Venasaur does gets Chlorophyll so he has some use over Jaroda in that respect.
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Venusaur
- Thread starter Raseri
- Start date
Venusaur makes a great check to most enemies in and of the fact that it can sleep them. Even without the sun Venusaur out speeds most of the weather changers and can Sleep Powder them. Then you bring in a solid counter and begin to either 1) Set up for a sweep, or 2) OHKO. Plus why you would leave their weather changers around long enough to screw with a sweep is beyond me.
If you are really scared of the weather changers you could even have Venusaur run Sunny Day itself. Sleep the enemy, Sunny Day up then kill them. Sludge Bomb and Solar Beam hit every weather changer for SE damage.
If you are really scared of the weather changers you could even have Venusaur run Sunny Day itself. Sleep the enemy, Sunny Day up then kill them. Sludge Bomb and Solar Beam hit every weather changer for SE damage.
Even if Solarbeam does hit Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon SE, its power gets cut in half when using it in Sandstorm. Also, anyone of them can simply switch in on the predicted Solarbeam as it charges, and switch back out to something that resists it.
If you want to run a purely Special set, then Leaf Storm and Giga Drain are better options. Leaf Storm is good if you want Venasaur to function as a hit and run attacker while Giga Drain works better if you want to sweep/stall. Venasaur has pretty good bulk and immunity to Toxic so using Giga Drain to heal its HP can make it difficult to take down. Petal Dance would be another option, but you're likely to be met with a 4x resist while you're locked into in and taken out easily.
If you want to run a purely Special set, then Leaf Storm and Giga Drain are better options. Leaf Storm is good if you want Venasaur to function as a hit and run attacker while Giga Drain works better if you want to sweep/stall. Venasaur has pretty good bulk and immunity to Toxic so using Giga Drain to heal its HP can make it difficult to take down. Petal Dance would be another option, but you're likely to be met with a 4x resist while you're locked into in and taken out easily.
Even without the sun Venusaur out speeds the weather changers. So he can fire off a sleep powder/sunny day, then atttack. His bulk means that none of the weather changers (Bar Abomasnow) will KO him if the sleep misses, or you decide to just sunny day right off the bat. Also if you are running a Sunny Day team you tend to have a counter or 2 to the weather changers around.
yea but in general don't use solar beam. it's the most nerfed move in the game.
Venusaur also has Petal Dance, Power Whip, and Sleep Powder access. Power Whip allows it to make up for its weaker Atk with a move which is effectively 180 BP (with STAB) to Seed Bomb's 120 (it being Shiftry's strongest physical Grass move).
Petal Dance is an option for those not wishing to cripple SpAtk like leaf Storm or risk weather changes like Solarbeam, and Sleep powder provides obvious great utility and the ability to screw over a counter. Nature Power does help Shiftry though, especially as nothing much will be taunting it before being hit by an EQ.
In actuality, Sleep powder isn't totally necessary to deal with the other weather changers. HP Fire obviously destroys Abomasnow; depending on its defensive investment either Power Whip or Solarbeam/Petal Dance will OHKO Politoed with SR (Leaf Storm always will with no entry hazards); Solarbeam/Petal Dance does at least 97.6% to the most SpDef Hippowdon; and Solarbeam/Petal Dance will 2HKO all TTar (in sand) while Power Whip can just about OHKO offensive variants. Moreover, of those able to take 2 of Saurs hits, none can OHKO back except CBTar.
I've been using a standard SD Venusaur in gen IV UU over the last day, and it completely rapes (6-0ing multiple teams). It's only drawback from making it to OU is, I think, it's rather mediocre speed (for OU standards, that is), but with sun support and Chlorophyll this thing will rape even harder than it already does now.
Not to mention Growth acting as a NP and SD in one go...
I just realized all the buffs Venusaur gets under the sun. Double Synthesis recovery, Growth's boost doubles it's attack and Sp. attack (an SD and a NP boost in one go) and it's speed is also doubled with Chlorophyll. Damn, this thing is a beast under direct sunlight.
Not quite as effective outside of it though. Sleep Powder and Growth are still good, but Synthesis gets nerfed by other weather conditions and Chlorophyll is useless outside of sunlight.
Still, Venusaur has access to just about all of the worthwile Grass moves in the game (except Leaf Blade and Seed Flare, the latter of which is a Shaymin exclusive so it shouldn't count.) It gets Energy Ball, Seed Bomb, Grass Knot, Solarbeam, Leaf Storm, Petal Dance and Power Whip. I don't think there's a single other Pokemon out there (besides Smeargle) that has access to all of those moves at once.
It also gets fairly okay coverage (EQ, Sludge Bomb, HP, Outrage) and Sleep Powder (and Leech Seed) for utility. This is his biggest drawback. It's list of coverage moves does leave a lot to be desired. Still, with SD and Growth, all's not lost. Thanks to it's decent bulk, it can boost it's stats to the point were the few coverage moves it does get become deadly enough.
Outside of the sun, Venusaur still makes a pretty damn solid UU Poke, but under direct sunlight? Venusaur is a freaking monster. If Drought Ninetales becomes popular enough, he might just follow her into the OU tier.
He'd make a fantastic mixed sweeper with Growth, Physical sweeper with SD (or Growth) and Special sweeper with Growth (under the sun, you can even afford to use Growth for just one of it's stat boosts, ignoring the other, since it's essentially SD and NP rolled into one) and tank (thank you Synthesis). If only he had better coverage. Still EQ and HP are excellent ways to round out Venus weaknesses (especially with Growth under the sun and Chlorophyll).
Without perma sun though, I see Venu sticking to UU.
Maybe he'll be banished to BL? Sun sweeping may just gain a ton of more appeal in the lower tiers thanks to this guy, Solar Power Charizard, Chlorophyll Leafeon and Leaf Guard Meganium (even without Drought Vulpix/Ninetales) that he might still be considered broken in UU.
Not quite as effective outside of it though. Sleep Powder and Growth are still good, but Synthesis gets nerfed by other weather conditions and Chlorophyll is useless outside of sunlight.
Still, Venusaur has access to just about all of the worthwile Grass moves in the game (except Leaf Blade and Seed Flare, the latter of which is a Shaymin exclusive so it shouldn't count.) It gets Energy Ball, Seed Bomb, Grass Knot, Solarbeam, Leaf Storm, Petal Dance and Power Whip. I don't think there's a single other Pokemon out there (besides Smeargle) that has access to all of those moves at once.
It also gets fairly okay coverage (EQ, Sludge Bomb, HP, Outrage) and Sleep Powder (and Leech Seed) for utility. This is his biggest drawback. It's list of coverage moves does leave a lot to be desired. Still, with SD and Growth, all's not lost. Thanks to it's decent bulk, it can boost it's stats to the point were the few coverage moves it does get become deadly enough.
Outside of the sun, Venusaur still makes a pretty damn solid UU Poke, but under direct sunlight? Venusaur is a freaking monster. If Drought Ninetales becomes popular enough, he might just follow her into the OU tier.
He'd make a fantastic mixed sweeper with Growth, Physical sweeper with SD (or Growth) and Special sweeper with Growth (under the sun, you can even afford to use Growth for just one of it's stat boosts, ignoring the other, since it's essentially SD and NP rolled into one) and tank (thank you Synthesis). If only he had better coverage. Still EQ and HP are excellent ways to round out Venus weaknesses (especially with Growth under the sun and Chlorophyll).
Without perma sun though, I see Venu sticking to UU.
Maybe he'll be banished to BL? Sun sweeping may just gain a ton of more appeal in the lower tiers thanks to this guy, Solar Power Charizard, Chlorophyll Leafeon and Leaf Guard Meganium (even without Drought Vulpix/Ninetales) that he might still be considered broken in UU.
I truly think he will be one of the premier Sun abusers, though where he matches up compared to the rest of OU will depend on where Sun rests in the weather hierachy imo.
Only Shiftry, Victreebel, Tangrowth and Exeggutor have comparable sweeping abilities under Sun of all the chlorophyll users. Hahakurimo and Leafeon are hurt badly by lack of coverage, as is Mebukijika. Of the other possible Sun sweepers, Tangrowth has better Def and attacking stats but pathetic SpDef and Speed; Eggy has awesome attacking stats but lacks speed and bulk; Victreebel is both fast and powerful but is frail and leaves some to be desired with its coverage; Shiftry is probably the most similar, but lacks bulk compared to Saur. With luck all 5 will find niches on Sun teams.
Outrage and Chlorophyll are incompatible. A part of me died when I realized that.
I miss the time in early DP when it was both rebellious and original to use physical Venusaur.
Is Outrage a new move on Venusaur? Or does everybody mean Petal Dance? I haven't seen Outrage appear in any of its move lists.
Even Adamant LO Outrage doesn't OHKO no defensive investment Chomp (an is unlikely to with SR)... Outrage really isn't worth it without STAB and a colossal Atk Stat.
Edit: Outrage is a 4th Gen tutor move.
Chlorophyll Venusaur can also go with a mono attack Solarbeam set with SubSeed and Sleep Powder. If a slower counter switches in, ry Sleep them, or simply switch out. Has great synergy with DroughtNinetales.
It could learn Outrage via Platinum move tutor.
I agree, with the slight exception that Petal Dance may be viable over the Grass move if you don't mind getting locked in. Its sheer power is pretty amazing once a Growth has been achieved.
It had Outrage in generation 4 I think. Infact, a surprising amount of Pokemon did. Outrage could be better than Petal Dance in some cases, such as Outrage being physical, and while it doesn't get STAB, it hits neutral on everything except Steels. With Petal Dance, there's a lot more you have to worry about, and there's quite a few Pokemon that resist it 4x.
For that stall moveset that was earlier in the thread (this one) :
Maybe venom shock could be added onto here instead of giga drain or leech seed? Granted, venom shock wouldn't exactly be useful for stalling, but I think that venom shock has some potential, especially if coupled with toxic spikes.
Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Naive Nature (+Spe, -Sp.Def)
EVs: 124 Atk / 252 Sp.Atk / 132 Spe
- Growth
- Petal Dance
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Earthquake
I've been using this after Breludicolo posted the moveset last page. The thing is terrifying if you've got Entry Hazard support.
(Bold / 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Def)
Earthquake 46.1% - 54.3%
Petal Dance 45.8% - 53.9%
Hidden Power 26.6% - 31.4%
(Calm / 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.Def)
Earthquake 104.9% - 123.5%
Petal Dance 34.6% - 40.9%
Hidden Power 20.2% - 23.8%
(Bold / 252 HP / 4 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 75.9% - 89.4%
Hidden Power 43.9% - 51.8%
(Calm / 252 HP / 252 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 57.4% - 67.6%
Hidden Power 33.1% - 39.2%
(Bold / 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 78.6% - 92.5%
Hidden Power 45.7% - 54%
Earthquake 25.1% - 29.7%
(Calm / 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 56.4% - 66.6%
Earthquake 35.3% - 41.7%
Hidden Power 32.6% - 38.5%
(Impish / 252 HP / 252 Def /4 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 79.6% - 94%
Hidden Power 45.8% - 54.2%
Earthquake 25.7% - 30.6%
(Careful / 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.Def)
Petal Dance 59.5% - 70.1%
Hidden Power 34.9% - 41.2%
Earthquake 33.8% - 40.1%
(Bold / 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp.Def
Petal Dance 92.1% - 108.9%
Hidden Power 53.9% - 63.5%
Earthquake 30.9% - 36.5%
(Calm / 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Sp.Def
Petal Dance 71.4% - 84.2%
Hidden Power 41.8% - 49.3%
Earthquake 39.8% - 47%
(Careful / 252 HP / 252 Sp.Def)
Hidden Power 39.8% - 47.2%
Petal Dance 17.2% - 20.3%
Potential 2HKO with Stealth Rock but still, fuck you Golbat.
Salamence, Dragonite and the Lati twins actually make pretty good counters, although non-bulky mence is at risk of been 2HKOed with SR in play. Balloon Heatran completely counters it, and especially loves coming in on HP Fire with Sunshine in effect. Besides that most Specially bulky Steels can come in once 'saur is locked into Petal Dance although only a few can really do anything back. Same goes for Grass types, particuarly rival Venusaur. Basically speaking you want to save Petal Dance until anything that can take advantage of it is dead/weakened. Besides that Ditto checks it like it checks most things, Charizard and Moltres can stop it if they aren't maimed by Stealth Rock first (Charizard especially since Solar Power is cool) and Balloon Heatproof Bronzong is a super cool counter that serves little practical purpose doing anything else.
Anything else that isn't on the list is either "Uber" on PO, OHKOed by one of Venu's moves or I forgot it exists. Venusaur is completely brought to a halt by Lugia, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza and Giratina but with the right support he could actually be a somewhat decent sweeper in "Ubers" (Although I'd probably run Power Whip with a much higher Atk investment if using him there).
tl;dr Venusaur for OU!
Outrage is pretty terrible without STAB. Seed Bomb has the same power as Outrage due to STAB and won't get you revenge killed as easily (just about any Steel type can come in on your unstabbed Outrage and either set up or kill you outright). The same can be said about Petal Dance, which is why I'll never use it.
Grass and Poison cover every type in the game at least neutrally with the exceptions of Steel and Poison. This means that with EQ, you have theoretically perfect neutral coverage. Of course, then there's practice which is a completely different thing. Levitating Poison or Steel types like Weezing and Bronzong can put a full stop on you as can Flying typed Poison and Steel types (Crobat and Skarmory), etcetera. Still, it's a good combination with great neutral coverage (though the super effective coverage leaves a little to be desired, only hitting four types: Grass, Water, Ground and Rock)