What's wrong with the metagame?

[Tassa]

Removing rain/sun won't help with Ttar/Keldeo/Lando, but it will help against rain hydro pump spam, or things like Venusaur, and above all, the match-up problem. It is pointless to say that solving problem A will not solve problem B and so we shouldn't solve A, because the point of solving A, is to solve A, not A and B.
If you mean that solving a part of the problem is far from solving all, you're right, and the fear from not reaching a stable metagame is justified, but shouldn't stop us wondering what to do. ^^

I feel that we are out of the original topic in that we name things (weathers, mon or others) which are controversial but not the way they break (or not) competitiveness.
As a side not, I'm a little hopeless in that, well we try to be close to the original games, and for BW, BW2 and probably the future games, it means bye competitiveness. If banning mons after mons seems to not be very effective, it is because moves, abilities, game mechanics (that counter reset for sleep, for example...), all participate. Mons participate but roots of the problems are deeper than mons alone.

 

[Curtains]

How is sand causing any problems? Sand really only features 2 easy to wall abusers and some special defense boost. I think a sand only metagame is better than one with rain and sun. Tyranitar certainly isn't broken (and it would be dumb to call it broken because it helps beat the counters of other pokemon) and sand only helps in winning the weather war. Drizzle boosted scalds and hydro pumps are the real culprit. They take teambuilding to genesect levels with the amount of work you have to put in just to contain these threats. Drizzle limits creative teambuilding and centralizes the metagame around water pokemon and water defense.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

/\ Sun also does that, albeit with Fire-type attacks, although those are easier to wall because of the higher number of Fire resistances (when compared with Water resistances)

Sand does not cause problems. Please do not confuse sandstorm with Tyranitar. It's Tyranitar which, with its Pursuit support, takes care of Latias and other counters to Keldeo and special variants of Landorus. The fact that it summons sandstorm is a coincidence; in fact, there are very few abusers of sandstorm. Tyranitar is only chosen because it happens to be the best Pursuit user there, thanks to its incredible special bulk and power. Sandstorm does not give a boost to any type, and with the above characteristics, means that sandstorm is not broken at all. In fact, I would want a metagame free from sun and rain because this would give some Pokémon a chance, such as physical variants of Landorus.

 

[phantom]

The only reason Tyranitar is able to be such a good Pursuit user is because of sandstorm, otherwise it's 2HKOed by a lot of the things it's supposed to trap. Also, if you want a good look at how sand effects a tier on its own, see BW UU.

See this: 0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 164-194 (42.48 - 50.25%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

VS This:

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 110-132 (28.49 - 34.19%) -- 99.17% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Pocket]

I really enjoy / like BW(2) OU. So yeah.

That said, I can appreciate the complaints about Specs Hydro Pump spammage coming from Keldeo - I have faced the brunt force of this beast. I have been on the fence about this mon since the inception of BW2, but I didn't want to bandwagon "Keldeo is broke" sentiments until I have made up my mind. I personally thought Keldeo was worse than Tornadus-T, because of the combination of SR and priority resistances (as opposed to weakness) with super-strong Rain-boosted Hydro Pump. Add a Scarf and Keldeo turns into a more untouchable and devastating force than Specs Tornadus-T in my eyes. Not to mention that Keldeo is a force to be reckoned outside of Rain, unlike Tornadus-T.

I can emphasize with the people here who wants Rain banned because of Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump spammage, but I believe that Keldeo is simply just too good on its own. Keldeo is by no means a Rain-specific Pokemon. Even if we ban Rain, there's still that Keldeo + Tyranitar core that people can abuse to mindlessly spam Specs-boosted Hydro Pump with identical efficiency, if not better, since Tyranitar actively eliminates Keldeo's counters. Basically, Keldeo is not only a problem in Rain, but also outside of Rain, so Keldeo is what I perceive as the "overpowered" factor of this current metagame, if there's any (again, I'm still on the fence).

I don't agree with lumping Sun with Rain, though, since they're entirely different playstyles. Unlike Rain teams, Sun teams require significant support or multiple "glue" Pokemon to even begin to execute their plans. It must win the weather war, where Dugtrio and Gothitelle can come into play. Neither of them help with the countless other problems in running Sun, and you only have 3-4 slots to cover those problems and have a Sun Beneficiary to make all this hassle worth it in the first place. Sun unfortunately struggles with 6TSS (6 teamslot syndrome).
Sun is essentially a glasscannon team archetype - you can talk about all the destructive power of Sun, but don't deny the many defensive (or offensive) gaping holes that were left in the process. Sun is undoubtedly a powerful strategy, but this strategy requires a lot of work to succeed, and this large compromise explains why Sun is the lesser of the weather forces (Rain and Sand being the dominant ones). It's not Smogon Policy to ban an inconsistent playstyle.

 

[effyouzion]

The only reason Tyranitar is able to be such a good Pursuit user is because of sandstorm, otherwise it's 2HKOed by a lot of the things it's supposed to trap. Also, if you want a good look at how sand effects a tier on its own, see BW UU.

See this: 0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 164-194 (42.48 - 50.25%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

VS This:

0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 110-132 (28.49 - 34.19%) -- 99.17% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

50% special defense boost on a rare type (rock) is a lot less gamebreaking than a 50% power boost to a main attacking type. You could have 2-3 pokes that benefit from rain or sun on your team but you're never gonna have 2-3 that benefit from the SpD boost of sand.

I hated ttar in r/s cause the sand didn't do anything except make you take damage you probably didn't want to take unless you're running a team of steels/rocks/grounds. The 50% special boost means you actually get something out of it even if you're not using a bunch of pokes that are immune to the damage part.

 

[phantom]

You missed the point. it's just to emphasize that sand isn't as harmless as many make it out to be. and seriously, I just emphasized what the extra spd boost does. quit dismissing it like it's nothing. it makes quite difference when things like terrakion survive your starmies attack and kos.

 

[Boondocker]

Im not going to beat the dead horse too much, but i will say that alot of stuff needs to be banned. I've been playing competitively since the beginning of dp, and this is by far the worst metagame I've seen. I've heard maybe 3 players in this whole thread disagree. Out of respect for the OP i won't name names, but here are some things that i think are wrong:

1)When trying to build a stall team, the first thing i think of isn't how am i going to stop sweeper x,y, or z. Its OMG what if they have a trapper, ill insta-lose!

2)Rock-paper-scizors/team matchup arguement.

3)Too many mixed (and unstoppable) sweepers. Blissey is unviable because of special sweepers getting Psyshock, Secret Sword, or hell, even U-turn. Gliscor and Landerous-T will never be huge defensive threats, because every major physical sweeper can just run Hp ice. Mixed walls that lack 4x weaknesses will soon become a nessessity, and this limits diversity.

4)The type chart (im looking at you, dragon)

5)Brainlessness of the meta

Now, don't get it twisted, we can have a fun metagame without stall being viable. But we do need to stop players from trying to brainlessly outsweep eachother with broken things.

We cant fix everything. But we can fix some things by implementing bans. Nobody wants to do it but it has to be done. God gave us ban hammers for a reason, lets use them, and do so in a more swift manner then we have been doing. There are just too many Ubers running around in my Ou metagame. If we aren't willing to ban an increasing number of threats with each passing generation, then the Pokemon we used to know and love is forever replaced by shit.

Edit:What are some of the positives that come from having "too many Pokemon?" I've only heard bad things about it, but surely there has to be SOME good. Ill post my thoughts tomorrow when its not so late.

 

[George Eliot]

Boondocker - The basic advantage of lots of Pokémon is that you have an increased number of viable options, thus the meta is more versatile, less stale, more room for teambuilding creativity etc etc. Unfortunately, it also tends to favour offensive playstyles. Even if there are an equivalent number of extra defensive threats to offensive introduced, the fact that you can still only use 6 defensive mons (or 4-5, taking into account the need for hazards / spin / RKing etc) means that the more offensive threats are commonly seen, the harder it is to check them.

I'd personally love to see a metagame with a huge number of viable offensive threats, combined with a solid number of extremely strong defensive Pokémon which can't really be broken except by dedicated stallbreakers. In other words, defensive Pokémon should have "better" defenses than offensive Pokémon have offenses, and this gap is subsequently made up by increased versatility in threats. To me that's the healthy state of a meta which we should be aiming towards. Unfortunately we have exactly the opposite situation at the moment; virtually all defensive Pokémon, particularly on the special side, are completely outclassed by the offensive weapons they have to check.

 

[Avira]

I'd personally love to see a metagame with a huge number of viable offensive threats, combined with a solid number of extremely strong defensive Pokémon which can't really be broken except by dedicated stallbreakers. To me that's the healthy state of a meta which we should be aiming towards.

I can't really say that I agree with this. Although I think defensive playstyles should get a boost, what you describe would shift the pendulum too far to the other side.

There's also the fact that making what you described a reality would require a significant portion of OU getting banned.

 

[Pocket]

Not to mention, stall is a viable playstyle in OU. Lavos admitted in a previous post about being defeated by yee's stall team, and I've experienced plenty of strong semi-stall / defensive teams holding their weight in suspect battles and tournaments. There are numerous players, such as yee, BKC, Meru, and tehy, who have worked their magic with stall teams in BW2 OU.

I'd say that stall is viable, because most players focus on beating fast offensive threats, so they pack Pokemon that can beat those, and end up neglecting the true wallbreakers, which are usually fodder when facing offensive teams, to break through heavy-duty stall defensive cores. It also helps that most teams choose to forego a Rapid Spinner, so your stall team can really rack up residual damage through SR + Spikes.

For more information on stall in OU, I'd urge yall to visit Bad Ass's Stallhttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3481020 playstyle thread

 

[Cherub Agent]

What's wrong with the metagame? The presence of multiple overpowered offensive threats in Keldeo, Landorus-I and Kyurem-B, as well as the continued presence of sun and rain which cause games to be won at the team preview.

Of these things the thing that I think needs to be changed first is the banning of Keldeo. Others have already outlined why: with Politoed as a teammate it just powers through its counters with the Specs set or just KOs nigh everything that doesn't resist Water with its Scarf set. With Tyranitar as a partner, or Pokemon like Scarf Scizor, it doesn't even need to fear being countered. Keldeo's unparalleled power, brilliant speed, good bulk and excellent typing which leaves it resistant to Stealth Rock and priority is too much; it's one of the reasons we have an awful metagame. I might go into more detail oj the others, but my opinions have really already been given by others, and Keldeo is the thing I think needs to get out first.

 

[Nysyr]

Stall only grabs as many wins as it does since teams that try to prepare for keltar-i and rainspam/sun don't have the team slots to effectively deal with stall. So really its success is preying on the awful state of the meta.

Another side effect of more power is that you can make less mistakes. This mean predictions are more of a coin flip rather than learning your opponent to get more moves in your favour.

 

[Soul Fly]

Stall only grabs as many wins as it does since teams that try to prepare for keltar-i and rainspam/sun don't have the team slots to effectively deal with stall. So really its success is preying on the awful state of the meta.

Another side effect of more power is that you can make less mistakes. This mean predictions are more of a coin flip rather than learning your opponent to get more moves in your favour.

"Learning your opponent" isn't really a thing in this meta where games tend to be over before 20 turns. Not to mention irrational and/or high-risk play.
(Note: I'm specifically talking about ladder here)

 

[Nyara]

I'm not gonna use names because this's not the place.

The problem with BW? It's about the supreme win of either of four things:

- Buffs. Wins who buffs first.

- Hazards. Removing switching just makes VoltTurning as the unique viable ways to actually "do more than just buff and spam your favorite attack", of course, this makes the game a lot less minded as you can't switch now at all (just few Pokémon, those succesful VoltTurners can), drastically reducing your options to just buff and spam an attack.

- Overpowered Attacks. 120BP STAB with non-drawback is now standar. Yeah, and our improvements to defense are...? Roost? Yeah, Dragonite and Skarmory with roost will improve our metagame by alone.

- Almost Flawless Stallers. Well, with those monsters you're literally forced to lose, buff, or have an excesive specific counter. Actually, making counters for each staller sucks, so, just buff and win, thanks, flawless stallers, you're making buffs even more important that it should be. Oh, or well, you decide the game by a mere match up the 100% of time, whatever happens first.

That is. Gen. 4 also sucked for almost the same reasons, but BW improved the buffs to a demencial level, so, it's even worst. Nope, I'm not just talking about weather, the actual problem comes to a lot of more factors, too many that OU can't just be helped (nor even the other tiers at all that no one of them is all that good), it can be a bit improved with few complex bans (or massive bans), but I understand some people hates complex bans, and because the "let's complex ban" is a controversy, then we can't just do nothing at all; just play other generation, maybe NU, or just half-enjoy the actual one until the 6th pops up.

 

[casey90]

I think the problem with our current OU is the amount of immediate offensive pressure that is output. Our sweepers have too much power and coverage by themselves, followed by the fact that ALL (or at least most) of them have this trait. There are simply too many threats to account for. As others have pointed out, stall can and does work. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that only the best players succeed at it. In Gen 4, barring Salamence, Latias, and Garchomp (all of which were banned), most pokemon when they switched in threatened to wreck your S@%$ if you gave them a free turn of set up. Now your shits wrecked just for letting them switch in at all. It's the overly aggressive mindset associated with the power that makes Gen 5 OU WAY too offensive.

Weather boosted attacks seem to be a huge source of argument in regards to this issue. Where there is merit to this, I'd like to point out that when our offensive pokemon can 2hko 80% of the tier from turn one, all of this extra power is somewhat redundant. Rain specs pumps by themselves wouldn't mean as much if it was just them to worry about. Keldeo loses to Jellicent, Celebi, Tentacruel, and Toxicroak a large portion of the time. This would be fine, but now you also have to deal with The Landorus-I, and Tyranitar, and sun, and dragons, and terrakion... The problem lies with the idea that its easier to make offensive pokemon break defensive pokemon than it is to make walls that actually wall things. The OU power level has gotten so high and diverse that most pokemon don't even bother with set up anymore. The only set up i really see involves speed really, to get the jump on the things that still outspeed you.

looking back on the end of Gen 4 only one Pokemon had this level of offensive pressure, that was Salamence. I can guarantee if you introduced Terrakion, or Landorus-I or Keldeo, or Kyurem-B or Volcarona into late Gen 4 OU they would all get banned just as salamence did.

 

[Nyara]

Meh, while a lot of that is true, I don't thing the diversity of options disbalance the game, what it does is the fact that deffensive Pokémon are more stallers than before and offensive Pokémon are more berserker than before; destroying anything near to "mixed tactics" is what makes almost impossible to "react and make a plan" because you have just a single plan of game; either wall the popular or just buff and destroy everything.

Yeah, it also comes to the fact that we have better stallers and better offensive powerhorses than before, add hazards, add OP buffs; you have BW (and at some degree DPPT).

 

[skitz0phrenic]

Team Preview ruined Gen 5 competitively for me. I know that's a super old complaint this far in but it completely destroyed my desire to play seriously outside of VGC. Scouting teams used to be such an important part of the game and it still exists to a degree but it's much much different and I don't think anyone that played before Gen 5 could or would argue that. So much of Gen 5 OU battles are predetermined at team preview now, it's just dumb and boring.

Every gen has had stupidly powerful offensive threats or something centralizing at one point or another so I just don't buy those claims. Sure auto weather is annoying but so was Snorlax being on 95% of teams in GSC just because he was THAT good.

I know everyone has their own opinion on why they like or dislike a metagame so I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here. Just simply stating that team preview demolished this metagame for me and friends I used to play with and I think it's far too overlooked by people placing blame on things for why the metagame is so stale.

 

[Schpoonman]

Not to mention, stall is a viable playstyle in OU. Lavos admitted in a previous post about being defeated by yee's stall team, and I've experienced plenty of strong semi-stall / defensive teams holding their weight in suspect battles and tournaments. There are numerous players, such as yee, BKC, Meru, and tehy, who have worked their magic with stall teams in BW2 OU.

I'd say that stall is viable, because most players focus on beating fast offensive threats, so they pack Pokemon that can beat those, and end up neglecting the true wallbreakers, which are usually fodder when facing offensive teams, to break through heavy-duty stall defensive cores. It also helps that most teams choose to forego a Rapid Spinner, so your stall team can really rack up residual damage through SR + Spikes.

For more information on stall in OU, I'd urge yall to visit Bad Ass's Stallhttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3481020 playstyle thread

I'd say that you just outlined a few symptoms of how sick the metagame is. In DPP, stall teams won despite true wallbreakers being relatively commonplace. Now, they win because they aren't. What walls Choice Band Terrakion? What can switch in on any move it has and just not give a fuck? Giratina? That's not a healthy metagame.

Moreover, you also brought to light team match-up, and how you've lost before the game even begins. I have this problem with most teams I build; you can make an excellent offensive team that racks up wins against the overwhelming majority of other teams that are also offensive, but when you get matched up against a hard stall team, you simply flounder because you can't even 2HKO with a super effective attack. This existed in DPP and earlier, I'm not trying to paint BW in THAT bad of a light, but team match-up has never been THIS bad.

 

[Codraroll]

Weird, though, that we kinda seem to be wanting stuff that we complain is broken elsewhere. If we were offered Hurricane Zapdos, what would we say? Technician Weavile? Shift Gear Metagross? Head Smash Aerodactyl? We'd be jumping with joy, even though making the hard-hitters go faster and the fast-goers hit harder is what we think is ruining the metagame already.

Individually, a strong Pokémon receiving a strong move seems like a boon to fun and joy. Finally, Haxorus gets Fire Punch and has a way to deal with that pesky Ferrothorn. Finally, Garchomp gets Dragon Dance, meaning it can outspeed stuff without having to use a Scarf. Finally, Gengar has Nasty Plot, now it can hit hard even without Specs. We long for and embrace it whenever a favourite Pokémon gets a new tool. Pokémon for Pokémon, it's just fun. GameFreak see how much we enjoy it, and keep handing out more tools to every Pokémon every generation. But the sum of all the fun is a more offensive metagame, which seems to release a storm of complaints.

Is the problem with the metagame simply "Too much of the good things"?

 

[alexwolf]

I'd say that you just outlined a few symptoms of how sick the metagame is. In DPP, stall teams won despite true wallbreakers being relatively commonplace. Now, they win because they aren't. What walls Choice Band Terrakion? What can switch in on any move it has and just not give a fuck? Giratina? That's not a healthy metagame.

Try defensive Lando-T (and when i say defensive i mean 252/252+) with Wish support, 252/252+ Gliscor, or even bulky variants of Toxicroak in rain. Hippowdon is also almost a hard counter to it, as even with SR up CB Terra fails to 2HKO with CC most of the time.

Moreover, you also brought to light team match-up, and how you've lost before the game even begins. I have this problem with most teams I build; you can make an excellent offensive team that racks up wins against the overwhelming majority of other teams that are also offensive, but when you get matched up against a hard stall team, you simply flounder because you can't even 2HKO with a super effective attack. This existed in DPP and earlier, I'm not trying to paint BW in THAT bad of a light, but team match-up has never been THIS bad.

People tend to overplay a lot the increase of the match-up factor in BW2, as well as blame all the wrong reasons for it. The match-up reliance your team will have is up to you and you alone. With good teambuilding you can make match-up a non factor in most games, which is what matters. If you want you can use the standard stuff that everybody uses, and which have serious match-up reliance against certain teams, but then you can't blame anyone else except yourself for this. I know that covering most threats and having a successful team is harder now than ever, because there are a fuckton of things to prepare about, but it still can be done from my experience.

 

[BKC]

I appreciate the compliment Pocket but even I have to admit that stall is not (as) viable in the current metagame (as it was before). It depends on not facing the few things that completely rape it in order to be successful (Kyurem-B, Lando, Keld + Tar). If it doesn't come across those things, it's all good, but if it does go up against them, well, you're fucked! Not what I'd call reliable.

Also you said yourself why Sun is so retarded... it either completely dominates or gets dominated in return, there's almost zero middle ground. Is it inconsistent? Sure, but this matchup-dependent style is not something that exists in a healthy metagame. It is Smogon policy to ban things that take away from the emphasis on skill in battle and Sun does just that.

I think we got rid of sun/rain/Lando/Kyu-B/maybe Keldeo we'd have an amazing metagame. Those are what's really screwing the metagame up... I'd rather face a CB Terrakion than any of those, and that's scary.

 

[Conflict]

From my perspective nothing is wrong with the metagame (aside from unbanning some fun stuff).

I personally still win a huge majority of my OU Battles and am somehow also able to utilize Stallteams effectively (at least whenever i take out one of my stalls).

Dunno im happy. :)

 

[MikeDawg]

I feel like stall is better than ever (within the generation) at this point.

With all of the scarf keldeos and speed boosting landorus and such running around rather than swords dance terrakions, teams are hard pressed to break through the incredibly bulky walls.

 

[Soul Fly]

I feel like stall is better than ever (within the generation) at this point.

With all of the scarf keldeos and speed boosting landorus and such running around rather than swords dance terrakions, teams are hard pressed to break through the incredibly bulky walls.

Please enlighten me about these 'incredibly bulky walls' that SD Terrakion is 'hard pressed to break through'?

No I'm not picking on you, but last time I ran a damage calc, after SD this pokemon happened to 2HKO everything usable in OU (emphasis: yes, usable NOT viable) not named Golurk to whom it happens to 49.47% Damage at MINIMUM.

I'd say the same for Landorus but a few select pokemon like Celebi and Cresselia can actually wall it (provided it doesn't run horrible Coverage like sludge wave; so I'll give you that)

So please answer me.