Just wondering why grasspon is so high on that list, even higher then cornerstone?snip
Just wondering why grasspon is so high on that list, even higher then cornerstone?snip
This team has been running all over SPL:Just wondering why grasspon is so high on that list, even higher then cornerstone?
I don't think these are strictly incompatible ideas. Great Tusk is legitimately the best Spinner I think we've ever had, at least when evaluating OUs relative to each other; simultaneously, the increased Hazard distribution and very limited options BESIDES Tusk does mean that hazards are still very difficult to keep off the field overall (different than how easy they are to deal with necessarily, since HDB exist for example).Absolutely superb write-up, I adore when people go all-in on their thoughts and really break down where they're putting stuff in the metagame, but I've got a super stupid nitpick I want to ask.
For Great Tusk, you name it as the rightfully best hazard remover available in the game right now, almost inarguably the best Spinner we've ever had. But in Iron Moth's 30th spot write-up, you say "keeping rocks off has never been harder". What's up? I feel like there's been a back-and-forth for the last 16 months of "Great Tusk is the best spinner we've ever had!" and "Yeah, but hazard removal has still never been worse."
Yeah I realized this inconsistency writting and should’ve been more specific, my bad. Offense particularly struggles with consistent removal. Iron Treads, Deoxys-S, and Ribombee are mons that pose a real nuisance to Tusk attempting to switch in but also Pult, Glimm, Gholden, and Serp for example discourage aggressive Tusk leads.Absolutely superb write-up, I adore when people go all-in on their thoughts and really break down where they're putting stuff in the metagame, but I've got a super stupid nitpick I want to ask.
For Great Tusk, you name it as the rightfully best hazard remover available in the game right now, almost inarguably the best Spinner we've ever had. But in Iron Moth's 30th spot write-up, you say "keeping rocks off has never been harder". What's up? I feel like there's been a back-and-forth for the last 16 months of "Great Tusk is the best spinner we've ever had!" and "Yeah, but hazard removal has still never been worse."
Maybe getting a little off-track for the VR thread, I do still feel like conceptually Gholdengo is an extremely imbalanced presence, it shouldn't get all three of completely block hazard removal/have an excellent defensive profile between typing and BST/have reliable recovery. Is that just the difficulty of fitting Great Tusk on every team? Because as the #2 most viable Pokemon in the metagame I feel like any hazard-weak mons that don't already run Boots has their viability sharply increased if Great Tusk Spins that consistently.
Dammit this isn't good for the viability of Meow. Grasspon is not allowed to be better!This team has been running all over SPL:
We also saw a cool application of it here in lax vs mncmt: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751881 and here in Rubyblood vs Trosko: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751407
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-752549 -- JJ vs Sav
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-752822 -- Punnyvs xavgb
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-751283 -- Separation vs Raptor
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-749895 - Acr1 vs Finch
- https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-748405 - Punny vs mncmt
It has a ton of utility w/ Encore/Knock and being able to boost speed w/ Tera whil also actually being able to use boots is huge.
I do agree on the torn drop but probably just to B because it does technically have a use case as a mon that can regularly threaten knocks, thanks to being usable offensively unlike cyclizar which just doesn't have the stats. Knock + Regen is a strong niche remember which is why it is ranked decently high, especially since it does technically have the stats to use it. Bolt and wellspring are rough for it though as bolt is just impossible to knock without being sacked even with and Wellspring just absorbs knock. I feel as if B is fitting since it technically is unique enough as a knock Regen user with good enough stats. Also Glowking doesn't necessarily sit on it because it does have to worry about knock off and taunt, and torn can just knock and get out with U-Turn. I think a drop to B is fine for it in all honesty since it technically has some noteworthy traits still, even if it's overlooked and not always optimal, also Torn just cannot function as well with the combo of wellspring and raging bolt in the meta as well as Kyurem, all of which are broken and either absorb knock or just don't allow it to pivot and remove items. Knock + Regen was the reason it has been B+ rank for the longest time for a reason, since it is unique amongst the knock off users to have that combo and a usable offensive stat, do think it should drop to B since things are a bit too hostile for it to do its job as well, definitely nowhere near as bad as it was in predlc though with no knock though. B feels about the right place to drop for it at the moment. I do think the utility in knock + Regen and good offensive stats and speed are enough to justify it only dropping one subrank considering knock + Regen is something unique and valuable it offers even if it doesn't see a whole lot of use.A -> B+/B
I'm not sold on Deo-S. LO all-out attacker sets struggle to deal any real damage because of Deo-S' meager 95/95 offenses, especially since the tier is filled with bulky monstrosities like gouging fire, raging fire, dengo, etc. It's also immensely frail with a very bad typing so it doesn't offer any defensive utility as opposed to something like zama or pult which are also very fast while sporting better typings and bulk. As a hazards lead it gets the job done but imo that quality alone does not warrant such a high spot on the ranking, especially since Iron Treads or Hatterene teams can still stop it, unlike something like Samu-H lead. Sure it's very fast, but it's not even the fastest anymore because of booster mons. B rank at best imo, but maybe there's something there I'm not seeing.
B+ -> C+/C
This one I really don't understand. Torn has seen virtually no usage this gen after predlc meta. Losing defog really hurts, and a slightly better Hurricane in Bleakwind Storm does not save it. The introduction of Raging Bolt and the return of Weavile does not favor this guy at all either, and Slowking-G sits on it all day. It's once great speed tier is now just kinda good. It's a decent check to Rillaboom and Serperior but so is Zapdos and he's a much better pivot imo. Another argument would be that this outspeeds and KOs Waterpon but that's not even necessarily true because of the free spdef boost it gets on tera. Also I know popularity is generally not an argument but seriously has anyone actually seen Torn-T this gen ? Because I definitely haven't.
B- -> C
Despite it's brief usage in SPL, I don't think comfey is that guy. It gets stopped dead in its track by mons like heatran and loses badly to volcarona. Honestly I don't have much to say about this one other than it's pretty gimmicky and unreliable IMO. I might be wrong about this because I haven't seen it or played it much in this gen, but from past gens' experience I don't think this should be so high on the VR.
C+ -> D/UR
What niche does kingdra have on rain over something like Basculegion-F ? I'm not even sure this deserves to be ranked.
D -> UR
What does this even do now that spore has been banned? Sticky web + spore was probably the only relevant niche this had in OU.
UR -> C/C+
Overqwil @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water / Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Crunch
- Gunk Shot
- Liquidation
With the advent of Waterpon and Raging Bolt, having the option to run a swift swimmer that is not a mono-water type is extremely welcome for rain players. Overqwil's unique Dark/Poison typing gives rain some much needed defensive utility, as it resists sucker and grassy glide and is not weak to thunderclap. Offensively, this means that you can threatens mons like Waterpon and Alomomola that solidly check Barraskewda, thus giving it very good synnergy with the most commonly used rain sweeper. It also means you very easily come in on glowking clicking sludge bomb or future sight and set up on it. Adamant variants hit incredibly hard, getting a clean OHKO on roaring moon with Gunk Shot even unboosted, while jolly hits 590 in rain, outspeeding the entire tier including booster mons. Down below are some more relevant calcs:
vs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit in Rain: 311-367 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Liquidation vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Overqwil: 153-181 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Overqwil: 67-79 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
(if gambit comes in on Boosted Qwil, you should always beat it regardless of it being defensive or offensive)
252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 341-402 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 359-424 (113.9 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 437-515 (137.8 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 433-511 (123.3 - 145.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Liquidation vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor in Rain: 450-530 (127.8 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Water Gliscor: 317-374 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 595-702 (197.6 - 233.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring: 298-351 (99 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Overqwil: 186-220 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Overqwil: 241-285 (77.4 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 538-633 (132.1 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Overqwil in Grassy Terrain: 97-115 (31.1 - 36.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 426-503 (79.7 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I personally have used Overqwil quite a lot lately on 1700ish ladder (albeit as part of a goofy wugtrio team, but there's no reason it wouldn't work similarly well on a more serious rain team). Here are some replays featuring it's capabilities:
Replay 1 - Overqwil sweeps after setting up on glowking (I gunk shotted the tusk and the pult because I expected both to tera on crunch/liquidation respectively, but it didn't matter because barra was always gonna clean up at that point)
Replay 2 - Here Overqwil allows me to win against what is probably the most anti rain team I have ever seen by getting rid of all the mons that Barra struggles against.
Replay 3 - Overqwil tanks fiery dance from moth and ohkoes it back, allowing me to claim victory in the end (tbh this game is kinda haxxy, sorry to my opponent lol)
Replay 4 - Against stall, overqwil easily finds an opportunity to set up and then punches holes through my opponent's team (especially dozo which can be very annoying for rain), allowing barraskewda to clean up after.
Replay 5 - Exploiting banded rilla, Overqwil sweeps from turn 2.
Replay 6 - After setting up on deo-S, Overqwil immediately forces tera from my opponent which puts me in a very good position, leading to a win.
In conclusion I really think this mon is slept on. At the very least it's DEFINITELY way better than Kingdra. Please either rank this or unrank kingdra (or both, ideally).
Thanks for reading !
Higher bulk, better defensive typing and both Draco Meter and Tera Hurricane hit harder than Shadow Ball. So, while not opposed to drop it, UR is way too harsh, this Mon will always have a niche, even in Gen 12.C+ -> D/UR
What niche does kingdra have on rain over something like Basculegion-F ? I'm not even sure this deserves to be ranked.
Nah. While it hasn't been the most common mon in SPL as it isn't the EASIEST to build with, it's had a pretty good showing overall. Its offensive sets are great into offense because of their general frailty and its coverage, and lead sets are functional (Treads is slowly declining as it isn't nearly as useful on other playstyles as it was on rain), and they don't even have to be strictly hazard setting leads. They can flex between setting a hazard and spreading early game damage, and it can freely invest in stats how it chooses as a lead because it is so fast, rarely needing speed investment. Also mentioning booster mons is sorta silly given that only Valiant and Moon are relevant mons that outspeed it with BE (Boulder suck and is falling off hard) while we have a shortage of good scarfers. And BE is one time use so it doesn't guarantee they'll be faster than it the whole game. This last bit is more anecdotal, but it can still outrun everything with just a spd+ nature and no investment, letting it spec into both offenses if desired. You could argue for a tiny drop to A- just because it isn't the easiest to fit, but that's really it. And I wouldn't even suggest a drop personally.A -> B+/B
I'm not sold on Deo-S. LO all-out attacker sets struggle to deal any real damage because of Deo-S' meager 95/95 offenses, especially since the tier is filled with bulky monstrosities like gouging fire, raging fire, dengo, etc. It's also immensely frail with a very bad typing so it doesn't offer any defensive utility as opposed to something like zama or pult which are also very fast while sporting better typings and bulk. As a hazards lead it gets the job done but imo that quality alone does not warrant such a high spot on the ranking, especially since Iron Treads or Hatterene teams can still stop it, unlike something like Samu-H lead. Sure it's very fast, but it's not even the fastest anymore because of booster mons. B rank at best imo, but maybe there's something there I'm not seeing.
Lets gooo! The last post always wins, I guess.D to C
Rotom-Wash has been renewed a bit as a nice defensive pivot with good resistances, status, and solid resilience into Pokemon like Landorus-T. It’s seen some SPL success.Why did Rotom Wash rise? It's an alright mon, but it doesn't have reliable recovery to wall things it wants to.
Why did Moltres Galar rise? Not that it's a bad mon, but it seems rather gimmicky as a setup sweeper and not reliable as a defensive mon due to lacking roost.
Why did Quaquaval drop? I know its not the best, but it does have rapid spin, which is valuable in OU. Plus, being able to threaten most spikers/stealth rockers gives it a valuable niche. Combine that with sweeping potential and niche stuff like roost and encore, and it sounds like a C rank mon.
Why did Heatran drop? I need to know why my precious boi is suffering. It still seems to do the same things it did before.
Hydreigon was suggested by viivian so I’ll let her answer this one.Empoleon is finally gone from the VR! Rejoice!
What's up with Hydreigon rising though? And Tyranitar?
Dondozo has some extremely important qualities for fat structures thanks to its insane physical bulk and Unaware, making it a nice win condition into offense while making it difficult for nearly all physical oriented Pokemon to break past consistently. With bulkier structures becoming more common lately and it being a fixture on nearly all of them, it’s natural for it to rise to the A ranks to reflect thatWhy did dondozo rise?