Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

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Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think Whimsicott might deserve a D rank for its niche in dedicated troll teams. It can run Prankster Taunt and Memento to provide an opportunity for Smeargle to set up.
I agree. I think Whimsicott's access to priority Memento, Tailwind, and Encore gives it a niche on offensive teams, since it really facilitates frail Pokemon setting up. It's commonly seen on trolly teams, but it can be used on "serious" teams to make frailer and slower mons like Diggersby and CM Gardevoir much scarier.

oh wait sorry alexwolf i forgot. :'(

I already talked about every mon you brought up in post 90, but yeah. Ignore this for now i guess. Btw to add content, TRC convinced me about Manaphy dropping. My other thoughts are the same.
 
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Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think Whimsicott might deserve a D rank for its niche in dedicated troll teams. It can run Prankster Taunt and Memento to provide an opportunity for Smeargle to set up.
Nichemons like whimsicott aren't allowed to be discussed right now. Only the Pokemon mentioned in Post #90.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
Whimsicott is probably devalued because most people see it mostly on troll teams and don't actually think of it's usefulness. Being a great disruptor with priority encore, being able to steal the show (and momentum) with U-turn, leech seed stalling if you have absolutely nothing better to do, Memento and dual screens helping out with bulk for teammates, and many other options make it definitely worth a rank. I agree with D rank, it's very niche but it adds quite a bit of utility to the team, and it may also go up as time goes on.

(Also dat prankster stun spore, R.I.P Scarforus-T)

Aside from that, I do agree with Mega Alakazam up to B+. It doesn't need to run Timid (a common misconception when using it), meaning it can outrun everything with a Modest Nature, the only relevant Pokemon outspeeding you in Mega-Manectric, and if you really dislike it, you can run Timid. It has numerous move options, and can be tailored to what you need Mega-Alakazam to KO. Hidden Power, Focus Blast, Psyshock, Shadow Ball are the only real attacking moves you need, and then the third slot has a shit-ton of utility. Mega-Alakazam has a great niche in Trace, allowing it to beat Swift Swimmers and Exca under their respective weathers, meaning it's a great RKer as well. And with Mega-Mawile gone, it has less competition for a slot and opposition in battle, as there aren't as many solid answers out there anymore.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
alexwolf, do you think you could provide a link in the OP for the major update posts? It'd make it easier for people to find them without having to dig through the thread if they want to know what we're supposed to be discussing.

Oh, and please put a description next to "Blacklisted Pokemon"; it's killing my OCD.
 
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I guess it's time for me to distribute my share of everything?

Mega Manectric (B) --> (B+): I say this for one reason and one reason only. Offensive Teams. I've been looking through a ton of teams in the RMT section and even digging through some of my old teams to find that after weakening one of your Pokemon, Mega Manectric sweeps through better than a broom. Bolt Beam + Fire Coverage hits a ton of all threats in today's meta-game for super-effective damage. It's one of the few Pokemon who can easily (After MEvo) check Greninja, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Bird Spam, and as I said, a majority of offensive Pokemon in the meta-game. Now what I say next might get "Blah Blah Blah usage isn't viability" but whatever, from what I see, a large portion of teams being used are Hyper Offence, the teams that Mega Man break through with only small bit of help. The only problems I can think of at the top of my head are not being able to break stall, or balanced (Depending on the team). However I find it easy to just slap something like Greninja or Banded Terrakion or some wallbreaker on your team to deal with them. I may add some more or edit some about Mega Man or some other Pokemon once my computer stops lagging like hell.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
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alexwolf, do you think you could provide a link in the OP for the major update posts? It'd make it easier for people to find them without having to dig through the thread if they want to know what we're supposed to be discussing.

Oh, and please put a description next to "Blacklisted Pokemon"; it's killing my OCD.
That's why i have the number of the post with the latest update on the thread title. Same goes for the ''Pokemon to discuss'' list, though i guess i could post this list on the OP as well.

Also, added description for Blacklisted Pokemon.
 
My strongest opinions are in bold

Mew: Stay in A
I've used Mew a lot and it was really underrated at first but now its getting overhyped. Really good but isnt as meta defining as many other A+ mons.

Garchomp: Drop to A
I proposed this a while ago because while Garchomp has a lot of sets it faces stiff competition in almost all of them. A is perfect for it.

Mega Charizard X: Stay in S
I could honestly see it in A+ but dropping this guy before Keldeo is a joke and some others would have to drop as well

Tyranitar (Mega): Drop to A
I suggested this a month or two ago and everyone laughed at me. Mega Tar just faces too much competition from other bulky dragon dancers that take up a mega slot and are probably better than it in general (Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados)

Gyarados (Mega): Stay in A+
Really good dragon dancer, not incredible power but amazing bulk and typing. Easily A+

Heracross (Mega): Stay in A
Got a lot better after the Aegislash ban but not as good enough against the most common playstyle, offense, for A+. A is fine. Better than Mega Gardevoir for the record though ;)

Gardevoir (Mega): Stay in A
Got a lot better after the Aegislash ban but not as good enough against the most common playstyle, offense, for A+. A is fine.

Venusaur (Mega): Stay in A+
Not so sure about this one but I think its still a great wall, if it does move doen it shouldnt be because sand hinders its recovery but because the meta is becoming overprepared for it

Ferrothorn: Rise to A+
I think this is long overdue, Ferrothorn is great. Checks a ton of shit, access to hazards, good recovery, great typing, etc. etc.

Hippowdon: Drop to A-
Maybe B+ but i dunno. I think we all know why it should move down and i dont think it ever should have gone past A-

Landorus-T: Rise to A+
The Scarf set alone is almost worthy of A+ and the defensive set and access to stealth rock and a slow u-turn is just the icing on the cake.

Suicune: No Opinion
Ive only used Suicune a few times so i dont have too much of an opinion. Just not sure if it should rise above rain.

Raikou: Stay in B
As good as it is I think the rise of sand is too much for it as it is hard walled by both Excadrill and Tyranitar. Scarfchomp and Scarf Landorus-T dont help either.

Manectric (Mega): Rise to B+
Im not completely sold on this but intimidate+speed+volt switch is great and it can at least threaten Excadrill, which is huge.

Aerodactyl (Mega): No Opinion
Never used it. Barely faced it. Ill let others decide here.

Scizor: Drop to B
Poor Scizor. Not a bad poke on but outclassed by its mega. It's Choice Band set is really only deserving of B....I guess one could argue it can perfrom the same roles as Mega Scizor but without taking up a mega slot, still though, i think B is good.

Manaphy: Drop to B+
Ive only used it and faced it a few times but it doesnt seem as effective as the other mons in A-. Im not entirely sure of this but i think B+ is right.

Alakazam (Mega): No Opinion
Just about to test a team i made around this guy cuz ive never used and rarely faced him. I might edit in more later.

Lucario: Drop to B-
Even with the recent banning of Aegislash I still think Lucario should probably drop. This is a little overdue.

Starmie: Stay in B
Ive been using Starmie on a new team of mine and unfortunately i really cant see it in B+, B is fine for now. I find that depending on the set it's either too frail or too weak.

Celebi: Rise to B
I used Celebi on a team of mine right after the Aegislash ban and it actually checks a good amount of things and has a few good sets and support moves. B is a good fit.

Staraptor: Rise to B
Not sure why this didnt happen the last update...or the update before that...

Victini: No Opinion
Stalltini is really good and was very underrated a long time ago. Im on the fence about this one.

Magnezone: Rise to B+
Right now I'm happily on the Magnezone bandwagon because Skarmory, Scizor, and Ferrothorn are bitches. Could be a little overhyped though.

Garchomp (Mega): Drop to B
I honestly wouldve wanted this guy at B- but I saw a few good arguements supporting it so B sounds good. I guess i could still see it in B+ but I think its about time it drops.


Omastar: Rise to B-
Specs Omastar is just so good in the rain. I get that it faces stiff competition from Kingdra (who it can team up with) and has terrible synergy with Kabutops. One rank below Kingdra and two ranks below Kabutops sound good.

Shuckle: Rise to B-
Stealth Rock + Sticky Web + Sturdy + Encore + Good Bulk = Amazing. Shuckle supports sticky web teams tremendously, almost the sole reason as to why they are viable. I think it belongs one step above Azelf who is currenrly in C+ as well and should really move to B-

Crawdaunt: Rise to B-
Crawdaunt is an incredible wall breaker, has two great STABs, powerful priority, good boosting moves, and is almost impossible to switch into. Crawdaunt functions exceptionally well on sticky web, trick room, and rain teams. Although it faces competition from one of the tiers best pokemon, Azumarill, I think it is well deserving of B- because it is a much better and more powerful wall breaker than Azumarill, unfortunately it suffers from poor defenses and doesnt have Azu's godly typing.

Wobbuffet: Rise to C+
I tried Wobbuffet for the first time the other day after being inspired by the RMT "Oh No, It's Wobbuffet" and i was very impressed. Personally i think its better than goth as a shadow tag user, however, it functions differently as goth is designed to remove specific threats while Wobbuffet doesnt do that exactly. I created a core of Wobbuffet and Charizard X. The idea is Wobbufett can effectively trap weak scarfers and variants of Azumarill to pave the way for a Zard X sweep. Unlike goth, wobbuffet can actually switch into these targets as well. Secondly, Wobbuffet can encore something into a useless move and give a teammate not only a free switch, but a free turn to set up as well. For obvious reasons this makes Wobb an even better Zard X teammate (or any boosting sweeper really). Wobb also can set up safeguard to prevent annoying status on my other pokemon. This is especially true if Wobbuffet encored a target into a status move which is really common as they all fear counter coat. Finally despite lacking reliable recovery, Wobb can encore slower targets all day to recover using its leftovers. This is really annoying however very effective.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-154680105
In this replay I tricked a Slowbro into using Scald so Wobbuffet could take it out, which lead to a Zard X sweep. Wobbuffet is faster than Slowbro so it can switch into Scald and Encore it.

Keldeo: Drop to A+
Ive already talked about this and quoted myself a lot on this, im sick of doing it so go back a few pages (or to page 2 i think) if you havent seen any of my posts.
 
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My thoughts based on laddering experience:

Tyranitar (Mega): A+ -> A
Venusaur (Mega): A+ -> A

They are facing competitions from other Megas as the metagame has changed a lot recently. I just don't find Mega Tyranitar that threatening when Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion are quite common. Sand Rush Excadrill is very common now and will take advantage of Tyrantiar's sand to beat it. Also, I'd hate having to rely on Stone Miss. As for Mega Venusaur, the rise of Mega Gard and Mega Medicham kinda hurts it.

Ferrothorn: A -> A+
This thing still walls a lot. Rain teams are more viable now and virtually every rain team I've seen carries Ferrothorn.

Landorus-T: A -> A+
The Scarf set is great. Checks a lot of top tier threats like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. Can be used to gain momentum with U-turn. Can intimidate Mega Medicham and U-Turn out.

Scizor: B+ -> B
Manaphy: A- -> B+
Lucario: B -> B-


Celebi: B- -> B
Celebi should definitely rise. It's anti-meta right now, checking a lot of things like Keldeo, Lati twins, and other special attackers. Can run different sets and can set up stealth rock as well. It is also a great check to rain teams, especially ones relying on Swift Swim Kingdra. Quadruple weakness to U-turn kinda sucks, though.

Magnezone: B -> B+
I find that the scarf set is also viable in addition to specs. Hits Mega Gard pretty hard with Flash Cannon.

Also, I think Mega Char X should stay in S. Still very threatening and versatile. The meta game change so far hasn't really been hostile to it in my opinion.
 
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Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
Celebi for B, most definitely. Having great utility in Perish Song, Thunder wave (literally the greatest fuck you to most SpA attackers), STAB, amazing typing that allows it to check a variety of threats, solid stats, U-turn for momentum, being able to set SR, Heal Bell, Recover, Healing wish....

This thing can do so much, and check w/e you need it to. Between BP, Phazing, statusing top tier attackers, this thing can do it all. Taking on Keldeo, the latis, being able to cripple obvious switchings like Zards and Mpinsir, Being able to Baton Pass boosts. It is held back by it's typing, which can make it easy setup fodder from certain attackers, but access to Thunder Wave (especially if revealed before they attempt to setup on you) often can deter them, and imo that doesn't stop it from doing it's job as a fantastic pivot, which is arguably its best set right now.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
I feel as though Gardevoir should stay A rank. There is a lot it could with Hyper Voice, but its really frail Physically. 68, 65 isn't all that great and most Gardevoirs don't invest in those stats. It can't really switch in on any physical attack that is neutral or stab.
 
Guess I'll talk about Pokemon I haven't talked about I'll edit out the ones I don't have an opinion of

Mew: A ---> A+ Holy shit is this a pain to deal with, I formely thought it shouldn't move up but after facing this more I wouldn't mind moving it up at all. Even offense has trouble against because nothing want to get it's item knocked off or get burned.

Garchomp: A+ ---> A The scarf set is a really great cleaner/revenge killer and can be used as a lead or SD or defensive Rocky Helmet. I think it should stay there.

Gyarados (Mega): A+ ---> A Stay in A+ imo, intimidate gives it plenty of chances to set up and has a great typing as well and has Mold Breaker to get past Unaware users and Rotom-W as well as Dragonite and Mega Venusaur. Can also run Sub and Taunt and DD with Rest which destroys unprepared teams.

Heracross (Mega): A ---> A+ Mega Heracross is sooo good. It should move up, you don't need sticky web it really just needs to switch in on something that can't kill it or outspeed it. It's also really nice against Mamo and Breloom leads.

Venusaur (Mega): A+ ---> A Ehh haven't used it much but it does have a ton of moves like Sleep Powder and what not as well as handling top OU mons like Keldeo and Azu but idk about this one.

Ferrothorn: A ---> A+ Definitely. A well played Ferrothorn can be so devastating. A lot of players just try to burn it because it won't die but if you play it well and don't let it get burned it becomes more a pain in the ass.

Landorus-T: A ---> A+ I think it should happen. Has both really good sets in Scarf and SR setter but can also run SD plus Rock Polish.

Suicune: B+ ---> A- Stay in B+ because it's too reliant on Scald burns and Sleep Talk picking the right move.

Raikou: B ---> B+ B is fine. It's essentially a worse Mega Manetric that still gets the job done and doesn't take up your mega slot which is why it's B

Scizor: B+ ---> B imo stay in B+. CB is still really good and under prepared for, a lot of people just switch in their Heatran to get smacked by a Superpower and it can also run SD with LO as well

Actually yeah move Raikou up, wasn't really thinking when I was writing about it but yeah it can run AV, Calm Mind, Specs which are all viable as well as checking most if not all of what Mega Manetric checks without taking up the Mega Slot.
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I think Mega Garchomp should drop. It requires team-specific support (Sand Stream from T-Tar or Hippo) to justify using it over Kyurem-B and even then it restricts teambuilding to an extent. While the same can be said for Kabutops (who shares the same rank), Kabutops has several relevant perks over its competition (hits harder with a better neutral STAB, is way faster with Swift Swim, can sweep/clean, can't be revenged by Talonflame) and doesn't take up your Mega slot. The only perks Mega Garchomp has over Kyurem-B are different coverage, a better defensive typing with a SR resist (but comes with an Water neutrality and Ice Shard weakness), and the ability to get past Ferrothorn easier. This comes at the cost of the item slot, Mega slot (obviously), lack of versatility in sets (1 set vs. Kyurem-B's 4 something), and the ability to check top-tier threats like Azumarill.

I probably missed some perks that Mega Garchomp has, but that's why the reply button exists. Also it's late and I should sleep.
 
I guess i am just wasting my time writing this but i will do it anyway.

I am realy, REALY against moving Ferrothorn up. I cant understand why most people here praise it that much, i've tried it on like 10 different teams because of all the praise it gets here but every single time i end up replacing it with something else.

The most important reason is that its simply not reliable as a check/counter. Everything it wants to stop can run sets/moves to get past it. HP fire on the likes of Latis, Greninja, Fire Punch on Dragonite/Tyranitar/Garchomp, Superpower on Azumarill. Hell even Gyara can break it with Taunt. Ferrothorn is only going to check something if the opponent didnt realy care about it during teambuilding, most likely because the rest of his team can handle it very well. What makes it even worse is that he dies so fast against things with fire coverage. Physical defensive sets are often ohkoed and even with special defense invest you will take ~80%. You bring it in to check something and next turn your virtualy or literally down one mon, that sucks hard imo. And fire coverage is almost everywhere because it hits steeltypes in general and Scizor/Ferro in particular. Now one could argue that this shows how good it is, but first, thats only halfway true since its not only Ferro thats dealt with by that coverage and second, it still lowers its viability. When Flying/Psychic was everywhere Venu was demoted as well because it couldnt check the things it wanted reliably but now you want to move Ferro up despite fire coverage beeing everywhere.

Next issue is recovery. Yes leech seed is annoying as hell. But its also one of the worst ways of healing because it relies on 50/50s to work, especially if used along with protect. Everytime you applied it to something you have to guess. Protect or Leech Seed? And everytime you guess wrong the opponent gets a free turn. Because of that its pretty easy to wear down from experience. It comes in against something, takes like 30%, applies leech seed while taking another 30% and then it totaly depends on guessing. If the opponent switches to something that can force it out while you go for protect Ferro will have to leave with half his life unable to do its job for the rest of the match. And even if you guess right you just have to guess again next turn.

Then there is its pathetic speed and offensive coverage/presence. Yes Power Whip hits hard, against the few things it wants to hit (Azu and Gyara basicly) but against pretty much everything else it does nothing at all. Same goes for Gyro Ball which is useless against slow mons and resisted by many faster mons. Because of that its deadweight against Stall (i used Knockoff most of the time to at least somewhat compensate that). Its also complete taunt bait, does nothing against the likes of Mew, Taunt Mandy and others exept giving free turns.
 
I guess i am just wasting my time writing this but i will do it anyway.

I am realy, REALY against moving Ferrothorn up. I cant understand why most people here praise it that much, i've tried it on like 10 different teams because of all the praise it gets here but every single time i end up replacing it with something else.

The most important reason is that its simply not reliable as a check/counter. Everything it wants to stop can run sets/moves to get past it. HP fire on the likes of Latis, Greninja, Fire Punch on Dragonite/Tyranitar/Garchomp, Superpower on Azumarill. Hell even Gyara can break it with Taunt. Ferrothorn is only going to check something if the opponent didnt realy care about it during teambuilding, most likely because the rest of his team can handle it very well. What makes it even worse is that he dies so fast against things with fire coverage. Physical defensive sets are often ohkoed and even with special defense invest you will take ~80%. You bring it in to check something and next turn your virtualy or literally down one mon, that sucks hard imo. And fire coverage is almost everywhere because it hits steeltypes in general and Scizor/Ferro in particular. Now one could argue that this shows how good it is, but first, thats only halfway true since its not only Ferro thats dealt with by that coverage and second, it still lowers its viability. When Flying/Psychic was everywhere Venu was demoted as well because it couldnt check the things it wanted reliably but now you want to move Ferro up despite fire coverage beeing everywhere.

Next issue is recovery. Yes leech seed is annoying as hell. But its also one of the worst ways of healing because it relies on 50/50s to work, especially if used along with protect. Everytime you applied it to something you have to guess. Protect or Leech Seed? And everytime you guess wrong the opponent gets a free turn. Because of that its pretty easy to wear down from experience. It comes in against something, takes like 30%, applies leech seed while taking another 30% and then it totaly depends on guessing. If the opponent switches to something that can force it out while you go for protect Ferro will have to leave with half his life unable to do its job for the rest of the match. And even if you guess right you just have to guess again next turn.

Then there is its pathetic speed and offensive coverage/presence. Yes Power Whip hits hard, against the few things it wants to hit (Azu and Gyara basicly) but against pretty much everything else it does nothing at all. Same goes for Gyro Ball which is useless against slow mons and resisted by many faster mons. Because of that its deadweight against Stall (i used Knockoff most of the time to at least somewhat compensate that). Its also complete taunt bait, does nothing against the likes of Mew, Taunt Mandy and others exept giving free turns.
Honestly, I beg to differ. Ferrothorn is actually a pretty brain dead pokemon. Azu's don't carry Superpower anymore because AV set spams PR and Knock off. Choice banded sets are the ones that use Superpower but they are not only pretty rare but Knock Off is still the superior choice tbh.

I would honestly say that Ferrothorn is very much more used as a pivot/utility mon and less of a check/counter. Simply because of how much tanking capabilities it has. Although I do agree that fire coverage is common as heck and the rise of Mag + Physical Mega of choice core makes Ferrothorn's ability to check/counter pokes less stellar, but that doesn't make it any less great of a poke. Inexperienced players will be unable to take this mon down easily and even experienced players will have a certain degree of difficulty taking it down exactly because Fire coverage is so common and predictable.

Recovery isn't really much of a worry because leech seed stall is good enough to force switches and by then you would've achieved your role as a pivot.

It isn't actually complete taunt bait. But it definitely lacks presence that's for sure. But imo as a utility mon (Knock Off is a move choice of Ferro and aids in its work as a utility mon), I think it has just the right movepool to support the team and help make your opponent's life hell.

tl;dr - Ferro is good and worth the move up to A+.
 
It's true that Ferrothorn is a really good mon in OU but it's also true that by now the metagame has adapted for it. Lati Twins run often HP Fire, Greninja HP Fire is also a thing, Fire Punch Mega TTar, HP Fire Venusaur and Focus Blast Thundurus (before that Masterclass popularised his RMT with Ferrothorn Focus Blast Thundurus was less common, now every Thundurus has it) are all nowadays quite common because of Ferrothorn as well (not just for it of course, FC Thundurus is also good to hit TTars for example, or HP Fire Venusaur to hit Scizor). In addition to that, the rising in usage of things like Heracross, Gardevoir (Focus Blast), Medicham and Terrakion doesn't help Ferrothorn either. If you just give a look at the S and A+ ranks you will see that Ferrothorn loses against the majority of mons. It was probably A+ rank at the time of Masterclass' RMT but now many months are gone and the metagame has adapted to it and so it isn't a big threat anymore since teams always carry something for it. It's for sure a good mon that deserves the A rank, but the A+ rank seems too high for it to my eyes.

Also make Goodra C+ rank please, it doesn't just fits with the other C rank mons like Bronzong, Mega Houndoom and Regular Alakazam, it's one of the best specially tank in the game and it has a great coverage as well, being able to hit quite hard almost everything and to not be setup fodder for the opp. Checking things like Thundurus, Greninja and Landorus is also nice for offensive / balanced teams where it's used. Also respect the mons I mentioned before it can be seen sometimes in tours, and that's another fact that proves that it's quite good in XY OU. C+ rank is fine imo
 
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I think Mega Garchomp should drop. It requires team-specific support (Sand Stream from T-Tar or Hippo) to justify using it over Kyurem-B and even then it restricts teambuilding to an extent. While the same can be said for Kabutops (who shares the same rank), Kabutops has several relevant perks over its competition (hits harder with a better neutral STAB, is way faster with Swift Swim, can sweep/clean, can't be revenged by Talonflame) and doesn't take up your Mega slot. The only perks Mega Garchomp has over Kyurem-B are different coverage, a better defensive typing with a SR resist (but comes with an Water neutrality and Ice Shard weakness), and the ability to get past Ferrothorn easier. This comes at the cost of the item slot, Mega slot (obviously), lack of versatility in sets (1 set vs. Kyurem-B's 4 something), and the ability to check top-tier threats like Azumarill.

I probably missed some perks that Mega Garchomp has, but that's why the reply button exists. Also it's late and I should sleep.
As -clone- previously said, Mega-Garchomp doesn't require sand to be threatening, but it does appreciate it. Just having Tyranitar on your team is no greater support then packing a dedicated hazard remover imo.

(just enough speed ev's to outrun jolly breloom, which is all Chomp really needs imo)

80+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Sand: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 257-304 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's true that kabutops hits harder than the standard mixed set, which runs only 4 Atk ev's, but in all honesty, what does garchomp need that speed for? It's a wallbreaker, not a sweeper.

Also,

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 208-246 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Garchomp's physical bulk, even uninvested, still allows it to take a hit or two, and since garchomp resists Stealth rocks, it's not hard to keep it healthy enough to take a brave bird.

With that physical bulk, garchomp is able to check azumarill.

80+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Sand: 310-366 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

As compared to,

52 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 284-336 (71.3 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Garchomp is only taking 30-35% from a choice band aqua jet, more than kyurem, but not enough to pose a threat.

As for the different sets, I'm not arguing with you there. The only variation you should see from Mega-Garchomp is the speed ev's. And although the Honkalculator lists 5 sets for mega-garchomp, one of them says "OU Choice Scarf" so I'm not too keen to trust it's reliability.

Mega-Garchomp should remain in B+.
 

Jukain

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i disagree with dropping mega venusaur. i kinda have a feeling that cbb will make sure this stays a+ anyways but i still wanted to post. first lemme get out of the way that the only relevant set is offensive megasaur. defensive sets are about as irrelevant as it gets.

mega venusaur offers a lot to bulky offensive, balanced, and even defensive teams with incredible defensive stats, nice defensive typing that allows it to cover a lot of threats, and solid power to put severe hurt on opposing pokemon in the process. mega venusaur covers numerous top threats that bulky offensive teams struggle with, including azumarill, keldeo, non-psychic/hp fly thundurus, mega gyarados, and ferrothorn (also crocune which can be a threat depending on the team), making it a valuable team member, while not disrupting the tempo of offense. mega venusaur is strong. its sludge bomb does 50% to latios, like 70-75% to talonflame, almost 3/4 to thundurus, over half to non-spdef zard x, and over half to kyurem-b. its giga drain easily 2hkoes the likes of excadrill, and even severely damages things like ttar in sand, normal gyarados, and landt. its hidden power fire easily destroys what it needs to. i'm not saying this is the pinnacle of strength, but when you're talking about a mon that can check/counter so many things, this is very impressive. mega venusaur is an unmatched tank. it doesn't 'face competition with gard/hera/cham', lol. these pokemon fulfill different roles on a team. if you're talking about the tendency of people to use megas for stallbreaking, i guess that's a consideration, but these pokemon require significantly more support to function well on a team, while mega venusaur is a very easy pokemon to fit onto a team. sand is kind of a problem but giga drain's recovery still helps it out a lot, sand isn't up forever, and it's not like synth does /nothing/ in sand (ie if venu is at 50% it's better to have a 76% venu after sand than a 50% venu, still). none of these factors are enough to drop mega venusaur by any means.
 

alexwolf

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Here is the next update:

Mew: Stays in A
Garchomp: A+ ---> A
Mega Charizard X: Stays in S
Tyranitar (Mega): A+ ---> A
Gyarados (Mega): Stays in A+
Heracross (Mega): A ---> A+
Gardevoir (Mega): Stays in A
Venusaur (Mega): Stays in A+
Ferrothorn: A ---> A+
Hippowdon: A ---> A-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Suicune: Stays in B+
Raikou: Stays in B
Manectric (Mega): B ---> B+
Aerodactyl (Mega): B ---> B+
Scizor: B+ ---> B
Manaphy: A- ---> B+
Alakazam (Mega): B ---> B+
Lucario: B ---> B-
Starmie: B ---> B+
Celebi: B- ---> B
Staraptor: B- ---> B
Victini: B ---> B+
Magnezone: B ---> B+
Garchomp (Mega): B+ ---> B


Not going to talk about all those changes as i do usually, as all the reasoning for them has been provided in the last couple pages. The only three Pokemon i am going to talk about is Mew, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Heracross.

A lot of people wanted Mew to move up to A+, but in the end we decided that Mew is not as metagame defining or as hard to prepare for as most A+ Pokemon. Fire-types and Gliscor shut it down for the most part or at least give it serious troubles, faster offensive Pokemon with Sub dgaf about it (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gyarados, Sub Terrakion), and because it wants to take its time to leave its mark, it's not that effective against offensive teams. Mew is a great Defog user and a great staller with WoW + Taunt + Knock Off, but it's lack of offensive presence is a serious problem against offensive teams and Fire-types, which is the main reason for keeping it in A.

Mega Charizard X stays in S rank because of its versatility. It has two clear A+ sets in BulkyWisp and SD + Tailwind, and when you take into account bulky DD + Roost, DD + 3 attacks, and Roost + 3 attacks, there is no 100% safe way to play around this thing. Also, with our standards of S rank getting more lax the minute we included Keldeo there, Charizard X also being there is perfectly logical.

Mega Heracross goes in A+ because it's the best of the three wallbreaking Megas (Medi and Gardy being the other two), because unlike them it has great all around bulk, and punishes switches like no other of them can, thanks to access to Swords Dance. This makes Mega Heracross the epitome of an effective wallbreaker and a great choice against any playstyle, where Mega Gardevoir and Mega Medicham can struggle to leave their mark against offensive, and even some stall teams (especially Mega Gardy). Also, Mega Heracross requires the less prediction out of those three to work, because Mega Gardevoir often has to rely on Focus Miss or WoW on predicted switches, and Mega Medicham has to rely on High Jump Kick while still getting walled by bulky Psychic-types. Not to mention that Mega Heracross massacres half your typical sand team, being able to beat one on one all of Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill, while being able to take advantage of the former two's presence to do big damage.

Changes to discuss

Hawlucha: C+ ---> B-
Omastar: C+ ---> B-
Empoleon: D ---> C-
Goodra: C ---> C+
Haxorus: D ---> C / C-
Jirachi: C ---> C+
Doublade: C- ---> C
Forretress: Unranked ---> D
Froslass: D ---> C-
Azelf: C+ ---> B-
Blastoise (Mega): C+ ---> C
Rotom-H: C+ ---> C
Volcarona: C+ ---> C
Smeargle: C+ ---> C


Also, feel free to nominate unranked Pokemon to get in the list, as long as you provide solid reasoning.
 

AM

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Changes to discuss
Hawlucha: C+ ---> B-
Omastar: C+ ---> B-
Empoleon: D ---> C-
Goodra: C ---> C+
Haxorus: D ---> C / C-
Jirachi: C ---> C+
Doublade: C- ---> C
Forretress: Unranked ---> D
Froslass: D ---> C-
Azelf: C+ ---> B-
Blastoise (Mega): C+ ---> C
Rotom-H: C+ ---> C
Volcarona: C+ ---> C
Smeargle: C+ ---> C
Lol this popped up right when I got on the thread. Anyways some thoughts on things I personally know or have seen.
Omastar C+ -> B+ I think this needs to happen. I like to use Rain a lot cause it's a style that very few archetypes are prepared for. Normally when I build I use Kabutops but as of lately I've been using Omastar and to be honest I think it's just much more efficient in the OU environment than Kabutops is. Omastar has a bit better bulk so its lack of priority is compensated for the fact that it can withstand the majority of priority moves in the tier. Specs Omastar and in some rare cases Life Orb if you want more options for move choices, is honestly much more efficient. I think what solidifies my idea of moving it up is the fact that it has access to Scald. This is in a similar vein to Keldeo where if the options of what move to use next is a tough one, it's usually safe to just use Scald and fish for a burn, on top of the fact it's more than likely Rain boosted + Specs. The way Omastar is usually ran in terms of spreads allows it to not be total deadweight without Rain as well as 209 speed (assuming Modest) isn't that bad against stuff like TTar and some of the slower threats in the tier. I'm for this moving up due to it being a fast, fantastic wall breaker in Rain.

Doublade C- -> C I'll be honest, I think Doublade should stay in C- in terms of how viable it actually is. The thing is, I believe that it's better than some of the C ranks so I'm going off the fact that it should reside in that ranking. I think Doublade is a fantastic check to some of the wallbreakers in the tier. The problem I think is that when Doublade is put on a team to handle these threats, it's given the illusion that it's a more efficient team player to handle M-Hera, M-Garde, M-Cham, when in reality the team is inherently a bit worse in losing something to handle more stuff in the tier. Sure we can argue that those 3 mentioned threats are pretty big, but then we miss so much stuff to actually handle such things as AV Azu, Thundy, Landos, Charizards, Keldeo, the list kind of goes on. Doublade needs to be built around a specific build to actually synergies properly and because of that I believe it should either stay in C- due to its apparent flaws, or move to C cause it's better than some of the stuff there.

Azelf C+ -> B- Ok I've been seeing this a lot on hyper offense. It's pretty easy for Azelf to set up on a lot of stuff especially when it's backed up by wicked strong power houses, which it usually is. I'm going off of its Screens and Lead set with Explosion for moving this up, as I think they are good enough to warrant it to B-. Its other sets like LO attacker and Rain support I think are not good at all and doesn't truly reflect its viability what so ever. Taunt helps with stall breaking which is always appreciated, Hyper Offense behind screens is very dangerous, especially within 8 turns when the match might already be half way done by then, and Explosion on the non screen sets is stupid strong and saves HO the problem of switching into stuff when the Azelf player now has a clean slate to begin the matchup fresh. Move up imo.

Volcarona C+ -> C+ I think Volcarona is an underrated threat in terms of where it stands in its viability. Most times, I see people using it terribly and using these old ass move sets that leaves me scratching my head thinking man they could've used that way better. I think an offensive Volcarona with some good timing can put a dent in a lot of relevant stuff which can make it a monster sometimes. However it does have some flaws you can't ignore such as shitty physical bulk, x4 weakness to SR, wanting to run a good amount of stuff at once. I think though, in terms of how it fairs with the C+ and C ranked mons, its more suitable in C+ than it is with the C ranked mons.

Forretress Unranked ...... Unranked I'm still against moving this up. This thing is just garbage plain and simple. I'll admit most of the D rank stuff is better than Forretress and sure I understand Rapid Spinners are more in demand than Defog users are in this current meta, but it doesn't change the fact that Forre doesn't really warrant an actual team position on a competent build. We have lots of stuff that does every single role that Forretress can accomplish but better, or it has stuff it can do that is irrelevant for the most part. You know what Forretress does better? Slow Volt Switches and that's it. If momentum Stall is your thing (I kind of used this in the past but apparently it's becoming an actual defined thing now) then by all means maybe you can use it. Other than that I don't see how Forre truly warrants a ranking on this thread. Keep it unranked.
 
I've been using Froslass lately and it's a decent mon. It's usually able to get two layers of Spikes (one is pretty much guaranteed) but aside from that it doesn't accomplish a whole lot. Very rarely will you get a kill with Destiny Bond because it's easy to see coming and nobody wants you to get a free kill. It does however have a fast Taunt which renders Defogging impossible and a Ghost-typing to prevent Rapid Spin, so if you get up Spikes they're there to stay. The most problematic things for Froslass are faster mons like Greninja, Sandstream and priority users like Azumarill and Scizor because they limit you to 1 layer of Spikes which is usually not worth sacrificing a mon for. Also not all teams are very Spikes-weak; if your opponent has 4 or more Levitators/Flying-types Froslass becomes a whole lot less useful. Icy Wind is a pretty cool move though; you can come in on Dragonite's Dragon Dance if your Sash is intact, go for Icy Wind and 2HKO it because you're immune to E-Speed. You can also make mons slower than you after your Sash breaks, force them out with the threat of Destiny Bond and possibly get two layers of Spikes rather than just one. Cursed Body has allowed me an extra layer of Spikes too frequently but I guess hax is not really an argument...

Everything considered Froslass is not a good mon but it's usable and better than D rank... So I support it moving up to C-.
 

Clone

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alexwolf can you please explain why Megachomp moved down? There wasn't a lot of discussion on it bar a few posts, and it was about even for both sides.
 
Meh. I don't see what Forry does, really. Has no offensive presence meaning defoggers and spinners aren't scared of it (it can't do squat to Starmie or Excadrill) and it's just setup fodder for things in general, has no recovery and is slow as shit meaning its bulk is easily worn down, and the Steel nerf made things a bit worse. It gets Spikes but Spikes are meh in such a fast metagame. Donphan of all things is better than Forretress--at least it has a nice STAB off a good Attack stat and some priority (ass priority, but hey, it's better in a pinch) and actually resists SR. Let's keep it unranked.
 
While we're talking about C+ rank mons, I've suggested Crawdaunt for B- several times and encountered no opposition. This thing only has one good switch in in the entire OU tier. It's got the strongest water priority and Knock Off in the game. Thanks to Adaptability, this thing is demolishing even after intimidate and resisted hits. Give this thing a free switch in, and more often than not something is gonna die.
 
I would actually like to nominate Jellicent for C/C+. After this metagame shift, Ghost and Dark type attacks are much less that it previously did. But more importantly, there is a huge rise in the threats that Jellicent beat. In a metagame dominated by sand, Jellicent beats a lot of common stuff on sand teams if played well. Support Ttar only hits for 27 - 32.2% with a burned Crunch, Ferrothorn without Power Whip loses to the combination of Taunt and burns, Keldeo get hard countered unless it has Specs HP Electric, Excadril and Landorus-T don't like getting WoWed after their first hit, and after being burned you lose the ability to 2HKO.

On defensive teams, Jellicent fares really well against the Medicham and Heracross, both of which failing to 2HKO Jellicent reliably and getting WoWed in return. Cursed Body is a really handy ability to screw with Heracross, who has a 83.193% chance of getting his Rock Blast disabled (which is higher than the chance Stone Edge hits). Against other common stuff like Clefable and Suicune that screw with stall, Jellicent has a handy access to Taunt to shut down their set up and recovery. With Water Absorb, Jellicent makes a perfect counter for CroCune. Access to WoW+Taunt+Recover also meant it can serve as a makeshift Mew to break down other stall teams with ease.

Other than said niches, Jellicent is one of the few spinblockers that can block standard Starmie (since standard uses Psyshock > Tbolt). Burned AV Azumarill can barely 4HKO. Gyarados find it decently hard to get past Jellicent without being crippled in one way or another. Jellicent can even survive the 2HKO from Lati@s with zero investment. Walling a big part of rain offense is also really cool to have.
 
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