Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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news flash ITS STILL A GOOD MOVE FOR JANITERING
1. No it's not.
2: Lack of Waterium Z, the reason nerfed BB Greninja is still a thing in NatDex, means Greninja has a significantly harder time getting Battle Bond up in general.

Sad as it is to say, Greninja does not have a place in OU. Protean with a heavy nerf and power creep just isn't what it once was, and Battle Bond is worse because it's so micromanage-y and limits when you can use Greninja rather than giving you opportunities to use it.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
So I thought Hoopa-U would be broken for sure this gen since it's offensive spread is basically Diet Chi-Yu and Pursuit is gone, but so far I almost never see it compared to other darks like Samurott-H. Has any consensus formed around it or nah?
Magearna exists right now. Any dark type that isnt somehow immune or greatly resists fairies is being Shin Kikoho'd into oblivion
 
So I thought Hoopa-U would be broken for sure this gen since it's offensive spread is basically Diet Chi-Yu and Pursuit is gone, but so far I almost never see it compared to other darks like Samurott-H. Has any consensus formed around it or nah?
It's a glass canon and it's very difficult to have it in against a mon that can't KO it. The meta being HO-oriented is also not helping.
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
Honestly, from my experience Zamazenta Hero is fine. ID BP from it feels manageable for offense and fat teams have solid built in answers. In practice I find it’s banded set the spookiest since it’s a fat beatstick with an amazing speed tier. It’s saved me plenty of times against threats like Chien Pao for example. It feels manageable enough for offense especially with Lando and Tusk in the tier.

Zamazenta C actually is good at doing IDBP due to its better stats for the job and that steel type. It’s not too bad in my opinion and I wouldn’t even say it’s in the three scariest things in the meta rn. I can easily see it getting suspected down the line, but right now I think it’s benefitting more from the meta we are seeing rn. Offense is super strong in its different flavors, and Zama C is great into those teams. It feels like a symptom of the meta rather than the cause of what is happening. Fast offensive teams are still very strong despite how scary Zama C is to them.

Sneasler is dumb. It’s just a frustrating mon to deal with due to the inherent rng it brings to games. Getting hit by a Dire Claw is tilting and having games decided by what status it rolls is dumb. Idk if it’s quickban worthy but it’s certainly a toxic mon to play against. Thankfully lando and tusk feel solid so that helps hold back the weasel.

Ursaluna is terrifying but I think it’s the biggest winner of the current meta trends. Speaking of which…

Magearna is the problem Pokémon in the meta right now. Its presence in the tier is artificially making every other scary mon on the docket more of a problem. Ursaluna TR would not be nearly as scary if there wasn’t OTR Magearna as a partner. Fat teams struggle to deal with Mag, either through it’s stored power sets helping it muscle past some fat teams or due to specs trick crippling their Magearna check. Magearna makes fast teams more prevalent in the meta. The Zamas feast on offensive metas because they struggle more with fat teams. The lack of balance is great for Sneasler too. Even Chien Pao benefits from a faster meta since it makes it harder to switch into it. Pretty much every single radar candidate is doing better due to the meta Magearna forces to exist.

Zamazenta, Ursaluna, Sneasler, Chien Pao, they all would be a little spooky even after a Magearna ban. But Magearnas presence makes it impossible to deal with all of them. It’s harder to use fat teams into offense because of how strong Mag is right now into them. Magearna by being in the tier creates the perfect environment for all these threats to thrive. Trick room would be much worse without it, as it loses a better meta and one of the best setters. The Zamas and Sneasler would not be as scary for teams to deal with if fatties were around to make their playstyle less effective. I genuinely think if we ban Magearna, the meta would begin to heal and we could avoid more collateral damage.
 
Rage Fist and Last Respects are only as uncompetitive as the mons that use them. Primeape is not broken with Rage Fist.
I agree on Rage Fist, but for Last Respects, that's a big fat no- Last Respects was absolutely the problem with Houndstone and Basculegion (hence why it got banned and not the 'mons), and it's the same case with Shed Tail (hence why it eventually got banned when Orthworm started wreaking havoc in the tier after Cyclizar's ban). In order to make a Pokemon with Last Respects actually balanced, you'd have to make it Rampardos-tier bad.
 
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ok so here's the thing: you genuinely cannot account for regieleki ice tera blast in the team builder. it's just too fast. like I'm running scarf enam on HO and the moment people start maxing speed on leki that stops working and I have to think of something else.
HO is naturally gonna struggle with leki. You have to run a special wall to stop it. Clodsire, Slowking G, Blissey all limit leki.
 
I agree on Rage Fist, but for Last Respects, that's a big fat no- Last Respects was absolutely the problem with Houndstone and Basculegion. In order to make a Pokemon with Last Respects actually balanced, you'd have to make it Rampardos-tier bad.
Smeargle will return on the dlcs but just like Batton pass isn't broken on very single user, most likely it wouldn't get unbanned because Smeargle since most of the user are good with it.
 

NoobHereWaddup

Tri Attack will freeze
is a Tiering Contributor
Glad regieleki is gone, it was tiring having to constantly predict when it was going to tera or having to hope your regieleki wins the speed tie otherwise the opponent had a fast mon that you are almost never gonna be able to attack. Unfortunately regieleki was also the only spinner in my teams so now i just lose to hazard spam
On the other hand tho
:zamazenta: oh god the iron defense + body press sets are gonna be even better now that theres no regieleki to slowly rack up damage with volt switch, now only dragapult can outspeed the dog so definitely on a good spot rn.
:samurott-hisui: best rapid spinner in the tier is gone so he wins. jk. Seriously tho samurott-h now has less to worry about when spamming ceaseless edge so thats a win for it.
:sneasler: i honestly have barely seen this mon but i assume it's a massive winner from the regieleki ban, one less pokemon that it can't just brainlessly click u-turn/dire claw without worrying about getting outsped.

Not related to regieleki whatsoever:
:ceruledge: I've experimented with this a bit and i feel like the standard bulk up set is kinda good rn. With its natural fire/ghost typing it resists STABs from magearna and sneasler and any damage done to ceruledge can be recovered with bitter blade, shadow sneak is also useful against low hp basculegion.
Tera bug is as good as always giving it the capabilities to deal with heatran, enamorus(?), tusk, and maybe others i haven't faced yet.
I haven't actually used this so this is more in theory, but tera grass could work too. still is good against heatran and tusk while also being better than tera bug against arcanine-h and urshifu-r.
Alternatively, if you feel its not doing much, you can also switch it into an ursaluna hoping it clicks facade.
Ceruledge definitely isn't extremly good but its decent against some popular pokemon rn.
 
i honestly have barely seen this mon but i assume it's a massive winner from the regieleki ban, one less pokemon that it can't just brainlessly click u-turn/dire claw without worrying about getting outsped.
It actually hurts Sneasler because Leki was a great teamate forcing switches to bring Sneasler safely with volt switch.
 
One thing I've been theorycrafting about is the sheer threat IronPress ZamaC poses in an offensive core alongside Specs Walking Wake. Wake just obliterates the Ghost-types that Zama cannot run coverage to beat (which basically just amounts to Gholdengo, when you think about it, it can run coverage to splatter the other relevant ghosts), while Zama-C outspeeds and sits on anything that can threaten Walking Wake by outspeeding them and either sitting on them or blowing them to smithereens. It will basically always come in safely due to its great typing and incredible bulk- even Roaring Moon can't OHKO with a Protosynthesis-boosted Earthquake (and runs the risk of dying to an unboosted Body Press- and if ZamaC has a +1 from Dauntless Shield, it will always OHKO Roaring Moon while only leaving Roaring Moon with a chance to 2HKO- even Stealth Rock doesn't guarantee it due to ZamaC's quad resistance), and because Zamazenta-Crowned is the third-fastest thing in the metagame (Tied with Meloetta-Pirouette and only beaten by Zamazenta-Hero and Dragapult), revenge-killing it is extremely difficult even when you don't take into account its titanic bulk.
 
since Garganacl got brought up in.. uh... whatever happened a few pages back, how well has it been handling in the current meta? Feels like I haven't seen it nearly as much as preHOME, but it's the second day of a new, much more offensive meta so that kinda makes sense
 
I agree on Rage Fist, but for Last Respects, that's a big fat no- Last Respects was absolutely the problem with Houndstone and Basculegion (hence why it got banned and not the move), and it's the same case with Shed Tail (hence why it eventually got banned when Orthworm started wreaking havoc in the tier after Cyclizar's ban). In order to make a Pokemon with Last Respects actually balanced, you'd have to make it Rampardos-tier bad.
It all depends on the mons that have it. As your last sentence suggests, if a sufficiently bad mon existed with Last Respects, it could be legal. It's why Shadow Tag is banned in SS Ubers but Arena Trap Dugtrio is legal even though the only difference is that Arena Trap can't trap flyers. Dugtrio is C- tier in Ubers.
 
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Glad regieleki is gone, it was tiring having to constantly predict when it was going to tera or having to hope your regieleki wins the speed tie otherwise the opponent had a fast mon that you are almost never gonna be able to attack. Unfortunately regieleki was also the only spinner in my teams so now i just lose to hazard spam
On the other hand tho
:zamazenta: oh god the iron defense + body press sets are gonna be even better now that theres no regieleki to slowly rack up damage with volt switch, now only dragapult can outspeed the dog so definitely on a good spot rn.
:samurott-hisui: best rapid spinner in the tier is gone so he wins. jk. Seriously tho samurott-h now has less to worry about when spamming ceaseless edge so thats a win for it.
:sneasler: i honestly have barely seen this mon but i assume it's a massive winner from the regieleki ban, one less pokemon that it can't just brainlessly click u-turn/dire claw without worrying about getting outsped.

Not related to regieleki whatsoever:
:ceruledge: I've experimented with this a bit and i feel like the standard bulk up set is kinda good rn. With its natural fire/ghost typing it resists STABs from magearna and sneasler and any damage done to ceruledge can be recovered with bitter blade, shadow sneak is also useful against low hp basculegion.
Tera bug is as good as always giving it the capabilities to deal with heatran, enamorus(?), tusk, and maybe others i haven't faced yet.
I haven't actually used this so this is more in theory, but tera grass could work too. still is good against heatran and tusk while also being better than tera bug against arcanine-h and urshifu-r.
Alternatively, if you feel its not doing much, you can also switch it into an ursaluna hoping it clicks facade.
Ceruledge definitely isn't extremly good but its decent against some popular pokemon rn.
I'm not sure if Samurott benefits all that much. Tera Dark Black Glasses Sucker Punch is a clean OHKO, tho Eleki could play around it with clever switches, Sub, Espeed, etc. Eleki was kinda good at limiting some of Samurott's checks like Urshifu-Rs too.
 

Scarfire

is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
I'm no council member so my opinion means less than nothing, nonetheless the point of these threads is for any idiot like me to share what he's thinking. Wanted to give my two cents on what should be quickbanned soon and what could be given time to develop among the mons being discussed.

:Magearna: :Zamazenta-Crowned: :Chien-Pao: I think explanations on why these 3 are very broken has been done to death now. I don't see a healthy future for these pokemon. Mage can be teched to beat just about anything it seems, forcing Zama-C out is one of the most aggravating and painful tasks ever, and Chien is only here because these 2 manage to successful employ my favourite metagame strategy called broken-check-broken. Would be glad to see em go.

The other 4 that have been discussed I'll tackle separately, starting with:

:Ursaluna: I do think it is broken under trick room, but trick room is definitely A: enabled by broken ass Mag and B: preying on nonsensical day 1 lazy offence teams. Even if trick room should adapt to losing the Gears that make it turn, I think it will still be more on the gimmick end of things. Outside of trick room Luna is still definitely a monster, akin to kingambit in the previous meta. All the same I think it could and should be deserving of time in the tier without the big 3 mentioned above. Luna so far seems like it heavily preys on the extreme ends of the playstyles, Hyper offence and stall, and imo having limitations placed upon those playstyles can be healthy. Going forward should Luna further restrict the building of all other playstyles as well though, I could definitely find myself supporting its ban.

:Zamazenta: On the fence about this, ID sets on it dont hit nearly the same as his Father's do, as lacking steel typing really sucks. Being faster is cool and all but the only speed tier this one is taking over Crowned is Chien-Pao, which ideally is banned regardless so I don't think this benefit matters much. It is also weak as piss, but it is a good tera abuser and it having more set options definitely sets it apart, but no individual set has felt any bit as impressive as I would hope. Also feels hard to actively fit on teams. I think this too, just like Luna, might be preying on lazy early offences, but this prediction I could also see being wrong in the future, and if so, would support a suspect/ban.

:Sneasler: I think this mon will fall off overtime, not just because haha run covert cloak but because I do not think Poison is as spammable of a stab as you'd hope, so forcing something out with it safely while being able to click dire claw isn't often a free situation, and more often than not a hard read (which has a 50% chance to amount to nothing, and a 50% chance to be annoying) and spending games into BO/Balance fishing for poisons or sleeps and wittling down whatever tusk or lando or chomp you load into just seems like a hunk of shit. And then yeah, ofc, there is still covert cloak poisons to be looked into the future, but this point I do not think matters much with the mon options we have at hand.

I thought i would throw in real quick; Physdef Shuca Gholdengo has been smth ive considered cooking up for this that also covers Luna, DD Dnite, Bax, Tusk, and Zamazenta. Seems like a solid set for the potential future, worth trying out (Do not know specifics of what moves or teras to run, that is customization I leave up to you)

Lastly :Urshifu: genuinely don't know what to say on this one. Many seem to think it will be a future broken and I can definitely see it. Has been getting high value in current meta as well, but does seem to have some level of 4mss, for whatever that is worth.

Btw stop shilling for this mon :Samurott-Hisui: it is definitely a FRAUD . . .
 
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