Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Impressions after second Home day, having played way more games today:

-Regieleki Ban definitely improved the meta despite Zapdos and Thundurus-T trying to take it's place.

-Saw less Ursalunas today than yesterday, but the few I saw were just as destructive as always, with or without Trick Room. I still think this Pokemon is the next one that should be banned.

-Most Magearnas I saw today were Trick Room + Eject Pack, which aren't too dangerous. My counterplay to Stored Power sets was the same and it never gave me problems. I finally saw some Specs sets and for now it isn't looking as broken as last Gen, but I do think it will eventually break the Mon, just not yet.

-Chien Pao is extremely strong and I have seen it winning vs teams with 3 Fight Mons + Magearna. Not 100% sure it deserves Ban, but it somehow looks closer to it than Magearna.

-Neither Zamazenta have looked more than "just a solid Mon" to me. They do seem to be an autowin vs the physical based HOs everyone is trying to use these days... but only vs that. The rest team structures look naturally fine vs them. Probably Crowned version would look broken to me if Rest still had 16 PPs, but with just 8 it can't last that much without big support. Regarding Hero one, Iron Valiant looks like a better Mon outside of Chien Pao match-up.

-Just like yesterday (but having played more games) saw exactly one Sneasler and not well used (it was SD + U-Turn), so still can't form an opinion about him outside of theorymoning.

-Once the meta stabilizes and slows down, I am worried about Hoopa-U and Heatran. First has ridiculous power vs slower teams even without Tera, second traps something with Magma Storm, Terastalizes and uses Taunt + Tera Blast to remove answers to non Tera variants. For now it's just Grass Tera, but I am pretty sure people will come up with more ideas. Glad this Mon at least lost Toxic, cause I have been hating his presence since SM

-Sun looks to have completely dissapeared from the ladder and I am not really sure why. Fear of Ursaluna TRs counterteaming? Might be that, but Rain is actually common.

So, to sum it up:
Ban: Ursaluna.
Watch now: Chien Pao and Magearna.
Watch in the (not immediate) future: Heatran and Hoopa-U
Fine: Doggos
Absent and misterious: Sneasler
 
I'm no council member so my opinion means less than nothing, nonetheless the point of these threads is for any idiot like me to share what he's thinking. Wanted to give my two cents on what should be quickbanned soon and what could be given time to develop among the mons being discussed.

:Magearna: :Zamazenta-Crowned: :Chien-Pao: I think explanations on why these 3 are very broken has been done to death now. I don't see a healthy future for these pokemon. Mage can be teched to beat just about anything it seems, forcing Zama-C out is one of the most aggravating and painful tasks ever, and Chien is only here because these 2 manage to successful employ my favourite metagame strategy called broken-check-broken. Would be glad to see em go.

The other 4 that have been discussed I'll tackle separately, starting with:

:Ursaluna: I do think it is broken under trick room, but trick room is definitely A: enabled by broken ass Mag and B: preying on nonsensical day 1 lazy offence teams. Even if trick room should adapt to losing the Gears that make it turn, I think it will still be more on the gimmick end of things. Outside of trick room Luna is still definitely a monster, akin to kingambit in the previous meta. All the same I think it could and should be deserving of time in the tier without the big 3 mentioned above. Luna so far seems like it heavily preys on the extreme ends of the playstyles, Hyper offence and stall, and imo having limitations placed upon those playstyles can be healthy. Going forward should Luna further restrict the building of all other playstyles as well though, I could definitely find myself supporting its ban.

:Zamazenta: On the fence about this, ID sets on it dont hit nearly the same as his Father's do, as lacking steel typing really sucks. Being faster is cool and all but the only speed tier this one is taking over Crowned is Chien-Pao, which ideally is banned regardless so I don't think this benefit matters much. It is also weak as piss, but it is a good tera abuser and it having more set options definitely sets it apart, but no individual set has felt any bit as impressive as I would hope. Also feels hard to actively fit on teams. I think this too, just like Luna, might be preying on lazy early offences, but this prediction I could also see being wrong in the future, and if so, would support a suspect/ban.

:Sneasler: I think this mon will fall off overtime, not just because haha run covert cloak but because I do not think Poison is as spammable of a stab as you'd hope, so forcing something out with it safely while being able to click dire claw isn't often a free situation, and more often than not a hard read (which has a 50% chance to amount to nothing, and a 50% chance to be annoying) and spending games into BO/Balance fishing for poisons or sleeps and wittling down whatever tusk or lando or chomp you load into just seems like a hunk of shit. And then yeah, ofc, there is still covert cloak poisons to be looked into the future, but this point I do not think matters much with the mon options we have at hand.

I thought i would throw in real quick; Physdef Shuca Gholdengo has been smth ive considered cooking up for this that also covers Luna, DD Dnite, Bax, Tusk, and Zamazenta. Seems like a solid set for the potential future, worth trying out (Do not know specifics of what moves or teras to run, that is customization I leave up to you)

Lastly :Urshifu: genuinely don't know what to say on this one. Many seem to think it will be a future broken and I can definitely see it. Has been getting high value in current meta as well, but does seem to have some level of 4mss, for whatever that is worth.

Btw stop shilling for this mon :Samurott-Hisui: it is definitely a FRAUD . . .
Crowned zamazenta is big time being used to hold back the onslaught of offensive Pokémon at its fantastic typing helps wall as a pivot. It needs wish support to make full use of that bulk because it's easy to wear down pretty fast than before. I don't think our super tanky wolf is broken and I'm sure most will agree in the long run after the shock of broken Pokémon being tanked by this thing wears off.
 
OK I was gone for a day and so much has happened. I got a few things to put out there

1. Finchinator: did i ask The2009Zapdos? <- never gonna forget that finch you DID say it don't even lie to yourself funny as hell
2. Regieleki is banned - which transitions to
3. The OU council. The day I join it is never going to occur in this world because I don't do politics. A lot of people said to stop hatin on it. You're right. Imagine you had to be in their spot. You can't just ban everything in HOME and say "that'll work cope with it". They need to take time banning all of these mons like Magearna and Chien-Pao. Just wait and don't freak out like I did. Things will change for the better

That being said
:sv/magearna:
You're next on the chopping block ya bucket of bolts
 
:Ursaluna: I do think it is broken under trick room, but trick room is definitely A: enabled by broken ass Mag and B: preying on nonsensical day 1 lazy offence teams. Even if trick room should adapt to losing the Gears that make it turn, I think it will still be more on the gimmick end of things. Outside of trick room Luna is still definitely a monster, akin to kingambit in the previous meta. All the same I think it could and should be deserving of time in the tier without the big 3 mentioned above. Luna so far seems like it heavily preys on the extreme ends of the playstyles, Hyper offence and stall, and imo having limitations placed upon those playstyles can be healthy. Going forward should Luna further restrict the building of all other playstyles as well though, I could definitely find myself supporting its ban.
I wouldn't call Ursaluna comparable to Kingambit in the pre-Home meta. Ursuluna's Facade or Headlong Rush one-shots every offensive mon in OU aside from Zamazenta the first time it comes out on the field, other Ursaluna, and Great Tusk. It trades favourably against most of the tier, and you don't need to stay in if you face something that will do more damage to you than you'd like. Ursaluna's raw power with Facade is comparable to Choice Band Melmetal's Double Iron Bash and Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar's Icicle Crash with the main difference being that Ursaluna isn't Choice-locked.
 
some more sneasler thoughts: dire claw is basically my least clicked on move. it never feels safe if theres a steel type on the other team and thats so often. honestly, feels like it plays best with tera flying acrobatics but i dont think thats exactly better than booster moon. definitely not broken
 

Scarfire

is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
I wouldn't call Ursaluna comparable to Kingambit in the pre-Home meta. Ursuluna's Facade or Headlong Rush one-shots every offensive mon in OU aside from Zamazenta the first time it comes out on the field, other Ursaluna, and Great Tusk. It trades favourably against most of the tier, and you don't need to stay in if you face something that will do more damage to you than you'd like. Ursaluna's raw power with Facade is comparable to Choice Band Melmetal's Double Iron Bash and Choice Band Darmanitan-Galar's Icicle Crash with the main difference being that Ursaluna isn't Choice-locked.
I am aware of the different buttons Luna clicks as opposed to kingambit, I moreso meant their place in the meta. Bulky, super strong threats. Require more than just a simple "here is my dedicated check i slapped on" to defeat, function as tempo ghost resists that break through fat / trade through some mons on offence. Have a lot of set freedom, but exploitable weaknesses. In Luna's case, its stabs having common immunities making its already limited turns as it burns itself down somewhat prediction based, and its defensive typing being okay at best. In Gambits case, the few sets that let it bypass its best answer in the meta, couldn't afford to get wisped by the 75 options u had in wisp users. I think both eventually reach the plateau of "this might be broken with tera". To which I hope that once we arrive at the inevitable second tera suspect, a potential tera-preview meta evens out the issue.

Last sentence doesn't really have much to do with what you said but I wanted to share some speculation for how things could go while given the opportunity to share.
 
Scream Tail stops Stored Power variants of Magearna pretty easily. If you have trouble against that, you can try using a Scream Tail balance. It can encore Magearna and stop it from getting going right from the get-go.
 
Scream Tail stops Stored Power variants of Magearna pretty easily. If you have trouble against that, you can try using a Scream Tail balance. It can encore Magearna and stop it from getting going right from the get-go.
:sv/scream tail:
Encore Disable, Wish stuff, its a good support mon. If it got Healing Wish id use it over Cresselia. But alas
 
I agree on Rage Fist, but for Last Respects, that's a big fat no- Last Respects was absolutely the problem with Houndstone and Basculegion (hence why it got banned and not the move), and it's the same case with Shed Tail (hence why it eventually got banned when Orthworm started wreaking havoc in the tier after Cyclizar's ban). In order to make a Pokemon with Last Respects actually balanced, you'd have to make it Rampardos-tier bad.
Rampardos with Last Respects, in a meta where Trick Room is the best it's ever been? You need to delve deeper into the pile of trashmons.

Maybe Wormadan.
 
In defense of the dogs

(or at least crowned since hero is a myth currently)
Oh boy, where to even begin? At the risk of sounding confrontational, I think a large majority of the problems with two good but not broken mons stem from the fact that it's day 2 of a new meta and nobody's really building that well since they wanna use like, Kleavor or something. Zama happens to be very good into the poorly-built offenses that dominate early stages of the metagame, which isn't helped by chien pao and magearna both being pretty broken and making those styles of offenses irresistable. IronPress is irritating, I get that, but there's a whole lot of pointing to its stats without really digging into zama below a surface level.

After using it I find Zama-C to be a very feast or famine Pokemon which is stopped by a lot of very good things from pre-home. the +1 defense is absolutely critical for it to really get going, as without it its bulk is good but in the context of having zero recovery it can't really afford to take any decently strong hit on the path to set up. You can alleviate it somewhat with like, grassy terrain support or even wish, but switching this thing out and back in after consuming Dauntless Shield feels really bad and robs it of a lot of its defensive utility and setup opportunities.

Most importantly, while it can get out of control vs weakened teams or the myriad of teams on low-mid ladder that are completely unprepared for it, it's actually worth noting that there's a lot of things that are relatively safe into it, that were already good before home and need few, if any, alterations to beat it. It's not like we're pulling out Wigglytuff for SWSH Ubers Shadow Horse or anything like that, a lot of very viable things beat ironpress that are just getting lost in the shuffle of a bunch of cool new things being dropped all at once. Crowned also has very noticeable 4MSS - you have two moveslots to fit Crunch, Ice Fang, Substitute, and Behemoth Bash into and it needs every single one of these moves (and occasionally a favorable tera type) to have a chance to beat something that it otherwise couldn't.

Let's go through the new good mons, as while as things that were S through B+ on the previous meta's viability rankings, and talk about all of the things Crowned needs a specific move (or tera type) to beat. This is assuming max hp max spe zama, which seems to be the most

:landorus-therian: - uninvested Ice Fang is a 4hko on defensive landorus 96% of the time, all while lando can bounce in and out if it so desires and has actual (minor) healing with leftovers. If you're not running ice fang, good luck. EQ does about 35 from lando at +2 on zama, which isn't damage you can really be affording to take. Helmet Lando also chips it even further since every move in Zama's arsenal is contact.

:zapdos: - Ice Fang 4HKOs, no other move comes close. Zap also has reliable recovery and its it on the special side, completely subverting any boosts it may have accumulated. Zama pretty much can't beat Zapdos regardless of what it runs, and every hit it tries runs the risk of static screwing it over completely.

:slowking-galar: - needs Crunch for a 3hko and if you don't have it you're unable to do much of anything to it while it gets to click glowking buttons on you with little fear. If you do have crunch, it can pivot out and heal back up, and it means you're probably missing something else.

:great-tusk: - this one's a bit complicated. Bulky tusk is a pretty solid check, especially if Zama's expended Dauntless Shield and swapped out, although it doesn't do a whole lot of damage in return. Offensive can hit it really hard on setup turns but is capable of being KO'd back by body press after multiple boosts. It's a decent soft check if nothing else but shouldn't be your only option. If you are tera fairy on zama you can set up on tusk much more easily, but making fairy your tera type makes you lose to several other things.

:iron-valiant: - if you're not running behemoth bash you can't touch valiant for any meaningful damage without several turns of boosting, and behemoth bash is generally the least useful move that you still might need. Valiant also does a lot back on the special side and can force zama out a few times, even though it, like zama, has no recovery, making it strictly an offensive check. You can Tera Steel to shore up the moonblast issue, but then you have a much harder time vs other grounds in the tier.

:dragonite: - Ice Fang is a 3hko and forces dragonite to roost, but if you're not running Ice Fang you can only 3hko it with a +6 body press, all while dnite has opportunities to boost alongside you.

:volcarona: - +3 body press is a 2hko 75% of the time, but if you've already expended your dauntless shield you're gonna need multiple turns to boost. none of zama's other coverage moves do anything of note, and each hit runs the risk of proccing flame body and ruining you on the spot. Fiery Dance is a 3hko at worst even unboosted, and you will be giving volc free turns in any situation but the absolute best for you.

:gholdengo: - you should always be running crunch imo but including this here just because you hard lose to him if you don't have it. He even has reliable recovery!

:toxapex: - sure you get psychic fangs and/or wild charge but have you seen how many different moves I've already listed? Neither of those are terribly worth it on IronPress crowned, especially wild charge. Haze means zama pretty much does nothing unless you're running like, the 6th best move for this one mon.

:hatterene: - 1v1s you unless you have behemoth bash, although if you're tera steel it'll take a really long time for it to do that.

:scream-tail: - see above.

:amoonguss: - behemoth bash and psychic fangs both can 3hko, but you will be taking helmet chip or risking a spore to do it. You can run Substitute to get around Spore, but then you're probably missing Behemoth Bash or Psychic Fangs and you two will kind of just enter a stalemate. If Zama's already tera'd into not steel for whatever reason you can also get clear smogged, which is irritating.

:dondozo: - did you forget we had 3 unaware mons? unaware also ignores the defense boosts from zama so body press is always a clean 3hko. There's nothing Zama can do here, even wild charge is a 5hko and not a good move to run overall.

:skeledirge: - Crunch 3hkos spd dirge but teraing your dirge fixes that, and since it has unaware it doesn't care about body press even if it's not immune to it. Torch Song also ruins zama - it even bypasses substitute!

:clodsire: - this guy's such a sleeper pick right now. substitute and ice fang can ease this matchup, although if clodsire goes tera water there's not much you can do. Clod can theoretically also slot yawn over toxic, which bypasses substitute and forces zama to switch out repeatedly.

:azumarill: - takes negligible damage from anything barring behemoth bash (but also doesn't do a whole lot back, so don't rely on this)

if you didn't click on that, in order to beat good ironpress resists it needs crunch, substitute, behemoth bash, ice fang, psychic fangs, and wild charge. That's six moves for two slots, and forgoing any of them means there's certain things you just will not be able to beat. Zapdos is also the perfect counter and will be very good - it's Zapdos after all. None of the Pokemon I listed are unviable, nor would they need any major moveset alterations beyond what would be considered reasonable. once the meta settles down and magearna/chien pao preferrably get banned, Zama will probably slot in nicely as something you have to account for, but not overwhelmingly so. You could theoretically run resttalk in the last two slots as well, but mono attack seems sketchy.

I get it. It's annoying. IronPress in general is a pretty silly concept (I remember a post or two from last generation about people wanting ferrothorn banned because of it...). It's got good stats, it takes some effort to kill. But it's by no means unbeatable, and it's pretty easy to stop it before it gets to that point. Even just hitting it hard enough on the setup turn and then forcing it out can be a huge detriment - this thing has no recovery and without permanent dauntless shield switching out to a teammate to help that neuters your offensive potential in a lot of ways. I think Zama probably settles down in the A ranks somewhere, something you need to account for but which can be done just by building good teams with good Pokemon anyways.

Lastly, wanting hero banned seems presumptuous. You are never going to see it because IronPress Crowned, as mentioned above, does really well into day 1 offenses. Band's probably cute though.

tldr don't shoot the dogs yet
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
In defense of the dogs

(or at least crowned since hero is a myth currently)
Oh boy, where to even begin? At the risk of sounding confrontational, I think a large majority of the problems with two good but not broken mons stem from the fact that it's day 2 of a new meta and nobody's really building that well since they wanna use like, Kleavor or something. Zama happens to be very good into the poorly-built offenses that dominate early stages of the metagame, which isn't helped by chien pao and magearna both being pretty broken and making those styles of offenses irresistable. IronPress is irritating, I get that, but there's a whole lot of pointing to its stats without really digging into zama below a surface level.

After using it I find Zama-C to be a very feast or famine Pokemon which is stopped by a lot of very good things from pre-home. the +1 defense is absolutely critical for it to really get going, as without it its bulk is good but in the context of having zero recovery it can't really afford to take any decently strong hit on the path to set up. You can alleviate it somewhat with like, grassy terrain support or even wish, but switching this thing out and back in after consuming Dauntless Shield feels really bad and robs it of a lot of its defensive utility and setup opportunities.

Most importantly, while it can get out of control vs weakened teams or the myriad of teams on low-mid ladder that are completely unprepared for it, it's actually worth noting that there's a lot of things that are relatively safe into it, that were already good before home and need few, if any, alterations to beat it. It's not like we're pulling out Wigglytuff for SWSH Ubers Shadow Horse or anything like that, a lot of very viable things beat ironpress that are just getting lost in the shuffle of a bunch of cool new things being dropped all at once. Crowned also has very noticeable 4MSS - you have two moveslots to fit Crunch, Ice Fang, Substitute, and Behemoth Bash into and it needs every single one of these moves (and occasionally a favorable tera type) to have a chance to beat something that it otherwise couldn't.

Let's go through the new good mons, as while as things that were S through B+ on the previous meta's viability rankings, and talk about all of the things Crowned needs a specific move (or tera type) to beat. This is assuming max hp max spe zama, which seems to be the most

:landorus-therian: - uninvested Ice Fang is a 4hko on defensive landorus 96% of the time, all while lando can bounce in and out if it so desires and has actual (minor) healing with leftovers. If you're not running ice fang, good luck. EQ does about 35 from lando at +2 on zama, which isn't damage you can really be affording to take. Helmet Lando also chips it even further since every move in Zama's arsenal is contact.

:zapdos: - Ice Fang 4HKOs, no other move comes close. Zap also has reliable recovery and its it on the special side, completely subverting any boosts it may have accumulated. Zama pretty much can't beat Zapdos regardless of what it runs, and every hit it tries runs the risk of static screwing it over completely.

:slowking-galar: - needs Crunch for a 3hko and if you don't have it you're unable to do much of anything to it while it gets to click glowking buttons on you with little fear. If you do have crunch, it can pivot out and heal back up, and it means you're probably missing something else.

:great-tusk: - this one's a bit complicated. Bulky tusk is a pretty solid check, especially if Zama's expended Dauntless Shield and swapped out, although it doesn't do a whole lot of damage in return. Offensive can hit it really hard on setup turns but is capable of being KO'd back by body press after multiple boosts. It's a decent soft check if nothing else but shouldn't be your only option. If you are tera fairy on zama you can set up on tusk much more easily, but making fairy your tera type makes you lose to several other things.

:iron-valiant: - if you're not running behemoth bash you can't touch valiant for any meaningful damage without several turns of boosting, and behemoth bash is generally the least useful move that you still might need. Valiant also does a lot back on the special side and can force zama out a few times, even though it, like zama, has no recovery, making it strictly an offensive check. You can Tera Steel to shore up the moonblast issue, but then you have a much harder time vs other grounds in the tier.

:dragonite: - Ice Fang is a 3hko and forces dragonite to roost, but if you're not running Ice Fang you can only 3hko it with a +6 body press, all while dnite has opportunities to boost alongside you.

:volcarona: - +3 body press is a 2hko 75% of the time, but if you've already expended your dauntless shield you're gonna need multiple turns to boost. none of zama's other coverage moves do anything of note, and each hit runs the risk of proccing flame body and ruining you on the spot. Fiery Dance is a 3hko at worst even unboosted, and you will be giving volc free turns in any situation but the absolute best for you.

:gholdengo: - you should always be running crunch imo but including this here just because you hard lose to him if you don't have it. He even has reliable recovery!

:toxapex: - sure you get psychic fangs and/or wild charge but have you seen how many different moves I've already listed? Neither of those are terribly worth it on IronPress crowned, especially wild charge. Haze means zama pretty much does nothing unless you're running like, the 6th best move for this one mon.

:hatterene: - 1v1s you unless you have behemoth bash, although if you're tera steel it'll take a really long time for it to do that.

:scream-tail: - see above.

:amoonguss: - behemoth bash and psychic fangs both can 3hko, but you will be taking helmet chip or risking a spore to do it. You can run Substitute to get around Spore, but then you're probably missing Behemoth Bash or Psychic Fangs and you two will kind of just enter a stalemate. If Zama's already tera'd into not steel for whatever reason you can also get clear smogged, which is irritating.

:dondozo: - did you forget we had 3 unaware mons? unaware also ignores the defense boosts from zama so body press is always a clean 3hko. There's nothing Zama can do here, even wild charge is a 5hko and not a good move to run overall.

:skeledirge: - Crunch 3hkos spd dirge but teraing your dirge fixes that, and since it has unaware it doesn't care about body press even if it's not immune to it. Torch Song also ruins zama - it even bypasses substitute!

:clodsire: - this guy's such a sleeper pick right now. substitute and ice fang can ease this matchup, although if clodsire goes tera water there's not much you can do. Clod can theoretically also slot yawn over toxic, which bypasses substitute and forces zama to switch out repeatedly.

:azumarill: - takes negligible damage from anything barring behemoth bash (but also doesn't do a whole lot back, so don't rely on this)

if you didn't click on that, in order to beat good ironpress resists it needs crunch, substitute, behemoth bash, ice fang, psychic fangs, and wild charge. That's six moves for two slots, and forgoing any of them means there's certain things you just will not be able to beat. Zapdos is also the perfect counter and will be very good - it's Zapdos after all. None of the Pokemon I listed are unviable, nor would they need any major moveset alterations beyond what would be considered reasonable. once the meta settles down and magearna/chien pao preferrably get banned, Zama will probably slot in nicely as something you have to account for, but not overwhelmingly so. You could theoretically run resttalk in the last two slots as well, but mono attack seems sketchy.

I get it. It's annoying. IronPress in general is a pretty silly concept (I remember a post or two from last generation about people wanting ferrothorn banned because of it...). It's got good stats, it takes some effort to kill. But it's by no means unbeatable, and it's pretty easy to stop it before it gets to that point. Even just hitting it hard enough on the setup turn and then forcing it out can be a huge detriment - this thing has no recovery and without permanent dauntless shield switching out to a teammate to help that neuters your offensive potential in a lot of ways. I think Zama probably settles down in the A ranks somewhere, something you need to account for but which can be done just by building good teams with good Pokemon anyways.

Lastly, wanting hero banned seems presumptuous. You are never going to see it because IronPress Crowned, as mentioned above, does really well into day 1 offenses. Band's probably cute though.

tldr don't shoot the dogs yet
Summed up way better than I could. The dogs are a symptom of the meta: not the cause. Magearna and to a lesser extent Chien Pao are pushing the meta towards HO. The meta also is very unrefined given how much people want to mess around with the new toys.
 
In defense of the dogs

(or at least crowned since hero is a myth currently)

if you didn't click on that, in order to beat good ironpress resists it needs crunch, substitute, behemoth bash, ice fang, psychic fangs, and wild charge. That's six moves for two slots, and forgoing any of them means there's certain things you just will not be able to beat. Zapdos is also the perfect counter and will be very good - it's Zapdos after all. None of the Pokemon I listed are unviable, nor would they need any major moveset alterations beyond what would be considered reasonable. once the meta settles down and magearna/chien pao preferrably get banned, Zama will probably slot in nicely as something you have to account for, but not overwhelmingly so. You could theoretically run resttalk in the last two slots as well, but mono attack seems sketchy.
Either Zama can just run rest and will, in fact, beat Zapdos with iron defense + body press alone. Roost only has 8 PP and a +6 body press (with no defense investment) will do ~50% to a max def/max HP Zapdos. So much for your perfect counter.

Unaware mons and certain fairies (Hatterene most notably) are the only hard stops to the Zamas.
 
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Either Zama can just run rest and will, in fact, beat Zapdos with iron defense + body press alone. Roost only has 8 PP and a +6 body press (with no defense investment) will do ~50% to a max def/max HP Zapdos. So much for your perfect counter.

Unaware mons and certain fairies (Hatterene most notably) are the only hard stops to the Zamas.
Bulky Volcarona is maybe a better check to ID Body Zama and Zama-C because it can QD once and start attacking to force the Zama user to attack back and risk getting burned while Volc does damage with Fiery dance. Zapdos 2HKOes regular Zama, but relying on Hurricane to hit twice in a row is only something a fool would do. However, Static could come in the clutch to help Zapdos win that matchup.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Either Zama can just run rest and will, in fact, beat Zapdos with iron defense + body press alone. Roost only has 8 PP and a +6 body press (with no defense investment) will do ~50% to a max def/max HP Zapdos. So much for your perfect counter.

Unaware mons and certain fairies (Hatterene most notably) are the only hard stops to the Zamas.
ID BP already has really bad 4MSS. You want sub to avoid status without losing a ton of tempo. You want crunch for ghosts. You want Behemoth Bash for fairies. You want ice gang for grounds like Lando T or Tusk. Rest loses you so much tempo since clerics are extremely rare and two turns of sleep can be game losing. Trying to fit rest in to in theory win a few mus is just going to lower your wr into the field.
 
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