Venomoth (Uber Analysis)

[sammao]

Hi. I have post uber lead Venomoth yesterday, I have no idea why the whole thread was disappeared. I have not receive anything from the moderator saying about why it disappeared, but if you guys deleted it, please at least tell me why. Firecape was the only one that said a comment that he thought Roserade outclassed this, but this is not the case. Ven can stop Deoxy-S set up 2 layers through U-turn+priority while Rose cannot acomplish. Also Ven can sleep powder Shaymin-S safely thanks to shield dust protect it from flinch.

This is my first analysis, please tell me if the format is not correct and how to fix it. I am following the format of the Azelf analysis in QC that is made by Shrang.
Anyway this is it again.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venomoth

[Overview]
At first glance, Venomoth may seem like a bad choice in uber due to low stat overall, but it can be a effective lead. U-Turn together with priority user of your team stops Deoxy-S set up more than one hazards, while Sleep powder and Toxic Spikes allow the moth to set up and/or cripple rest of the lead.
[SET]
name: Uber lead Moth
move 1: U-Turn
move 2: Sleep powder
move 3: Toxic Spikes
move 4: Protect
item: Focus Sash
nature: Jolly
Ability: Shield Dust
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- U-turn get stab, together with max Atk ev investment, it rival the power of Mew U-turn despite only 65 base Atk, then finish Deoxy-S with priorty.
U-turn + Life Orb 100Atk ev Scizor bullet punch does a minimum of 97.7% on MAX hp Deoxy-S. Any stronger priority (like Giratina-O shadow sneak) can guarantee the KO
-T-spikes allows you to set up two layer on slow lead (Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga).
-Fast/Priority lead (Rayquazza, Deoxy-A, Giratina-O) can be crippled with sleep powder and then you set up at least one layer as your opponent switch to a counter.
-Shield dust protect you from Shaymin-S flinch so you can sleep powder it.
-Protect is a rather filler move but it can scout what Darkari do, then you can decide either send in Choice Scarfer to absorb Trick Scarf or Sleep talker to absorb sleep
- A lot of uncommon lead still lose to this due to sleep powder, examples are Forretress, Lucario, Deoxy, Infernape, Mamoswine, Giratina, Froslass, Qwilfish, Cloyster and more since they all don't carry Lum/Chesto berry

Additional Comments:
- Protect is only useful for Darkari and not much use otherwise, so Stun Spore, Thief or other moves can possibly replace it if you like
- Sleep powder is a great asset and differentiate itself from other Toxic Spiker lead such as Cloyster and Qwilfish, since sleep powder can cripple just about every non lum/chesto berry lead.

Teammates and Counters:
- Teammates: Sleep absorber to take Dark Void is essential (CM Kyogre, BU Dialga, Heracross, etc). Choice Scarf user such as Palkia and Garchomp is also needed. Giratina-O block Rapid Spin and has shadow sneak to pick up Deoxy-S. Stealth rock user is needed, Groudon is especially good since it counter Scizor, Metagross and Tyranitar easily, whom give Venomoth trouble.

- Counters: Darkari can still beat you, especially when it holds focus sash, as it can Nasty plot on your protect and threaten the rest of your team. Lum Berry+ Priority lead such as Scizor and Metagross as both only allow you to set up 1 layer and don't mind sleep powder. Lum Berry Tyranitar also give you trouble as sandstorm also stop you set up more than 1 layer

[Team Options]
-Bulk up Dialga and RestTalk Kyogre to talk Dark Void
-Support Groudon and Dialga to set up SR and counter Metagross, Scizor and Tyranitar
-Giratina-O to block Rapid Spin and has Shadow sneak to pick up Deoxy-S

[Optional Changes]
-Generally anything should only replace protect, all other moves are essential
-Stun spore to cripple one more pokemon after you sleep something
-Thief to steal an item after focus sash is consumed
-Any non lead sets are mediocre, due it Venomoth low stat overall


[Counters]
-Scizor and Metagross
-Darkari
-Tyranitar

[EDIT]
The following is not mean to put in the analysis, but to convince people that Venomoth lead works well in Uber. I have listed just about every lead that I have heard of and how Venomoth deals with them.

Deoxy-S: Like what the analysis said, U-turn + Priority of your team allowing it only one layer Win
Groudon: Usually this don't carry lum berry these days, so sleep powder + set up T-Spikes, if worry about the berry, then just set up the two layers by sacrificing yourself. Win
Darkari: Protect first to see what it does, then either send in a sleep talker or choice scarfer. Still a lose since it can Nasty plot from beginning, but very few lead can deal with this guy anyway. Lose I guess but you have a chance
Shaymin-S: Air Slash cannot flinch you thanks to shield dust. So you sleep it, then set up at least one layer as they switch to a counter. Sleep one and set up one layer in exchange of a pokemon should be a win, right? Win
Deoxy-A: Sleep powder as they never carry lum, then set up Win
Rayquazza: Same as Deoxy-A Win
Kyogre: Set up two layers by sacrificing yourself Win unless it is scarf, in that case you can sleep powder turn 1
Dialga: Same as Kyogre Win
Mew: Somewhat tricky. You outspeed it and can set up 1 layer turn one and see what it does. If it set up SR, then go ahead and set up your second layer. If it taunt you, then you U-turn out to a counter turn 2, usually scizor or Giratina-O to block explosion. After that Mew on turn 2 may set up SR, which means both sides has hazzard but you have your Mew counter facing Mew, or Mew may U-turn to their Giratina-O/ Scizor counter but it does not set up SR. A tide I suppose

Uncommon Lead
Giratina-O: You outspeed this guy, so sleep powder + set up, it can only break your sash with Shadow sneak Win
Deoxy: It usually doesn't carry taunt, so sleep powder + set up Win
Scizor: Mentioned in analysis this is a counter Lose
Forretress: Outspeed it and sleep + set up Win
Mamoswine: See Giratina-O except Ice shard instead of Shadow Sneak Win
Metagross: See Scizor Lose
Lucario: See Giratina-O except Extreme speed instead of Shadow Sneak Win
Infernape: You still sleep it despite it outspeed you, then set up. The best it can do to you is U-turn turn 1 to a sleep talker, but you still sleep one pokemon. Sleep talker are usually slow, so even if it sleep talk an attacking move you should still able to set up at least one layer AND sleep one pokemon Win
Mewtwo: It usually doesn't have lum berry or taunt when leading, so sleep powder + set up Win
Tyranitar: See Scizor Lose
Cloyster: See Mamoswine Win
Qwilfish: See Cloyster except aqua jet instead of Ice Shard Win
Froslass: It can only beat Ven if it carry taunt, which is rare. If not, sleep powder Win/Lose depends on taunt or no taunt
Lv 1 Smeargle: See Forretress Win
Scarf Azelf: Somewhat similar to Infernape, you still sleep one pokemon even though it outspeed you. The best Azelf can do is U-turn to a sleep talker, but you still set up at least one layer AND sleep one pokemon Win
Abomasnow: It doesn't carry Lum berry in lead, so Sleep + set up, even though hail break your sash Win
Giratina: See his cousin, Giratina-O Win

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Your thread's here. I'm pretty sure it was rejected because it didn't meet the rules, so I doubt you'll accomplish anything by posting the analysis again.

 

[sammao]

I have tried to "mimic" the format of shang's Azelf analysis, Megan Fox's Aggron analysis, and Belphagor's Celebi analysis that is currently on QC. Can someone at least tell me what is wrong on my analysis?

 

[firecape]

It was originally moved for a combination of wrong formatting and the fact that it isn't really too good. In the future, if you find your thread has been moved/deleted for any reason, it is not really the best thing to repost it. The best course of action would be to look at the list of moderators for the forum you posted it in, and PM or VM them to inquire. On the note of Venomoth, my 1/3 rejection still holds, if this isn't just moved when a moderator sees it.

 

[sammao]

Thanks for telling me about that, Firecape. Again this is my first analysis and I am not too familiar with the rule. But can you or anyone make some suggestions what else I need to add? Also I have explained Roserade does not outclassed this due to stopping Deoxy-S set up 2 layers and Shaymin-S flinching, can you explain why you still hold your rejection stamp?

 

[firecape]

My other post explained quite clearly. I was saying Roserade outclasses this in terms of midgame utility. As I stated in my other post 2 important qualities of a lead are 1) performs well in the lead slot, and 2) has midgame utility if 1 isn't true. Roserade doesn't really perform that amazing in the lead slot, and it doesn't have much midgame utility either.

 

[Conflict]

I find this set pretty interesting to be honest.

It does practically the same as a Cloyster-lead in the Ubers tier. And believe me, Cloyster has no midgame utility (i played it for some time). Theorymon and even Jibaku used Cloyster, so when they find Cloyster is viable, why shouldnt Venomoth be?


I think thought that HP [Ice] should be slashed over Protect as long as you use a Mild Nature with 252 SpA-EV's for the likely Ohko on Shaymin-S.

 

[firecape]

Cloyster is also virtually the only other Ubers-viable Pokemon that learns not only Toxic Spikes, but Rapid Spin as well. I'm willing to change my mind if some convincing logs are provided I guess...

 

[sammao]

Conflict: even Mild 252 SpAtk ev HP ice cannot guarantee the KO on Shaymin-S, it does 97.4% minimum. More importantly, Ven need to pump all ev to atk to boost U-turn power in order to bring down Deoxy-S. Sleep Powder already cripples Shaymin-S, while Deoxy-S can taunt you if you are unable to kill it with U-turn+ Priority.

Firecape: I will try to make some logs, also I have posted several new paragraphs about how Venomoth works against pretty much all the lead I have heard of, as you might have seen. Also, sleep powder is the biggest advantage of Venomoth over Cloyster and Qwilfish. Venomoth can cripple the fast/priority lead that gives Cloyster and Qwilfish trouble.

 

[sammao]

I just realized this is not in Quality Control, can a moderator help me to move it?

 

[Nexus]

A separate Quality Control forum does not exist anymore, just go to your original post click on "Edit" at the bottom-right hand corner, then click "go advanced" and select "Quality Control" from the Title option at the upper-left hand corner of the post.

 

[Flashrider57]

I just realized this is not in Quality Control, can a moderator help me to move it?

You can do it yourself by going to "Edit" for the original post, then "Advanced Options", then changing the tag to "Quality Control"

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[SOMALIA]

Also Ven can sleep powder Shaymin-S safely thanks to shield dust protect it from flinch.

I don't think Lead Shaymin-S is common at all and by the time your opponent sends out Shaymin, chances are your Venemoth won't have a 'sash' on to live an Air Slash ._. . This set only is effective for a minority of leads and you need a 'priority' user as stated in the OP to ensure Deoxys does not get more than one layer of Spikes...

 

[sammao]

SOMALIA: Yes, Shaymin-S lead isn't common these days, but Ven's ability to deal with it is still a bouns. Also please elaborate when you said " This set only effective for a minority of leads". I have explained in the first thread how Venomoth "Win" against the majority of lead. In fact, Ven only really lose to Darkari, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Scizor. Only Darkari is a common lead among the four. Moreover, Mew, together with Infernape lead, deal with Deoxy-S exactly the same way as Venomoth. While Ven only has base 65 atk, it has STAB on U-turn , together with max atk investment, it is just as strong as the U-turn of the other two.

 

[SOMALIA]

SOMALIA: Yes, Shaymin-S lead isn't common these days, but Ven's ability to deal with it is still a bouns. Also please elaborate when you said " This set only effective for a minority of leads". I have explained in the first thread how Venomoth "Win" against the majority of lead. In fact, Ven only really lose to Darkari, Tyranitar, Metagross, and Scizor. Only Darkari is a common lead among the four. Moreover, Mew, together with Infernape lead, deal with Deoxy-S exactly the same way as Venomoth. While Ven only has base 65 atk, it has STAB on U-turn , together with max atk investment, it is just as strong as the U-turn of the other two.

You base your whole argument around the idea of Venomoth being able to handle Deoxys leads. Furthermore you yourself said that you need a 'priority user' to make sure it does not land more than layers of hazards....which is likely Rayquaza or Giritina-O and I don't think it is wise sending them out turn 2. My final point is that so what if it can put a number of leads to sleep? It cannot switch into almost anything without dying and has poor typing.
Have you tried it by the way? I'd love to see some logs of its 'effectiveness'.

Yes, Shaymin-S lead isn't common these days, but Ven's ability to deal with it is still a bouns.

I don't think you quite understand what I said earlier. I guarantee you Venomoth won't be alive midgame when Shaymin-S is sent out let alone still equipped with Focus Sash to be able to live an Air Slash.

 

[Great Sage]

You still haven't done the other part of what I asked, which is to learn a bit about the metagame for which you're writing.