Despite being new, and probably nobody here recognizes my name, I decided to post my two cents on this topic. I am leaning towards Option 2. My reasoning for that is that Baton Pass teams I have found don't need more than 3 Baton Passer's to make it effective, and are usually fairly easy to counter. I did this battle ( http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-102080502 ) and used only 2 pokemon with Baton Pass, and only after around 5 battles was this Dunsparce sweep successful. If I would have edited the moveset on Scolipede and Mew, I could've had all of the stats (other than Special Attack) maxed out.
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
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From my experience on the ladder (which isn't that much yet, but enough to see some trends), using bp is impossible, and instead a all I need is a well balanced team to be pretty successful against all the people expecting to beat bp with their counters. I happened to choose a team with a talonflame, so mediocre bp players are easy to beat as well, but bp players who know what they're doing have a 7-1 record against me, and the 1 is just from a lucky crit.
Even in the lower end of things, this is clearly not a healthy meta.
They've even beaten me without the use of espeon, so I don't think option 3 is even enough, I'm for option 2.
Even in the lower end of things, this is clearly not a healthy meta.
They've even beaten me without the use of espeon, so I don't think option 3 is even enough, I'm for option 2.
Ah, glad that BP teams are getting attention for a nerf !
I think it's an issue that should've been adressed since at least last gen, but better late than never ! It has always been a controversial issue since it's not easy to find a compromise (some people, myself included, wanted to suspect the move baton pass back in Excadrill/Thundurus Suspect in gen 5, even tho it has some legit uses outside of BP chains). Just like Swagger teams which got nerfed last suspect, it has always been something we all hate facing or losing to (for relevant players, at least).
Basically, if you don't bring (very) specific counters to it, like prankster taunt (commonly taunt thundurus and sableye, even tho the two of them arent that common, especially the later), priority set-up sweepers (which can be played around, even tho flying mons are lethal if the opponent doesnt play zapdos or something), perish song (does that move even exist?) or haze (lol), you've basically lost the match (without taking in account well timed crit, but hue). Another thing that makes BP teams lethal is the move Stored Power, which can bypass the Unaware issue and, more generally, make those teams unstoppable. For instance, you just need seven boosts (which arent hard to get with speed boost, vapo's acid armor etc), taking in account a +6 boost in SpA to ohko 252hp Aegislash with 0 SpA Espeon (just taking a random example, but i think it's pretty relevant on its potential).
It's a very matchup reliant playstyle, but my point is its answers are so specific that you just cant include them on every build. Even if you're playing priority set-up mons, which are commons in xy (bd azu, diggersby, talon, pinsir..), if you lose your "only" occasion of cripple their strategy (which are based for the most part on 50/50 with vaporeon n shit), you can just wipe your salty tears with the -30 that you just got by wasting your time on a pointless match. Even your average novice player can do things with it with little to no effort (i.e not to choke), since it's a very linear playstyle which doesnt require much thinking to make it work.
About the suggested options, at first glance i think the second option is better, but i havn't put enough thoughts on it atm.
That's my two cents about what i think is one of the biggest bane of competitive metagame. I'll elaborate more on that later since i just threw my thoughts in a unorganised way.
Since everything is better with pics, here's one that sum up p.well the feelings when facing BPs
tl;dr : bp are gay, nerf pls
I think it's an issue that should've been adressed since at least last gen, but better late than never ! It has always been a controversial issue since it's not easy to find a compromise (some people, myself included, wanted to suspect the move baton pass back in Excadrill/Thundurus Suspect in gen 5, even tho it has some legit uses outside of BP chains). Just like Swagger teams which got nerfed last suspect, it has always been something we all hate facing or losing to (for relevant players, at least).
Basically, if you don't bring (very) specific counters to it, like prankster taunt (commonly taunt thundurus and sableye, even tho the two of them arent that common, especially the later), priority set-up sweepers (which can be played around, even tho flying mons are lethal if the opponent doesnt play zapdos or something), perish song (does that move even exist?) or haze (lol), you've basically lost the match (without taking in account well timed crit, but hue). Another thing that makes BP teams lethal is the move Stored Power, which can bypass the Unaware issue and, more generally, make those teams unstoppable. For instance, you just need seven boosts (which arent hard to get with speed boost, vapo's acid armor etc), taking in account a +6 boost in SpA to ohko 252hp Aegislash with 0 SpA Espeon (just taking a random example, but i think it's pretty relevant on its potential).
It's a very matchup reliant playstyle, but my point is its answers are so specific that you just cant include them on every build. Even if you're playing priority set-up mons, which are commons in xy (bd azu, diggersby, talon, pinsir..), if you lose your "only" occasion of cripple their strategy (which are based for the most part on 50/50 with vaporeon n shit), you can just wipe your salty tears with the -30 that you just got by wasting your time on a pointless match. Even your average novice player can do things with it with little to no effort (i.e not to choke), since it's a very linear playstyle which doesnt require much thinking to make it work.
About the suggested options, at first glance i think the second option is better, but i havn't put enough thoughts on it atm.
That's my two cents about what i think is one of the biggest bane of competitive metagame. I'll elaborate more on that later since i just threw my thoughts in a unorganised way.
Since everything is better with pics, here's one that sum up p.well the feelings when facing BPs
tl;dr : bp are gay, nerf pls
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See, I'm leaning towards Option 2, because BP doesn't have to die, it just needs a nerf. 3 is not much to work with, but can fit in some key, but not all key, members of a full BP chain. As a whole chain, it sucks, but as a substyle to help with other styles, is not broken IMO. Just my opinion, I don't want your panties in a twist over this.
let's consider bp as a pokemon suspect for a minute. as a potentially broken threat, it's counters are very few and obscure. it also doesn't really have checks. when you're running obscure crap or very very limited things to handle something at all, usually it's pretty damn broken! i don't see what makes bp different in that aspect from mega luc or mega kanga or w/e. historically suspect ladders have been skewed because people abuse broken threat -> overpreparedness for said threat, just stating that it is the same situation for bp.
Mega Khan and Luke were determined to not have counters and still dominated the meta in their own respective suspect tests. Spot the difference yet? If counters are so rare and so obscure and horrible why does BP all of a sudden suck now that people have paired attention to it? People are still looking for one poke counter to an entire team... Can one pokemon counter HO? No? Then why not ban that as well.
To your last point if it was broken it would still be winning would it not? People were over prepared for khan and Luke weren't they?
I compare baton pass a lot to Stallbreaker Reuniclus of last gen, lot of people called for it to be banned last gen, but the meta adapted to it and its usage still died down. Its still absolutely destroys stall, but no one complains about it.
I think a major problem is no one is really trying to counter baton pass. Kang and them were major threats where people had to go out and try to counter them and mostly fail, Baton Pass I am only seeing a few people on normal ladder even trying to counter it. Most people on normal ladder seem to just be content running their normal team, get beat by baton pass and just say its broken rather than try to fix it.
Suspect ladder is showing baton pass can be beaten pretty well. You don't need 6 full prepared mons to beat it, but 1 counter and 1 check or so will do. Is it too much to ask to have people prepare a baton pass counter like they do MegaPinsir or MegaVenusaur?
I think a major problem is no one is really trying to counter baton pass. Kang and them were major threats where people had to go out and try to counter them and mostly fail, Baton Pass I am only seeing a few people on normal ladder even trying to counter it. Most people on normal ladder seem to just be content running their normal team, get beat by baton pass and just say its broken rather than try to fix it.
Suspect ladder is showing baton pass can be beaten pretty well. You don't need 6 full prepared mons to beat it, but 1 counter and 1 check or so will do. Is it too much to ask to have people prepare a baton pass counter like they do MegaPinsir or MegaVenusaur?
Just because you can beat a suspect doesn't make it any less broken. For example, Blaziken actually has several solid checks this gen and was still given the boot because it can steamroll a team if given any leeway, and it doesn't help that its best revenge killers (Talonflame and Azumarill) are easily countered by the same Pokemon (Rotom-W).
So a Stallbreaker breaks stall? WHO'D OF THUNK IT!?!?
In all seriousness, last gen was hostile to stall in general so the fact that there was something that could beat it 100% of the time was irrelevant. The giant microbe wasn't overcentralizing like Politoed and we had bigger fish to fry (like everything Drizzle broke in half).
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I'll save my opinion on mega blaze for another time. ;)
But to your point it's not just like you can beat it now and then. It's become ridiculously unviable on the ladder to the point where it's extremely hard to ladder with it. I'm pretty sure blaze was never at that point.
That is kind of the point I'm saying last gen stall was pretty irrelevant due to the meta, but smogon didn't do anything, it was left as is. Therefore arguing it kills a play style isn't a definitive argument. Also last gen the meta I feel was much more undesirable than this Gen with weather teams everywhere and anti weather teams also.
If the suspect isn't for the purpose of showing if something is dominating the suspect, what is the point of having the suspect at all?
I think a good case for nerfing BP chains can be seen here...
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119725061
That's right folks, people using BP chains just to do (what I call) "troll sweeps". Read the chat log as well. A Baltoy sweep!?! And why use a Metapod for your main attacker?!
What I've noticed is that most BP chain users aren't very skilled at all. I've taken down some just by letting them exhaust all of their BP and Protect PP or just waiting until they forfeit after their main attacker was taken out but have been unsuccessful against others.
Example of such battle (the former): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116077820
I disagree with using certain Pokemon with certain moves/abilities (Taunt, Perish Song, etc.) to counter BP chains. If those are the only moves/abilities able to counter a BP chain, it's very problematic to the metagame. Punishment is a VERY good move to counter stat-boosters but not many Pokemon can use that move, and again, why restrict your pokemon choices to those with that move?
If you'd ask me how it should be nerfed, I'd combine #2 and #3 (with minor tweaking). Something like:
No more than 3 pokemon with Baton Pass AND Protect.
Espeon can't have Magic Bounce and BP w/ Protect.
Scoliopede or Ninjask can't have Speed Boost and BP w/Protect.
Then again, I'm not voting on this so my recommendation is irrelevant.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119725061
That's right folks, people using BP chains just to do (what I call) "troll sweeps". Read the chat log as well. A Baltoy sweep!?! And why use a Metapod for your main attacker?!
What I've noticed is that most BP chain users aren't very skilled at all. I've taken down some just by letting them exhaust all of their BP and Protect PP or just waiting until they forfeit after their main attacker was taken out but have been unsuccessful against others.
Example of such battle (the former): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-116077820
I disagree with using certain Pokemon with certain moves/abilities (Taunt, Perish Song, etc.) to counter BP chains. If those are the only moves/abilities able to counter a BP chain, it's very problematic to the metagame. Punishment is a VERY good move to counter stat-boosters but not many Pokemon can use that move, and again, why restrict your pokemon choices to those with that move?
If you'd ask me how it should be nerfed, I'd combine #2 and #3 (with minor tweaking). Something like:
No more than 3 pokemon with Baton Pass AND Protect.
Espeon can't have Magic Bounce and BP w/ Protect.
Scoliopede or Ninjask can't have Speed Boost and BP w/Protect.
Then again, I'm not voting on this so my recommendation is irrelevant.
I really dislike the 3rd option because it seems really inelegant compared to a simple 3 chain limit.
Just snagged #1 on the suspect ladder and I didn't see a single baton pass team in the 47 games I played but idk if I was just lucky or not. It seems the entire ladder is just people trying to vote off bpass for good and there isn't anyone seriously considering not nerfing it at this point. denissss is persistently #1 on the regular ou ladder and is still difficult to beat even with "bp counters" so idk where you guys are getting the idea its not effective anymore. It's pretty clearly broken and has been for a long time even with haze on random shit like gengar and greninja its just too strong lol
I think a 2 man core of scolipede/espeon is pretty legit though and i would definitely like to see it kept around, it increases their viability by a lot and they still have room for 1 extra member so some other niche baton pass stuff like vaporeon/smeargle (though mr mime is finished lol) doesnt become completely unviable in ou again. Do people seriously want to see terrible full bpass chains with agility zapdos instead of scolipede? I'd much rather see creative picks in 3-4 slots that still leaves room for diverse team building.
Just snagged #1 on the suspect ladder and I didn't see a single baton pass team in the 47 games I played but idk if I was just lucky or not. It seems the entire ladder is just people trying to vote off bpass for good and there isn't anyone seriously considering not nerfing it at this point. denissss is persistently #1 on the regular ou ladder and is still difficult to beat even with "bp counters" so idk where you guys are getting the idea its not effective anymore. It's pretty clearly broken and has been for a long time even with haze on random shit like gengar and greninja its just too strong lol
I think a 2 man core of scolipede/espeon is pretty legit though and i would definitely like to see it kept around, it increases their viability by a lot and they still have room for 1 extra member so some other niche baton pass stuff like vaporeon/smeargle (though mr mime is finished lol) doesnt become completely unviable in ou again. Do people seriously want to see terrible full bpass chains with agility zapdos instead of scolipede? I'd much rather see creative picks in 3-4 slots that still leaves room for diverse team building.
Espeon runs protect? And um lolninjask.
Roar is a move that is more useful on bulky Pokemon. Haxorus has always been frail and is even more 1-Dimensional than it was last gen, so this is hardly a viable point.
But really... you would stoop that low to try and counter BP? That's saying something.
Yes but nobody good would use Espeon with protect on baton pass...
While I cannot make a vote myself, I just wanted to put my two cents into this discussion.
The problem I have with option 2 is that you can still have a viable BP chain with only 3 (Scolipede, Espeon, and another BP abuser), so I would be all for limiting it to one BP user per team rather than 3 (granted even that is imperfect since dedicated BP receivers exist). Option 3 is really the only way to go since then you remove the two main problems (BP Scolipede and BP Espeon).
Subject 18 edit: Removed mentions of a deleted post.
The problem I have with option 2 is that you can still have a viable BP chain with only 3 (Scolipede, Espeon, and another BP abuser), so I would be all for limiting it to one BP user per team rather than 3 (granted even that is imperfect since dedicated BP receivers exist). Option 3 is really the only way to go since then you remove the two main problems (BP Scolipede and BP Espeon).
Subject 18 edit: Removed mentions of a deleted post.
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Lil YoshiXD, Ender Wiggin: Here is the difference between the previous broken stuff and the current situation.
Mega Gengar, Mega Kanga, Mega Luke, Genesect, etc. are all cases of individual Pokemon on a 6-mon team. That means that they can have team support designed to eliminate their counters. (Or, in the case of Gengar, it was the support mon that could all but guarantee the elimination of whatever its teammates needed to sweep.
In the case of Baton Pass, the entire team is the broken suspect. There is only so far that Baton Pass teams can go in order to deal with their potential counters, meaning stuff like Haze Greninja or Roar Haxorus can theoretically either shut down a BP chain or else cause huge momentum loss. So, if everyone is expecting Baton Pass and brings an overabundance of BP counters, Baton Pass will have a very hard time setting up.
Run 1 BP counter on a balanced team? Hope your opponent can't break through quickly enough.
Build an entire team to counter BP? Well, good for you. Baton Pass will trouble you no more, so long as you have Talonflame/Mega Pinsir/Haze Greninja/Haze Quagsire/whatever other niche things counter Baton Pass. Have fun losing every other match in order to counter a fringe playstyle, though.
Baton Pass isn't just broken because of its lack of viable counters (although that is a major factor). It is also broken because it warps the metagame in a way that forces battles to be determined at matchup.
Mega Gengar, Mega Kanga, Mega Luke, Genesect, etc. are all cases of individual Pokemon on a 6-mon team. That means that they can have team support designed to eliminate their counters. (Or, in the case of Gengar, it was the support mon that could all but guarantee the elimination of whatever its teammates needed to sweep.
In the case of Baton Pass, the entire team is the broken suspect. There is only so far that Baton Pass teams can go in order to deal with their potential counters, meaning stuff like Haze Greninja or Roar Haxorus can theoretically either shut down a BP chain or else cause huge momentum loss. So, if everyone is expecting Baton Pass and brings an overabundance of BP counters, Baton Pass will have a very hard time setting up.
This. This is the problem. The entire meta proceeds to centralize around Baton Pass.
Run 1 BP counter on a balanced team? Hope your opponent can't break through quickly enough.
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 181-214 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (neutral damage because of Protean Haze. If Sylveon outspeeds or catches Greninja on the switch, it can't even get it off once.
Well, how about more offensive threats?
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. +2 4 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 99-117 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery -- Followed by Roar, and there's one failed check. Alternatively:
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 258-306 (94.8 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO -- if you decide to stay in, the BP team has a 31.2% chance of now sweeping you 5-0 instead of 6-0.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- oh look, baton pass into Zapdos to force it out, and from there it's GG.
Maybe I'm being unreasonable here. How about Prankster Taunt? Well, Mental Herb means that Scolipede can pass at least 1 speed boost without interruption.
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So even if you predict successfully and go for Nasty Plot on the Baton Pass instead of taunting a second time, Thundurus still loses to Sylveon, to say nothing of the fact that it hasn't even started to touch the chain if it taunts on Sylveon. At the end of this? You have a dead Thundurus and no hope of winning, and your opponent has a 50% Sylveon, a full health Scolipede, and an easy path to victory.
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 181-214 (63.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (neutral damage because of Protean Haze. If Sylveon outspeeds or catches Greninja on the switch, it can't even get it off once.
Well, how about more offensive threats?
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. +2 4 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 99-117 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery -- Followed by Roar, and there's one failed check. Alternatively:
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 258-306 (94.8 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO -- if you decide to stay in, the BP team has a 31.2% chance of now sweeping you 5-0 instead of 6-0.
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 236-282 (72.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- oh look, baton pass into Zapdos to force it out, and from there it's GG.
Maybe I'm being unreasonable here. How about Prankster Taunt? Well, Mental Herb means that Scolipede can pass at least 1 speed boost without interruption.
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 85-102 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 165-195 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So even if you predict successfully and go for Nasty Plot on the Baton Pass instead of taunting a second time, Thundurus still loses to Sylveon, to say nothing of the fact that it hasn't even started to touch the chain if it taunts on Sylveon. At the end of this? You have a dead Thundurus and no hope of winning, and your opponent has a 50% Sylveon, a full health Scolipede, and an easy path to victory.
Build an entire team to counter BP? Well, good for you. Baton Pass will trouble you no more, so long as you have Talonflame/Mega Pinsir/Haze Greninja/Haze Quagsire/whatever other niche things counter Baton Pass. Have fun losing every other match in order to counter a fringe playstyle, though.
Baton Pass isn't just broken because of its lack of viable counters (although that is a major factor). It is also broken because it warps the metagame in a way that forces battles to be determined at matchup.
Yes, some team archetypes are going to struggle against others. Baton Pass, however, is an extreme example of this. If you don't have a dedicated BP counter, you can't stop a BP team from setting up and sweeping. If this isn't a clear example of uncompetitiveness, I honestly don't know what is at this point.SwagPlay discussion thread said:
Amen, brother. Truer words have never been spoken. I find it ironic that when people are aware of its existence it bombs, but otherwise it prospers. To be frank, it is a playstyle that depends on people forgetting it exists.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
bãton pãss is truly frustrating to play against, save you are running HO, or shittons of dedicated BP counters. the fact baton pass is doing well in the environment the suspect ladder is, shows how broken it is. im not even gonna vote because we all know option 2 is gonna be the winning option. might as well not have option 1. I would pick option 2 because it is the most effective way to neuter BP teams to the point of unviability, while keeping collateral at a bare minimum. option 3, simply put, will not work. and option 1 is for denis fangirls. so if I bothered to ladder for it, I would vote option 2. get this shit outta here pronto.
The idea for this is to NERF baton pass, not to outright end it. I think a restriction of number will force baton pass teams to be more creative and diverse, as well as requiring more skill to build and play. Option 3 has too much collateral damage for me to be comfortable with.
Fair enough, but the one thing I will say is the line between nerf and kill is--to say the least--blurry.
In addition, BP Scolipede is in the same vein as BP Ninjask in that it has no use outside of BP teams (to an extent BP Espeon is in the same boat) and both take control of the game away from the opponent by, at the very least, dragging out the game for no reason. I will not deny that it can exist, but not in the way that any game vs. Baton Pass is basically a one player game (and removing Scoli and Espy and/or limiting it to one user keeps them from being that, IMO).
A nerf would make baton pass chains weaker, and more manageable. To kill would be to make any baton chains (I'd assume more than 2 passers to be considered a chain) unusable.
Scolipede can actually have an offensive presence with its not-too-shabby 100 base attack and access to swords dance. If walled, it can simply baton pass out the boosts to another sweeper. In this way, Scolipede can easily fit on teams that aren't baton pass chains (not to mention it also has support roles like setting up hazards). Espeon mainly uses baton pass as a way to escape from pursuit (although I don't know how common this strategy is now).
Someone please explain to me why we aren't trying to end it and are just nerfing it? I am legitimately confused about why a flat ban is not one of the options.
Also, collateral damage is a product of ALL bans, and we've never cared before. So why are we caring now about a playstyle that everyone hates anyway?
Seriously, I have no idea what's going on in people's minds right now.
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