I feel like Gligar is decent, but is unfortunately stuck in a tier where Mega Blastoise exists, and requires a partner who can deal with knock off users. He's an amazing physical wall and can set up rocks or defog as well. He can also toxic stall decently, and can be better than Hippowdown in some instances in this regard because of his higher bulk and the fact that leftovers recovery isn't completely needed since his bulk is that great. His earthquakes are weaker than the hungry hungry hippo's, but I guess it works if you need to poke something. One other niche he has over the hungry hungry hippo is that he doesn't induce sand. He can also usually take a special attack (although not particularly well) and do what he needs to if required. Overall, he should probably stay in the B rank.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Both of them seem fine in B- rank.
Kingdra faces a shit ton of competition, but can run multiple sets and isn't necessarily bad at performing different roles, either
Gligar faces competition from Hippo and shit, hates losing its Eviolite, and is major setup fotter, but it gets Defog + Rocks which is kinda cool. Though Forre does that too and doesn't have to lose its own hazards. The different typing distinguishes them, though.
Kingdra faces a shit ton of competition, but can run multiple sets and isn't necessarily bad at performing different roles, either
Gligar faces competition from Hippo and shit, hates losing its Eviolite, and is major setup fotter, but it gets Defog + Rocks which is kinda cool. Though Forre does that too and doesn't have to lose its own hazards. The different typing distinguishes them, though.
Hippo doesn't have to set up Sand. Also, it can be beneficial if you're running say a Mega Aerodactyl and a Jirachi, sand gives them bulk and negates leftovers on some pokes in opponents team. Both should go B-, I pretty much agree with everything Lightning Luxray said, Kingdra's versatility keeps it a threat. Scouting is dangerous, but once you know the set he's far less of a threat. Gligar is outclassed as a physical wall since Knock Off is prevalent on some things he would counter, Heracross, Krookodile, Mienshao (Free HP Ice Shao XY 2014). He does have a niche in being able to Defog and set up rocks, so that makes him useful in some teams hard pressed to make room for all the roles it needs. Finally his Ground Flying typing is quite good, so he has a place in UU.
I'd say Gligar should be a bit higher up or stay where it is. It's one of the few Pokemon that can switch into Heracross and is just a good wall in general. The only downside is that Defog isn't compatible with Immunity :(
Thing is Heracross has multiple ways to punish Gligar switch ins. First it can Knock Off Gligar's Eviolite, rendering him losing a substantial amount if his hulk. Secondly, Swords Dance can boost in his face while Gligar can do nothing back but reply with a weak Earthquake (inb4 aerial Ace Gligar), and Toxic, which benefits a SD Hera. Facade easily 2hkoes with +2 and Guts even when Gligar still has his Eviolite.
Gligar is pretty good, and it's typing and access to Knock Off and Defog set it apart from Hippowdon. Hippo is probably overall better, so I think Gligar is fine in B. I could see it being B+, though.
Kingdra is interesting. Don't bother with DD, Haxorus is straight better. Special sets, including CritDra, are largely inferior to Hydreigon. I dunno how good manual rain teams are in UU, but I can't see much of a reason to use Kingdra otherwise. Its not a bad Pokemon, just outclassed. B- seems better for it.
Kingdra is interesting. Don't bother with DD, Haxorus is straight better. Special sets, including CritDra, are largely inferior to Hydreigon. I dunno how good manual rain teams are in UU, but I can't see much of a reason to use Kingdra otherwise. Its not a bad Pokemon, just outclassed. B- seems better for it.
I don't blame you, really. Gligar's ridiculous set up fotter anyways, so you might as well be able to hit the main thing you wall super effectively, lol.
Yeah can't say I've seen it but honestly it's not an awful option since his earthquake is weak anyway
I know you officially ranked it but I was still writing this ;_;
The only reason why you would compare Kingdra to Hydrei and Haxorus is cause they're all dragons... but Kingdra functions differently than them. Hydrei is a mixed/special attacker, Haxorus is a set-up physical attacker but Kingdra is a rain sweeper, a role which is has next to zero competition in and a role in which it's really effective at. And no, full-rain teams are not very good but you only need to pair it with Tornadus or something. It's a ridiculously good sweeper that just plows through most offensive teams.
When I see B- I see stuff like Machamp, Mega Obama, Durant... just these things that are honestly only sort of okay in UU. Kingdra is not outclassed, at all, in its best role (Swift Swim) and is just more effective than stuff in B- by a longshot.
Haxorus doesn't have Swift Swim, meaning it can't boost its speed by +2 in one turn (as well as water STAB, which it doesn't have.) At +2 speed Kingdra is faster than every scarfer, unlike +1 Haxorus which can be RKed by a number of them.
The only reason why you would compare Kingdra to Hydrei and Haxorus is cause they're all dragons... but Kingdra functions differently than them. Hydrei is a mixed/special attacker, Haxorus is a set-up physical attacker but Kingdra is a rain sweeper, a role which is has next to zero competition in and a role in which it's really effective at. And no, full-rain teams are not very good but you only need to pair it with Tornadus or something. It's a ridiculously good sweeper that just plows through most offensive teams.
When I see B- I see stuff like Machamp, Mega Obama, Durant... just these things that are honestly only sort of okay in UU. Kingdra is not outclassed, at all, in its best role (Swift Swim) and is just more effective than stuff in B- by a longshot.
I think Magneton is an awesome Pokemon to use, just because it shares so many qualities with Magnezone, who we all know very well. All Magneton really needs is Specs, Tbolt/VSwitch/Flash Cannon/HP Grass and you are sure to do buttloads of damage to anything not named Blissey, courtesy of Analytic. It fares exceptionally well against balanced teams, who will be in serious trouble if they lack a Ground-type Pokemon, and even then Flash Cannon or HP Grass does serious damage. Magneton has few other options to run, such as defensive Eviolite-set and Steel Trapper. These sets are not as effective unfortunately, as Magneton has too common weaknesses for UU, and due to Steel-nerf, defensive Steel-types have fallen out of favor, thus decreasing Magnet Pull's utility.
Magneton faces competition mostly from Rotom-forms, who have the advantage of Trick, to screw up walls, namely Blissey. I think Magneton should still be ranked somewhere in the B-ranks, as the power of Magneton is unparalelled, and due to its awesome typing, it's not crippled by common status that defensive Pokemon carry, making switch-in easier. B- is probably a suitable rank for it, as it is a bit one-dimensional, and can't do much work against fast offensive teams, since almost every offensive Pokemon carries Fire-, Fighting-, or Ground-type moves in UU. Stall can also deal with it adequately. B- for Magneton.
Magneton faces competition mostly from Rotom-forms, who have the advantage of Trick, to screw up walls, namely Blissey. I think Magneton should still be ranked somewhere in the B-ranks, as the power of Magneton is unparalelled, and due to its awesome typing, it's not crippled by common status that defensive Pokemon carry, making switch-in easier. B- is probably a suitable rank for it, as it is a bit one-dimensional, and can't do much work against fast offensive teams, since almost every offensive Pokemon carries Fire-, Fighting-, or Ground-type moves in UU. Stall can also deal with it adequately. B- for Magneton.
Just a nitpick but you might as well run Acrobatics on your Gligar. 5 less base power if you don't get Knocked Off and 50 extra base power if you do get Knocked Off.
The only other benefit I can see is PP conservation, but Gligar almost never ends up in PP wars, at least in UU
Ok, so here's my thoughts. I haven't exactly used either of these mons in a good while, but i'll try to scrape up something up.
Magneton: This thing should be either B- or C+. It was B originally due to the fact that it made a good pivot and being able to put an obscene amount of pressure on Stall, and balance to an extent, somewhat like Magnezone. However, due to the fact that Blissey is on about 80% of those teams now make it somewhat hard for it to function well; granted, it still makes a great Voltturn Core with Mienshao, especially with the advent of Rocky Helmet Alomomola and Aromatisse, but the mere presence of Blissey, as well as its weakness to common attacking types like Fire, Fighting, and Ground make it much more worse than it was before.
will write meta later.
Magneton: This thing should be either B- or C+. It was B originally due to the fact that it made a good pivot and being able to put an obscene amount of pressure on Stall, and balance to an extent, somewhat like Magnezone. However, due to the fact that Blissey is on about 80% of those teams now make it somewhat hard for it to function well; granted, it still makes a great Voltturn Core with Mienshao, especially with the advent of Rocky Helmet Alomomola and Aromatisse, but the mere presence of Blissey, as well as its weakness to common attacking types like Fire, Fighting, and Ground make it much more worse than it was before.
will write meta later.
I think Magneton should be C+ rank, right below where Raikou is sitting. Although it hits really damn hard in its own right due to its already high 120 SpA stat and when combined with Specs and Analytic, when compared to Raikou, it just has way too many disadvantages such as its defensive typing against several common/spammable types and its base 70 speed is really meh in this metagame (granted it plays more of a wallbreaker role, but whatever) considering all the stuff that are faster than it (and slower than Raikou) can effectively stop it short. Overall, tri-magnet, although a powerful force in this metagame (pun somewhat intended), currently struggles to establish itself in this metagame due to the current nature of it.
This is more of a nitpick more than anything, but I'd like to respond to a few points made above about Magneton. Although it's true that Blissey is a dominant force in the metagame, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a hindrance to Magneton's performance. Sure, Magneton finds it hard to break Blissey, but I would like to introduce a calc at this point:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 178-210 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 80.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Now that there is a utility move, that does 25% damage minimum to Blissey (if you factor in SR + Leftovers recovery, you get a minimum of 30% damage every time Blissey switches to Magneton). Blissey may be hard to break, but reducing its health by 30% is a huge relief to any team, and I think this is one of the pros of Magneton. Sure, you need to have teammates who can take care of Blissey and SpD Mew (and Ground-types in general to an extent), but Blissey's introduction to the tier doesn't lower Magneton's viability in any way imo, since Magneton can make it real easy for other teammates to come in play and finish opponent's weakened walls. Magneton benefits from the prelevalence of the Pink mafia, since Fairy-types are in a hurry to switch against Magneton, and the Slow-brothers have nightmares of facing a Magneton. In fact, Blissey can't even come in on Magneton if its health is less than 55%, as in that point it will always be 2HKOed by Thunderbolt.
Also, I wouldn't compare Raikou to Magneton, as apart from being Electric-types, they have much to nothing in common. Rotom-formes are quite close, since they too offer a secondary STAB, have decent bulk, and can offer utility with VSwitch and Trick. Now I don't claim that Magneton couldn't be C+, just not for the reasons you described. I think the reasons for C+ would be that it is somewhat eclipsed by Rotom-forms, due to their flexibility and additional utility in Trick. Also, Rotom-forms work much better against offensive teams, which just bend Magneton over. However, nothing hits quite as hard as Magneton does, and it can dismantle common defensive cores quite easily. That's why I think it's more deserving of B- than C+.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 178-210 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 80.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Now that there is a utility move, that does 25% damage minimum to Blissey (if you factor in SR + Leftovers recovery, you get a minimum of 30% damage every time Blissey switches to Magneton). Blissey may be hard to break, but reducing its health by 30% is a huge relief to any team, and I think this is one of the pros of Magneton. Sure, you need to have teammates who can take care of Blissey and SpD Mew (and Ground-types in general to an extent), but Blissey's introduction to the tier doesn't lower Magneton's viability in any way imo, since Magneton can make it real easy for other teammates to come in play and finish opponent's weakened walls. Magneton benefits from the prelevalence of the Pink mafia, since Fairy-types are in a hurry to switch against Magneton, and the Slow-brothers have nightmares of facing a Magneton. In fact, Blissey can't even come in on Magneton if its health is less than 55%, as in that point it will always be 2HKOed by Thunderbolt.
Also, I wouldn't compare Raikou to Magneton, as apart from being Electric-types, they have much to nothing in common. Rotom-formes are quite close, since they too offer a secondary STAB, have decent bulk, and can offer utility with VSwitch and Trick. Now I don't claim that Magneton couldn't be C+, just not for the reasons you described. I think the reasons for C+ would be that it is somewhat eclipsed by Rotom-forms, due to their flexibility and additional utility in Trick. Also, Rotom-forms work much better against offensive teams, which just bend Magneton over. However, nothing hits quite as hard as Magneton does, and it can dismantle common defensive cores quite easily. That's why I think it's more deserving of B- than C+.
I've used Rotom-Cut a fair bit on various volt-switch-y offensive teams I've used mostly as an answer to bulky water types/ground types.
It has pretty good bulk which generally lets me recover momentum with the scarf set when I fuck up and lose it, but aside from that I'm generally just pretty disappointed with it. Main stab while it hits hard af leaves (HAHAHAHA GET IT LEAVES) you set-up fodder for lots of scary threats. Its speed tier is also fairly unfortunate in this tier which leaves (HAHAHAHHAHAHA I DID IT AGAIN SO FUNNY) it unable to check faster threats to offensive teams like DDHax (oh hey it's set up fodder for that) or scarfshao.
I'd probably put it around B, maybe B-.
Although saying that I haven't used its bulky set - maybe that one's better? idk.
It has pretty good bulk which generally lets me recover momentum with the scarf set when I fuck up and lose it, but aside from that I'm generally just pretty disappointed with it. Main stab while it hits hard af leaves (HAHAHAHA GET IT LEAVES) you set-up fodder for lots of scary threats. Its speed tier is also fairly unfortunate in this tier which leaves (HAHAHAHHAHAHA I DID IT AGAIN SO FUNNY) it unable to check faster threats to offensive teams like DDHax (oh hey it's set up fodder for that) or scarfshao.
I'd probably put it around B, maybe B-.
Although saying that I haven't used its bulky set - maybe that one's better? idk.
Rotom C to B+. It has almost an identical niche to Rotom H, who currently resides in B+. Leaf Storm punishes ground types trying to switch in. It is more resistant to hazards than Fire Rotom, and resists types like Water to allow it to check different threats than Rotom H does. And offensively, they both have merit and which you use is based on the typing synergy of your team, as they have different checks and counters. Basically it should be where Rotom H is.
After further consideration, I'd say Rotom-C is B- rank: See edit below.
As someone who has used specially defensive Rotom-C in the past, I'd classify it as B rank (perhaps B+ or B-). It has a very nice niche of countering bulky waters, specifically Slowbro, Swampert and Alomomola while doing significant damage in return. Its typing also allows it to soak up electric attacks though it can't do much to most electric types in return. Sp. Def. Rotom-C also could have a nice niche on momentum stall, being able to pivot out with volt switch. I've found that in practice, Rotom-C is able to soak up two special attacks and pivot to a counter. Its speed tier is interesting: at base 86 uninvested, one is able to outspeed most common walls including Suicune, but very little else.
A lack of reliable recovery does hurt it significantly in a specially defensive role, and while this can be mitigated with pain split, it's still an issue. Pain Split can however, serve as a nice support option to wear down Blissey as even with full HP investment, Rotom does not have a very good HP stat for a wall. This can be bad but it also allows Rotom-C to regain full health from friendly wishes. Otherwise Rotom-C is also quite nice for its ability to spread status- specifically burns or paralysis with will-o-wisp and thunder wave which gives it nice support options on bulky offense and offense teams. It can also tank one attack from hax while crippling it with status, but that of course, would require hax not to be a lum berry variant, which it almost always is.
Leaf Storm is a powerful STAB option for hitting once but its recoil effect is quite undesirable- frankly if Rotom-C is to be used as a wall, it would prefer Giga Drain.
The inevitable comparison will come with Rotom-H. From my experience, I feel that Rotom-C has better defensive typing, resisting rock and water, although it does gain a weakness to poison and neutrality to flying. However, Rotom-H clearly has better offensive STABs as very few pokemon resist both electric and fire as Victini has demonstrated to us. Thus I'd say Rotom-C is more valuable in a supportive tank role while Rotom-H is better as a scarf/specs trick+three attacks variant.
Supporting Calcs:
Bulky Waters:
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 30-36 (9.8 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 26-31 (8.5 - 10.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 640-756 (158.4 - 187.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 15-18 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 548-648 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 296-350 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Although it doesn't take much from suicune, its best bet is to go for two leaf storms and this is unreliable. However, as mentioned earlier, it can use volt switch to switch to something more capable of defeating suicune 1v1: in my team that was Toxicroak.
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 27-33 (8.8 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Electric attacks:
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 33-39 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
but note:
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 67-79 (17.4 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 23-27 (7.5 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 147-174 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Various others:
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (so Rotom-C can tank 2 Dracos from scarf Hydreigon while crippling with t-wave)
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 88-105 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's about all I have to say for now, so let me reiterate:
Rotom-C should be B-rank for its ability to completely counter bulky waters, survive decently strong special hits (As seen with scarf hydreigon), spread status effectively, pivot with Volt Switch and recover/punish switch-ins with pain split.
It should not be more than B-rank because of bulky waters being only one niche in the meta, its lack of reliable recovery and the one-off nature of Leaf Storm, its strongest stab, which requires it to switch out the very next turn.
EDIT:
I'd like to amend my previous post by adding the fact that Rotom-C does do a good chunk to ground types like Donphan:
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 440-518 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 88.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 384-452 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Earthquake can''t touch Rotom-C)
But after further consideration, I think Rotom-C actually should be ranked B- because Rotom-H almost completely outclasses it offensively, getting far better coverage with its dual stabs (only dragon resists both electric and fire iirc) while Mew heavily intrudes on its specially defensive support role. All Rotom-C can really hold over Mew is the ability to force out bulky waters and bulky grounds (as well as not being as heavily threatened by Hydreigon) while Mew has better mixed bulk and access to instant recovery in Softboiled. Mew also keeps U-turn or Volt Switch to be able to pivot
While it does maintain a small niche of checking bulky grounds/waters Rotom-C faces tough competition from Mew and Rotom-H defensively and offensively respectively and is in many ways outclassed by them.
As someone who has used specially defensive Rotom-C in the past, I'd classify it as B rank (perhaps B+ or B-). It has a very nice niche of countering bulky waters, specifically Slowbro, Swampert and Alomomola while doing significant damage in return. Its typing also allows it to soak up electric attacks though it can't do much to most electric types in return. Sp. Def. Rotom-C also could have a nice niche on momentum stall, being able to pivot out with volt switch. I've found that in practice, Rotom-C is able to soak up two special attacks and pivot to a counter. Its speed tier is interesting: at base 86 uninvested, one is able to outspeed most common walls including Suicune, but very little else.
A lack of reliable recovery does hurt it significantly in a specially defensive role, and while this can be mitigated with pain split, it's still an issue. Pain Split can however, serve as a nice support option to wear down Blissey as even with full HP investment, Rotom does not have a very good HP stat for a wall. This can be bad but it also allows Rotom-C to regain full health from friendly wishes. Otherwise Rotom-C is also quite nice for its ability to spread status- specifically burns or paralysis with will-o-wisp and thunder wave which gives it nice support options on bulky offense and offense teams. It can also tank one attack from hax while crippling it with status, but that of course, would require hax not to be a lum berry variant, which it almost always is.
Leaf Storm is a powerful STAB option for hitting once but its recoil effect is quite undesirable- frankly if Rotom-C is to be used as a wall, it would prefer Giga Drain.
The inevitable comparison will come with Rotom-H. From my experience, I feel that Rotom-C has better defensive typing, resisting rock and water, although it does gain a weakness to poison and neutrality to flying. However, Rotom-H clearly has better offensive STABs as very few pokemon resist both electric and fire as Victini has demonstrated to us. Thus I'd say Rotom-C is more valuable in a supportive tank role while Rotom-H is better as a scarf/specs trick+three attacks variant.
Supporting Calcs:
Bulky Waters:
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 30-36 (9.8 - 11.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 26-31 (8.5 - 10.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 640-756 (158.4 - 187.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 15-18 (4.9 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 548-648 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 296-350 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Although it doesn't take much from suicune, its best bet is to go for two leaf storms and this is unreliable. However, as mentioned earlier, it can use volt switch to switch to something more capable of defeating suicune 1v1: in my team that was Toxicroak.
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 27-33 (8.8 - 10.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-2 4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Electric attacks:
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 33-39 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
but note:
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 67-79 (17.4 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 23-27 (7.5 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
vs.
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 147-174 (45.6 - 54%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Various others:
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (so Rotom-C can tank 2 Dracos from scarf Hydreigon while crippling with t-wave)
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 160-190 (52.6 - 62.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-C: 88-105 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's about all I have to say for now, so let me reiterate:
Rotom-C should be B-rank for its ability to completely counter bulky waters, survive decently strong special hits (As seen with scarf hydreigon), spread status effectively, pivot with Volt Switch and recover/punish switch-ins with pain split.
It should not be more than B-rank because of bulky waters being only one niche in the meta, its lack of reliable recovery and the one-off nature of Leaf Storm, its strongest stab, which requires it to switch out the very next turn.
EDIT:
I'd like to amend my previous post by adding the fact that Rotom-C does do a good chunk to ground types like Donphan:
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 440-518 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 88.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 384-452 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(Earthquake can''t touch Rotom-C)
But after further consideration, I think Rotom-C actually should be ranked B- because Rotom-H almost completely outclasses it offensively, getting far better coverage with its dual stabs (only dragon resists both electric and fire iirc) while Mew heavily intrudes on its specially defensive support role. All Rotom-C can really hold over Mew is the ability to force out bulky waters and bulky grounds (as well as not being as heavily threatened by Hydreigon) while Mew has better mixed bulk and access to instant recovery in Softboiled. Mew also keeps U-turn or Volt Switch to be able to pivot
While it does maintain a small niche of checking bulky grounds/waters Rotom-C faces tough competition from Mew and Rotom-H defensively and offensively respectively and is in many ways outclassed by them.
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I think you guys are selling Rotom-M short. For me, it's easily in B or B+ rank.
It isn't directly outclassed by Rotom-H because they really don't fit similar roles at all. Rotom-H is partially useful for its decent resistances (most notably fire and flying), but I really can't agree with the claim that it outclasses rotom-M offensively at all. Grass / Electric is incredible coverage because it discourages switching in ground types. For instance, consider Flygon and SpD Hippowdon. Both of these pokemon can switch into Rotom-H with relative ease - even Timid Specs Rotom-H has no chance of nabbing the 2HKO. This makes Flygon and Hippowdon great switch-ins to Rotom-H. However, Rotom-M's grass / electric typing discourages these pokemon from switching in, which means it finds it much easier to spam volt switch and maintain momentum.
You really shouldn't be judging it on its specially defensive set because that's not the set you should be running imo. It's best on bulky offense teams as a offensive pivot with tons of utility - it can run choice scarf and Trick to further limit its switchins - now Specially Defensive behemoths like Blissey have to fear not only the chip damage and momentum from Volt Switch (which allows things that set up on blissey to get free rein), but also have to fear being crippled by trick. This helps teams break through dedicated stall and bulky teams. Remember also that running an offensive set does not preclude you running support moves in the fourth slot. While you can feasibly run Thunderbolt to become a poor man's Raikou, it's often better to run WoW or Pain Split to maintain longevity or cripple another threat once the Scarf is gone.
Finally, its niche is different from Rotom-H's because of its typing defensively. The majority of pokemon it'll be switching into (other than Blastoise, who has no way to OHKO if you run 24 HP EVs) are defensive Water and Ground types who lack a way to do solid damage to Rotom-Mow. This is why Rotom-Mow's best sets are more offensive - it's just more suited to coming in multiple times on weak hits and scaring defensive pokemon off, due to its typing and movepool.
It really is a good and underrated bulky pivot, and it doesn't deserve to be moved down.
It isn't directly outclassed by Rotom-H because they really don't fit similar roles at all. Rotom-H is partially useful for its decent resistances (most notably fire and flying), but I really can't agree with the claim that it outclasses rotom-M offensively at all. Grass / Electric is incredible coverage because it discourages switching in ground types. For instance, consider Flygon and SpD Hippowdon. Both of these pokemon can switch into Rotom-H with relative ease - even Timid Specs Rotom-H has no chance of nabbing the 2HKO. This makes Flygon and Hippowdon great switch-ins to Rotom-H. However, Rotom-M's grass / electric typing discourages these pokemon from switching in, which means it finds it much easier to spam volt switch and maintain momentum.
You really shouldn't be judging it on its specially defensive set because that's not the set you should be running imo. It's best on bulky offense teams as a offensive pivot with tons of utility - it can run choice scarf and Trick to further limit its switchins - now Specially Defensive behemoths like Blissey have to fear not only the chip damage and momentum from Volt Switch (which allows things that set up on blissey to get free rein), but also have to fear being crippled by trick. This helps teams break through dedicated stall and bulky teams. Remember also that running an offensive set does not preclude you running support moves in the fourth slot. While you can feasibly run Thunderbolt to become a poor man's Raikou, it's often better to run WoW or Pain Split to maintain longevity or cripple another threat once the Scarf is gone.
Finally, its niche is different from Rotom-H's because of its typing defensively. The majority of pokemon it'll be switching into (other than Blastoise, who has no way to OHKO if you run 24 HP EVs) are defensive Water and Ground types who lack a way to do solid damage to Rotom-Mow. This is why Rotom-Mow's best sets are more offensive - it's just more suited to coming in multiple times on weak hits and scaring defensive pokemon off, due to its typing and movepool.
It really is a good and underrated bulky pivot, and it doesn't deserve to be moved down.
Well ll moved meta down before i could post my thoughts on it, so im not gonna comment on it, lol. i don't really wanna rehash kitten either, so i'll just talk about Reuni.
Reuniclus should probably stay in B; it hasn't really gotten worse with the new drops, serving as a decent check to the likes of Infernape and Lucario, and pretty much beating Blissey flat-out (which i think is a pretty large niche since not a whole lot of special attackers can do this), and it also appreciates the emergence of Suicune and Alomomola, being able to beat both 1on1 unless Suicune is carrying Roar. The main problem with it is how hard it is to fit on a team tbh, with Hydreigon, Mega Absol, and Krookodile being so common (granted i think Reuni might be able to beat Hydrei if it lives a Dark Pulse and hits Fblast). overall its really not a bad mon, but it's just hard to actually find a good spot for it.
Reuniclus should probably stay in B; it hasn't really gotten worse with the new drops, serving as a decent check to the likes of Infernape and Lucario, and pretty much beating Blissey flat-out (which i think is a pretty large niche since not a whole lot of special attackers can do this), and it also appreciates the emergence of Suicune and Alomomola, being able to beat both 1on1 unless Suicune is carrying Roar. The main problem with it is how hard it is to fit on a team tbh, with Hydreigon, Mega Absol, and Krookodile being so common (granted i think Reuni might be able to beat Hydrei if it lives a Dark Pulse and hits Fblast). overall its really not a bad mon, but it's just hard to actually find a good spot for it.
Slowking is a decent Poke, it is just that Slowbro is better in most scenarios. Slowking's lower Defense and higher Special Defense than Bro rarely help it much as a wall since Water/Psychic is far better for sponging physical hits than special ones. This slightly different stat spread also leaves it generally outclassed by Bro as an Assault Vest user. With AV equipped, Bro becomes a durable mixed tank, while King is given a boost to its already great special bulk but left quite vulnerable to physical hits.
Dragon Tail is a decent option that Slowbro lacks but Dtail alone rarely warrants choosing King.
Slowking should be B- imo, because while it has some great things going for it, Slowbro outclasses it most of the time.
Dragon Tail is a decent option that Slowbro lacks but Dtail alone rarely warrants choosing King.
Slowking should be B- imo, because while it has some great things going for it, Slowbro outclasses it most of the time.
Sigilyph... Eh. I have not seen it in a really long time (well except on the lower ladder where people still don't use it correctly...) but I still believe it has some utilities on certain teams due to its own versatility. If I had to make an educated guess here based on my own theorymon-ing here, which admittedly is shaky af due to my lack of knowledge on it, I'd say it belongs in B- rank.
Now I'm not sure exactly what its best set is, but I know it's pretty tough to put a stop to its Cosmic Power set (or even its CM set) once it accumulates several boosts (presumably 2/3+ CPs), and quite frankly, it has tons of opportunities to set up its boosts. However, with swift action, Sigilyph can be easily dispatched using a very strong attacker like LO/Specs Hydreigon or CB Victini (two common 'mons; mega Houndoom also completely fucks it over if no coverage outside of Stored Power), as with zero/one boosts, its defenses still aren't that great enough to withstand powerful SE hits.
Sigilyph also has the moveset to pull off a LO offensive set, but it faces a lot of competition from Specially based Victini in that compartment. Victini has the coverage to match/beat that of Sigilyph's and not to mention, the slight speed difference in this case is pretty fucking important. However, its ability to avoid recoil damage from LO as well as avoiding the 25% from rocks due to Magic Guard is enough to give its niche as an attacker, although its offensive sets are not really what I'd base its ranking off of.
Overall, I believe its boosting sets is enough to warrant a B- rank due to the great potential it has, but I'm not completely sure about it.
Oh, and I'll be on Showdown in like 18 hours. See you guys then.
Now I'm not sure exactly what its best set is, but I know it's pretty tough to put a stop to its Cosmic Power set (or even its CM set) once it accumulates several boosts (presumably 2/3+ CPs), and quite frankly, it has tons of opportunities to set up its boosts. However, with swift action, Sigilyph can be easily dispatched using a very strong attacker like LO/Specs Hydreigon or CB Victini (two common 'mons; mega Houndoom also completely fucks it over if no coverage outside of Stored Power), as with zero/one boosts, its defenses still aren't that great enough to withstand powerful SE hits.
Sigilyph also has the moveset to pull off a LO offensive set, but it faces a lot of competition from Specially based Victini in that compartment. Victini has the coverage to match/beat that of Sigilyph's and not to mention, the slight speed difference in this case is pretty fucking important. However, its ability to avoid recoil damage from LO as well as avoiding the 25% from rocks due to Magic Guard is enough to give its niche as an attacker, although its offensive sets are not really what I'd base its ranking off of.
Overall, I believe its boosting sets is enough to warrant a B- rank due to the great potential it has, but I'm not completely sure about it.
Oh, and I'll be on Showdown in like 18 hours. See you guys then.
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