Using non-OU Pokémon in OU Teams

[Kefky]

This is my first attempt at a serious post. English is not my first language, so I hope you will excuse little grammar mistakes here and there.

I have noticed that when most people decide to use a UU/NU Pokémon in their teams, it is not because that Pokémon performs the needed role better than any other candidate.

People normally use those Pokémon as gimmicks, to add an element of surprise to their teams. There are some people who use UU Pokémon because "it's cool", in situations where an OU Pokémon would fit much better in the team. I am not saying that using gimmicks is wrong, or detrimental to a team.

What I mean is that, when building a team, most people will look at the current OU tier as the only list of playable Pokémon. I think that is not the correct way of making a good team.

The OU tier is a list of the most USED Pokémon, not necessarily the best ones (though, in most cases, they are) which means that a good OU team should be able to beat teams composed of any OU Pokémon. The tier should be used as an indicator of what kind of Pokémon your OU team is going to face.

In some cases, a Pokémon is UU because the role it performs best is very situational. What if your team needs a Pokémon to fit exactly that role? Let me give some examples.

Gastrodon (NU)

A typical Curse Gastrodon will have 425 HP, 202 Attack, 174 Defense and 289 Special Defense.

A typical Curse Swampert will have 404 HP, 256 Attack, 256 Defense and 240 Special Defense.

However, what you don't see in those stats is that Gastrodon learns Recover, in addition to being immune to Trick due to its ability, Sticky Hold.

Which means that, in a team that gets many free turns, a Gastrodon will actually perform better than a Swampert. (I am only comparing the Curse sets of both Pokémon, I am NOT saying that Swampert is a worse Pokémon). Once Gastrodon gets a couple of Curses it can mantain them way better than Swampert.

Should you always use Gastrodon instead of Swampert? No. Gastrodon has worse stats and does not learn Stealth Rock or Roar. But Gastrodon is not a worse Swampert. They are different Pokémon that fulfill different, but similar roles.

Another good example would be Machamp VS Hariyama. I won't go into detail here but there are several situations where a Hariyama would do better.

There are also Pokémon who don't have a "better" counterpart in a higher tier.

I have been using a Jumpluff in OU for some time. Jumpluff can be a very difficult Pokémon to take down, with a 350 Speed Encore + Subseeding (in addition to Sleep Powder for emergencies). If your opponent is without a Grass Pokémon or a really fast Ice Pokémon, it may very well mean he's lost the match once Jumpluff comes out.


Conclusion (tl;dr)

All Pokémon are different. Most Pokémon can do something special that no other Pokémon can do. The OU tier should be used as what it is: a list of which Pokémon you will most likely face in an OU match. Don't discriminate Pokémon in the lower tiers, they may be just what your team needs.

And in case someone missed my point: I am not necessarily saying that UU Pokémon should be used more. I am merely saying that a good team builder will consider ALL Pokémon when making a team, and not only some.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Wakalord]

Of course a team builder will consider a wide variety of Pokemon. Porygon2 is UU, but is perhaps the best Gyarados counter in the game. Mr. Mime is NU but invaluable on Baton Pass teams. etc

It seems you are complaining about people who are generally inexperienced in competitive gaming, as rarely do experienced Pokemon players discriminate against lower tiered Pokemon. And really, what is the point of complaining about such people, they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Kefky]

Of course a team builder will consider a wide variety of Pokemon. Porygon2 is UU, but is perhaps the best Gyarados counter in the game. Mr. Mime is NU but invaluable on Baton Pass teams. etc

It seems you are complaining about people who are generally inexperienced in competitive gaming, as rarely do experienced Pokemon players discriminate against lower tiered Pokemon. And really, what is the point of complaining about such people, they don't know what they are talking about.

I am not complaining. I am trying to make those people understand, so they can be better players.

Besides, I know some very good players who would never consider using anything other than OU.

 

[Iced_Of_Tundra]

Of course a team builder will consider a wide variety of Pokemon. Porygon2 is UU, but is perhaps the best Gyarados counter in the game. Mr. Mime is NU but invaluable on Baton Pass teams. etc

It seems you are complaining about people who are generally inexperienced in competitive gaming, as rarely do experienced Pokemon players discriminate against lower tiered Pokemon. And really, what is the point of complaining about such people, they don't know what they are talking about.

I don't really see it as a complain. I see it more like a little guide or help to those newer players who don't consider lower tiers. Lots of people wont do it, and I find it fine to talk about it.

I think it's true, I've been using gastrodon for a while and it works fine. It also happens with som steel tipe pokemon. Sometimes I see the same thing happening with registeel, wich isnt used because things like zong are there.

 

[ACDCGAMER]

You make a very good point, Kefka. I do regret that I stick entirely to OU Pokemon since I assume that they're almost always better than UU-tiered Pokes, but I should look at some UU Pokemon when I make a new team or work one I've made already in order to improve it.

 

[Dr. Eyepatch]

I am very glad you chose Gastrodon to convey your points, because Gastrodon is a prime example.

Now... Gastrodon is my favorite pokémon; anyone who has battled me or reviewed my teams could tell you this. Do I use Gastrodon because it is my favorite..? Well, yes, but that is more like the icing on the cake. Although I do not necessarily use the Curse set, Gastrodon has always been a shining force in my party because of the niche only it can fulfill. A varied movepool, excellent typing, handy ability and appropriate stats for what it does makes me choose it more often than any other Bulky Water.

But, I digress. Like Gastrodon, other lesser-used pokémon have their own advantages which should be considered when building a team. Novelty is great (or in some cases, absurd), but some people need to look past that and into the utility of UU's and NU's in the OU environment. How do you suppose Flygon and Scizor rose to OU..? (Well, the Platinum move tutor really helped them find their niche.)

 

[Veedrock]

I don't want to litter this thread with moral jabs and whatnot, so I'll keep this short:

OU Pokemon are overused for a reason; because they're good (for the most part). It's only natural that people make that their first and foremost choice when looking for a pokemon to fit their team. Is there possibly something outside of OU that'll work? Yes. Do they necessarily have to bother looking? Not if they've found what they need. If the external option was superior, they wouldn't need to go out of their way because it's already well known (possibly in OU for it). Jumpluff is a superb subseeder and possibly the best choice for one, but anybody that likes subseeding will know Jumpluff is the way to go without having to do extrenuous looking. I suppose that fits up there with what Wakalord said about better players not overlooking "because they aren't OU." It's not fair to criticize one for using OU pokemon in OU (that's not you're attempting I'm sure, but it's similar).

 

[Kefky]

I don't want to litter this thread with moral jabs and whatnot, so I'll keep this short:

OU Pokemon are overused for a reason; because they're good (for the most part). It's only natural that people make that their first and foremost choice when looking for a pokemon to fit their team. Is there possibly something outside of OU that'll work? Yes. Do they necessarily have to bother looking? Not if they've found what they need. It's not fair to criticize one for using OU pokemon in OU (that's not you're attempting I'm sure, but it's similar).

I am not attempting to criticize anyone, as you said. Why bother looking? Because maybe, just maybe, if you make the effort your team will benefit from it.

 

[Scofield]

I don't discount any pokemon just because they are not OU when building a team. When I built a team and wanted a fast reliable sleep, Roserade was the only option. When I built an offensive team that needed spikes and a grass type, Roserade was the only option. Yes, I love roserade >_>

Generally, the only reason I don't use a pokemon is if it is outclassed, which a lot of non OU pokemon just tend to be, doesn't mean they aren't useable on the right team.

 

[the_artic_one]

Seriously, if you're not using SR on swampert, you should probably be using gastrodon.

 

[petrie911]

If you're running a Sand Stream user, Cradily is something to consider. It can either run a full stalling set or Swords Dance. The latter is quite fun to set up on bulky waters. They always try to roar you out.

 

[wildfire393]

I don't automatically discount UU Pokemon on my teams. In fact, I've used couple (notably Claydol, who is in my opinion the best Spinner in the game. Sadly spinners aren't really viable anymore). The way I see it, there are two main reasons to use a UU Pokemon:

1) It provides attributes unavailable to OU Pokemon. Good examples of this include Abomasnow, who can set up permanent Hail, Porygon-2, the only viable user of Trace, and Gastrodon, the best user of Sticky Hold
2) Surprise. Generally the Pokemon needs to have something from 1 to be worth using, but as an added bonus, people may often not know what to expect from it. I've gotten blown out by Pinsir because I'd never faced it before and tried switching Rotom-H in on his Earthquake. The problem is, surprise is always temporary. You will not be able to consistently win off of surprise, as eventually the players you are facing will stop being surprised.

 

[thetorsoboy]

I love using UU Pokemon. Venomoth, Porygon2 (Probably my favorite), as well as some sweepers...

I mean, it really depends on your team. Some UU Pokemon fit roles that OU Pokemon can't. (Because of movepools and whatnot) It just depends really. But where you draw the line is when you basically use copies of things.

Or, you can always use UU in OU because you like UU Pokemon better, too. :P

 

[yokie]

Clefable is definitely viable in OU. The problem is that people try to use Clefable in OU like a Blissey; it is not your all purpose special wall like Blissey. If you don't use it correctly, don't bother. If you don't utilize Clefable's unique talents over Blissey (ie Encore, Trick, bulky CM, Endeavor, Magic Guard abuse, or even Reflect), then do not use Clefable in OU. Also, Clefable is best known for eating stall teams alive, in both UU and OU.

 

[monkymeet]

1) It provides attributes unavailable to OU Pokemon. Good examples of this include Abomasnow, who can set up permanent Hail, Porygon-2, the only viable user of Trace, and Gastrodon, the best user of Sticky Hold

I'd say it's debatable. Gardevoir uses Trace rather well too, and in general is an excellent supporter with numerous options.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think the OP made a rather open-minded and neutrally based post, so well done. When a lot of people explain this issue, they are insanely one-sided, and it makes me furious.

I don't know how much of an issue this is though. I mean, we get slight amounts of fluctuation in the tiers anyway. If there were too many people who never used non-OU Pokemon, Pokemon such as Smeargle could never rise up into OU.

I personally don't use that many non-OU Pokemon in my OU teams, simply because I can usually find something better, and, at the end of the day, that's the very reason why such Pokemon aren't OU in the first place. I use Porygon 2 a lot though.

However, try talking to Serebii members about this! A lot of them are convinced that UU Pokmemon are better than OU Pokemon.

 

[obi]

This reminds me somewhat of a thread I posted about two years ago:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24550

 

[haunter]

All Pokémon are different. Most Pokémon can do something special that no other Pokémon can do. The OU tier should be used as what it is: a list of which Pokémon you will most likely face in an OU match. Don't discriminate Pokémon in the lower tiers, they may be just what your team needs.

Pokemon are tiered accordingly to their usage, and if there are some which are exponentially more used than others, it's probably because they are stronger, this is obvious. People usually play to win, so I'm not surprised that they use Salamence over Altaria.

However, there are some exceptions, and, by the way, the recent suspect test has shown clearly that pokemon like Ludicolo and Kabutops can fit perfectly in OU teams when supported by the rain.
Nonetheless, Abomasnow was permanently on stall teams to block rain teams and counter the suspect itself with his stab grass moves and his resistance to surf.

So, yes, your point about the lower tiers is sharable.

 

[Objection]

Subject: Shaymin and Celebi.

Celebi may be OU, but most of the sets seen in OU play are defensive/support sets, which Shaymin can also do with the same stats. Celebi may have access to Stealth Rock and Recover, but Shaymin has the advantage of neutrality to Pursuit and only a single weakness to U-turn.

EDIT:

Another good example would be Machamp VS Hariyama. I won't go into detail here but there are several situations where a Hariyama would do better.

I'm glad you brought this one up because the thing about Hariyama is that his best sets are nothing like the sweeping sets that Machamp runs. Instead, Hariyama is better off using the bulk he has over Machamp to come in on something like Tyranitar or Weavile or, in the case of Thick Fat versions, Heatran, and running bulky offence like Sub Punch. The other alternative is a supporting role using Knock Off and Whirlwind, which Machamp cannot even attempt to imitate.

 

[sbc]

I used a fully UU team in OU a while back (when Garchomp wasn't banned), Scarf Rotom was a great revenge killer although probably inferior now to Rotom-A.

Poliwrath was very useful on the team as well, being able to counter non-EQ Gyarados with HP Electric (LO +1 EQ isn't a 2HKO anyway) as well as switching into Tyranitar, Weavile etc with ease and it also resists STABs of Heatran and Scizor, it's only problem was its ability to threaten things as Brick Break didn't even 2HKO Blissey though Hydro Pump went a long way to deter Hippowdon, Skarmory and co.

 

[Huntofthelion]

Another UU Pokemon coming to mind is roserade, who is one of the most reliable toxic spike user. Certainly some good Pokemon reside in UU and NU and have just fallen because the spot they hold on teams is becoming less needed.

 

[wildfire393]

I'd say it's debatable. Gardevoir uses Trace rather well too, and in general is an excellent supporter with numerous options.

The problem with Gardevoir is that the main use of Trace is to help check Intimidate Pokemon - Flash Fire and Water/Volt Absorb are just an added bonus for Pory2. Gardevoir unfortunately lacks the Physical bulk to take even intimidated attacks from Gyarados and Salamence, making him not really a viable user of Trace.

 

[Lou Cypher]

The problem with Gardevoir is that the main use of Trace is to help check Intimidate Pokemon - Flash Fire and Water/Volt Absorb are just an added bonus for Pory2. Gardevoir unfortunately lacks the Physical bulk to take even intimidated attacks from Gyarados and Salamence, making him not really a viable user of Trace.

When Gardevoir isn't 2HKO'd by a Dragon Dance'd Gyarados's Waterfall by a long shot and returns the favor by one-shotting it with Thunderbolt, then I'd beg to differ. Salamence is a different case, but Porygon2 doesn't like the prospect of it NOT being a Dragon Dancer a lot. Gardevoir is a GREAT counter to Gyarados as I have found out in my many battles using her. (I refuse to call ANY Gardevoir a him >.>)

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

re: curse gastrodon

I usually find that even if I'm going to be using a Cursing Water/Ground, I'd much rather be using Swampert. Sure, Recover is cool, but considering that Cursers hate Status, Rest is preferable most of the time. Gastrodon running Curse also loses 27 points of Attack, 22 points of Defense, and 8 points of Special Defense in exchange for 11 HP (which isn't that big) and Recover, which is inferior to Rest due to the fact that with Recover, you lose to random stuff like WoW and Toxic.

That said, Gastrodon just doesn't bring anything to the party. It can't hit as hard on either side, it can't take hits as well on either side of the spectrum, it can't SR, and it can't Roar, and these are incidentally the four things that make Swampert good. It has no support movepool outside of Toxic, too. It's easy to see why he isn't used more.

 

[adman2]

Subject: Shaymin and Celebi.

Celebi may be OU, but most of the sets seen in OU play are defensive/support sets, which Shaymin can also do with the same stats. Celebi may have access to Stealth Rock and Recover, but Shaymin has the advantage of neutrality to Pursuit and only a single weakness to U-turn.

EDIT:


I'm glad you brought this one up because the thing about Hariyama is that his best sets are nothing like the sweeping sets that Machamp runs. Instead, Hariyama is better off using the bulk he has over Machamp to come in on something like Tyranitar or Weavile or, in the case of Thick Fat versions, Heatran, and running bulky offence like Sub Punch. The other alternative is a supporting role using Knock Off and Whirlwind, which Machamp cannot even attempt to imitate.

I've used Hariyama for a while on Wifi with the standard Impish set, and it makes a decent check for Tyranitar, Gyarados, and physical Salamence with Stone Edge, a Fighting move, and Knock Off. With the standard Impish EVs (76 HP, 180 Attack, 252 Defense), though it does NOT a Heatran counter make. If you're going to use Hariyama to absorb special attacks, EV it a different way, maybe even with a Careful nature. Hariyama can't be an all-purpose defensive Fighting type, though he has his uses.