LordBox]

This is fine when it isn't working together with Keldeo. In fact, I'd argue Iron Bundle would not only fit in, but it wouldn't even be that good. Sure, if you count the walls, it looks pretty broken, but there's more to a breaker than just the walls. Iron Bundle is extremely predictable, extremely hard to get onto the field, and.. it isn't even that strong. It's STAB moves are either unreliable or low BP, it has no way of boosting its damage output outside of Primordial Sea or some other boosting ability, and it just falters in the face of repeated pressure or Water-resists. Choice Specs is the best set, and it's completely walled by most Desolate Land users and soft checked by basically any Water resist, everything from Scarf Latios to RegenVest Primarina can take advantage of Hydro Pump, while Freeze Dry is an incredibly underwhelming move and Ice Beam is walled by common defensive pieces from Gholdengo to Empoleon. Iron Bundle deserves another chance down the road, but much like Lugia, it's important to note that freeing Iron Bundle is far from a priority right now. Instead of adding more watchlist-worthy stuff, our priority should be fixing the metagame we have right now.

To say Iron Bundle wouldn't be that good is pretty criminal and my experience with Iron Bundle when it was free was as one of the best and most consistent breaker and pivot in tier.

Its power is a bit unrepresented here, Specs Hydro Pump with Adapt or PSea is still very strong and teams with no immunities or extremely fat resists will be playing a difficult game. You mention "any" Water resists as soft-checks but in reality anything that isn't very fat will falter in practice. Scarf Latios is really an emergency "fuck I have no switch-ins" more than anything worth mentioning as a notable defensive check, taking 50-60 from Specs Adapt Hydro Pump and being instantly OHKO'd by Ice STAB and being exploitable itself for free momentum. Other Water-types still have be scared by Specs Adapt Freeze-Dry, with only very fat Water-type RegenVests being able to scout decently if they're in good shape. Specs Adapt IBeam/Freeze-Dry are also quite strong, arguably being your best moves over your Water STAB. Gholdengo is not a good check to these moves even with IBeam doing upwards of 48 to max HP Gholdengo (ignoring Hydro Pump) and Freeze-Dry smacking for nearly 50. Even "walls" like Iron Moth still have to be extremely wary of it or max SpD, because I cannot tell you the amount of games I won because the opponent made the very poor decision of using a normal Iron Moth set as their Iron Bundle check (I did 7% chip because it has no Lefties and it crumples to 2 IBeams). Its moves are strong enough and are fairly spammable without 2 overlapping checks which are rare.

It's an extremely linear mon, but at the same time so are breakers like Zapdos-Galar and Walking Wake and even other banned ones like Noiver, I don't see an issue with it being linear with its exceptional properties. Extremely hard to get onto the field is a large exaggeration, sure it cannot hard switch-in often, but a lot of our breakers (Ghosts, Latios, Azelf) can't otherwise and rely on abundant pivot which Bundle exploits just as well. Its exceptional speed lets it more often take advantage of pivot even more by outpacing and exploiting every non-Scarf mon in the tier bar Zamazenta-Hero. This part really exemplifies Bundle's strength, because frankly it was easy for me to get in even against more offensive teams with its fantastic speed tier and hell it even has the bulk to fairly comfortably eat something like DNite Espeed. And because it can do so, even though it has checks that can take some decent hits in a vacuum or scout it pretty well with another check, it can continue to come in and just beat down your opponent to an alarmingly consistent degree. SR is an annoyance but hazard removal is a must on most teams and Bundle can still come in when it sees the opportunity.

Its last great weapon was U-turn. This move alone makes Bundle an exceedingly consistent mon, its power and speed lets it commonly come in on and threaten out annoying physical walls and offensive breakers to beat down and break through and even if you can't immediately? Just pivot out, something you'll almost be guaranteed to do with success unless your opponent is backed into a dangerous and aggressive position given its power and also extremely linear counterplay. It pairs up with other even Scarfed special breakers monstrously well, as many of its checks usually are immunities which can get threatened out or fat RegenVests that can be Knocked and crumple quickly. That's a real nice Heatran, would be a shame if I had a Scarf PrimSea Wake in the back. Cool Goodra-H, oh wait, its Vest is gone because Azelf pressured it in and now IBeam nearly 2HKOs.

All of this combined was why my Bundle teams remained exceedingly consistent and were the main teams I spammed on the road to 5 alts in the top 10 on ladder. Yes Keldeo was around, yes it was annoying but people still run abundant amounts of Bundle counterplay. I saw many Desolate Land Iron Moths, Heatrans, RegenVest Goodra-Hs and even Storm Drain Gholdengo and the team still managed to perform exceptionally consistently.

Of course, this is not in a vacuum, in a vacuum Bundle is probably fine. But it takes opportunity of support extremely well and remained a very strong breaker in face of increased counterplay forced by its presence. Does it mean it's broken necessarily? No, many other breakers are very strong particularly with added support, but Iron Bundle already dictates annoying pressure and choices within the teambuilder and in spite of it still remains more than strong, consistent and annoying to deal with its great speed and power and is certainly not a mon that should be underestimated. So, is it really worth it?

 

[UT]

Hello I am washed but I want to talk about the most broken mon you are not using, SpD Spikes Chomp.


Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower / Stone Edge

The premise is extremely simple: all of our RegenVests survive by the skin of their teeth and all of our offensive guys are broken if you give them a million switch ins, and Spikes solves both of those problems at once. Flamethrower is really nice to speed up the Chomp Spikes vs Corv Defog wars, but Edge is still useful against Zapdos and Mandibuzz. The Fire resist and Electric immunity is huge, and it doesn't drop to the random Grass coverage everyone is running for Pert and to a lesser degree Tusk / Mana.

Non-AV Garchomp is definitely too frail to be a solo SpD wall, but I have been enjoying pairing it with Empoleon of all things; provides pivoting, Knock support, Rocks, and can tailor its ability slot to beat what your team needs beat (I've been liking Bulletproof, but Volt Absorb is also big). A spin blocker like Earth Eater Gholdengo is nice to block Tusk, but not mandetory.

Couple of replays, couple of teams:
with replay
with replay

Also, I want to briefly touch on Zamazenta; I am a little worried about its healthiness in the metagame. We're all familiar with what Sword of Ruin Choice Band Fighting-types can do, but Zamazenta's Speed tier and excellent bulk for a wallbreaker are something else. Sure it lacks a secondary STAB move and is hard walled by Fluffy, but because of its raw power and great Speed tier, it's not hard to predict when its softer checks are coming in and make a read. Teams without a hard wall are very hard pressed to handle it, even Intimidate Corviknight is 50/50 to survive after Rocks, and it is hard to revenge kill:

252 SpA Walking Wake Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Heavy Rain: 213-252 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Anyways, meta is fun, use more Garchomp, think about Zamazenta a little more (free Lugia next).

 

[Betticus IV]

Since Isaiah already knocked me out I wanted to share the teams I used, as well as give some of my thoughts ab the games as anytime I try to explain anything showdown related to my family/friends I get a funny look.



Although p standard, I wanted to touch on the moth, tusk, and lando t core, as these are what are setting up/keeping off hazards.


Tspikes have been indirectly buffed pretty recently and are something that are rlly good in the current meta. This is in part due to mg gouging not being everywhere, which invalidated tspikes heavy as well as took up the fire slot on a team (moth is prob the best setter). Hazard removers are also not rlly running wbb anymore besides mandi, but that isn't too common (tusk also helps deal with this mon immensely). Common absorbers don't even rlly like coming in on moth besides other moth, as most pecha gets 2HKO by flame and can't outrun it, non-corrosion pex literally can't touch moth, and clod has an insanely high chance to get 3HKO'd. Moth is just rlly good rn and this is apparent by its uptick in usage, and it even has the added benefit of being great into the devious stall team.


I had experimented w it a while ago but got reinvigorated by cumps sus team and this is what I landed on. I just reused the spread from my sample team, but actually fixed it so the defense is higher (the 252/244/12+ spread looked cooler in builder my fault). MG makes getting hazards off way easier, and makes me much less weary of a knock if it were to happen. I swapped helmet for lefties just bc I am a huge fan of longevity over chip damage, especially when I have a helmet corv on the team already. Just a great utility mon in general. Honestly in g1 I should've taunted the hands before I went for eq/spin, but I just panicked and wanted to get rid of the sub, and I rashly thought it was p-salt cuz it didn't take tspike but took rocks, but I should've thought a bit better. I think this is what cost me the game the most in the long run. So learn from my mistakes, if there is a sub hands in front of you, just go for taunt, there is literally no drawback to doing this w this tusk set.


I don't rlly think that a WBB mon needs to invest in defense to be successful, and lando has enough natural phys bulk that it works out p well. With nearly max spdef lando is able to survive a lot of random stray special attacks and take on what manaphy doesn't like. What really helped me decide on lando was it having a great mu into opposing moth, which is the only relevant poison type that my moth really struggles with. Obviously it's not perfect but it has surprisingly good longevity, and even though it can't touch flyings just having taunt it's able to shut down so much and can annoy the birds that want to come in on it. Honestly this set does not feel optimized and I have been thinking of running helmet or other moves but idk, lefties felt necessary for longevity and all the moves felt like they had a place but maybe just got to experiment a bit more.

Double taunt is a bit greedy but it came in handy quite a bit during testing: corv would come in on one, see that it had taunt, dip, and then try and remove on the other, only to find out it can't. This basically made hazards guaranteed unless the opponent is using a tusk, but it never felt like a huge struggle to put them back up (as you rlly only need 1-2 turns, which is way less than regular hazard stack) and opposing tusk did not like taking tspike + rocky helmet from corv. Double taunt allows you to deny hazard setup pretty consistently as well, and paired with tusk you are able to keep off the few that were set up. This aspect was important during my game against Isaiah, as he had brought hazard stack and I was able to deny him hazards pretty regularly.

This team is p weak to chien, I was fairly confident Isaiah wouldn't bring it, idk y but I just felt it, and that luckily worked out for me, but it did present some issues when testing. Corv and Mana are the only defensive answer to it, w zelf being the only revenger is a bit rough but most of the time ur able to make it work even if u get the reads wrong. It is also weak to no guard zap, lando can really only take one hurricane on switch and one has to u-turn after so that + confusion chance doesn't rlly make the team adequately prepared for it, but again I had a feeling that Isaiah wouldn't bring it.

g2 I brought a balance team that I think was too much of a comfort pick for me, and was actually the main reason I had built the above team, as this one had a glaring fire weakness + corv/pert, which were featured heavily in my ladder portion team dump and I didn't want to get punished heavily for bringing those. Although fires don't make the game a lost cause, Isaiah made a rlly great callout on me u-turning with moon on the ledge, which I think is the point at which the game became an uphill battle for me, culminating in him taking the game. I like the team and think it is the most balance of balance teams, despite its p big fire weakness. I also thought it was funny to see everyone's reaction to me bringing tspike twice after the match was done since he had cteamed tspike so heavily the first game.

Here is the team:

(GlalieGoesBoom matte) here is the full team no need to piece together anymore

ggs Isaiah, it was super fun to participate in the tour and was a great learning experience about tourneys in general, even if I did get out r1. Isaiah definitely outprepped me and was also just playing better, so he was rewarded with the deserved win, but again I'll take this as more of a learning experience as I rlly had no clue what to expect from team building for tourney compared to ladder. Biggest takeaway for me is learning how to team prep and scout my opponent better. This has just got me more amped for future tourneys so can't wait for those. Gl to everyone else and I can't wait to see the outcome!

 

[cosmogii]

hey all! i'm a pretty garbage team builder/player with this meta, but i still adore aaa. one of the first metagames i picked up and found i genuinely enjoyed, cause of how cool a lot of the teambuilding options are. recently made a team that i've been using to pretty meh results, (mainly because i'm hot garbage at playing) but i still found it very very fun to use. i figured i would post it here nonetheless, since i did spend a long time making and refining it.

now enough rambling, the team is here:

goobers

Booger :) (Swampert) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- High Horsepower
- Flip Turn
- Knock Off
- Smack Down
very, VERY standard set. i use smack down so i can get corv to be weak to high horsepower (you'll see why its hh and not eq soon) and get chipped later down the line. everybody and their mother knows what pert does, he soaks up special hits and regens off the damage. very good mon.



Purrformer (Meowscarada) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough/Triple Axel/Spikes/Toxic Spikes

one of my favorite sets to run is scarf meowscarada. you may be somewhat confused why i'm not running something like boots, or band for that extra longevity/oomph for my damage output, and the answer is pretty simple! nobody expects it. nobody expects their scarf roaring moon for instance to be u-turned on or hit with a play rough for an ohko.
this thing is a revenge killing MACHINE, helping with faster fighting types like zamazenta after chip, roaring moon, and a few other select flying types that aren't named corviknight. if you want to switch out a team member to deal with the fighting/dark types of the tier, there's tons of good options to replace play rough. the hazards are good for momentum even in unfavorable matchups, and triple axel does even more damage to those dragons/flying types,at the cost of making you a little bit more susceptible to chien-pao.
grassy surge as the ability gives even more passive recovery to mons like swampert, and boosts electrodes chloroblast to VERY high numbers. speaking of..


D:< (Electrode-Hisui) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chloroblast
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt

orb. this entire set is just life orb. electrode-h is a fantastic pivot, using a really unique type coverage to slam a bunch of threats and giving us more momentum in conjunction with pert/meow. taunt is there mostly as filler, but i've found it does help against quite a few cheeky setup mons that don't care about either of its stabs too much. ie hearthflame, gouging fire before it got banned, and occasionally latios. chloroblast gets powered to insane levels under terrain, making it a very unsafe mon to switch into even with its mediocre 80 special attack stat.


Arthur (Corviknight) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy/Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird/U-Turn
- Body Press
- Roost
just bulky corv. i have nothing more to input. swap intimidate out for fluffy and vice versa according to what you want, i personally view it as more preference than anything. brave bird is there because of how many zamas you see running around, and it does a good chunk to them, but you should really just use u-turn if zama gets banned.


Chrome (Iron Moth) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Toxic Spikes
- U-turn
- Morning Sun
just a slapped on set once more, but wildly effective. tspikes gives terrakion that extra oomph to his damage, and it greatly helps chip down a lot of his checks, ala bulky grounds not wearing boots. plus it gives the team a much needed water immunity with desolate land.


Pointy (Terrakion) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower/Upper Hand.
and now, my personal favorite sweeper. he's a physical mon with stab that can actually deal with fluffy corv!!! stone edge does a really respectable amount to the bloody thing.
252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 199-234 (49.7 - 58.5%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and this is without a boost. with a swords dance up, its an 87% chance to straight ohko the thing. against intimidate corv though..
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 157-187 (39.2 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
yeah, don't go willy nilly if you know the thing has intimidate. smart switches against that will help you out immensely. Upper hand is there for revenge killing attempts like chien-pao trying to ice shard you at low hp, aqua jets, extreme speeds etc etc.

that was long winded. there are a few threats to this team, namely priority abusers. Especially these two:

cringe

this stupid overgrown scrat from ice age imposter is a serious issue. priority ice shards HURT, and there isn't too much that can resist it. Intimidate corv helps with the match-up, along with upper hand from terrakion. But almost nothing can switch into it safely, so your best bet is to hide your scarf on meow and revenge kill it with play rough after it uses a move besides ice shard, like icicle crash. Other than that.. yeah, i got nothing.


Once again, more priority that really messes with us. Aerilate extreme speeds are so good against practically 5/6 of the team. intimidate corv is your backbone here, but if its setup you lose. If its banded, you can kinda deal with it via upper hand and a few intimidate drops, but.. don't count on it.

If anyone has any suggestions to improve on the team feel free to drop your ideas, but i'm still pretty proud of managing to reach past the early ladder with these guys. thanks for reading :)

 

[TDLoriat]

I have seen very few positive comments about Chien Pao. Pao spams strong stab, difficult to resist priority, and Corviknight flinched and couldn’t move. I have little experience playing against Pao because tier heads stab me to death before it comes out, but I do know how Pao plays in literally every other format. I do feel that Pao’s viability can be seen as an effect of Sword of Ruin being dumb. Zamazenta can be seen as one of the best Pao counters and its ban may spell doom for trying to build around it.

tldr:
Pao dummy strong
Sword of Ruin is what I think is to blame
No ice resists?

 

[Sulo]

Hi, I wanna take a moment to talk about some certain mons/sets I think are particularly good atm. A lot of these are obviously known to be good I think, but it wouldn't hurt to provide additional insight given their potency:



A lot of RevenVest mons struggle to effectively take on breakers like Primarina / Walking Wake because their typings don't substantially improve those matchups (and in the case of Manaphy / Swampert, random Grass-type coverage being everywhere); Empoleon is different in that its typing allows it to take them on, meaning it can afford to run a different ability and profit even further. No AV means it can also provide additional utility for teams easily, which is a pretty good breath of fresh air given how strapped mons like Great Tusk can be for moveslots. Volt Absorb lets you sit on stuff that relies on coverage to beat you otherwise, and Bulletproof means its harder for stuff like non-Normalize Gengar / Zoroark-H + the aforementioned PrimSea mons to muscle past you. Its ability to actually beat these gives it a notable niche over other specially defensive Steel-types / special walls, which is why I'm kinda high on it.



The amount of times I've been dogged on by Taunt Great Tusk is too many to count tbh; I think it's the best set by far given how high Corviknight usage is literally all the time. Its utility obviously goes beyond completely bullying Corviknight, too; it lets you effectively stop slower setup mons and annoy basically other slow passive wall, too, like Skarmory or Mandibuzz. Good set, not much else to say.

Now onto the Broken Guy:



I feel like you'd have to get pretty creative in the builder to make something that doesn't get completely destroyed by Chien-Pao in theory; your best bets are probably coming down to Intimidate Corviknight / scouting with something like Primarina or a Regenerator mon neutral to its attacks, which are good answers all things considered (Primarina in particular being a highlight since it goes beyond checking Chien-Pao and has a good matchup into Walking Wake, which is also incredibly good). I think its influence doesn't go much farther than that, however; it's relatively difficult to pull off game-winning stunts because of its flaws (hazard weakness with STAB moves that aren't super free, especially when Iron Hands is on the rise) unless you're relying on a flinch to win, which is probably something that needs to be reevaluated on your part, especially against Corviknight. Zamazenta being likely to be unbanned is also a major point against it, but there's a non-zero chance of it staying banned so it's best not to count on that until it happens.

I might come back with some teams, but I'm tired and was supposed to be doing homework lol.

 

[ljsdnlsdln]

wanted to share this very fun volcanion set that can tear slower teams up:

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Rash Nature
- Substitute
- Flare Blitz
- Fire Spin
- Steam Eruption

the idea is to sub on spdef switchins, trap/burn them and destroy them with blitz. Volk is bulky enough on the physical side for its sub to survive neutral hits from defensive mons. Enough speed to outspeed uninvested manaphy. I would personally like to play this with a gsurge mon like zarude so you win the attrition war against other balance teams but unfort chienpao exists.

Another option is to run this with w absorb/stormdrain and boots(or lefties with if you have good hazard control) or honestly any other immunity ability. I threw an anti hazard team together with this set, and although i didnt play as well, you can see how much work volc puts in.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2067110826
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2067124501

 

[Isaiah]

Zamazenta is legal now: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-aaa-suspect-11-zamazenta.3737666/post-10004725

 

[cosmogii]

i'm just gonna say it: people are hella sleeping on scarf meowscarada
in my last post here i spoke about the meowscarada i used on my team, which comprised a TON of roles in one. got momentum with hazards, pivoted my slower attackers in, gave utility with grassy surge, etc.
thing is, i don't feel like i did this set justice enough. its proven to be so absurdly useful in almost every game i've played, and i want it to get the attention it deserves.

but don't just take that as the only reason you should be using it, just because some bozo like me found it fitted a supportive/offensive niche very well. this mon can comprise a lot of roles into one, and even if its not ever going to be meta to an extent like corv/zama/chien-pao are, it's something i feel more people should know about. without further ado: our purr-former for the evening!

(Even if they're not viable they're damn adorable, nobody can tell me otherwise)
Meowscarada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough/Triple Axel/Spikes/Toxic Spikes
I believe this is its best set, used as offensive utility.

To kick off some reasons you should use the mon, we'll look at the most common scarfer that meow could be compared to, and list off exactly why it holds a niche over it.

cats will eat the moon one day

It's a REALLY tough mon to beat, and I do believe that moon could be considered generally more effective. HOWEVER: Roaring moon only reaches a speed tier of 555 with a choice scarf and jolly.
Meowscarada on the other hand, jumps up to 568. That blitzes past Scarf Moon, Gholdengo, Walking wake, Scarf Latios, and every ogerpon form at +1, (if for some unhinged reason they're using trailblaze.)
That's all well and good, but roaring moon reaches those same calcs, bar the mirror match-up. You might ask, "Why should I care about the mirror if I can just pack a dark resist instead?" And yes, that's a point I can't even argue against.
But having a scarfer able to revenge against such a significant portion of the metagame, AND keep momentum even on an unfavorable switch with hazards is something entirely exclusive to meowscarada. You trade worse typing and less knock off power in exchange for more utility, grass stab that can bypass those annoying cosmic power sets with automatic crits, and can hit some of the most common regenvest pokemon for extremely heavy damage, or an outright ohko depending on the mon/move.

now we know how speedy this cat is, but speed is only one thing. if you can't hit hard either, then you've failed at your job of offense. good thing that we're not lacking in the power department.

some damage calcs

252 Atk Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 464-548 (132.1 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 180-214 (51.2 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 620-732 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada U -turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 242-286 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring on a critical hit: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 285-336 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 194-230 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 244-288 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Garchomp on a critical hit: 213-252 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake on a critical hit: 222-262 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 252-298 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(will update this more and more as i play more and more games, finding more common sets. i'm still a newish player and idrk all of the common/most used sets in higher ladder gameplay.)

to summarize, meowscarada may not be an ohko machine like other scarfers, but it makes up for that with things like common regenvest users being hit by either of its stabs for neutral/super-effective damage, outspeeds literally every other viable scarfer in the tier, and has versatility in its sets, making it never truly dead weight. i really, REALLY like this pokemon, so maybe give it a shot? if you read through all that stuff without falling asleep, i commend you. have a lovely rest of your day. :)

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

i'm just gonna say it: people are hella sleeping on scarf meowscarada
in my last post here i spoke about the meowscarada i used on my team, which comprised a TON of roles in one. got momentum with hazards, pivoted my slower attackers in, gave utility with grassy surge, etc.
thing is, i don't feel like i did this set justice enough. its proven to be so absurdly useful in almost every game i've played, and i want it to get the attention it deserves.

but don't just take that as the only reason you should be using it, just because some bozo like me found it fitted a supportive/offensive niche very well. this mon can comprise a lot of roles into one, and even if its not ever going to be meta to an extent like corv/zama/chien-pao are, it's something i feel more people should know about. without further ado: our purr-former for the evening!
View attachment 609351 (Even if they're not viable they're damn adorable, nobody can tell me otherwise)
Meowscarada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough/Triple Axel/Spikes/Toxic Spikes
I believe this is its best set, used as offensive utility.

To kick off some reasons you should use the mon, we'll look at the most common scarfer that meow could be compared to, and list off exactly why it holds a niche over it.

cats will eat the moon one day

It's a REALLY tough mon to beat, and I do believe that moon could be considered generally more effective. HOWEVER: Roaring moon only reaches a speed tier of 555 with a choice scarf and jolly.
Meowscarada on the other hand, jumps up to 568. That blitzes past Scarf Moon, Gholdengo, Walking wake, Scarf Latios, and every ogerpon form at +1, (if for some unhinged reason they're using trailblaze.)
That's all well and good, but roaring moon reaches those same calcs, bar the mirror match-up. You might ask, "Why should I care about the mirror if I can just pack a dark resist instead?" And yes, that's a point I can't even argue against.
But having a scarfer able to revenge against such a significant portion of the metagame, AND keep momentum even on an unfavorable switch with hazards is something entirely exclusive to meowscarada. You trade worse typing and less knock off power in exchange for more utility, grass stab that can bypass those annoying cosmic power sets with automatic crits, and can hit some of the most common regenvest pokemon for extremely heavy damage, or an outright ohko depending on the mon/move.

now we know how speedy this cat is, but speed is only one thing. if you can't hit hard either, then you've failed at your job of offense. good thing that we're not lacking in the power department.

some damage calcs

252 Atk Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 464-548 (132.1 - 156.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Meowscarada U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 180-214 (51.2 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 620-732 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada U -turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 242-286 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring on a critical hit: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Moth: 285-336 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 194-230 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 244-288 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Garchomp on a critical hit: 213-252 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake on a critical hit: 222-262 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 252-298 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(will update this more and more as i play more and more games, finding more common sets. i'm still a newish player and idrk all of the common/most used sets in higher ladder gameplay.)

to summarize, meowscarada may not be an ohko machine like other scarfers, but it makes up for that with things like common regenvest users being hit by either of its stabs for neutral/super-effective damage, outspeeds literally every other viable scarfer in the tier, and has versatility in its sets, making it never truly dead weight. i really, REALLY like this pokemon, so maybe give it a shot? if you read through all that stuff without falling asleep, i commend you. have a lovely rest of your day. :)

Meow is a very solid scarfer, however, Roaring Moon is just better thanks to the insane attack stat Roaring Moon has (139) while Meow is only 110 attack. Moon also has the advantage of hitting Steel types like Heatran and Empoleon as well as Iron Moth and non EE Iron Hands.

 

[Isaiah]

SURVEY TIME!!!

>>> CLICK HERE TO SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE METAGAME <<<

This will be open until Sunday @ 10:00 AM GMT -6.​

 

[cosmogii]

Meow is a very solid scarfer, however, Roaring Moon is just better thanks to the insane attack stat Roaring Moon has (139) while Meow is only 110 attack. Moon also has the advantage of hitting Steel types like Heatran and Empoleon as well as Iron Moth and non EE Iron Hands.

and i admitted in the post that roaring moon fits on a wider variety of teams. but the point of meowscarada isn't to be a pure breaker/sweeper like moon, its an offensively oriented utility mon. all that really means is, meowscarada is better at generating momentum through the long game via hazards + knock rather than straight blowing past all its checks like roaring moon. the damage is a perk, not why you'd specifically use it over moon.

 

[TDLoriat]

I personally would like to campaign for a native user system by just talking about implementation and abilities likely to be restricted.
Magnet pull: you have 3 choices, all of which would rather run something else or that lose to the metal birds outright
Poison heal: I personally dislike gliscor and its shenaniganery, however, I want more diversity in physical walls and Gliscor offers something that isnt a metal bird.
Contrary: The pokemon that run contrary arent that good to begin with, and rely heavily on contrary to remain viable outside of OMs.
Huge/Pure Power: (Why are these two different abilities) Medicham and azumarill are mid overall and an increased power level means they would actively be worse.
Illusion: Its literally 2 mons that are both not that great and want other abilities.
Imposter: Its just ditto and ditto isnt good.
Good as Gold: Gholdengo is still annoying and I doubt implementing an ability I dont think it would even run would change it.
Stakeout: All of these pokemon suck.
Magic Bounce: Hatterene and Espeon aren’t that good.
Ice scales: Its just frosmoth.
Comatose: Its just Komala.
Simple: Numel is a little cup pokemon.
Triage: Its just Comfey.
Water Bubble: Araquanid is perfectly reasonable and should be allowed within 1000 feet of a school.
Fur coat: Its just one guy.

In conclusion, 90% of ability bans could probably be turned into restrictions and do absolutely nothing whatsoever.

 

[cosmogii]

I personally would like to campaign for a native user system by just talking about implementation and abilities likely to be restricted.
Poison heal: I personally dislike gliscor and its shenaniganry, however, I want more diversity in physical walls and Gliscor offers something that isnt a metal bird.

hella agree with this in particular, more options would be a blessing. having to use corv on every balance team is annoying, and another viable ground would be dope, plus the added bonus of it being a knock absorber is even better, cause there aren't a ton of those around currently; if any at all besides the ogerpon forms. but those aren't exactly defensive. (i guess technically some regenvest mons can be a knock absorber once their av goes bye bye, but those are mostly spdef oriented anyways besides phys iron hands)
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 138-163 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Knock Off vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 93-109 (26.4 - 30.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal

 

[AmyGay]

I personally would like to campaign for a native user system by just talking about implementation and abilities likely to be restricted.
Magnet pull: you have 3 choices, all of which would rather run something else or that lose to the metal birds outright
Poison heal: I personally dislike gliscor and its shenaniganery, however, I want more diversity in physical walls and Gliscor offers something that isnt a metal bird.
Contrary: The pokemon that run contrary arent that good to begin with, and rely heavily on contrary to remain viable outside of OMs.
Huge/Pure Power: (Why are these two different abilities) Medicham and azumarill are mid overall and an increased power level means they would actively be worse.
Illusion: Its literally 2 mons that are both not that great and want other abilities.
Imposter: Its just ditto and ditto isnt good.
Good as Gold: Gholdengo is still annoying and I doubt implementing an ability I dont think it would even run would change it.
Stakeout: All of these pokemon suck.
Magic Bounce: Hatterene and Espeon aren’t that good.
Ice scales: Its just frosmoth.
Comatose: Its just Komala.
Simple: Numel is a little cup pokemon.
Triage: Its just Comfey.
Water Bubble: Araquanid is perfectly reasonable and should be allowed within 1000 feet of a school.

In conclusion, 90% of ability bans could probably be turned into restrictions and do absolutely nothing whatsoever.

I definitely agree with this. Also, Huge and Pure Power are two different abilities because Huge Power is a rabbit pun in Japanese (hence why it's given to rabbit-like Pokemon)

 

[TDLoriat]

To follow up on my restricted abilities list, I have decided to post a list of abilities that should stay banned.
Shadow tag/Arena Trap: Usable on multiple pokemon that have them and still broken.
Gorilla tactics: Physical attackers are still very good, and don’t need more multiplier fodder. No native user.
Speed Boost: Do I really need to explain it?
Moody: If it gets banned from ubers, it’s probably good.
Orichalcum pulse: Sun is good, and will be good, possibly forever. No legal native user.
Parental bond: Gen 6 players get it. No native user.
Wonder guard: It’d be funny tho. But no native user.
Unburden: Its good, widely available, and I don’t like it.
Innards out: Penalizes getting KOs. Also, no native user.
Neutralizing gas: Defeats the purpose of the tier.
Toxic Debris: This I think is the most contentious pick, and I may just be a hater, but I find the ease that Glimmora sets up hazards leads to either a necessitated poison type or heavy duty boots spam. There is only one native user, and that user wants a ground immunity desperately, but I find the ability is still overly centralizing.

Anyways, I probably am stupid and/or wrong, so correct me or don’t I just want magnet pull magnezone back.

 

[Hera]

posting my thoughts on survey questions

1. pao is such an utterly fake mon tbh. most builds have natural ways of dealing with pao between the wide array of defensive counterplay (intim corvid, phydef regenvest mana, stacking resists and outplaying) and offensive counterplay (all the scarfers, zama-h, barra), and if you really wanna stonewall pao you can just run like thick fat tusk or something and never have to care about it. being weak to rocks is also ass. hell, my plan in builder vs pao is to believe it's fake as shit and it generally works out, cause even when you don't have the hard counter there are so many flaws to exploit with pao and with pao teams in general. flinch arguments would be more convincing if the only switch-in that didn't die to a flinch was intim corvid, which is also a roll (-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 135-159 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery), while all the other mons just do not care, and if pao has actual long-term pressure, which it doesn't because rocks. idt having a powerful and linear yet volatile breaker like pao is a bad thing when its flaws are so clearly exploitable.

3. cerul's impact on the meta has flucuated a lot since beginning of the gen; it's either mid or looks semi-busted, no in-between. this is probably one of those phases where people just aren't respecting cerul in builder enough (me included), and i think we're gonna see that change later on since cerul does have counterplay, it's just that people aren't really using it. this is higher than pao because we've done this same song and dance before and honestly i'm rather tired of cerul continuing to toe the line like this, this is like the 3rd time cerul's been possibly broken. cerul also has more ways around its couterplay between band and sd not revealing themselves until it clicks a move, sclaw for itemless wbb mons (i have done this before in triage meta so yes, it does work), and more niche things like the old wisp sd sets that are amazing stallbreakers. i think if it was suspected i would vote dnb though.

Are there any other Pokemon/abilities that you would like to see unbanned?

magic bounce idt we ever really gave noivern a fair chance in this meta. it got banned eariler on in a meta with less powercreep and ever since then, the meta has changed drastically and is generally less hospitable to vern. more regenvest to stuff it out, rocks are harder to remove, more flying resists in general, and it does add stall counterplay to the meta so it's not like it would be a totally negative influence. i can get why it hasn't been suspected yet but if we can free clearly broken shit like keld for a week then i don't see why vern has to stay gone. the same goes for bundle; i never thought it was judged fairly cause it was legal at the same time keld was, which warped building so much around it and made bundle look more broken than it actually was, and i think in a meta without keld, bundle could be balanced.

Do you have any other comments/suggestions/concerns?

stall. i've mellowed out a decent amount on it mainly due to meta shifts + reconsidering some stuff, idt it's the best playstyle anymore. but i'm still not exactly happy about its influence on the meta as well as its influence in builder. unless you load into the perfect mu with your breaker you have to have the right tools in builder to even think about beating stall and stall itself has a bunch of ways around its counterplay. if you look at a game like this where a team with ample stall counterplay (tbolt dnite + moon + knockturn regenvest + specs wake) still ends up losing because the stall team changed one mon speaks to me about how effective stall can be in the rights hands. i think a meta where stall is not viable or fringe viable is better than a meta where stall is viable currently.

"native abilites"
yes. it gives us more options to work with and most of the mons would not be broken. outside of the obvious brokens (moody mainly), i also have a thing against illusion being freed in any aspect cause i think that ability at its core is just blatantly uncompetitive, but i'm a bit biased cause most of my experience with illusion is in lower tiers and randbats. personally though i just don't like the 50/50s illusion creates in a tier where checks to mons can often be minmaxed on one side in exchange for losing out on another (e.g imagine switching in your fluffy corvid into a band moon only to get ohkoed by a specs flamethrower and now you can't actually beat moon, or staying in with tusk on a wake you think is actually zoro only for it to kill you with wball anyway), and then spreading those 50/50s out to literally every mon that isn't weak to, immune to, or resists rocks.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I'm a huge opponent of native abilities. Most of them don't bring anything of value to the metagame, so it's just deciding to arbitarily be inconsistent because we what, really want poison heal gliscor? Some of them are actively cancerous, too; Magnet Pull should never see the light of day (imagine trying to face down the likes of roaring moon or even meowscarada when corv goes from a check to liability with one uturn) and GAG gholdengo is a real "run tusk or get fucked" moment. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are just innately uncompetitive and should especially stay the fuck out.

 

[TDLoriat]

I'm a huge opponent of native abilities. Most of them don't bring anything of value to the metagame, so it's just deciding to arbitarily be inconsistent because we what, really want poison heal gliscor? Some of them are actively cancerous, too; Magnet Pull should never see the light of day (imagine trying to face down the likes of roaring moon or even meowscarada when corv goes from a check to liability with one uturn) and GAG gholdengo is a real "run tusk or get fucked" moment. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are just innately uncompetitive and should especially stay the fuck out.

I completely understand this viewpoint, but I believe that team preview eliminates a lot of issues with native users. You see a magnezone and you immediately think magnet pull, because why else would you run magnezone? While this does create more issues with Skarmory and Corviknight being used as physical switchins, Gliscor loves quad ground weaknesses. Gliscor is hurt a lot by relavent water and ice types, and stuff like manaphy or primarina fill that niche totally. I also dont know how relavent gliscor would be with the omnipresent fluffy metal birds. I personally avoid metagames that revolve around Good as Ghold but scrappy Great Tusk is still a common method of hazard removal run on many team types. Arena trap and Shadow tag are uncompetitive and should stay banned regardless of any tiering changes.