What's wrong with today's pre-college education?

I think that the breaks in the United States are too long, but a longer school day by an hour or two might be a better solution for that, since people perceive losing a full day as more problematic than losing parts of days they are already losing by being in school.
I kinda agree. I like to have 2 months off, but longer school days wouldn't be such a bad idea.

When I first started High School, everyone's schedule was composed of 5 75min blocks per semester, and you'd have 4 courses per semester (1 spare to have lunch / whatever). People complained about being stuck with 1st or 2nd spare, so they'd go all day without eating. Now we have 4 60min classes, plus 1 mandatory class where we just do homework ('study hall' to you americanos) which is composed of the 15min stolen from each period plus the days were slightly shortened. I preferred 75min classes because we could cover so many more things in class.

It's kinda sad how far behind Canada is compared to Europe (and Asia too?). Concepts I'm learning as a senior were covered a lot earlier in European schools. (will finish this post later gotta run)
 

Tangerine

Where the Lights Are
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Doesn't have to do with the current discussion, but relevant - it is a paper on immigration but I want to highlight something.

http://www.hecer.fi/Seminars/Papers/card_paper.pdf

Both designs provide support for three key conclusions: (1) workers with below high school education are perfect substitutes for those with a high school education; (2)“high school equivalent” and “college equivalent” workers are imperfect substitutes; (3) within education groups, immigrants and natives are imperfect substitutes
Basically, it concludes that if you're not going to college, you shouldn't bother graduating highschool. Years in Education does not increase wage, unless the Education years are spent in College.

Yeah shows you how much Highschool prepares you for the real world, huh.
 
robalo:

#1) This is probably just personal experience, I suppose.

#2) Group work has the potential to be conducive towards learning and education. Regardless, the groupwork I often find myself forced into is with involuntarily chosen group members; surely, if I were to be in a group with those of a similar work ethic and desire to learn, I would be productive and infact benefit from said groupwork. However, this is often not the case in my school, though, again, this may simply boil down to personal experience.

#3) Agreed; note that I did not completely condemn socialization. I merely remarked that the emphasis on social activity by students - a large amount of parties, etc. - truly lessens the quality of school. I have a small group of friends which I keep close to me and we often discuss school and enjoy our time together. I speak of the students who attend school with their primary goal as socialization instead of education; these students are the ones who insist on sending text messages in class, leading to their own misunderstanding of the course material, and the ones who simply talk in class without regards to the wishes of the teacher. In essence, I believe that this leads to students believing that school is just an outlet for meeting with friends. It distracts them from the primary purpose of school and is a sign of disrespect towards teachers who truly strive for their students' success. Still! Socialization is an important part of school and depriving students of it entirely is unwise.
 
I suppose you are correct in your claims; I have experienced the kids who have grape wars in the middle of European History, who text during the Bio final, and who eat their test papers halfway through the exam (yes, this has happened in one of my Spanish classes). I was referring to my own circle of friends, which you have mentioned in your post, so I see your point now that t has been clarified.
 

Fabbles

LN_Slayer
is a Contributor Alumnus
I guess I have just been somewhat lucky from having parents who realize the importance of a good education. Although my middle school didn't help me learn much, it taught me how to think, which is crucial in gaining an education. Sure, you can memorize all you want. But how is that going to help in the long run? To me, these standardized tests that have been mentioned (I go to private school so I do not take them) just seem silly.

My high school, however, is quite amazing. We have one of the top programs if not the best program in Maryland in the Science and Math departments (95% of students in the last 10 years have gotten a 5 on the AP Bio, Chem, and Physics exam). By taking the AP classes, I can easily get away from the people who obviously don't want to be in high school, who so easily drag down the class learning to a point where you are not learning anything. Honestly, taking advanced classes is really good because all of the higher level teachers' basic mentality is "I'm here to teach, and you're here to learn. If you decide to fail, I don't care. I'm here to teach those who want to learn." At my school, you don't need to have a 130+ IQ to get a 5 on an AP test or get an A in the class. All you need is to be willing to learn and to do the work. (not to say a 130+ IQ wouldn't help!)

This is what I think is bad about most American schools: teachers trying to meet some arbitrary quota for passing rates or standardized tests or whatever. If the student doesn't care about school at all, just drop them. Some people can throw a baseball at 90 mph. Others have the mind for Integral Calculus. As long as someone at least as a drive for learning, experienced teachers can help immensely. They really help to avoid the problems that Doctor Heartbreak were describing about cutting class because you are actually not learning anything.

Stress learning, not memorizing.
 
I've always been in some kind of enhanced program, be it gifted or IB during high school, yet I still felt it was far too easy. Unlike the rest of you, I didn't mind the ease; I liked dicking around and still excelling (I was probably overcompensating for having no friends until I was about 12, so I went all-out in high school). I haven't had any troubles with university either; I've probably been so well-versed in higher than usual academic standards that the transition to university went without a hitch. I have seen the work that academic students (non enhanced program students) do and it was, quite frankly, absolutely pathetic. The transition to university would have definitely been more difficult, so I am in general agreement of these critiques of secondary education.
 
A certain Slashdot comment did come to mind when I saw this thread.
Congrats in being in the top 1% of all humans, but not everyone is up to that challenge or is that smart. Most kids are just average, so the school system must best prepare those average students for college. Of course, a system must also have ways at appealing the "elite" of society and offer them such things as AP classes.
The problem is that the "elite" courses like AP have really become watered down. I've been in AP classes where people have zero work ethic and lack the talent to pull off a grade without investing that effort, then complain about how tough the class in when they've invested nothing and chose to take an AP class. The teacher can either continue teaching the class at the same rate, leaving the slackers behind, or slow things down and not finish all of the course material in time for the AP test. And when the teacher is getting phone calls from ten parents complaining about how their kid isn't passing the class, which do you think the teacher is going to choose?

Fortunately, AP Calculus did not suffer from this problem, and neither did AP Physics and Chem, for the most part. But Biology and Statistics were absolutely rife with students who were both unmotivated and unprepared for the subject material. (It should go without saying that any liberal arts classes were majorly comprised of such individuals.)

There used to be a time when CP classes really were considered "college-prep." The top 10% of the class would take AP, and those in the 60th percentile or above would take CP classes. However, CP classes have become seriously watered down, evidenced by the fact that our district wants to make "CP English" the baseline for freshmen next year, completely eliminating "General English."
I don't wish to appear antisocial here (even though I'm less sociable than most, admittedly), but there is a growing view of school as a place to socialize. This view is a plague; it distracts students from their goal of learning and is an affront to the very ideals of education.
If it weren't for socialization, most of the extra-ciricular activities that I took part in during high school would be dead. At least half of the people who ended up staying around for the entire year joined because of a friend (and ended up staying because they genuinely enjoyed the activity). The entire speech and debate team is a very cohesive social group and it's a place where you stand to benefit a lot from your peers. Larger speech and debate teams in our league tend to do best not necessarily because there's an increased probability that they contain more talented individuals, but because of how a strong speechie-culture can motivate students within the program to excel.


Anyway, the problems that I've observed with K-12 education are mainly the result of where I grew up during my school years. It's an area mostly based on agriculture. When I say that it's agrarian, I don't mean that everyone there is a farmer, but a vast, vast majority of the area's workforce is employed by food-producers. There are a lot of people who are engineers, mechanics, microbiologists, and the like, but they're mostly employed by the local winery (the biggest local employer) or Frito-Lay. It seems that young folks in this are have zero ambition. A tiny, infinitesimally small fraction of my graduating class even applied to out of state schools, and a startlingly high number of really bright kids are attending the community college this fall. I'm talking about kids who are doing the AP route, have a 4.0+ GPA, and participated in all kinds of school activities. The class valedictorian from one of our city's better schools is attending community college this fall.

The consensus among my peers seems to be that they want to stay within driving distance of home, which is pretty silly inasmuch as we live on the west coast.
 
A tiny, infinitesimally small fraction of my graduating class even applied to out of state schools, and a startlingly high number of really bright kids are attending the community college this fall. I'm talking about kids who are doing the AP route, have a 4.0+ GPA, and participated in all kinds of school activities. The class valedictorian from one of our city's better schools is attending community college this fall.

The consensus among my peers seems to be that they want to stay within driving distance of home, which is pretty silly inasmuch as we live on the west coast.
You do realize that with the current recession, there is a growing number of people attending community college just for the fact that it is cheaper and will still allow you to attend a regular college in two years, right?
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
You do realize that with the current recession, there is a growing number of people attending community college just for the fact that it is cheaper and will still allow you to attend a regular college in two years, right?
I think that's for a topic titled "Why does the American college financial system make absolutely no sense whatsoever". It blows my mind that I pay $20,000 for a bachelor's degree and you guys pay $20,000 for a year in an undergraduate program.

If nobody can afford it without going into crippling debt, I'd think that's a sign it's overpriced as hell.
 
One of the largest problems is that high school kids (and I suppose I include myself in this statement) think that they can just study and cram the night before for a test. The problem is they seem to forget the stuff (or at least half) they crammed for about a week later. In the end, their laziness will force them to work harder than they could have worked with just a little more effort put into ACTUALLY LEARNING the material.
 
One of the largest problems is that high school kids (and I suppose I include myself in this statement) think that they can just study and cram the night before for a test. The problem is they seem to forget the stuff (or at least half) they crammed for about a week later. In the end, their laziness will force them to work harder than they could have worked with just a little more effort put into ACTUALLY LEARNING the material.
Maybe people would not get into that mode of studying if the tests were not so damn easy.
 
Any decent education these days costs a fortune. I could be in college by now, if I went to a private school, but instead I'm halfway through highschool. Apparently only rich kids can realize their full potential
 
I go to a college prepratory catholic high school, so I don't really feel that i'm not getting a good education. The public schools, those have some issues (I know this from my friends who go to public schools in my area). Alot of schools around where I live barely have any discipline and students are really pushed to their full potential. Instead alot of the kids just rely on drugs and sports to "survive" highschool and then hope that their parents can get a loan that will get em into college. Its pretty ridiculous. I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy your high school experience, but seriously, it really seems like alot of people don't care about learning anymore. Do people not get that we wouldn't have ANYTHING in our current society without people who have an education? I mean really, your cell phone was created by those so called "nerds" who actually tried in school, you sure you already know enough to get by in life? GAH! lol
Ok, I'm done. :P
 
I'm one of the nerds I can tell you that I don't even try. Even AP courses are simple, as many slackers apply and then bring down the level of a class. My school supposedly has all pre-ap courses, but instead of making kids smarter, it made the classes dumber
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
One of the largest problems is that high school kids (and I suppose I include myself in this statement) think that they can just study and cram the night before for a test. The problem is they seem to forget the stuff (or at least half) they crammed for about a week later. In the end, their laziness will force them to work harder than they could have worked with just a little more effort put into ACTUALLY LEARNING the material.
Maybe schools should stop making education revolve around tests and make tests that test education. Tests and exams are so damn old fashioned. I'm so happy I'm in a program where most of my classes use projects to grade me.
 
F indicates a failure, and everything above is a pass? Oh, how interesting...This just shows how schools in America have poor educational standards.

Here, under a B- is an auto fail. In addition, we have teachers coming to our classes; instead of the students chosing which classes they go to--and I see that as a problem, since immature children picking classes is just...wrong.

I can't further stress the point of the unnecessary homework schools include. Schools, and even colleges nowadays, are simply lowering their standards to accept any hooligan in--just for the sake of money.

Conversely, you cannot deem a student idiotic; this is why I think preschool is the base of a child's educational growth (I'm serious <_<). Or even elementary school / middle school for that matter. Students should learn how to interact with others in a young age; learning such things in High school is just too late. And if a teacher finds someone uninterested; then they can try their effort to question them, adjust their grades if suitable (because they're showing effort in the class, special classes after school is a great aid to that); and even talk to their parents.
 
My father made a rule himself for me that a B is a fail. He pretty much told I needed a full ride or else I cant go to college. He certainly can't afford it. And there's another thing. Kids have no responsibility anymore. My community has offered scholarships for college and no one has even applied for about three years. They let their parents pay for it all I suppose.
 
My opinion on education is that your first job teaches you more about the real world than any amount of school does.

Either way, college is very expensive. I went to community college last year and my state university is like 3 grand a year which I'll be paying for 2-3 more years. It's pretty cheap compared to others, but the programs are still good. It'll get more expensive where I live, though.
 
I would have to say the main problem (at least at our school) is that the only thing we do is prepare for state and AP test. I don't joke when I say that the only purpose of an AP class is to pass an AP test. Once the students take the test everyone just slacks off. I do not exaggerate when I say that people play cards/games once the AP test is over. The college prep classes are even worse. There is a long ass list of standards imposed by the state and national government which students must learn. You would think this would encourage learning, but it is really counter productive. Instead you have panicking teachers who force students to memorize facts for the big test at the end of the year. Before the state tests are issued our principle goes strutting around the school lecturing to each class how important the state testing is. Do you want to know why our school officials care so much about testing? Schools with higher API scores (basically the average score of each test) get more funding. In the end it all winds down to money...teachers are pushed to pass as many students as possible in order to look better for the state, who in turn brags to our national governent.

Sorry if there are any errors I wrote this kind of late.
 
The principle issue is simple - passing school has effectively become a necessity rather than a privilege (that's not a bad thing), which means that the curriculum does need to handle people that aren't really terribly suited to schools. It also means that if the government (in a state-run system) tweaks the system in a way that appeals to the somewhat below-average students, they can make more political hay out of it than if they tweak the system in a way that appeals to above-average students - there's more of the former. If it's a private school, they'll make more money if they focus on the larger group of less-than-competent to barely competent rather than the exceptional. It's a pattern that's repeated in a number of places - the Australian education system is falling into a similar trap. The public curriculum in my state, South Australia, was somewhat recently revised - and local universities didn't want to enrol people graduating from that curriculum (Specifically, they didn't want to give SACE students a Tertiary Entrance Rank, or TER, a score used by universities and the government to assign government-supported places to the best students. Not getting a TER means you can't get into uni). They were eventually talked into accepting some of the courses, but if you take the wrong course, you're still stuffed (Although, to be fair, the right courses are things like 'Mathematics' and 'Physics' and the like, and the wrong courses are things like 'Home economics' and 'hospitality' and the like.).

Universities are suffering from a similar effect (driven more by a lack of public funding than a windfall, unfortunately, Deck). Specifically, the last government seriously neglected funding for education, tertiary education specifically, and so universities have had to rely on more and more full-fee paying students. That means more and more people that wouldn't have got in on the basis of high-school marks alone. And because they're paying n-thousand a year for the privilege, they're somewhat unhappy if they don't get a degree at the end of it, so standards end up being dumbed down.
 
Our education in the states K-5 is pretty good last I checked. It really falls off at the start of middle school/junior high school.

The problem is, like someone mentioned earlier, that too much of our education is based on passing a handful of tests or doing busy work. The easiest way for most students to pass a test is to cram everything into their short term memory right before the test and then forget it all immediately afterward. 2/3 of students I know or more use this method, even in college. We need an education system that's more conducive to actually LEARNING then it is to passing tests and memorizing pointless facts/using short-cuts. Ultimately our classes right now are games and students are just finding every loophole possible (and are often encouraged to do so).

Our entire system of teaching needs to be restructured. Funding should not be done based on standardized testing, and standardized tests should occur less frequently. Students require a more interactive method of learning to actually grasp the material in such a way that it won't just be forgotten a week later.

I'm going to be a high school English teacher in a couple of years btw, hopefully I'll have a chance to make some sort of difference.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top