AAA Almost Any Ability

[Gambit_Gamin]

Post about the two biggest issues in AAA, from my perspective!

So since I am done laddering for the foreseeable future I want to address the 2 elements within the metagame that I personally find egregious in nature and need to be addressed in some form.

​

Gouging Fire is frankly busted, and honestly entirely quick ban worthy. This is a Pokemon whose only real good answers are Well Baked Body Corviknight / Skarmory and the former is forced to run Iron Defense if it doesn't get the boost and the Gouging has Dragon Claw/Outrage as it can feasibly boost to infinity and then brute force through it. There are 2 common sets with one anti-meta set, the common ones being Magic Guard with Flare Blitz / EQ or Dragon Claw / Dragon Dance / Morning Sun or Desolate Land with Flare Blitz or Heat Crash / EQ or Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail / Dragon Dance or Dragon Tail / Morning Sun. Both of these versions can be built for speed or bulk (this ignores the fact that Gouging is like Great Tusk with usuable Special Defense even without bulk investment). The anti-meta set is simply Mold Breaker which allows it to bypass answers more readily whilst sacrificing power and longevity.

Gouging Fire is just flat out broken though, practically no answers and the ability to easily sweep with great overall bulk means you have a little leeway in regards to answering it's power.

​

The other Pokemon, Chien-Pao is less broken then Gouging Fire but I think it is even more unhealthy in nature rather then just straight up busted. Reason? Simple, Chien-Pao despite facing common answers in Corviknight is able to actually muscle by them through Flinch hax. This is ignoring it's blatant power and great offensive typing. This thing has remained in the metagame for a long time despite it's contentious nature and I think it's about time it received a suspect in order for the community to decide as the council is clearly too divided or at least was in the past. My change of opinion regarding Chien-Pao came as a result of a battle in which the opposing Chien-Pao broke through a defensive Primarina AND Corviknight through simple flinches, this isn't healthy sadly, if it weren't for Icicile crash this mon would probably be fine but the fact that it isn't effected by Fluffy just makes it so much worse.

TLDR; Suspect Chien-Pao, Quick Ban Gouging Fire!

I would certainly agree with you on Chien-Pao but I'm not so sure about Gouging Fire and I think it has more counters then you say it has.
First off, theres WBB Corv which just totally destroys Gouging Fire. I've also been seeing a rise in Hippodown being both Unaware and Intimidate variants. Primordial Sea Archaludon is more of a check than a counter, but it can work somewhat well against it. Deoxys-D is also fairly decent against it. I think both need suspects but I don't think Gouging Fire should be quickbanned. Then again, you are #1 on the ladder so idk lol.

 

[LordBox]

I would certainly agree with you on Chien-Pao but I'm not so sure about Gouging Fire and I think it has more counters then you say it has.
First off, theres WBB Corv which just totally destroys Gouging Fire. I've also been seeing a rise in Hippodown being both Unaware and Intimidate variants. Primordial Sea Archaludon is more of a check than a counter, but it can work somewhat well against it. Deoxys-D is also fairly decent against it. I think both need suspects but I don't think Gouging Fire should be quickbanned. Then again, you are #1 on the ladder so idk lol.

Primordial Sea Arch is hardly a good check at all given +1 EQ or just 2 EQs from SoR/MGLO threaten to demolish it instantly. Hippowdown is a niche mon that is a great way to sap all of the momentum out of a team, and isn't even a secure answer as FBlitz can 2HKO in Sun with light chip while also easily eating an EQ from Hippowdown. This honestly applies to the majority of "checks" it has, all being incredibly shaky. Unaware Deoxys-Defense and Mandibuzz all hate having to switch directly into Gouging as it threatens to spam powerful FBlitzes that teeter on 2HKO range with chip or just directly with more powerful variants. Fat Tusk exists but lacks recovery and Gouging can just hit it once, then switch out and come back in later and easily win. Or, it can just eat an EQ from it and win anyway. Primarina can lack Regen and suffers from the same issue as Tusk, worn down. Or in the case of Regen variants, get owned by it setting up and then blasting it with EQ as Gouging is fat enough to eat Primarina's attacks pretty comfortably unless all-out specs. WBB Corv is really the main secure answer it has and has little other secure answers that can stop it from sweeping the game apart from niche Baked mons or stuff like EE Garg (which I maintain is viable, but no one else thinks so shrug) and the fact that set went from pretty unviable to its current relevance is definitely an indication of the effect Gouging has on the teambuilder.

 

[Kinetic]

Post about the two biggest issues in AAA, from my perspective!

So since I am done laddering for the foreseeable future I want to address the 2 elements within the metagame that I personally find egregious in nature and need to be addressed in some form.

​

Gouging Fire is frankly busted, and honestly entirely quick ban worthy. This is a Pokemon whose only real good answers are Well Baked Body Corviknight / Skarmory and the former is forced to run Iron Defense if it doesn't get the boost and the Gouging has Dragon Claw/Outrage as it can feasibly boost to infinity and then brute force through it. There are 2 common sets with one anti-meta set, the common ones being Magic Guard with Flare Blitz / EQ or Dragon Claw / Dragon Dance / Morning Sun or Desolate Land with Flare Blitz or Heat Crash / EQ or Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail / Dragon Dance or Dragon Tail / Morning Sun. Both of these versions can be built for speed or bulk (this ignores the fact that Gouging is like Great Tusk with usuable Special Defense even without bulk investment). The anti-meta set is simply Mold Breaker which allows it to bypass answers more readily whilst sacrificing power and longevity.

Gouging Fire is just flat out broken though, practically no answers and the ability to easily sweep with great overall bulk means you have a little leeway in regards to answering it's power.

​

The other Pokemon, Chien-Pao is less broken then Gouging Fire but I think it is even more unhealthy in nature rather then just straight up busted. Reason? Simple, Chien-Pao despite facing common answers in Corviknight is able to actually muscle by them through Flinch hax. This is ignoring it's blatant power and great offensive typing. This thing has remained in the metagame for a long time despite it's contentious nature and I think it's about time it received a suspect in order for the community to decide as the council is clearly too divided or at least was in the past. My change of opinion regarding Chien-Pao came as a result of a battle in which the opposing Chien-Pao broke through a defensive Primarina AND Corviknight through simple flinches, this isn't healthy sadly, if it weren't for Icicile crash this mon would probably be fine but the fact that it isn't effected by Fluffy just makes it so much worse.

TLDR; Suspect Chien-Pao, Quick Ban Gouging Fire!


Here is a replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2040528144

I agree that there should be action on Gouging Fire and/or Chien-Pao.


I made another post on it here, but the tldr is that this mon has very few answers both offensively and defensively. Defensively, like Gia said, only WBB Corv/Skarm with Iron Defense consistently beat it, and were it not for this mon no one would be running WBB on Corv/Skarm or Iron Defense on Corv. Unaware mons like Mandibuzz/Deo-D/Pecharunt take way too much damage from any damage amp set, and Magic Guard can just infinitely heal on them, only really fearing a Thunder Wave from Deo-D. Some Ground-types like Great Tusk can take a hit and threaten significant damage back, but it's not always enough to kill and Gouging can always just use Flare Blitz on the switch then claim a kill later (almost no one is using Regen Tusk). Offensively, most things slower than it can't 1v1 it outside of Great Tusk and maybe Iron Hands (?), and the only mons that can outspeed and OHKO it are Sandy Shocks, Specs Deo-S, and some Dragon-types like Latios, Walking Wake, and Roaring Moon. However, all of these mons are outsped by Gouging Fire after a Dragon Dance (except Timid Deo-S and Scarf Sandy Shocks but those are very rare), and once it gets a Dragon Dance off, every offensive mon is dying in one hit, most defensive mons in one or two hits, and the only common mon that can outspeed and OHKO it is Scarf Roaring Moon. This mon is overall just very oppresive in game and hard to deal with in the builder, which is why I support a Suspect or Quickban.

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2039800028-ntsttqiebtvdz2y7v4bjxow9mtookdqpw


Choice Band sets just hit insanely hard and are insanely fast. The only common and "reliable" defensive counterplay is Intimidate Corviknight, which is declining in usage in favor of Fluffy, and can very easily get flinch haxed by Icicle Crash or get a defense drop from Crunch and die after slight chip because of that anyways. The only other reliable defensive counterplay is Regen Archaludon, Regen Physdef Manaphy, and defensive Quaquaval, none of which are very common (or good in Quaquaval's case imo) right now. Every other physically defensive mon like Mandibuzz, Deo-D, and Pecharunt are all weak to its STAB combo, which is nearly unresisted except for the rare ZamaC and the less rare Primarina (who isn't a good switch-in unless its some weird defensive set). Offensively, Choice Scarfers, Gouging Fire, Iron Hands, and the aforementioned Primarina can check it, but basically every other mon is toast to one of its STAB combo, Sacred Sword, or Ice Shard. Because of these traits making it restrictive in builder and in game, I also support Chien-Pao being Suspected or Quickbanned.

 

[LordBox]

>>> Tiering Survey Time! <<<
(click on the words above for survey)

The meta has stabilised from the chaos brought upon by DLC2 so the council has decided it is now ample time to drop another tiering survey to gauge and focus future action. If you have any mons you wish to see banned, unbanned or any other comments for the council this is the perfect time to make your voice heard! Survey will be left open until 10 PM GMT -6 on January 27.​

 

[eto89]

>>> Tiering Survey Time! <<<
(clink on the words above for survey)

The meta has stabilised from the chaos brought upon by DLC2 so the council has decided it is now ample time to drop another tiering survey to gauge and focus future action. If you have any mons you wish to see banned, unbanned or any other comments for the council this is the perfect time to make your voice heard! Survey will be left open until 10 PM GMT -6 on January 27.​

Wait on the survey there's a question for what do you think about unbanning Zama hero form, are we talking about restricting it's ability or have I skipped something? I don't think anyone would want a fighting type chien pao that's harder to revenge kill running around but maybe I'm missing something

 

[Isaiah]

Wait on the survey there's a question for what do you think about unbanning Zama hero form, are we talking about restricting it's ability or have I skipped something? I don't think anyone would want a fighting type chien pao that's harder to revenge kill running around but maybe I'm missing something

No restrictions here! If unbanned, it would be Zamazenta-H with almost any ability.

 

[aiko's band]

Trick Room is real (cope)
​

With the freeing of and and more than 1 trick room user that is existing (lol), I personally think its actually usable. Is it better over literally every other HO style? Fuck no. Is it fun to click buttons with these mons? Fuck yeah.

Trick Room Setters:

I recommend sticking to these two.
Sets up stealth rock and access to teleport to always go last and safely get in your devastating sweeper.
Rachi also sets up stealth rock and has a objectively worse pivoting move, but healing wish and literally being a steel saves it.


Offensive TR Setters:
Blows up shit with stab shadow ball and whatever ability you decide to throw on.
Same as above.

Okay, I know this is a pure meme (the whole style is) , but this guy is objectively better because he's a tree.

Pure Offensive TR Abusers

Any offensive set is usually fine. This guy is also your ONE check on the team. He's also very bulky (lol)
I'd honestly go it's native ability in Guts. Facade go brrrr. Ghost resist and just bulky af.
SFLO set does dumb stuff like 2hkoing standard with Focus Blast lol.

Last slot options:
Primsea does stupid amounts of damage like again, 2hkoing standard with steam eruption.
Can "check" under Trick Room and goes stupid with SD Adaptability Kowtow Cleave. Also checks 's Espeed. It's also a dark + ghost resist
Basically the same as Gambit but it gets access to knock off and doesn't get SD. It also has a much wider movepool. Dark + Ghost resist as well.
Horse has SD and Icicle Crash to do some bullying on Intimidate and 99% of Unaware mons.





TLDR; Trick Room is actually usable in AAA

 

[cat]

Underrated threats in the current meta ​

was thinking of ideas to make for my 500th post and settled on making a fun post here :3
The header pretty much explains what this post is about - I'd like to highlight some underrated threats that can do pretty well in the current meta.


Cinderace @ Choice Band
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn

CB Ace has always been an underrated threat imo - while hard counters like WBB Gholdengo, Corv, Skarm, and Mandi exist, it can turn these into free momentum by pivoting out with U-turn. Its raw power is pretty noticeable too - if you're relying on something like Swampert to try and check it, you will be brutally awakened to it doing more than 50% with Pyro Ball. While by no means broken or banworthy, it's a pretty strong breaker that doesn't see a lot of usage but I do think that it is fun to use.

calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Manaphy in Harsh Sunshine: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy in Harsh Sunshine: 147-173 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Swampert in Harsh Sunshine: 221-261 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 207-244 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 136-161 (34 - 40.2%) -- 37.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon in Harsh Sunshine: 269-317 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 294-346 (111.7 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 166-196 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 212-250 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance
Kingambit.... is a Kingambit. He's pretty silly though - the more people forget about him, the stronger he becomes (and hence: the less viable he is, the more viable he is). While slapping on a Tusk and calling it a day works, Kingambit can outlast non-Regen Tusk by clicking Iron Head ~5 times and you can't really punish it since almost everything that wants to switch into Iron Head doesn't like switching into Kowtow - or even worse, it clicking SD and you not having a way to threaten force it out. On offense teams, Kingambit is one of the best answers to Dragonite - in a pinch, it can live an EQ from full and OHKO back with Kowtow after accounting for rocks and LO chip, or with Sucker Punch after accounting for rocks and LO.

calcs

252+ Atk Adaptability Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 118-140 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 262-310 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (91% HP)
252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 216-256 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (81% HP)
+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 262-310 (65.5 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 214-254 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Corviknight: 175-206 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Adaptability Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Skarmory: 142-168 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Inteleon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Weather Ball
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Mud Shot


Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Steam Eruption
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast

The two special PrimSea users fell off in DLC 1 with Manaphy as the most popular RegenVest user, and with Hoodra not far behind. Another noteworthy addition in DLC 1 was Wake's reintroduction to the tier, outclassing these two for the most part. However, with DLC 2's recent addition in Swampert, who has overtaken Manaphy in terms of popularity (as seen in usage stats), these Waters look to be doing pretty well in the current meta. Inteleon's speed, notably outspeed a large majority of the unboosted metagame, and pivoting capabilities makes it a decent breaker on balance teams while Volcanion's raw power makes it harder to consistently switch into. Pair one of these with Knock support from the likes of Azelf, and RegenVest users can quickly be overwhelmed by their raw power.

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert in Heavy Rain: 184-217 (45.5 - 53.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Manaphy in Heavy Rain: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Manaphy in Heavy Rain: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 145-172 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 217-256 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Heavy Rain: 176-207 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Mud Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 324-384 (107.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Weather Ball (100 BP Water) vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Blissey in Heavy Rain: 252-297 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Swampert in Heavy Rain: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Manaphy in Heavy Rain: 106-126 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- 28.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Manaphy in Heavy Rain: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta in Heavy Rain: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Heavy Rain: 219-258 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 426-502 (121.3 - 143%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge in Harsh Sunshine: 201-237 (69 - 81.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth in Harsh Sunshine: 186-219 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra-Hisui: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Thought that I might as well give my thoughts on Pao / GFire here here.


If I'm gonna be honest, I think its both banworthy and not banworthy at the same time...? While it is pretty tough to consistently switch into since it can outlast its checks with Morning Sun and/or MGLO, it also feels pretty tough for it to DD in my experience, and at +1 it still gets outsped by Scarfers like Azelf and Moon. This can be solved by DDing twice however, so making sure its in a position to never DD twice is important. Hard counters exist too - WBB Corv/ WBB Skarm/ WBB Mandi with Foul Play are all pretty ok mons in their own right, but GFire is one of the main reasons why they exist.


(Let's be real here, CB is the only good set and SD sucks.) Tbh, Pao is broken. I gave it a bit of thought and concluded that it's only reliable switchins were Intim Corviknight / Intim Skarm / Primarina which needs to be at full almost every time it switches in on a STAB. Almost everything else loses to coverage - Kingambit and ZamaC are preyed on by Sacred Sword, Intim Quaquaval can fall short to the rare Psychic Fangs (because ofc it gets that), and hell, if it really wants to, you could probably use Ruination last as a means to actually harm its checks (i am not functioning rn please help me). With that said, ZamaH seems like itll be able to force out Pao consistently / revenge kill it, so maybe it'll remain as suspect and not banworthy...?

 

[ToluTTT]

Much like Ghouldengo can do offensivly, GF can run so many different abilities that make it really difficult to build to stop all of them. You use a physdef/intimidate swampert to stop it? Earth Eater. You use the best checks possible of a WBB Corv/Skarm? Turboblaze. You use a desperation toxic in hopes that it'll wear down the opposing Gouging Fire before it sweeps? Magic Guard. It can even run an amazing defensive set with lava plume to burn everything, Burning Bulwark to essentially be immune to contact moves and great instant recovery lmao.

Obviously running each different ability has its downsides and GF can't just beat EVERYTHING, but it's also a lot of teambuilding stress to plan for all the stuff it can do. Does that make it broken? IDK. But I do think there's a reason that GF is the only mon in the game with access to Flare Blitz, Earthquake and Outrage with STAB on 2/3 of those moves. It's a stupidly strong combo. And in AAA it stops you from being able to check it with a WBB steel type that doesn't fly cuz of Earthquake

 

[Isaiah]

After observing heavy support in favor of categorizing Gouging Fire (3.86) and Chien-Pao (3.45) as unhealthy + reaching close to our typical final number of votes (44 responses at the time of the council slate going up), we voted on the two of them a little early with these options: ban, suspect test, or no action. The results are as follows:

Gouging Fire:
Suspect: Quantum Tesseract, Atha, Ivar57, LordBox -- 4
No Action: Isaiah, DeepFriedMagikarp -- 2

Chien-Pao:
Suspect: DeepFriedMagikarp, LordBox -- 2
No Action: Quantum Tesseract, Atha, Ivar57, Isaiah -- 4

The vote went up two days ago and concluded a couple of hours ago. As you can see, Gouging Fire will receive a suspect test (going up whenever it's ready, likely within the next hour or two). Chien-Pao will not receive action at this time.

In the case of Chien-Pao, it's pretty clear that the trend on the survey and council opinions on this Pokemon don't fully align, as displayed by majority of council members actually opting for no action. I encourage anyone who does have opinions on Chien-Pao to post in this thread aside from responding to the survey (including council members) so we can have more discussion on the topic.

 

[Isaiah]

I voted no action Gouging Fire and Chien-Pao. Based on my assessment of teambuilding (yes, from a perspective biased towards assuming every team is going to be at least workable), there are enough ways for a decently built team to handle them both that I don't think action is necessary at the moment.


Gouging Fire is difficult to account for with any single slot on a team, but I'd argue that a good team shouldn't be trying to cover any high tier threat with just one slot to begin with.

Hyper Offense: Sticky Web prevents the non-HDB sets from getting much advantage from a Dragon Dance or Scale Shot, viable webs threats like Great Tusk, Manaphy (somewhat depends on set in this case), Iron Boulder, etc. do a pretty good job of threatening Gouging and preventing it from going for an advantage state without either sacrificing lots of health or one (or more) of its teammates. I'd say dual screens performs similarly, with the difference being that you get to make your Pokemon tanky instead of artificially fast. I can already see some argumentation along the lines of "what if they're using their own Gouging Fire on webs/behind screens?" to which I'd answer that first, I don't think Gouging Fire is a very good sticky web candidate to begin with and second, screens is broken anyway let's ban Light Clay. Realistically though, HO vs HO matchups are volatile to begin with and I don't consider Gouging particularly difficult to pick out strong counterplay against when building offense teams.

Balance and stuff: Well-Baked Body is an obvious immunity choice on something like a Skarmory or Corviknight (maybe even Gholdengo if you want to risk EQ) if you want defensive counterplay on a slower-paced team, and with the existence of nasty stuff like Ceruledge, SFLO Volcarona, these aren't exactly farfetched options. Overlapping attempted hard answers like this with other generally bulky stuff like Regen Swampert (takes a lot of dmg if vest, but can do alright w/o vest due to options like Roar and max physdef), Deoxys-D, and even Primarina is something I consider quite productive in teambuilding. I don't consider this to be overly demanding either, because all of these elements were common before people started trying to take advantage of Gouging Fire anyway, and the vast majority of "good" teams should be considering at least one or two of them for other reasons regardless.

Offensive counterplay in a vacuum: There's a lot of fast stuff in the tier. People are running Scarf Azelf, Specs Deoxys-S, Roaring Moon, Chien-Pao, Latios, Ogerpon-C, Walking Wake, etc. -- all super strong guys who either KO or threaten enough damage to prevent Gouging from doing much more than potentially getting a trade or a 1.5. If your team has to trade a mon in order to beat something, that can be a feature; it doesn't have to be a bug. You don't need to uncompromisingly keep all of your Pokemon every time you want to beat something, and you will find in a lot of high level games that people intentionally give tools up all the time (and not by accident). I think that in practice, there are enough ways to threaten this situation or perform it outright that if a Gouging Fire is really getting a win, it's not going to be free or without a reasonable amount of positioning or play from the user.

The fact that Gouging Fire can run a lot of sets doesn't actually mean much in practice. It's not Dragon Dance AND Scale Shot AND Burning Bulwark AND Flare Blitz AND Earthquake AND Outrage AND Dragon Claw (and yes, Thunder Fang -_-), and even if you act like it is, most of those options can be consolidated into categories that are handled by similar things (e.g. if you have counterplay to flare blitz + dragon move, you're probably fine against majority of them).


Chien-Pao does require certain types of counterplay to beat, but I think sometimes people portray the matchup as if you have to give up an arm and leg to beat this mon, and I just don't really buy it. Contrary to seemingly popular belief, just because a Pokemon isn't on 100% of other's teams doesn't mean you aren't allowed to use it on your own teams (see: physdef Manaphy, physdef Swampert, Intimidate Corviknight/Skarmory, defensive Primarina sets, the odd Zamazenta-C, various Scream Tail techs, etc.). Most of these are options that, unless you're trying to build a troll team, should find their way onto any decent team in some way to begin with. You want general physical attacker answers, and you definitely want Dark-type answers for reasons not even necessarily related to Chien-Pao (Roaring Moon is far more threatening, if anything). Next, the entry hazard argument, which is pretty simple: there are tons of ways to put up hazards, and a lot of people run Chien-Pao sets that are very susceptible to them (Choice Band). This stuff together results in what I perceive as a lot of different ways to pressure Chien-Pao without really giving up elements you should be putting on good teams anyway.

 

[Betticus IV]

Chien wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if it weren't for icicle crash, which just throws any counterplay into disarray. The 30% flinch chance makes it so that it can 'outplay' its checks and either beat or significantly weaken them. For the checks that Isaiah mentioned: Corv, phys def mana/prim can all be beaten the flinch way. Scream Tail and Zama-C are more concrete answers, but are not the easiest to fit on teams and zama barely sees any usage (maybe this will change). Chien has also seen some set variety emerge outside of CB SOR, with HDB SD offering less immediate power for greater flexibility and longevity.

Chien is in a (somewhat) similar situation to triage: it's been in the meta since the beginning, controversial, boom or bust, can outmuscle its checks, and cheese a game. Im also not too sure what it adds to gameplay, The meta would really just lose a breaker that does 50% unless you either run hard counters or don't haxxed by flinch. Sure it isn't a free win and takes some piloting to use, but I don't think it's as big brain of a mon as some give it credit for and still does what it wants fairly easy. I'm honestly kind of surprised this wasn't sus'd along side gouging.

Gouging Fire's limitations don't feel as though they affect the builder as much as they do the opponent. While it does suffer heavy from 4mss and wanting to run 5 different abilities/items, these weaknesses can be patched up with team support and adds an element of uncertainty of what it truly is. I think ToluTTT above post summarizes this problem pretty succinctly. WBB skarm/corv aren't even that good an answer to it, as you have to run ID with them otherwise you will get outmuscled with boosts and d-claw, and I usually prefer running whirlwind/defog. Scarf moon can't reliably revenge as d-claw is a roll, eq doesn't OHKO, and outrage could be switched out on/taken advantage of next turn. Special scarfers are a more reliable answer, but can be checked with a regenvester or just fold when gouging gets to +2. Unaware mons are the best bet, but turboblaze is a very real option, and honestly may be its best ability outside of mg. It also has a great defensive typing + bulk alongside its breaking capabilities, which also add to its problematic nature. Will participate in the sus and most likely vote ban unless it becomes much more manageable by the time voting comes around.

 

[aiko's band]

I will not comment on because it's the pokemon I have the least experience using. I don't have a "feel" for this pokemon, so thus I will not speak on it.


Mega-Weavile is just very annoying to deal with. I find it very hard to run less or fattier structures without facing the prospect of switching into Crunch + Icicle Crash. If really wants to stick it to Intimidate mons like or , he could theoreotically run Lash-Out to just chip it low enough so it's teammates can take advantage of the weakened Steel. Physdef Water mons like , and the less seen & are definitely checks to . With the exception of and it's wishes & 's roost, you have to either choose between weakening with Intimidate or not losing in the long-run with Regenerator. But of the outside the vacuum, you can just set up stealth rock and regen off most hits.

 

[ojr]

Been playing a bit again the past few days for AAALT and have some thoughts about the mons that are being put under the radar.

Gouging Fire.
Set up reliant and needs to lock in with outrage which sucks. Meta is p fast and u will very often find scarfers who can easily outrun Gouging at +1 as its p slow (below base 100). Generally feel like mons that are reliant on ur opp not having immunity based abilities in AAA are never gonna be a consistent game to game bring which is one of the reasons why chien poor is so good. WBB steels ruin its day and those are still p free to run, not to mention other checks i.e. prim, mixed def pert, garg, pecharunt, deo-d, even archaludon, ive even encountered unaware tusk on ladder, to end it off ive even experimented with diancie. This gives me all the reason to believe this guy is pretty alright and deserves some time to settle in the metagame.

Chien poor.
Ill keep it short on this one. I feel nothing rly changed bar triage but dlc gave more checks to it as well i.e. skarm and prim. The mon is still choice reliant to be most effective (this can fucking suck in an offensive metagame giving very easy free turns for set up) + rocks weak. Still a balanced mon to me and actually faces stiff competition from SoR RM as fast offensive dark type.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

Two mons I think are pretty neat in this meta:

Great scarfer that beats Tusk and Prima way better than RMoon while also being faster than RMoon. Pairs beautifully with Manaphy since you absolutely love having that solid Prima answer without having to rely on Energy Ball doing 17%. Would recommend it on a good few teams if you have a good steel bird/GFire MU.
With Thick Fat, probably the best check to GFire and CPao in a vacuum. Also gets a decently strong STAB EQ and can check other fires like Moth very well. Don’t get into the trap of running Spikes, it’s way more efficient to just use rocks in a CB Pao meta. Really loves Scream Tail support so you can get some Wishes in. I’d generally recommend EQ/Ruination/Rocks/Whirlwind but you can swap Whirlwind with Body Press if the team needs it.

Sorry for the short post, just wanted to show people these guys exist. Also, ban Gouging Fire.

 

[Betticus IV]

Chien wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if it weren't for icicle crash, which just throws any counterplay into disarray. The 30% flinch chance makes it so that it can 'outplay' its checks and either beat or significantly weaken them. For the checks that Isaiah mentioned: Corv, phys def mana/prim can all be beaten the flinch way. Scream Tail and Zama-C are more concrete answers, but are not the easiest to fit on teams and zama barely sees any usage (maybe this will change). Chien has also seen some set variety emerge outside of CB SOR, with HDB SD offering less immediate power for greater flexibility and longevity.

Chien is in a (somewhat) similar situation to triage: it's been in the meta since the beginning, controversial, boom or bust, can outmuscle its checks, and cheese a game. Im also not too sure what it adds to gameplay, The meta would really just lose a breaker that does 50% unless you either run hard counters or don't haxxed by flinch. Sure it isn't a free win and takes some piloting to use, but I don't think it's as big brain of a mon as some give it credit for and still does what it wants fairly easy. I'm honestly kind of surprised this wasn't sus'd along side gouging.

Gouging Fire's limitations don't feel as though they affect the builder as much as they do the opponent. While it does suffer heavy from 4mss and wanting to run 5 different abilities/items, these weaknesses can be patched up with team support and adds an element of uncertainty of what it truly is. I think ToluTTT above post summarizes this problem pretty succinctly. WBB skarm/corv aren't even that good an answer to it, as you have to run ID with them otherwise you will get outmuscled with boosts and d-claw, and I usually prefer running whirlwind/defog. Scarf moon can't reliably revenge as d-claw is a roll, eq doesn't OHKO, and outrage could be switched out on/taken advantage of next turn. Special scarfers are a more reliable answer, but can be checked with a regenvester or just fold when gouging gets to +2. Unaware mons are the best bet, but turboblaze is a very real option, and honestly may be its best ability outside of mg. It also has a great defensive typing + bulk alongside its breaking capabilities, which also add to its problematic nature. Will participate in the sus and most likely vote ban unless it becomes much more manageable by the time voting comes around.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-2045779134
Starts at turn 14. Don't ask ab my team, I'm trying to cook (big emphasis on trying).

A perfect example of what I was talking about in this post. My opponent was in the driver's seat when pao was on the field, but I was able to get one SD up and flinch to get through corv. To add insult to injury, the gouging lives but also gets flinched. Did I outplay them to get the 6-0? No. They should not have been punished so heavily for roosting on a pao that did 33%. Ways to mitigate flinch on corv/non thick fat mons would be covert cloak or inner focus. As inner focus is bad, that really only leaves cloak, which could help in things such as the garg mu, but is not the most ideal item. Idk tho

Was using a HDB Adapt set since I was running only STABs, does slightly more damage than SOR and has the added benefit of not revealing the ability.

 

[LordBox]

Public Service Announcement:
HDB/MGLO Chien-Pao is a set that sucks ASS and if you use it I pity you immensely. The fact you even had to flinch to win is sad because CB or even LO SoR would've just straight up blown this team apart anyway because it has a horrible Chien-Pao matchup regardless. As much as we focus on Chien-Pao I'm not really entirely convinced on the "flinch" side of arguments, because you only go for the flinch to win if you are desperate (or just throwing it away because you're running HO and have 3 other breakers). It is overwhelmingly better to just like, not, and keep your broken mon for later and I've never actually had issue in the teambuilder accounting for "flinch". Yeah I've lost a few games to it before but that applies to a lot of mons regardless due to crits or even as something dumb as Flare Blitz burn. I don't hold it really against them because going for that tatic isn't entirely consistent and I don't believe "going for flinches" is either given basically any mon you CAN go for flinches on can also threaten to instantly murder you. Also for more elaboration on why it sucks so much, please calc +2 onto SpD Manaphy and Iron Hands and you will see what I will mean, or even into Fluffy Corv.

 

[Betticus IV]

Public Service Announcement:
HDB/MGLO Chien-Pao is a set that sucks ASS and if you use it I pity you immensely. The fact you even had to flinch to win is sad because CB or even LO SoR would've just straight up blown this team apart anyway because it has a horrible Chien-Pao matchup regardless. As much as we focus on Chien-Pao I'm not really entirely convinced on the "flinch" side of arguments, because you only go for the flinch to win if you are desperate (or just throwing it away because you're running HO and have 3 other breakers). It is overwhelmingly better to just like, not, and keep your broken mon for later and I've never actually had issue in the teambuilder accounting for "flinch". Yeah I've lost a few games to it before but that applies to a lot of mons regardless due to crits or even as something dumb as Flare Blitz burn. I don't hold it really against them because going for that tatic isn't entirely consistent and I don't believe "going for flinches" is either given basically any mon you CAN go for flinches on can also threaten to instantly murder you. Also for more elaboration on why it sucks so much, please calc +2 onto SpD Manaphy and Iron Hands and you will see what I will mean, or even into Fluffy Corv.

I don't account for flinch in team builder, was just throwing out ideas of what one could use if they wanted to, I even say these options are mid at best. With boots, I was able to have the ability to ice shard the moon that was most likely scarfed and clean up the game faster, something I would not have been able to do if CB, which could be seen as a benefit. The reason I wrote my original post was that I was playing a game with a full health full phys def corv and phys def regen manaphy, things that are used to check pao, and I was still flinch haxxed on both and it cost me the game. The reason I replied with the replay is that it is an example (not the end all be all) of what I was talking about. While desperation flinches are definitely a thing, more times than not it just feels like an added benefit. For example, on things such as non BP corv, where the opponent is looking to just chunk me 45-54% on the u-turn (which does less than 50%), but if there is a flinch then it turns into a KO. Even if it is out of desperation, I feel that a 30% chance is pretty high, esp on a mon that 2HKO's a good amount of the meta without any set-up. We have seen people start using thick fat to check chien and gouging, with oddball picks such as florges and diancie being used (even if in a somewhat ironic manner), signs that I believe point to a mon/s not being all that healthy. Sorry I was using a set that sucks ass, but I was just trying out different ways to play chien to see if it could work, as it is just ladder.

 

[Kinetic]

THE URSATRAIN
(400th post woohoo)

​

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon @ Leftovers
Ability: Steam Engine
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 132 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blood Moon
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight

Full disclaimer that I haven't tested this set, but it probably does stuff in practice. For Water moves, the idea is that you bait RegenVest Swampert into switching in and clicking Flip Turn so you can click Calm Mind and get to +6 Speed and just outspeed and kill stuff. For Fire moves, you can switch into Fire moves mons like Gouging and Ceruledge and force them out after getting to +6 Speed. The EV spread lets it OHKO Roaring Moon with a +1 Blood Moon, outspeed up to Choice Scarf Meowscarada after triggering Steam Engine, and the rest is put in bulk. It can also do random stuff like tank a Close Combat from Great Tusk and kill back. Obviously hates Earth Eater Gholdengo though so mons that can help with it are good partners.

also vote ban on gouging fire k thx

 

[CrazyLasagna]

Just felt like sharing two of my favorite sets


Barraskewda @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Primordial Sea
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Liquidation
- Close Combat
- Surf
- Flip Turn

While running Choice Scarf on the torpedo fish might seem silly, it does actually have practical merit. Jolly Choice Scarf outspeeds literally every unboosted or scarf pokemon in the game. The only things that can outspeed it are speed boosted mons, some needing multiple boosts (Great Tusk needs 3 rapid spins to outspeed), or even more questionable scarfers like Deoxys-Speed or Regieleki. Giving Skewda a scarf gets you a mon that you can confidently expect will always outspeed. This makes leading and slow pivoting into Barraskewda extremely reliable and very likely to give you value. This is only compounded by its unexpected nature. Nobody expects it, nobody. As such, you can get away with silly plays like staying in on scarf Meowscarada and OHKOing it with Close Combat. It is this factor that makes it mathematically proven to be the funniest Barraskewda set. Nothing brings me more joy than staying in on a Regieleki and OHKOing it. I rest my case.

Notes: You need a speed boosting nature or you can get outsped by some scarfers like Meowscarada. Also, Surf is not necessary whatsoever but I found it useful funny for Great Tusk, especially Fluffy variants. Also, without Choice Band you lack the power to take advantage of coverage options like Psychic Fangs anyway.



Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Choice Specs, Dragon's Maw, Draco Meteor. The sheer breaking power of this mon is utterly absurd. I managed to kill a Regen-Vest Goodra-H with two Draco Meteor's after setting spikes. Other than Fairy types, nothing likes to switch in on this. Even Blissey gets chunked. When running this mon, my whole gameplan is just giving it a chance to switch in and go for a kill. A lot of the time it does. Sure, other sets might have more flexibility and running Dragons Maw does kinda limit you to Dracos, but are you REALLY playing right if you aren't deleting a mon with a single button press? Yeah, didn't think so.

Here's some calcs I thought were fun

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 273-322 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 273-322 (67.5 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 172-204 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 352-415 (115.7 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 369-435 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Note: I'm running Calm Mind because, honestly, coverage isn't really needed. In 90% of scenarios you're clicking Draco Meteor and the other 9% is either a Psyshock on Blissey or Tricking in specific matchups. While Aura Sphere does give more coverage, most Steel types take comparable damage from Draco Meteor anyway making that a lot safer of an option. I genuinely found Calm Mind to be useful in Trick matchups to regain some of that lost power, but feel free to run Aura Sphere over it. The other moves I wouldn't change though.

 

[Magiquaza]

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Trick

Choice Specs, Dragon's Maw, Draco Meteor. The sheer breaking power of this mon is utterly absurd. I managed to kill a Regen-Vest Goodra-H with two Draco Meteor's after setting spikes. Other than Fairy types, nothing likes to switch in on this. Even Blissey gets chunked. When running this mon, my whole gameplan is just giving it a chance to switch in and go for a kill. A lot of the time it does. Sure, other sets might have more flexibility and running Dragons Maw does kinda limit you to Dracos, but are you REALLY playing right if you aren't deleting a mon with a single button press? Yeah, didn't think so.

In the calm mind slot, you could use memento (some utility and shut down) or its newly gained flip turn, which allows for pivoting, especially when you expect opponent to switch into a regenvester or a fairy (also note that shadow ball and thunderbolt do like 80%+ of hatterene and enam's hp respectively if they switch in granted that they are HP investment with no spD, not sure if those are remotely relevant now that triage is gone though)

Also if you're running surf on the skewda for tusks, you might as well just run pump, the calcs are both hovering around tusk's hp so you need all the damage you can get

 

[LordBox]

Survey Results!
​

The survey has now concluded, with a total of 52 responses, thank you to all those who responded. The compiled answers and average scores for each question are shown below.

Average Score: 7.34/10
This indicates a fairly high amount of enjoyability for the metagame and signals the meta is in a somewhat good position as of now.

Average Score: 7.13/10
Similar to enjoyability, there is a large centralised feeling that the meta is currently in a fairly good position, with a few outliers.

Average Score: 3.77/5
A centralised high score, indicating large dissatisfication with Gouging Fires impact on the meta, reflected in the current suspect test.

Average Score: 3.38/5
A lower score than Gouging by a moderate margin, however still high enough to signify a large amount of discontent against Pao. Notably, despite a large centralised group on it being unhealthy or very unhealthy there is also a larger group leaning towards it being healthy, reflected by its unsuccessful Suspect vote.

Average Score: 2.9/5
A large centralised group around the middle, showing a degree of dissatisfaction towards Iron Boulder but seems to be generally considered less unhealthy than Pao and Gouging even for those who support it being sus. For now, there is no need to warrant action on Iron Boulder but still will be closely watched.

Average Score: 2.67/5
Similar to Iron Boulder, but with a larger skew towards it being healthy. While considered strong, it seems most of the community agrees that it is mostly fine or at most a bit suspect with some dissenters. No action warranted.

Average Score: 2.21/5
Majority skew towards it being healthy/mostly fine. No action warranted.

Average Score: 2.87/5
A large spread of results along with the average indicating a split view on Zama-H, somewhat leaning towards it being possibly healthy with large amount of votes on both sides of the spectrum. Possible unban.

Average Score: 3.13/5
Somewhat similar to Zama-H, but more skewed towards a mixed feeling and retaining less support for it being completely healthy by a significant drop. While less likely, it is still possible for an unban.

Short Answer Notable Mentions:

Lugia: There has been some talk surrounding unbanning Lugia, in fact receiving a vote earlier before DLC2 which failed 4-3. This was mainly due to fears of setup sets becoming overwhelming and unhealthy with its sheer bulk, variety of ability options (Unaware, Fluffy, Purifying Salt, Volt Absorb, etc*). It is possible that we might vote on it later given extra discussion as there is somewhat decent support councilwise but its recent rejection puts a damper on things for now.

Noivern: This has been brought up by a few scant players but for the most part this is rejected. Noivern has proven on multiple occasions to be an extremely strong wallbreaker and while there are somewhat new RegenVests, it is mostly agreed upon that Noivern would prove unhealthy. Its Boombursts are extremely spammable and it finds it easy to get in with some support given its large speed tier. Neutral RegenVests barely prove capable checks given its ease of entry and its sheer strength with Choice Specs. Checks outside of RegenVests are also limited and would force stuff like SpD Corv/Gholdengo which otherwise are fairly unviable. Would warp the meta considerably for really not much benefit.

Giratina: This has also been discussed in similar situation to Lugia, receiving a 3-3-1 vote remaining banned during the DLC2 votes. While it provides a nice defensive option and extra hazard removal, similar concerns of dumb setup are also raised and its potential and its defensive profile potentially proving too much with Regen/other abilities. Potentially in the future if opinions change and there is discussion maybe but somewhat unlikely.

Groudon: Nah.

2AC/NAC: While there was large discussion surrounding the lifting or changing of 1AC, that was at a time of an unfavourable meta. Recently with large satisfaction with the meta for the past part, it seems unlikely for any major change like 2AC/NAC to occur, especially given its poor performance in the last survey before this.

 

[CrazyLasagna]

In the calm mind slot, you could use memento (some utility and shut down) or its newly gained flip turn, which allows for pivoting, especially when you expect opponent to switch into a regenvester or a fairy (also note that shadow ball and thunderbolt do like 80%+ of hatterene and enam's hp respectively if they switch in granted that they are HP investment with no spD, not sure if those are remotely relevant now that triage is gone though)

Also if you're running surf on the skewda for tusks, you might as well just run pump, the calcs are both hovering around tusk's hp so you need all the damage you can get

The team I'm running Latios on heavily relies on it for damage. I also don't have a setup sweeper so memento wouldn't work well for my team. Flip turn though sounds amazing. I totally forgot it now learned that XD. As for hatterene and enam, I literally haven't run into either mon in the last two weeks so I didn't even think about them. The only fairy type I've seen is Scream Tail and even that has been rare.

Hydro is probably better but I really hate the 80% accuracy. The value of a special water move is a surprise KO or huge chunk off Great Tusk that the opponent can't recover from. If I miss that chance I'll likely not get another opportunity. Besides, even Phys Def Great Tusk still takes decent chip from Flip Turns anyway so Surf usually gets the job done.

 

[Isaiah]

Average Score: 2.87/5
A large spread of results along with the average indicating a split view on Zama-H, somewhat leaning towards it being possibly healthy with large amount of votes on both sides of the spectrum. Possible unban.

	Isaiah	DFM	Ivar57	QT	LordBox	Atha	Result
Zamazenta (Hero)	Suspect	Suspect	Suspect	Do Not Suspect	Suspect	Suspect	5-1 Suspect

You already know what it is (after Gouging ofc)

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

Question: why are we unbanning legendaries?