you could also Focus Blast the Ttar. LOL an "Espeon" using Focus Blast! I still dont understand why Espeon cant learn it in the first place since many other psychics can.
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Zoroark
- Thread starter jumpluff
- Start date
To expand on my earlier post, for the Choice Specs set I'd probably go with:
Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast / Extrasensory
(just gonna write down my thought process here)
Regardless of whether you go with Focus Blast or Extrasensory, you're hitting 11/17 types super-effective which is pretty awesome when you consider 120 SpA and Illusion.
Focus Blast OHKO's Heatran and Tyranitar (although Grass Knot deals about 70% to 252/0 'Tar) but Extrasensory deals with bulky Fighting types looking to absorb your Dark Pulse and won't let you down as often as FB.
The reason I love this set (and Zoroark in general...) so much is Illusion. The best Illusion partner is going to be a Pokemon whose common switch-ins allow you to spam Dark Pulse. Dark Pulse is resisted by Steel, Dark and Fighting (and, for all intents and purposes, Blissey). Pick a Pokemon who those Pokemon would never dream of switching into and, provided the opponent doesn't see through the Illusion, you'll be able to get off a powerful attack on a vulnerable target. Steel, Dark and Blissey are weak to Fighting types and, in general, opposing Fighting types don't have the stomach defensively to switch into their kindred so a Fighting Pokemon is an ideal partner in that regard. However, Fighting Pokemon resist Stealth Rock and Zoroark doesn't so an observant opponent won't fall for the Illusion.
The only Fighting Pokemon that are neutral to Stealth Rock are Heracross, Blaziken and Infernape. Not only do they assist Zoroark offensively but they also compliment him defensively. Zoroark only has two weakesses: Fighting and Bug. Heracross resists Fighting whereas Blaziken/Infernape resist Bug. Unfortunatley, Heracross is likely to be met by Skarmory (and he's unlikely to be a great Pokemon in BW anyway) and Blaziken/Infernape lure in Bulky Waters who will usually have the stomach to take a boosted Dark Pulse (think Suicune, Vaporeon etc) so your great surprise won't yield the rewards it deserves.
So really, we're looking for a Pokemon who:
- Deters Steel/Dark/Fighting types and Blissey from switching in
- Is neutral to Stealth Rock, takes damage from Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm and Hail.
- Generally lures in Pokemon with low SpD
- Is a good Pokemon in general
- If it compliments Zoroark defensively then that's ideal but it isn't vital.
That, imo, would be the ideal partner for Choice Specs Zoroark. But does such a Pokemon exist? What do you guys think?
Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast / Extrasensory
(just gonna write down my thought process here)
Regardless of whether you go with Focus Blast or Extrasensory, you're hitting 11/17 types super-effective which is pretty awesome when you consider 120 SpA and Illusion.
Focus Blast OHKO's Heatran and Tyranitar (although Grass Knot deals about 70% to 252/0 'Tar) but Extrasensory deals with bulky Fighting types looking to absorb your Dark Pulse and won't let you down as often as FB.
The reason I love this set (and Zoroark in general...) so much is Illusion. The best Illusion partner is going to be a Pokemon whose common switch-ins allow you to spam Dark Pulse. Dark Pulse is resisted by Steel, Dark and Fighting (and, for all intents and purposes, Blissey). Pick a Pokemon who those Pokemon would never dream of switching into and, provided the opponent doesn't see through the Illusion, you'll be able to get off a powerful attack on a vulnerable target. Steel, Dark and Blissey are weak to Fighting types and, in general, opposing Fighting types don't have the stomach defensively to switch into their kindred so a Fighting Pokemon is an ideal partner in that regard. However, Fighting Pokemon resist Stealth Rock and Zoroark doesn't so an observant opponent won't fall for the Illusion.
The only Fighting Pokemon that are neutral to Stealth Rock are Heracross, Blaziken and Infernape. Not only do they assist Zoroark offensively but they also compliment him defensively. Zoroark only has two weakesses: Fighting and Bug. Heracross resists Fighting whereas Blaziken/Infernape resist Bug. Unfortunatley, Heracross is likely to be met by Skarmory (and he's unlikely to be a great Pokemon in BW anyway) and Blaziken/Infernape lure in Bulky Waters who will usually have the stomach to take a boosted Dark Pulse (think Suicune, Vaporeon etc) so your great surprise won't yield the rewards it deserves.
So really, we're looking for a Pokemon who:
- Deters Steel/Dark/Fighting types and Blissey from switching in
- Is neutral to Stealth Rock, takes damage from Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Sandstorm and Hail.
- Generally lures in Pokemon with low SpD
- Is a good Pokemon in general
- If it compliments Zoroark defensively then that's ideal but it isn't vital.
That, imo, would be the ideal partner for Choice Specs Zoroark. But does such a Pokemon exist? What do you guys think?
The problem with your "This will allow your opponent to predict better earlier in the game" theory is that a good trainer can use this prediction against them. Lets say your opponent find out you have a Swampert on your team cuz ur illusion wears off. He may start to try to force you to switch to Swampert whenever he threatens you with an electric move, but then instead will uses a grass move instead in hopes of KOing Swampert. BUT you can simply predict that he was gonna predict that you were gonna switch to Swampert and simply take the hit from said grass attack and KO the opponent.
Or in a shorter form: Illusion creates paranoia in your opponent's thought process. Knowing the enemy's team is a curse...you start worrying that they may switch to another pokemon and you start choosing moves hoping to ohko the possible switch ins. Being oblivious to their team means you don't have to worry about what they have but what they MIGHT have.
@ Lee. The best thing is still probaly Infernape. he draws in so many dark weakeness:
Latias
Starmie
Fire/Ghost candle
Bulky Water/Ghost
Gengar
They have similar movesets, like you could run Sub/Nasty plot two moves Infernape can do. Nasty Plot really confuses the opponent because its a common move that an Infernape might do. Nasty plot on the switch out then, when the opponent sends in the counter, they think they have you and you get a free kill. this will help your actual Infernape to sweep in the future! That would help with the bulky waters like, Vappy, Gyra, Pert, and Cune. To tell you the truth, I think the Zoroark/Infernape combo will prove to be a very deadly force if played correctly
Latias
Starmie
Fire/Ghost candle
Bulky Water/Ghost
Gengar
They have similar movesets, like you could run Sub/Nasty plot two moves Infernape can do. Nasty Plot really confuses the opponent because its a common move that an Infernape might do. Nasty plot on the switch out then, when the opponent sends in the counter, they think they have you and you get a free kill. this will help your actual Infernape to sweep in the future! That would help with the bulky waters like, Vappy, Gyra, Pert, and Cune. To tell you the truth, I think the Zoroark/Infernape combo will prove to be a very deadly force if played correctly
Ononokusu (Axe-face Dragon) seems like an excellent partner for Zoroark. If you can lure in that defensive Steel-type and roast it with a Specs Flamethrower, you've eliminated Ono's counter, and if their counter is gone, getting a Swords Dance/DD up pretty much means game.
Infernape's another okay-ish one. You'd be luring in plenty of Bulky Waters, but I'm sure they don't like taking Specs Dark Pulses forever. Killing Chanderaa would be amazing, but that's wishful theorymon. If I were to use Infernape with Zoro, I'd almost suggest using NP Zoro over SpecsZoro mostly because NP Ape isn't horrendously uncommon and using Nasty Plot wouldn't give the disguise away.
Infernape's another okay-ish one. You'd be luring in plenty of Bulky Waters, but I'm sure they don't like taking Specs Dark Pulses forever. Killing Chanderaa would be amazing, but that's wishful theorymon. If I were to use Infernape with Zoro, I'd almost suggest using NP Zoro over SpecsZoro mostly because NP Ape isn't horrendously uncommon and using Nasty Plot wouldn't give the disguise away.
Swampert still walls onokusu, and will retaliate with ice beam.
Swampert does not "wall" Ononokosu. Considering he dies to a +1 lo outrage, I wouldn't call that walling. The only thing that wall Onono are steel types. Your best bet is revenge killing with 100, 99, 98 base speed scarfers. I do think Onono works well with Zorarark because he takes bug type attacks but i think a fighter like Blaziken or Nape might be better because they can take out everything that causes Zorarark problems.
Swords Dance Ono's Outrage will do 81.93%-96.53% to a 252 HP/252 Def Relaxed Swampert. Not every Swampert will even run that defensive of a spread. (I also didn't even calc Life Orb trololol)
0 Sp. Atk Swampert's Ice Beam vs. Ono does 53.92%-63.48% back.
Basically, if Swampert invested more in Sp. Atk to deal more to Onoko, then Axeface would probably KO more often. I'd hardly say that Ono is walled by Swampert.
Zoro also won't be OHKO'd by a 0 Atk EQ and he'll 3KO with Specs Dark Pulse, so Swampert can't switch in to Zoro with impunity.
0 Sp. Atk Swampert's Ice Beam vs. Ono does 53.92%-63.48% back.
Basically, if Swampert invested more in Sp. Atk to deal more to Onoko, then Axeface would probably KO more often. I'd hardly say that Ono is walled by Swampert.
Zoro also won't be OHKO'd by a 0 Atk EQ and he'll 3KO with Specs Dark Pulse, so Swampert can't switch in to Zoro with impunity.
Swampert?? lol
Jolly Onokusu is guaranteed to 2HKO Swampert with only Life Orb and no boosts. Adamant +1 LO Ononkusu has a decent chance to OHKO Swampert. Swampert doesn't stand a chance against +2 Ono, unless it runs Dragon Claw. So Swampert doesn't wall it. He even gets Skarm with a 2HKO with Jolly Swords Dance + LO, so you can only imagine what he will do to everything else. His biggest downfall will be his Speed. He doesn't get the Speed Troll or even Tie with base 100s.
Jolly Ononkusu has Roughly the power of Adamant Garchomp. Ono is able to use sheer force to break through even the toughest Walls.
*Calcs were ran against Standard 252/216 Swampert.
It's actually funny because Ono hits 393 at Jolly to Garchomps 394 at Adamant. lol!
I would like to mention that in Wi-Fi battles, your opponent's and your team are revealed before the battle and you may switch the order of your team before starting the battle. So it doesn't make any difference...
As I mentioned in the "R.I.P Scouts" thread, I feel that even with teams revealed Zoroark adds a second level of mindgames to any 6v6. Why? The fact that your opponent SEES Zoroark actually works to your advantage. Anytime your opponent goes to make a prediction or attack, they have to think: "Is this Zoroark I'm facing? Or is it the Pokemon they meant to send out?"
As such, four possible outcomes occur:
A) Your Pokemon is actually Zoroark, Opponent KOs Zoroark
B) Your Pokemon is actually Zoroark, Opponent loses a Pokemon.
C) Your Pokemon is what you sent out, Opponent KOs your Pokemon
D) Your Pokemon is what you sent out, Opponent loses a Pokemon.
I say "KO and lose" because Zoroark's defenses and lack of a good base HP means he likely can't even take a neutral hit and Zoroark's attack stats should be tuff enough to do significant damage. Either way, it's a 50-50 chance that he gets it right, and this isn't even taking into account the usual mindgames that occur over prediction.
Also, is there any point to using Night Burst over Dark Pulse?
As such, four possible outcomes occur:
A) Your Pokemon is actually Zoroark, Opponent KOs Zoroark
B) Your Pokemon is actually Zoroark, Opponent loses a Pokemon.
C) Your Pokemon is what you sent out, Opponent KOs your Pokemon
D) Your Pokemon is what you sent out, Opponent loses a Pokemon.
I say "KO and lose" because Zoroark's defenses and lack of a good base HP means he likely can't even take a neutral hit and Zoroark's attack stats should be tuff enough to do significant damage. Either way, it's a 50-50 chance that he gets it right, and this isn't even taking into account the usual mindgames that occur over prediction.
Also, is there any point to using Night Burst over Dark Pulse?
I have a question about Illusion...Does it also copy the Base Hp stat of the pokemon?If the pokes have some differance in their HP its kind of a big give away...Another thing im wondering is does it mention the copied pokemon's ability like if u copy a suicune does it state like "Suicune is exerting its pressure"?
Specs Zoroark actually has a guaranteed 2hko on Vaporeon with dark pulse with SR. So I would consider luring Vap a huge success..
Crocune fares only slightly better, and neither of these can really do anything in return..
[edit] - that is based on the standard wish passer set on the site btw..
Have a nice day.
Crocune fares only slightly better, and neither of these can really do anything in return..
[edit] - that is based on the standard wish passer set on the site btw..
Have a nice day.
Gallade resists Stealth Rock.
I'd be happy to lure bulky waters (especially considering how useful they're shaping up to be this gen), I'm just being a perfectionist for the sake of discussion. Blaziken/Infernape do indeed seem ideal.
I'm getting 43% - 51% vs 188/0 Vaporeon. That's a 52% chance to 2HKO after SR and Leftovers but Vaporeon can use Protect to gain extra recovery to guarantee it isn't 2HKO'd. So yeah, it's not bad by any means but I was hoping that the 'grand unveiling' would result in something a little more damaging to the opponent.Hip said:
I'd be happy to lure bulky waters (especially considering how useful they're shaping up to be this gen), I'm just being a perfectionist for the sake of discussion. Blaziken/Infernape do indeed seem ideal.
According to Serebii and the first post in the thread, Night Burst has 5 more BP at the cost of 5 Accuracy. Which means that the use of Night Burst would be measured in the KOs those 5 BP secure that Dark Pulse does not.
I'm not sure if this was posted before, but I found this Youtube video of Illusion in-play and it seems Zoroark transforms into the last Pokémon in the party, not the second as previously thought.
Doesn't Night Burst's secondary effect lower the opponent's accuracy?
zoroark's offensive stats + blissey's HP = the ulitmate sweeper (I think)
wait, does illusion copy the HP of your second pokemon or the opponents pokemon?
im confused
#571 - Zoroark - Dark
60 HP / 105 Atk / 60 Def / 120 SpA / 60 SpD / 105 Spe (510 BST)
Illusion
Illusion will change the appearance of the Pokémon to a different species. This is dependent on Pokémon in the player's party.
Acid Bomb, Aerial Ace, Agility, Ankle Sweep, Attract, Back Out, Calm Mind, Captivate, Claw Sharpen, Complete Burn, Counter, Cut, Dark Pulse, Detect, Dig, Double Team, Embargo, Extrasensory, Facade, Faint Attack, Flamethower, Fling, Focus Blast, Frustration, Fury Swipes, Get Even, Giga Impact, Grass Knot, Hidden Power, Hyper Beam, Imprison, Leer, Memento, Nasty Plot, Night Burst, Night Slash, Payback, Protect, Psych Up, Punishment, Pursuit, Rain Dance, Rest, Return, Roar, Rock Smash, Scary Face, Scratch, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Snatch, Substitute, Sunny Day, Swagger, Swords Dance, Taunt, Thief, Torment, Toxic, Troll, U-turn
Legend: Bolded are significant moves. Italicised are competitively good moves that might have niche use but are outclassed / not really relevant (for example, it's a Dark-type! Doesn't need Shadow Ball).
U-turn, Scratch, Leer, Pursuit, Claw Sharpen, Pursuit, Fury Swipes, Faint Attack, Scary Face, Taunt, Acid Bomb, Night Slash, Torment, Agility, Embargo, Punishment, Nasty Plot, Imprison, Night Burst
Claw Sharpen, Calm Mind, Roar, Toxic, Hidden Power, Sunny Day, Taunt, Hyper Beam, Protect, Rain Dance, Frustration, Return, Dig, Shadow Ball, Double Team, Flamethower, Aerial Ace, Torment, Facade, Rest, Attract, Thief, Ankle Sweep, Troll, Focus Blast, Fling, Complete Burn, Embargo, Shadow Claw, Payback, Get Even, Giga Impact, Swords Dance, Psych Up, Grass Knot, Swagger, U-Turn, Substitute, Rock Smash, Back Out, Cut
Detect, Captivate, Dark Pulse, Snatch, Memento, Shadow Claw, Extrasensory, Counter
Name - Category - Type - PP - Base Power - Acc - Effect
Acid Bomb - Special Poison 20 - 40 - 100 - Sharply lowers Special Defense.
Ankle Sweep - Physical - Fighting - 20 - 60 - 100 - Decreases opponent's Speed by 1 stage.
Back Out - Special - Dark - 15 - 55 - 95 - May decrease opponent's Special Attack by 1 stage.
Claw Sharpen - Other - Dark 15 - --- - --- -Raises Atk and Acc 1 stage.
Complete Burn - Special - Fire 15 - 30 -100 - Removes the target's Berry.
Get Even - Physical - Normal - 5 - 70 - 100 - Deals more damage if teammate was KO'd last turn.
Night Burst - Special - Dark 10 - 85 - 95 - May decrease opponent's Accuracy by 1 stage.
Troll - Special - Normal - 15 - 60 - 100 - Raises Base Power the more Pokemon you have with the attack.
Nasty Plot
Zoroark @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Lum Berry
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast
-Taunt / Flamethrower / Substitute
The main problem with this set is that, bar Illusion, it's unfortunately outclassed by Darkrai. It's even frailer than Darkrai. :( However, Taunt lets you set up on Blissey and other defensive types, while Flamethrower gives you a better alternative than Focus Blast against incoming Scizor / Skarmory / Heracross? / etc. Dark Pulse and Focus Blast get amazing coverage side by side. We're not totally sure how Illusion works yet, but you could use it to force a switch by bluffing and Nasty Plot as it goes.
Swords Dance
Zoroark @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Lum Berry
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Night Slash
- Ankle Sweep
- Taunt
Unfortunately, Zoroark's physical movepool is lacking compared to its special movepool; I feel this is a case where we won't get a new Lucario. Ankle Sweep is its best non-STAB option, and its base power is mediocre, though it has a nice secondary effect.
Choice Scarf
Zoroark @ Choice Scarf
Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice / U-turn
Utilises Zoroark's great base Speed to revenge kill things like weakened Jirachi, Garchomp, etc. HP Ice is for Dragon-types, though you can use U-turn instead for scouting / hazard damage.
Commentary
With solid offensive stats, boosting moves, and a handy speed that puts it before the monkeys, Garchomp, and the base 100s, Zoroark looks like a pretty serviceable sweeper. Its ability is just plain awesome, though we don't know how it works or how to harness it. You could use it to trap things with a bluff, or, for example, pretending to be something that lures a Shanderaa or other Ghost, then hitting it damn hard with a Dark-type STAB. If this is possible, Zoroark is a great Shanderaa check. However, it's also frail, and has a limited physical movepool. Furthermore, apart from Illusion, it's basically outclassed by the faster, stronger, and better-movepooled Darkrai.
Zoroak doesnt have any priority moves it can abuse with its great offensive stats. I believe this pokemon really resembles Lucario, although boasting more superior offensive stats. With now priority moves, Zoroak will probably move to BL as one hit from pretty much anything from any pokemon will K.O. it.
Possible roles:
Lead: Zoroak fails at this position. Most leads in the metagame have a priority move, so even if zoroak is sashed, it will still die.
SD: Zoroak can abuse this role pretty well due to high speed and offensive stats. However, being very susceptible to priority moves, it wont do pretty good
Choice
[scarf] : May work
[specs] might
[cb] meh.... should work in theory