dialganet
Banned deucer.
In my standard, they don't, but that's
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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So im sorry if I repeat..i doubt i will but i read about as much as i could. I just wanted to throw out what i think as a potential vote in this test...(assuming I can get through the laddering lol) So ill start with where I stand on all three...genesect needs a ban, lucarionite probably needs a ban, and deo-s should be fine.
With that said my main reason for genesect is 2 fold. 1 being his versatility, although most just run the auto playing special scarf, there is a very real threat with his other sets like shift gear and the like. So having to guess what kind it is can be troublesome and would allow for a potentially free shift gear. But the main reason is it doesnt really take any skill to use and it jsut gives free momentum while hitting very hard with u-turn and although I have gotten better at dealing with them...even though they are not a problem for my particular team thats because i have 2 dedicated pokes to dealing with him. which just shouldnt be the case.
Lucario has been talked about enough, I can just say i agree with all the points out there about his strength unpredictability and what not, but I mean AV tentacruel counters the special set pretty nicely and he can fit onto teams pretty well, but anyway he should proabbly be banned just because he has like 4 potential priority moves and those are a bitch to deal with.
Deo-s is pretty much just the best at what he does but not to the point of being overpowered, I mean defog is everywhere and predicting a bisharp switch in is pretty damn easy. And most of his sets are harmless, I mean I just dont see him getting banned. I have him on my HO team and I feel liek he can be hard to handle but in the end he usually dies after getting screens and rocks up and that isnt exactly ubers material.
With that said my main reason for genesect is 2 fold. 1 being his versatility, although most just run the auto playing special scarf, there is a very real threat with his other sets like shift gear and the like. So having to guess what kind it is can be troublesome and would allow for a potentially free shift gear. But the main reason is it doesnt really take any skill to use and it jsut gives free momentum while hitting very hard with u-turn and although I have gotten better at dealing with them...even though they are not a problem for my particular team thats because i have 2 dedicated pokes to dealing with him. which just shouldnt be the case.
Lucario has been talked about enough, I can just say i agree with all the points out there about his strength unpredictability and what not, but I mean AV tentacruel counters the special set pretty nicely and he can fit onto teams pretty well, but anyway he should proabbly be banned just because he has like 4 potential priority moves and those are a bitch to deal with.
Deo-s is pretty much just the best at what he does but not to the point of being overpowered, I mean defog is everywhere and predicting a bisharp switch in is pretty damn easy. And most of his sets are harmless, I mean I just dont see him getting banned. I have him on my HO team and I feel liek he can be hard to handle but in the end he usually dies after getting screens and rocks up and that isnt exactly ubers material.
I always find deoxys to have a pretty nasty case of 4mss. How have you guys been getting around that? Spikes/taunt/fire punch/superpower seems like the best all around option
FYI, I am definitely working to vote so I can ban all three. Luke destroys the meta-game, Genesect checks all of it bar some fire types and Deo-s's reasons for banishment are best worded in Jukian's post, alongside personal experience.
i understand the possibility that my point about gene may not be entirely true and if that's the case i hope i generate good discussion of it
If it's a hyper offensive team and you are using it for hazards and screens, why does it need to stick around after it's fullfilled its job?
The thing you said about most of it's sets being harmless is false. The Life Orb Revenge Killer exists and is probably its best set this generation. With Superpower / Psycho Boost / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire not many things can safely switch in without being heavily dented. I don't see how this is harmless unless Im missing something here.
Okay, since I just got done with the first half of reqs I feel it's time to share my views on our three suspects.
Lucarionite - Will most likely be banned. Should most likely be banned.
However, while I personally feel like it is simply a bit too strong for OU, there is no point in reiterating any of the numerous good reasons to ban it yet again. Instead please allow me to play devil's advocate for a bit.
Genesect - Tricky. It's incredibly versatile, insanely good at what it does, there are few reasons not to use it and most of the reasons it was banned in gen 5 still stand. However there's always the power creep and all, it lost some resistance and - most importantly - it just didn't feel that great in practice. Basically my theorymoning doesn't match my experiences on the ladder and based on the fact that I'm not thoroughly convinced it needs to be banned I'd probably vote OU if I had to decide right now.
Deoxys-S - The only sets I've faced so far were hazard lead sets. I don't really like playing against them, but they certainly aren't broken. I didn't have to deal with all out offensive sets yet. They long fairly good on paper and all, but that alone isn't enough to convince me they need to be banned. As of now I'm strongly leaning towards OU.
Please don't kill me. .__.
Lucarionite - Will most likely be banned. Should most likely be banned.
However, while I personally feel like it is simply a bit too strong for OU, there is no point in reiterating any of the numerous good reasons to ban it yet again. Instead please allow me to play devil's advocate for a bit.
- Mega Lucario is easy to scout. Relatively anyway. Versatility and the ability to run multiple fundamentally different sets with fundamentally different counters is something a lot of Pokemon banned in the past had in common. Mega Lucario fits this bill. It can either run a Nasty Plot set or a Swords Dance set and it is absurdly hard to find a (viable) Pokemon that counters both of them. However Lucario generally reveals its set on the first turn. Once it sets up or attacks you know whether you are dealing with a special or physical Lucario. Sure it might run an unexpected coverage move, but after just one turn you know what you're dealing with and can play around it accordingly. This wasn't true for a lot of past suspects, for example a Genesect simply using Ice Beam gives you little to no idea what it full set might be or how to counter it. It could just be a special scarfed variant, or an EBelt one, or a physical banded one that's just running Ice Beam as a coverage move, or one with Shift Gear, ... Okay, you could do damage calcs, but I think you get the idea.
- Mega Lucario rarely gets free setup turns. (Mega) Lucario immediately poses a threat to a lot of Pokemon and thus theoretically gets a lot of opportunities to set up. However most of these scenarios still rely on prediction. There are few Pokemon that are complete setup bait for Mega Lucario and can't do significant damage to it or severely cripple it should its trainer predict incorrectly. Compare this to Blaziken which gets free boost or RP Landorus-I which could safely set up on pretty much anything.
- Mega Lucario is relatively easy to check. Sure, it gets strong priority, has a decent typing and all, but it is still rather frail. It is no Mega Kangaskhan, even strong neutral attacks do a number to it, it deals no damage should it decide to set up, its unboosted priority is rather manageable, that kind of stuff. A lot of the sturdier common scarfers check it adequately, Talonflame checks it, etc.. Point is, it has enough viable checks for some of them to fit nicely in just about any team. Keep in mind that this assumes prior damage and/ or no boosts on Lucario. If you mispredict and give it a free turn it obviously becomes a little harder to check.
- Mega Lucario's coverage moves are rather weak. Regular LO Lucario hits harder with non-STAB moves. Duh.
Genesect - Tricky. It's incredibly versatile, insanely good at what it does, there are few reasons not to use it and most of the reasons it was banned in gen 5 still stand. However there's always the power creep and all, it lost some resistance and - most importantly - it just didn't feel that great in practice. Basically my theorymoning doesn't match my experiences on the ladder and based on the fact that I'm not thoroughly convinced it needs to be banned I'd probably vote OU if I had to decide right now.
Deoxys-S - The only sets I've faced so far were hazard lead sets. I don't really like playing against them, but they certainly aren't broken. I didn't have to deal with all out offensive sets yet. They long fairly good on paper and all, but that alone isn't enough to convince me they need to be banned. As of now I'm strongly leaning towards OU.
Please don't kill me. .__.
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posts like the above are why stricter reqs should be implemented
Just a general question when talking about Specially Attacking Mega Lucario: Why Dark Pulse? Shadow Ball exists to give it PERFECT NEUTRAL COVERAGE (with Flash Cannon being the extra STAB to hit some Faeries), so...why? Either way, they hit the same targets Super-Effectively, so...oh well. Mega Lucario, each time I look, becomes harder and harder to switch into. At Turn 1 of Mega Lucario, you won't know what it will do...AT ALL. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, or attack? You don't know and likely won't know. It is a SERIOUS gamble...one that you'll likely lose because you mispredicted or switched on set-up.
I'm Borderline Ban with Genesect now after some more testing. Having a Shiny Genesect makes everybody question its moveset. They come in expecting Shift Gear only to see it as a Choice Scarf Genesect instead. Once again, Genesect is a gamble.
Deoxys-S is ALSO a gamble. Once again, it's difficult to say what it will do. Hazards, Screens, TrickScarf, Offense...don't say the timing says all, because I'll just lead with my Offensive Deoxys-S, kill your Tyranitar, and laugh at your face (okay, I won't do that...).
These are all Pokemon that are extremely difficult to predict. While I can safely see Mega Lucario getting the boot, I'm fine with Genesect and Deoxys-S being either way; to me, they are large threats that can be prepared for with a single Pokemon. Mega Lucario takes more than one.
*...now to prepare for the hate*
I'm Borderline Ban with Genesect now after some more testing. Having a Shiny Genesect makes everybody question its moveset. They come in expecting Shift Gear only to see it as a Choice Scarf Genesect instead. Once again, Genesect is a gamble.
Deoxys-S is ALSO a gamble. Once again, it's difficult to say what it will do. Hazards, Screens, TrickScarf, Offense...don't say the timing says all, because I'll just lead with my Offensive Deoxys-S, kill your Tyranitar, and laugh at your face (okay, I won't do that...).
These are all Pokemon that are extremely difficult to predict. While I can safely see Mega Lucario getting the boot, I'm fine with Genesect and Deoxys-S being either way; to me, they are large threats that can be prepared for with a single Pokemon. Mega Lucario takes more than one.
*...now to prepare for the hate*
I am not going to express any personal views about Lucario, but we shouldn't ban it just because it has no counters. We dealt with Dragonite last gen, which could easily get a turn of setup, unlike Lucario, and also had no safe switch-ins. Obviously, there are reasons as to why it should be banned, but I don't think having no counters is one of them.
Okay, so something that's been bugging me is people saying certain Pokemon don't counter Mega Lucario because they get 2HKOed at +2. A counter will be switching into Mega Lucario as it sets up, so Mega Lucario is going to have to either OHKO it at +2 or 2HKO it unboosted.
That said, I still am most likely going to vote to ban Mega Lucario. Its counters (yes, it does have counters) are few and far between, and usually get worn down quite quickly just by having to switch into it. The power, speed, priority and unpredictabilty all combine to make it just generally too good for the OU megame. I've been using Assault Vest Slowbro, which survives any of Mega Lucario's attacks at +2, physical or special (although +2 Dark Pulse will take a gigantic chunk out of it) and then takes a huge chunk back with Fire Blast. Regenerator helps it do this multiple times. Slowbro isn't on the team just to stop Mega Lucario, so it is in no way dead weight if the opposing team doesn't have one, but obviously Assault Vest Slowbro isn't going to fit on every team, and expecting it or one of a few others to be on every team would be ridiculous. So yeah, I'm not 100% decided, because I'd like to compare the Mega Lucario metagame to the one without it, but most likely going to vote ban on that one.
Gensect, I'm not sure. If looked at in isolation, it's actually gotten better since last gen, since it now has access to Shift Gear and Extreme Speed (hmm, just found out that move isn't one word anymore). The metagame has gotten bulkier though, so it's not as insane as it was in BW2 OU. I really could go either way on this one, so the suspect ladder will be very interesting.
Deoxys-S, I'm very much leaning towards no ban. Honestly, this thing (along with Bisharp) is one of the few things keeping hazard lead hyper offense alive right now, and to be honest, it's still not that hard to deal with. Skarmory still can defog and beat Bisharp, as can certain Mandibuzz sets. And of course there's Excadrill, and the fact that this bulkier metagame can handle hyper offense much more easily than in BW. Neutering hyper offense isn't nearly as important this gen as it was last, since it's so much less dominant and easier to deal with, so I don't think Deoxys-S is either overpowered or negatively impacting the metagame. It's possible the suspect test will change my mind, but I doubt it will.
That said, I still am most likely going to vote to ban Mega Lucario. Its counters (yes, it does have counters) are few and far between, and usually get worn down quite quickly just by having to switch into it. The power, speed, priority and unpredictabilty all combine to make it just generally too good for the OU megame. I've been using Assault Vest Slowbro, which survives any of Mega Lucario's attacks at +2, physical or special (although +2 Dark Pulse will take a gigantic chunk out of it) and then takes a huge chunk back with Fire Blast. Regenerator helps it do this multiple times. Slowbro isn't on the team just to stop Mega Lucario, so it is in no way dead weight if the opposing team doesn't have one, but obviously Assault Vest Slowbro isn't going to fit on every team, and expecting it or one of a few others to be on every team would be ridiculous. So yeah, I'm not 100% decided, because I'd like to compare the Mega Lucario metagame to the one without it, but most likely going to vote ban on that one.
Gensect, I'm not sure. If looked at in isolation, it's actually gotten better since last gen, since it now has access to Shift Gear and Extreme Speed (hmm, just found out that move isn't one word anymore). The metagame has gotten bulkier though, so it's not as insane as it was in BW2 OU. I really could go either way on this one, so the suspect ladder will be very interesting.
Deoxys-S, I'm very much leaning towards no ban. Honestly, this thing (along with Bisharp) is one of the few things keeping hazard lead hyper offense alive right now, and to be honest, it's still not that hard to deal with. Skarmory still can defog and beat Bisharp, as can certain Mandibuzz sets. And of course there's Excadrill, and the fact that this bulkier metagame can handle hyper offense much more easily than in BW. Neutering hyper offense isn't nearly as important this gen as it was last, since it's so much less dominant and easier to deal with, so I don't think Deoxys-S is either overpowered or negatively impacting the metagame. It's possible the suspect test will change my mind, but I doubt it will.
There's only 1 thing I completely agree with, it isn't another Mega Kangaskhan, but its still arguably broken. Scouting Lucario is usually dangerous, his typing gives him plenty of times to set up, and checking suggests that you can take hits from him, but with +2 in either atk or SpA, there's not much that can do that.
Dragonite has gaping flaws, most notably a SR weakness, but also a huge ice weakness and plenty of dragons faster than it. Between the defog buff and weakness policy, I can see an argument that dragonite's broken, but when the metagame's full of things like genesect and lucario, that's almost laughable to think about. Its not lucario's lack of counters that makes him so dangerous, its his lack of counters, AND everything else.
Mega Lucario's "counters" lack the ability to straight up OHKO it. Zapdos' Heat Wave can't OHKO and neither can Aegislash's Sacred Sword. Mega Venusaur's Earthquake isn't an OHKO and Gyarados' Earthquake isn't OHKOing either.
With that in mind, Mega Lucario can easily Nasty Plot as they switch in, deal massive amounts of damage (unless its Zapdos/RestTalk Gyarados, Mega Lucario's only two real counters), survive their hit (unless the crit happens) and proceed to KO the following turn or just switch out and wait for another chance.
While Zardx is certainly threatening, it doesn't compare at all with megaluke.
1. There is a huge difference between 100 base speed and 112 base speed. While it may not seem much, there are a lot of relevant pokemon on the 100-110 range (the latis, gengar, infernape, manetric, garchomp, etc... not to mention tying with all the +speed base 100 if you are + speed or losing to them if you are + Atk). Charizard needs a dragon dance to outrun a lot of things that megalucario simply outruns.
2. Raw damage output is much lower. 130/130 is less than 140/145. Tough claws 1.33 boost is less than Adaptability boost and 1.5x boost from dragon dance is much less than 2x from sword-dance/nasty plot.
3. Charizard has worse moves. Lucario has acces to 120 BP close combat and a ton of great coverage moves. Charizard's 120 BP fire move kills him with recoil (I have killed a weakened zard just by switching my chansey into the flareblitz. The funny thing is that eviolite chansey actually survives) and his 120 BP dragon move locks him into it. Also charizard lacks priority. This is relevant against stuff like talonflame, which can die to +2 ES after SR.
4. Charizard X is not hard to predict. The biggest surprise you are getting from Zard is maybe a will o wisp. With lucario, there is usually no way to tell if it is physical or special, much less which coverage moves (or priority) he will carry.
5. The biggest problem, by far, is the one you mentioned yourself. Charizards absolutely needs rock off the field, or else it will be taking 50% in the switch in and 25% if it switches out again. Lucario is 4x RESITANT to SR on the other hand. Keeping rocks reliably off the field is not as easy to do as you think against a good player. SR only takes a turn to set up and many different pokemon can set them up.
There is really no comparison. All charizard has is better typing and somewhat better bulk (which doesnt matter a lot when you are taking 50% from SR and your moves have recoil) and better type.
That aside, I don't think I willl be trying to get a vote because 1700 is just way too much in the OU ladder, and it would be a lot of work even if I was able to do it. You guys realize you pretty much have to get into the top 40, right? And there are like, what, 10000 different users, or more? Thats like putting the vote in the hands of the top 2%. I understand smogon doesn't want complete noobs voting on this issue, and demanding a high rating to vote is a way to err on the safe side, but reaching the top 40 of OU seems like an overkill to me.
Anyway, if we were to judge merely from the responses in this thread, is clear that lucario will get a ban, deoxys will not, and genesect is the only pokemon on which people are divided, with more people leaning on the ban side.
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I doubt I'll ladder in time to meet the suspects (I'm just way too lazy) though I will add that Lucarionite and Genesect do need to go.
Mega Lucario has already been discussed so much and I would just like to re-iterate that "checking" or "revenge killing" mega lucario isn't enough of a reason to keep it in OU, as stated by several people before everything can be checked it doesn't mean that isn't uber worthy, even ubers can be checked too.
Genesect limits teambuilding beyond belief, it requires heatran/rotom-h to be on your team to even be able to handle it, if it's paired on a team with dugtrio for example Heatran cannot even switch in to counter it unless you run shed shell-tran. I've faced gene and I've used gene, I've even helped people find ways how to abuse it that didn't know before. I don't see why people are arguing that it isn't ban worthy because it can either be revenge killed (which is retarded since genesect IS a revenge killer with it's choice sets, revenge killing the revenge killer, gratz on sacing your team member to this beast it just did it's job I'll switch out now to do it again later) or the fact that it is free momentum to your team.
Despite heatran being on teams I faced or the teams I used didn't devalue genesects offensive presence, forcing heatran to switch in, take rock damage, u turn damage and forced out due to a check for it being swapped in that's a potential 18-20% damage each time heatran can take assuming genesect isn't banded which does a lot more to heatran. That damage may seem small but U-Turn damage was never supposed to be big anyway so please don't herp derp that the damage is small, remember heatran is forced out after every u turn so it severely limits it's ability to counter or even recover the damage dealt via lefties. Rotom-H despite being the next best counter to Genesect is even more SR weak and has less HP bulk than Heatran.
If I make the requirements in time I will be voting for Gene and Mega Lucario to be banned, Deoxys-S is also worthy of being banned to ubers. It's offensive stats coupled with LO, a speed tier that makes it faster than scarf-chomp and a move-pool that most pokemon have wet dreams about are certainly all uber material. Not to mention the fast sr/taunt and the defiant abuse with bisharp and/or thundy-i as a partner make it a bane for any team that took advantage of defog this gen. In fact the deoxys-s/defiant have the potential to make every defogger in OU useless, if this partnership exists on the team you are facing the hazards that deoxy-s are pretty much there to stay unless you want to get swept by the defiant user. Rapid Spin isn't even a viable alternative to avoid this combo since no rapid spin users are really capable of going head to toe with deoxys-s anyway.
Anyway I've rambled on quite a bit but I think I've made enough of my point.
Mega Lucario has already been discussed so much and I would just like to re-iterate that "checking" or "revenge killing" mega lucario isn't enough of a reason to keep it in OU, as stated by several people before everything can be checked it doesn't mean that isn't uber worthy, even ubers can be checked too.
Genesect limits teambuilding beyond belief, it requires heatran/rotom-h to be on your team to even be able to handle it, if it's paired on a team with dugtrio for example Heatran cannot even switch in to counter it unless you run shed shell-tran. I've faced gene and I've used gene, I've even helped people find ways how to abuse it that didn't know before. I don't see why people are arguing that it isn't ban worthy because it can either be revenge killed (which is retarded since genesect IS a revenge killer with it's choice sets, revenge killing the revenge killer, gratz on sacing your team member to this beast it just did it's job I'll switch out now to do it again later) or the fact that it is free momentum to your team.
Despite heatran being on teams I faced or the teams I used didn't devalue genesects offensive presence, forcing heatran to switch in, take rock damage, u turn damage and forced out due to a check for it being swapped in that's a potential 18-20% damage each time heatran can take assuming genesect isn't banded which does a lot more to heatran. That damage may seem small but U-Turn damage was never supposed to be big anyway so please don't herp derp that the damage is small, remember heatran is forced out after every u turn so it severely limits it's ability to counter or even recover the damage dealt via lefties. Rotom-H despite being the next best counter to Genesect is even more SR weak and has less HP bulk than Heatran.
If I make the requirements in time I will be voting for Gene and Mega Lucario to be banned, Deoxys-S is also worthy of being banned to ubers. It's offensive stats coupled with LO, a speed tier that makes it faster than scarf-chomp and a move-pool that most pokemon have wet dreams about are certainly all uber material. Not to mention the fast sr/taunt and the defiant abuse with bisharp and/or thundy-i as a partner make it a bane for any team that took advantage of defog this gen. In fact the deoxys-s/defiant have the potential to make every defogger in OU useless, if this partnership exists on the team you are facing the hazards that deoxy-s are pretty much there to stay unless you want to get swept by the defiant user. Rapid Spin isn't even a viable alternative to avoid this combo since no rapid spin users are really capable of going head to toe with deoxys-s anyway.
Anyway I've rambled on quite a bit but I think I've made enough of my point.
So everyone i guess i will see you all in a week after i have completely disapeared grinding my elo because i really want to vote on this stuff.... I hate genesect.
Whilst Lucario can be sent out with SR on the field, and not lose much, I don't think that this makes it broken. Not many dragons were faster than it with the DD boost, but, just as with Lucario now, a powerful scarfer could take it out providing multiscale was broken. In addition, whilst Mega Lucario is very fast, reg Lucario starts off slow, with only 90 base speed. This means that it needs a free turn before it can become a threat, which is admittedly not a particularly difficult task. I may be drawing comparisons to BW Dragonite that aren't there, but I can't help but feel that both are/were strong physical setup sweepers, have priority, and high base power moves. The key difference between them is Mega Lucario can't hold an item, and so can only run the one set, rather than being able to use a choice band.
Whilst it is clear to me that Lucario is without a doubt a better setup sweeper than Dragonite, in a more powerful meta, it is worth considering whether those aspects that make him better warrant a ban.
Also, I would like to repeat that I'm not actually trying to express a viewpoint of my own, which may or may not differ from what I have implied, but I do think that if Mega Lucario needs to be banned, it needs to be for a better reason than it being a strong setup sweep with no counters - we have dealt with exactly this before.
Tabuu: Part of the downside of using a mega has to do with the oportunity cost of not being able to use another powerfull mega which could have been a good fit for your team. So I think comparing megalucario with another very popular offensive mega is not irrelevant.
Gliscor and Landorus-Therian, alongside Jellicent, Jirachi and Heatran were counters depending on what set Dragonite ran.
Gliscor and Landorus-Therian were solid answers for non-Ice Punch variants. Jellicent could Will O Wisp and neuter non-Lum Berry variants, allowing it to survive two Outrages and heal it all off. Jirachi worked great against Dragonite under Drizzle support and Heatran worked well against non-Fire Punch variants. Dragonite definitely had counters depending on what it decided to run. And from what I've checked the most accepted "standard" Dragon Dance set was DD | Outrage | Fire Punch | Extremespeed.
Mega Lucario has counters. It's just that the number of counters it has are so sparse, Mega Lucario can easily run through teams that lack the counters. You need a better reason? How about I reword it.
The fact that Mega Lucario can tear through both defensive and offensive teams alike, makes Mega Lucario extremely dangerous and overall unhealthy for the metagame.
...And so how is that helping the discussion of whether or not Mega Lucario should be banned?
Lucario's clearly more broken than Dragonite. It has no obvious flaws, no obvious counters, decent speed without needing to boost, and the unpredictability of being able to run physical and special. The few things that do bypass its speed have no way of making sure it doesn't switch out. Sure it'll lose its boost, but taking 3% damage from SR instead of dying is freakin annoying.
Because is not like you are missing the chance to use something equally good by using lucario. There is nothing remotely as good.
Anyway, reagarding the discussion. I think the answers are very clear if we ask the question, which bans will make the metagame more varied? I think we can all agree a more varied metagame is always more fun and more desirable.
Mega lucario: Should be banned. The very existence of it puts a huge burden on stall because lucario can freely set up on many common stall pokes (mandibuzz, non-thunderwave chansey, most sylveon sets, etc). Banning it will make defensive teams more viable and increase variety.
Genesect: Should be banned. Other may disagree, but from my experience, U turn and teams with a genesect+rotom u-turn core are probably the strongest teams at the moment. These are very popular at the higher ratings, and is not even hard to slap genesect + rotom + 4 good OU pokemons with some synergy on a team and do well with it. Banning Genesect will not make U-turn bad (rotom is still very good, and there are some other decent u-turners like landorus and scizor) but it will make them not so dominant.
Deoxys-S: Should not be banned because of what Aj said. Hyper offensive Hazard teams with Bisharp are good but not broken by any means. Banning Deo will only eliminate an archetype that is not really the strongest one.
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I would say that deosharp, and I really mean deo s cuz bisharp is just taking advantage of deo s support is broke, and in my eyes the most broken of the three. The amount of pressure it can put on all playstyles is ridiculous. Every stall team must be prepared to face a +2 bisharp with a free turn, and that is the best case scenario, as there are times where you can stop them from defog going with offensive pressure. Balance is even more screwed, as deo s simply grabs all the momentum for its team, and lack of momentum hurts balance more than stall. Think about what deo (sharp)does. You get
A: residual damage on every mon for at least a few turns
B: a likely free sd boost to a mon that has insane neutral coverage, priority, and power.
C: momentum, as you sac deo and can bring in likely a setup sweeper against a mon that has possibly been taunted
D: it can force them to allow something crucial to be crippled/killed to defog eg: I have sect in on your zapdos and you can live an ice beam, you need to defog or your screwed, but now my lucario fucks u, or I get a free +2 with bisharp on skarm, you need to whirlwind or get swept, but now pinsir wrecks
Tl,dr
Deo s(harp) is broken AF, more than the rest as they are just products of it
A: residual damage on every mon for at least a few turns
B: a likely free sd boost to a mon that has insane neutral coverage, priority, and power.
C: momentum, as you sac deo and can bring in likely a setup sweeper against a mon that has possibly been taunted
D: it can force them to allow something crucial to be crippled/killed to defog eg: I have sect in on your zapdos and you can live an ice beam, you need to defog or your screwed, but now my lucario fucks u, or I get a free +2 with bisharp on skarm, you need to whirlwind or get swept, but now pinsir wrecks
Tl,dr
Deo s(harp) is broken AF, more than the rest as they are just products of it
Regarding the bullet points on Mega Lucario:
1. This is just outright untrue. Finding out what set it's running generally requires taking a good chunk of damage if not outright sacrificing something. They won't always go for their setup move first turn as they often don't even need it. There are few things that can safely switch in on Close Combat, Aura Sphere,AND Flash Cannon, which are generally the moves he'll be going for, and most of the ones that can (Talonflame, Zapdos, Volcarona, etc.) are easily are crippled by Stealth Rocks on the switch.
2. I actually agree with this a good bit. Lucario's typing gives him weakness to some very common attacking types, so setting up is a lot harder than people are making it out to be. They do get some free opportunities, but it's fairly common from my experiences to go entire games without getting a chance to setup, the most common scenario being taking damage from the opposing Pokemon so one of Lucario's checks can revenge kill it.
3. This is true for Mega Lucario, but is also true for every offensive threat in the current metagame. There are simply so many priority users at the moment that virtually anything can be revenge killed. While Lucario's typing makes this a bit worse for him than others, it's an exaggerated issue as countless other Pokemon share this problem, the difference being that these revenge-killers can't actually switch into Lucario directly.
4. Mostly irrelevant simply because of how hard Close Combat hits. Not very effective Close Combat will still be doing more than most of Lucario's neutral non-STAB coverage moves.
Sorry if I come off a little mean. You said you were playing devil's advocate, so I'm assuming you don't mind.
The difference being that Lucario very nearly outclasses Banded Terrakion (It's usage stats are fairly good evidence of this). Close Combat hits for almost exactly the same damage. Meanwhile, Lucario can switch moves and has access to very powerful priority, Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Vacuum Wave. In fact, its movepool is more versatile overall, packing things like Crunch and Ice Punch to deal with Pokemon that could otherwise give it trouble. Not only that, Mega Lucario can hit from the special side. Lastly, it has 4 more base speed, allowing it to outspeed Gengar, Lati@s, and Thundurus, all fairly relevant threats.
Just a question, since I haven't used Deo-sharp myself. Don't most arguments against deo-s + bisharp apply to deo-D as well? Is Deoxys-D completely outclassed as a hazards lead? I don't know if faster taunt is a huge issue but you can alway use magic coat to prevent faster thing from taunting you. I have seen plenty of teams with Deoxsy defence + bisharp so I know these are at least usable. So if Deo-s gets banned what would prevent most people from just using Deo-D instead?
dialganet
Banned deucer.
As I've already said twice, my opinion is not carved in stone since I'm more than doubtful about MegaLuke. When I posted I was 70% no ban-30% ban. Now I'm testing it with some friends and I'm 55%-45% (or maybe 51-49% lol). But, since you've give me more food for thoughts, why not discussing? If the crowd doesn't mind reading, I'll say in a short statement at the end why I'm comparing Megaluke and ZardX. And, just to clarify, I find them equally scary because my usual team struggles more against Luke, but I think Luke is slightly better than ZardX
1. That's true, but Lucario has 90 base speed on the first turn, which is far worse than base 100 (there's literally half of the pokedex between +90 and +100 lol). One could argue that this point is not valid because of the three priority moves Luke has access to, but the fact that, or you come in on something slower to megaevolve (that applies to Charizard too) or you're forced to use priority. This means you have to sacrifice basically 50%/66% of your power on the turn you megaevolve (yes, that's the difference between vacuum wave/flash cannon-aurasphere and BP-Espeed/CC, and the difference is insane: something can come in to take priority and forcing you out: Aegislash for example). Obviously you aren't coming in something that will survive priority and outright kill Luke, but that's something that hinders Luke. I do understand that this is kind of a weak point since it all comes down to prediction, and prediction isn't about the ability of the Pokemon itself, but of the player. Yes, ZardX has to DD to solve this, but this also frees him of some Revenge killers that Lucario will have trouble with after the very likely first kill (Scarfchomp would still be a problem, but he's for both). Megaluke will never have the edge over <100 scarfers unless they're severly weakened or they have a crippling fighting/steel weakness.
2. Well, that's one way of reading their offensive prowess. On the other side, one could say that ZardX has 180 stab moves backed up by 130 atk and Tough claws boost. This kind of damage output is beaten only by two luke moves: CC and Focus Blast (have you ever seen that?) His coverage moves, though backed up by priority half of the time, haven't that sheer output (Crunch, BP, Espeed aren't even close, they don't even reach Earthquake, the most common ZardX coverage move, Flash Cannon is close, Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse aren't). The boosting moves are, simply, different moves. DDance has that huge +1speed which is, as I've said, huge. Less power, but also less Revenge-killable (what have I just written?).
3. Idk. Lucario has all the tools to succeed, but hasn't the sheer power of that double stab. I find MegaLuke easier to scare out than Xzard once it has set up. Basically, a fighting resist/immunity scare him out at +2. I find Xzard to be more of a problem because of the enhanced speed. But maybe I'm just biased cause I tipically run both Aegislash and AV goodra. Priority is a bitch late game, I'll give you that.
4. I disagree. You know why I find Zard the closest and most suited comparison? ZardY. Good luck eating SunBoosted Fire Blast and his coverage moves if you predict wrong. Yes, maybe its easier to predict which Zard you're facing thanks to team preview, and to do the same against Luke is an harder task. But bluffing is right there for Charizard as for Luke. Today I had six wi-fi battles (to tell the truth, one was a full uber team in the hand of someone who wasn't clearly knowing what he was doing). In four of them I faced Tyranitar. I had made up a vintage team just to have fun, which core was a spinning defensive Blastoise, a Venusaur acting as annoyer and status, and ZardX. Basically everyone thought that was ZardY. TTar came out 4 times out of 4 as I was faking solarbeam. just to be EQed to death. This just to clarify that even ZardX is unpredictable. Not as Luke, ok, but that's why Luke is imho slightly better.
5. I completely agree, as I've clarified in my first post.
Bulk and that insane typing is something, though, especially if you use Flare Blitz the least possible.
Just to (hopefully) say something that has somewhat of a meaning after all this blabbering. (This is actually a quote from a Japanese manga lol) "A little stone can beat a highly crafted weapon, if it is launched by a master of combat". Imho, ZardX and MLuke are a very good sword and a great sword. MKhan was a nuclear bomb in comparison. MKhan is in another league. Zard X isn't better than Luke, Luke is stronger, but is probably in the same league. So, if ZardX is perfectly fine in OU, why ban something that's close to him? In short, to me, there's not that big difference, if Mluke and ZardX are used by two players of the same level.
As I've stated, this is my opinion and is probably biased by both my lack of experience and the fact that my team is weaker to MegaLuke than to Xzard, but this is my opinion. Ok, after reading all the posts coming as I was writing this, I'm officially now 50-50
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