What's wrong with today's pre-college education?

[Deck Knight]

The primary problem in American education is curriculum, not funding.

Stupidity has worked its way into America's classroom, a classic example of which being Everyday Math. (This being an illustration of it).

Money clearly isn't the problem. The United States is about 7th in spending on education as a percentage of GDP (this is astounding given the immense scale of our GDP to begin with) of the industrialized nations and has the highest number of years per pupil. (The Baltic States, Switzerland, and New Zealand spend more as percentage of GDP among industrialized nations)

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/edu-education

We need to change our entire attitude about education in America. Public Education has clearly failed and is a waste of money. It is nothing more than the playground of social engineers who want the government to favor their new insane and untested curriculum in favor of tried and true methods of instruction. It is so bad in some places that you can chart a decrease in average GPA for each increase in funding. The problem isn't the money, it's the suck curriculum.

 

[Metallic]

My high school is one of the best public high schools in the US (It has a pretty tough entrance exam and is difficult to get into), and I don't think anyone here had to even think to pass (and get straight A's in) middle school. Schools should definitely cater more to the best students, because all they are doing now is learning bad study habits that will hurt them later in life.

 

[SMZ]

Are students too dependent on worksheets? Are lectures too long? Maybe it'd be better if students stay in one class and teachers be the ones who switch classes or something.

We actually have that here in our country (and most Arabic countries for that matter). Gotta say, it's rather boring staying in one class for 7 hours, not sure if it'd better if we had it the other way around though.

The problems I think we have in high schools here is the 'environment'; if you have mostly lazy/annoying/loud students and teachers who's teaching style is very boring, and some don't even feel like teaching, so they 'rush things up'

Of course, there's the odd exceptions of good teachers, who teach well and shows you that he actually knows what he's doing and can add to it(outside of the learning material).

Also, on some occasions, I tend to study the subject 'mostly' by myself near the finals/in the finals to understand it, as a handful of teachers simply can't 'deliver' the information to you.

 

[foibles]

It seems to me that the fact that the teachers union is so willing to protect poor workers is one of the major problems in the US. the fact is that better teachers = better students = smarter people, and there is really no way to circumvent this. Let alone the fact that many other things are wrong with our schools. I go to one of the few good public schools in portland, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a completely dated building. In the summer it is usually literally too hot to think effectively in the afternoon.

 

[Firestorm]

Staying in one class doesn't make sense. Every student has a different schedule of different classes and that's how it should be. Mixing up students so they have to meet and interact with more people is also a good idea. The worst thing about being in honours in high school was that about half my classes were with the same people every year. I liked how close we were, but I regretted that I never got to know roughly half my grade.

 

[SMZ]

Staying in one class doesn't make sense. Every student has a different schedule of different classes and that's how it should be. Mixing up students so they have to meet and interact with more people is also a good idea. The worst thing about being in honours in high school was that about half my classes were with the same people every year. I liked how close we were, but I regretted that I never got to know roughly half my grade.

In our country, we pretty much have the same subjects. Even students who have other subjects (like for enhancement or repeating purposes) don't even go to a class for that subject (study it at home).

Also, not sure if USA/other countries has this, but here we have 'majors' in high school; Science[mine], Literature, Business, Mechanics and Religion (each stay in separate classes/schools of course). So, that pretty much 'cancels' each student has 'separate' classes(except for rare cases).

I'm not saying it's the best way, just saying it doesn't go against students having different subjects.

 

[Doctor Heartbreak]

okay so i hated high school a lot, but did pretty well. here's how i got through it if anybody needs ideas:

school is really useful as a place to learn. it puts you in a mostly quiet, distraction-free environment for six hours a day, five days a week. however, it also tries to trick you into giving up this incredible opportunity by making you go to class and do set exercises

i started skipping class in my senior year. i missed maybe 2/5 to 1/2 of my lessons, and in most of the ones i attended, i didn't really do the set work. i didn't take a single note the whole year. i stopped going to japanese and drama entirely, choosing to focus on the three subjects i was sitting scholarship exams for: english, media studies and art history.

however, all this skipping didn't mean i wasn't studying. skipping a class didn't mean heading to burger king or getting high behind the bike sheds or whatever my friends were doing. i would find somewhere quiet and isolated, where i wouldn't be bothered by friends or the administration, and read. instead of wasting time goofing around in a class of thirty kids, with moronic teachers struggling to keep everyone focused on simple and unnecessary exercises, i was able to get in an hour of intensive, involved study for every lesson i missed. time in class is so often time spent distracted, chatting, doing pointless shit - you almost owe yourself truancy

the main benefit was that i was able to design my own curriculum, which meant i could put a heavy focus on literature, the visual arts, film, greek and roman myth/society, history, as well as gain a rudimentary knowledge of things that my high school didn't offer, like theology and philosophy. and i could study all of these in far more depth than the curriculum covered - i know americans have a better system in terms of english, but in new zealand, at the high school i went to, we covered one book in class per year. that's about 200 hours spent studying, in my case, 1984, a novel that can be read and understood in a couple of days. i was able to read and study about forty classic novels in my final year, mostly through not paying attention in class and just doing my own thing in the back. don't be fooled into thinking that school can teach you better than you can teach yourself - you don't have to be a genius to improve on the curriculum, you just have to be dedicated to actually learning.

as far as in-class learning goes, lessons that are mostly raw knowledge are well worth paying attention to. information is information, no matter where it's coming from. it's when they bust out the worksheets that you step quietly aside to continue doing something useful, i.e. absorbing further information by reading. personally i never found revision helpful at all - breadth of knowledge was more important than details, so i covered new material instead of going over what i had already learnt. but that's not necessarily for everyone.

your teachers aren't going to appreciate your behaviour, and they will become frustrated. remember that this would usually be justified, and they are right to do somehting about it. but do stand your ground. for the first few months, expect a battle. eventually they will grow to respect you and leave you alone once your grades start showing that your approach is working. by halfway through my senior year, my teachers had pretty much given me a free pass in terms of work - as long as i kept getting perfect marks they didn't care how i spent my time.

that said, don't dismiss your teachers. most of them will be stunning mediocrities but there are always a few golden exceptions somewhere in the school - the people that are in teaching for the love of their subject and the love of education. this kind of teacher is extremely helpful both in extending your understanding (no matter how smart you are, you aren't going to have the same breadth of knowledge as an intelligent, university-educated adult. they will see things you don't) and in lifting your morale.

the second point is important, because this kind of lifestyle isn't fun. you will find yourself becoming lonely and depressed, and this will worsen the further away from your peers you get in terms of knowledge and thinking. you won't have anyone with which you can discuss what you're learning about. the happiness you get from knowledge and learning is valid, but it isn't the same as the happiness you get out of a close friendship, and by extending yourself intellectually you will, sadly, distance a part of yourself from the rest of the student body. even if somebody is taking the same approach as you, it's unlikely they'll be studying in the same direction.

my solution to this was, kind of embarrassingly, alcohol. social drinking temporarily eliminates the higher concerns that otherwise won't leave you alone, and it allows you to interact on an even footing with your peers. going out and making a fool of yourself with your mates is a great antidote to the pretension that you risk by immersing yourself in academia - and it helps to remind you that even if people aren't doing the same thing as you intellectually, they can still be lots of fun and very much worth getting to know. go to parties, hang out with people, have a social life. otherwise you will go completely insane

anyway, i know this advice certainly isn't conventional, and some of the stuff sounds like a bad idea. if it's going to get you into trouble, don't follow it - the stress will just distract you from learning, and learning is your main objective. also important: remember that this lifestyle isn't about being superior to other people, however tempting that view seems at times. it's about being proactive about changing a system that wants you to waste half your life. there are other ways to live life, and they are just as valid. so don't dismiss people on the grounds that they aren't on your level academically.

ANYWAY JUST TO PROVE THIS ISN'T THE WORST POSSIBLE APPROACH TO SCHOOL, WHICH ADMITTEDLY IS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE:

i was valedictorian at my graduation, i graduated top of my school's year for english and media studies, top ten in the country for art history, passed the two subjects i had skipped with decidedly average marks, and ended up with more scholarship money than i can actually spend on university tuition. this kind of learning can work, and when it does, it pays off. but you have to work damn hard at it.

 

[Objection]

Reading about what some people are saying, I'd say some of you are the lucky ones. At my school, you're not allowed to miss a class to do work in another subject that you're doing badly in, with the exception of PE. You're also not allowed to miss the class to do some private studying in that particular subject. The only consolation is that we do get timetabled free periods in which we have no classes to go to.

 

[Ikariam]

I think they don't motivate the student enough. Here, as long as you can get a D- in the class, you can pass, and it's extremely easy to get that D-. Perhaps if they made it where you had to have a B- to pass, or made the assignments count more, I'd be more motivated.

I also don't feel that schools focus enough on college. Here we take all kinds of surveys, but none of the results ever show. One that we recently took was asking sort of stuff we wanted to do in school to make it more fun. We will never get to do any of those, so we all feel like we're wasting our time doing the stupid survey.

Schools take advantage of it, and just expect us to be there and set whatever rules they want, we have to follow them or we wind up working at McDonald's the rest of our lives. Students, all students, need a voice. We need to be able to say how we feel, and people listen to us and take what we say and do something with it.

Wow, this is a hell of a second post.

 

[General Tso]

I think they don't motivate the student enough. Here, as long as you can get a D- in the class, you can pass, and it's extremely easy to get that D-. Perhaps if they made it where you had to have a B- to pass, or made the assignments count more, I'd be more motivated.

First off I'd just like to say that citing a manga maybe wasn't the best idea, but it was the only thing I had, I'll go read up on the system and its flaws later.

Anyways, my school does that too where F is the only "failing" grade. Until I found out, I thought you needed a C- at least. So now I know the problem has to be administration at least for my school. They try to put on this charade that they care but they ignore underlying variables like motivation. The way I see it, if a kid doesn't want to be there, and it'll be apparent the first week of school, drop them. They're only negatively affecting the teachers and the students who genuinely want to learn.

There could be the problem that these high school dropouts turn into criminals, but would you just keep those bad students in a place they don't want to be?

As for students staying put in one class, I only suggested that because that's what I'm in. I go to a magnet school for half the day and our grade only consists of 72 students there. We're divided in 3 groups of 24 and the groups have the same classes for 10 weeks. Then we mix up the classes for another 10 weeks. I don't know if this really helps me to learn, but I do know that every student there wants to learn and they are self-motivated which is why I've been able to survive through school.

Wow, there really is something wrong with education.

 

[akuchi]

General Tso: Yes. Because kids aren't always disruptive just because they're thick troublemaking kids - I acted out really fucking badly at two of the schools I went to and was still a pretty smartmouthed heckler with the potential to disrupt a lesson at the third. But for the first two (that I did eventually get thrown out of) I was having real problems at home, and if one of the schools in particular hadn't bothered to look after me through the three years of my life that I was an absolute shit I probably wouldn't be here now - I certainly wouldnt be preparing to go to university this september and carve out a life in academia.

 

[Eternal]

I think they don't motivate the student enough. Here, as long as you can get a D- in the class, you can pass, and it's extremely easy to get that D-. Perhaps if they made it where you had to have a B- to pass, or made the assignments count more, I'd be more motivated.

I also don't feel that schools focus enough on college. Here we take all kinds of surveys, but none of the results ever show. One that we recently took was asking sort of stuff we wanted to do in school to make it more fun. We will never get to do any of those, so we all feel like we're wasting our time doing the stupid survey.

Schools take advantage of it, and just expect us to be there and set whatever rules they want, we have to follow them or we wind up working at McDonald's the rest of our lives. Students, all students, need a voice. We need to be able to say how we feel, and people listen to us and take what we say and do something with it.

Wow, this is a hell of a second post.

You can't say that all schools are like this. It depends on what school you attend and what kind of teachers you have. There are teachers that actually care about your education of life and there are teachers that don't care about you at all, but their life (and you can't disagree on that).

Schools teach you what you need to learn in order to exceed on upcoming tests or any way it improves the quality and reputation of the school. If you have a thirst for knowledge and want to learn more than what your school offers, then there's self education. You should have no problem getting a book from the library or checking the internet for resources of what you're interested in. And you can't expect your school to teach you any kind of subject that had no significance towards upcoming state tests (depends on the country/state you're attending school).

And what you've stated Akariam, all students do have a voice. If they are willing to work together to solve whatever school issue that is, then the government will listen. But, that is only if all the students are willing to do so.

 

[Virtuoso]

1) Parents (in general) are not emphasizing education and learning. They hand their kids tons of video games and leave them in their room for hours rather than be involved in their lives.

2) Teachers (in general) are becoming more disinterested in the kids they teach because there is no longer a relationship between teacher and parent. Education, rather than a team effort, has become a struggle against the kid AND the parents.

3) Schools don't have the balls to fail kids anymore because they're afraid of getting sued/yelled at/whatever by angry parents who think their kids are God's gift to the world, or losing their Government tax money. Kids who shouldn't pass are getting passed through grade after grade without achieving the proper levels of intelligence, and so the problem just compounds itself.

4) Colleges are more interested in money now than integrity. As a result, they've lowered their acceptance standards and are now letting in anyone with a pulse. I think this is partly based on this new-age mentality that "everyone should go to college", when really college isn't for everyone. As a further result, more degrees are being handed out and the degrees themselves become more meaningless (because they are less rare and so easy to achieve).

5) In other countries, teachers and schools are viewed in a much higher regard as a profession and an institution, and subsequently are paid more/receive more government funding. In America, teachers are almost seen as a low-end job, and schools are seen as expendable luxuries.

That about sums it up.

In Florida almost the entire education system is built around kids passing the state standardized test, FCAT, and everything outside of that is basically horseshit.
Its like once you are done with the Standardized tests they literally don't even know what to do with you, they just move past your and focus on the retards that are tanking on basic knowledge tests.

Like my school is considered one of the "top" schools in the area and this year our graduating class had the highest amount of 4.0 or higher GPAs of any other year. We had 30. Out of a class of almost 600....

 

[WaterBomb]

I would like to raise an objection to this talk about how poor teachers are the cause of kids being dumb. While I will consent to the fact that there are teachers out there that probably aren't the best, there are many good teachers out there that are still having to deal with a continuously deteriorating group of children. I said this in my first post, and I will repeat it here for emphasis:

I am a teacher, and the problem I run into most often is lack of support from the homes of my students. It is extremely difficult to educate a child when the parents don't care and refuse to communicate with you.

I can't stress this enough. You wouldn't believe how frustrating it is to call meetings with parents because their child is not performing, only to have the parent tell you to fuck off because their kid would neeeeeeeeeeeever misbehave or perform badly. The parents would rather just blame the problem on the school than entertain the possibility that their child isn't a prodigy.

Sorry, I get a little carried away when I talk about this, but you people seriously need to stop blaming teachers for the kids being dumb. I don't believe I am arrogant when I say I am a damn good teacher, and if my kids are dumb it is not because of me.

 

[Mountain Dewgong]

I would like to raise an objection to this talk about how poor teachers are the cause of kids being dumb. While I will consent to the fact that there are teachers out there that probably aren't the best, there are many good teachers out there that are still having to deal with a continuously deteriorating group of children. I said this in my first post, and I will repeat it here for emphasis:

I am a teacher, and the problem I run into most often is lack of support from the homes of my students. It is extremely difficult to educate a child when the parents don't care and refuse to communicate with you.

I can't stress this enough. You wouldn't believe how frustrating it is to call meetings with parents because their child is not performing, only to have the parent tell you to fuck off because their kid would neeeeeeeeeeeever misbehave or perform badly. The parents would rather just blame the problem on the school than entertain the possibility that their child isn't a prodigy.

Sorry, I get a little carried away when I talk about this, but you people seriously need to stop blaming teachers for the kids being dumb. I don't believe I am arrogant when I say I am a damn good teacher, and if my kids are dumb it is not because of me.

Ah god, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a student, and almost ALL of the teachers at my school (student and reliever teachers excluded) are competent.
I can see what you mean about parents blind arrogance at the self assertion of their own genes, as they can't possibly be anything but 'my little angel'.

I firmly believe the problem lies in the student, not the teacher, for a large majority of cases.

 

[Doctor Heartbreak]

the problem is on both ends, at least in this country. students are dumb, of course, that's obvious to anyone. but secondary school teachers (here in new zealand) are increasingly people in their very early twenties who go to teacher's college because they like kids, or because the government is offering subsidies for science and mathematics teachers. meaning they don't have a background in their subject beyond the teaching of that subject.

teachers should be motivated by passion for education, but also passion for their subject material. if the passion doesn't exist in them, they aren't going to pass it on to their kids. not to deny that excellent teachers exist (i'm sure waterbomb is an example) - and when they do they can be a massive change in the lives of their class - but they are at least as scarce as motivated students.

in an ideal world, teachers would hold the same kind of social status and draw the same salary as lawyers and doctors - and require the same lengthy, rigorous training and specialization

 

[Mountain Dewgong]

Hmmm yeah, that's a good idea.
You're the only person I can truly relate too in this thread. :O

 

[y2zipper]

I agree that the #1 problem is that parents don't get involved with the education of their children. Sometimes they see it as more of a day care center rather than a school. The previous poster is absolutely right.

I think incompetent teachers is another problem, and I've gone through more than my fair share of those. It's no disrespect to anyone that's a teacher, because I've had good teachers as well.

A third problem which hasn't been addressed is that schools are only suited to one or two particular learning styles.

 

[VaderPhish]

I see several problems with the educational system in America. The first problem is that parents don't get involved with the education of their children.
I go to a college preparatory private school, so I don't really have any problems with our educational system. For the 7 years before I went to this school however, I saw some serious problems.

Schools act like its their duty to ensure that every student learns stuff. There are several problems with this. First of all, many students don't want to go to school and just go because they have to. I think that education should not be mandatory. They will have lowered opportunities in life, perhaps, but at least that way, school will be seen as a place to learn. With all the reluctant people out, and with adequate funding schools would be better able to focus on students who want to learn some shit.

Even in my school, about the half the people don't give a damn about education. With less people, there would be less teachers, meaning that people can actually select the best teachers of the selection pool, who are suited for teaching several different learning styles.

Another problem with school that I see besides lack of interest is learning itself. Most students are force fed rote learned materials. We should be teaching skills that can help kids actually learn stuff, and once the reluctant kids leave, this will be easier.

Once again, I have to go back to parents. If parents were not educated well in the first place, they can't be adequate support in the education of their children. If we revamped the educational system, it may take a generation, but parents would be better able to contribute to the success of their child.

I may only have a 3.8 G.P.A (AP classes haven't started yet), but I still consider myself a success. You don't have to be a genius to know that there is somethings seriously wrong with the American educational system and then take action against it.

 

[Trax]

Just a short list of problems I can see..

1. Kids love to learn as a rule, for some reason almost no kid loves school.

2. School Curriculum's are created by academics, some are good most aren't, most academics don't actually achieve shit in the real world or they wouldn't be writing the fucking Curriculum for money!

3. Social situation at schools is as much a problem as the curriculum.

 

[WaterBomb]

in an ideal world, teachers would hold the same kind of social status and draw the same salary as lawyers and doctors - and require the same lengthy, rigorous training and specialization

We're already required to go through a 5-year undergraduate program and then get a Master's degree just to get hired as a normal K-12 public school teacher. We go through a -minimum- of 6 years of school, and yet our starting salary (in a well-paying district) is 45,000. Most districts only start their teachers at 30-35K per year, and some even less than that. Please tell me how someone with a Master's degree can only start at that salary?

Anyway I'm a little off topic, just wanted to respond to that one statement.

 

[Robo-Ky]

I think one of the main problems facing education (in the US) is the lack of incentive. So many people don't really care about their education, they just know that if they suck, the system will bail them out. Also, I know far too many people who don't do shit in class, fail everything, and then blame the curriculum for making them fail. There are some true geniuses who are being held back by these students and their endless procrastination and bitching. To begin fixing things, we should stop holding students' hands all the way through school - we should push them in the right direction, but let them gain the experience for themselves. Reward them if they perform well enough. If they fail - sucks for them.

 

[patera_silk]

This thread seems to have received a level of activity which I am unaccustomed to. I'll try to respond to the general points which have been brought up.

One problem which I've noticed in all of my classes is the blend of students (as mentioned by AuraStUrm); the students who are in school merely to socialize hold down the students who truly have potential. The classes are tailored to cater precisely to these underachieving and lazy students, and those with much more potential are completely ignored. The students who display no motivation or desire to learn whatsoever still manage to pass the class; in doing so, they continue to believe that they can merely scrape by in life. While they do so, the students who truly desire to learn are held back unfairly.

Another prevalent problem is the emphasis on groupwork. Of course, it may help; however, it becomes obvious in some situations that the capable students are grouped with those requiring extra help. The goal is for the more intelligent student to teach the less capable, but in fact the end result is that the student ends up doing all the work. Certainly, all here have experienced this to some extent. Moreover, I find that the groupwork emphasized in mathematics is ofttimes overblown and useless; math should be an independent activity for the most part, and the same problems mentioned earlier about groupwork are still applicable.

I don't wish to appear antisocial here (even though I'm less sociable than most, admittedly), but there is a growing view of school as a place to socialize. This view is a plague; it distracts students from their goal of learning and is an affront to the very ideals of education.

More later, I'm rather ill.

 

[Trax]

We're already required to go through a 5-year undergraduate program and then get a Master's degree just to get hired as a normal K-12 public school teacher. We go through a -minimum- of 6 years of school, and yet our starting salary (in a well-paying district) is 45,000. Most districts only start their teachers at 30-35K per year, and some even less than that. Please tell me how someone with a Master's degree can only start at that salary?

Anyway I'm a little off topic, just wanted to respond to that one statement.

I believe he said teachers should be paid the same as lawyers and doctors as well as have the same rigorous training.

 

[robalo]

This thread seems to have received a level of activity which I am unaccustomed to. I'll try to respond to the general points which have been brought up.

One problem which I've noticed in all of my classes is the blend of students (as mentioned by AuraStUrm); the students who are in school merely to socialize hold down the students who truly have potential. The classes are tailored to cater precisely to these underachieving and lazy students, and those with much more potential are completely ignored. The students who display no motivation or desire to learn whatsoever still manage to pass the class; in doing so, they continue to believe that they can merely scrape by in life. While they do so, the students who truly desire to learn are held back unfairly.

Another prevalent problem is the emphasis on groupwork. Of course, it may help; however, it becomes obvious in some situations that the capable students are grouped with those requiring extra help. The goal is for the more intelligent student to teach the less capable, but in fact the end result is that the student ends up doing all the work. Certainly, all here have experienced this to some extent. Moreover, I find that the groupwork emphasized in mathematics is ofttimes overblown and useless; math should be an independent activity for the most part, and the same problems mentioned earlier about groupwork are still applicable.

I don't wish to appear antisocial here (even though I'm less sociable than most, admittedly), but there is a growing view of school as a place to socialize. This view is a plague; it distracts students from their goal of learning and is an affront to the very ideals of education.

More later, I'm rather ill.

#1) I would have to disagree slightly with the first bolded part of this statement. While it is true that in the general education classes, such as P.E. and Health, there is a mix of students, there are mostly high-achieving and drven students in most of my other classes.

#2) Again, through personal experience (and perhaps a slightly different policy), I view group wok as a positive experience: it encourages students to work together to accomplish a task that would be very tedious and dfficult if they were working alone. Usually, the teacher lets students form their own groups, so students with similar work ethics usually end up together, which evens the load somewhat(although I have been in those groups where I do the work, they get the credit).

#3) I believe that socialization is a healthy, even neccessary part of school. It provides a short break for students to clear their heads of work, alowing for clearer focus in the next class. It also creates an outlet for students to discuss problems they may have witha class, sek advice from friends and lessen the sense that going to school is the antithesis of a positive life experience.