well, items can simply be made unobtainable, which some are! otherwise you are asking for gamefreak to actually clean up the item index that carries the same clutter since GEN FUCKING FOUR
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
They also didn't technically Dexit abilities either, unless Paldea did.
Did it not? Hail isn’t in the game any more.
Not sure what Hail the move does in Gen 9, or if hail the weather is still coded in the game (probably is, Desolate Land comes up occasionally in the mechanics research thread) but Snowscape is a new move separate from Hail. It's not like Feint Attack or Thunder Punch or Vise Grip where the move's name changed, it's a whole new move with its own ID and everything.
This is actually a really good point, and something I feel Psychic is long overdue for. Psychic is supposed to be a very strong special type, but so far when it comes to actual attacks it lacks a lot of really high BP moves. Zen Headbutt, Psyshock, and Psychic are all in the 90 BP range, and Psychic while good is still more or less just a "good" move akin to Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt, but I feel Psychic is definitely deserving of a 110-120 BP STAB that a lot of Psychic-types can use to hit with raw power akin to Fire Blast, Snow/Hail-induced Blizzard, and whatnot.
Fighting in particular became powerful over the years from its introduction of extremely high BP moves for its Pokemon to use, namely Close Combat which has been a staple STAB for a long time, and we also have stuff like High Jump Kick being buffed to 130 BP as other examples. The closest Psychic has to a super strong STAB is Psychic Terrain-induced Expanding Force, which is extremely deadly on the Pokemon that can use it: look at Armarouge and Indeedee for instance. Those Pokemon manage to be really great offensive Psychic-types because they have such a powerful weapon at their disposal there. Or historically Deoxys with Psycho Boost in Ubers. Those are rare instances of Psychic Pokemon having really good STAB at their disposal.
I feel giving Psychic more powerful STAB options on both sides, but especially the special side, would help them a lot there, especially since most are primarily offensively oriented and want to be wallbreakers/sweepers. It would also be a good way to help Psychic differentiate from Ghost, which has similar offensive interactions, but better defensive properties, but as far as moves is intentionally stripped of particularly powerful ones, instead getting moves like Shadow Ball and Phantom Force which have more utility instead of sheer power. Psychic getting more raw power moves would help differentiate from that and also help Psychic-types capitalize on the more offensively oriented nature of their own type.
I don't agree because the problem with Psychic moves is not power, it's that there are so many amazing Dark and Steel types. Your 120 BP Psychic move is still doing 0% to Kingambit, and that means you are still relying on dual types (which are usually only made worse with Psychic defensively. For instance, Hatterene would probably be a lot better as mono Fairy to resist Dark and Bug, not be weak to Ghost), or coverage which is usually bleh. Focus Blast, anyone?
I think Psychic needs Physical moves more than Special on that particular front of "weakness," simply because the best Physical Psychic moves are frequently around or even slightly weaker than the middle-ground moves of other types. The most commonly distributed one is Zen Headbutt, which takes an accuracy Penalty like it thinks it's a Rock attack while having an 80 BP on the level of Iron Head or Waterfall, which shares the same Flinch Chance (the latter having Wave Crash as a strong STAB distributed upgrade) or Poison Jab with the comparably decent-but-mild regular Poison proc (which goes up to Gunk Shot).
I think the big hurdle is that the ideas I'd attribute to Psychic would also work for Fighting (stuff like mind-rattling or striking nerves in the head), so it'd have to b a decision on GF's part AND particular to the Mons receiving it compared to the more generic nature of Psychic/Psyshock or Zen/Psycho Cut.
Fairy they seem to consciously avoid giving a generally-distributed 100 BP+ move (Moonblast caps at 95 and any other is a Signature or has a drawback like Misty Explosion), so it's probably not MEANT to come across as a hugely powerful type vs the users. This could b Psychic's main point of design distinction instead of "Fairy but less useful" as it's felt since the type's introduction.
I think the big hurdle is that the ideas I'd attribute to Psychic would also work for Fighting (stuff like mind-rattling or striking nerves in the head), so it'd have to b a decision on GF's part AND particular to the Mons receiving it compared to the more generic nature of Psychic/Psyshock or Zen/Psycho Cut.
True to an extent, but on the old "Types aren't designed equal for mons" talk like we had with Bugs, Psychic's niche over Fairy could theoretically be access to those higher BP moves. Gardevoir for example chooses between a 90 BP Moonblast that will have fewer stops (no Immunities and the resistance it has vs Psychic in Fire is less commonly used for such) or a 120 BP STAB that requires more carefully watching for Dark switch-ins. One might help more against offensive teams that crumble more easily to strong neutral output, while the other can break more defensive opponents that have raw bulk but typings with some notable weaknesses (Clodsire and Galarian Slowking for example fear one much more than the other thanks to their Poison sub-type).
Fairy they seem to consciously avoid giving a generally-distributed 100 BP+ move (Moonblast caps at 95 and any other is a Signature or has a drawback like Misty Explosion), so it's probably not MEANT to come across as a hugely powerful type vs the users. This could b Psychic's main point of design distinction instead of "Fairy but less useful" as it's felt since the type's introduction.
If you say that dual types being required is fine, then I just don't agree. Because if you view it through the lens of dualtyping, then Psychic is not a problem. Mons like Tapu Lele show that Psychic can still work with a good dualtype. I just don't think that is how you should view it at all. IMO you should value it by monotypes and dualtypes, not just one.
Sure Grass Type is not some crazy top tier type, but plenty of mono Grass types have been viable even in OU. Off the top of my head is Rillaboom and Tangrowth. Mega Alakazam and Reuniclus are the only two Psychic types I can think of and they're also a bit of an exception. Mega Alakazam has the coveted Focus Blast that a lot of Psychics don't have, and also is just kinda busted stats. Reuniclus was crazy in Gen 5 OU but ever since then has been basically entirely replaced my Clefable, a Fairy Type. Hmmmm.
I don't want Psychic to only be good if it's next to a way better secondary type, or if it has crazy stat distribution. I've seen some claim Dragons are only so good due to stat distribution on average, and I disagree. In older gens especially it was pretty customary for every tier below OU to just try and have its own slice of the limited Dragon type pie, since it's just a good defensive typing, with a lot of key resistances. That's what Psychic lacks. It doesn't have anything it adds to your team defensively, and offensively it's stifled by Dark and Steel types. You have to fix one of those problems.
High BST moves fixes neither. You need to justify running a Pokemon by "what problem does this solve". Psychic types would still not solve any problem, they'd just be in a vacuum strong. In practice, they'd still die and get owned by many Knock Off, U-Turn and be murdered by Kingambit, Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon, etc. etc. etc.
There is a VERY significant reason Tapu Lele wants its Psychic STAB that isn't inherent to the Average Psychic type here. The problem for Psychic is that it's supplanted by dual types that do what it does BETTER, because it doesn't do anything unique from those direct comparisons (see the raw power point I made with the Gardevoir example) nor is it strong enough to compensate when it's going up against them: See Lele in your example running its Psychic STAB despite the offensive problems with Steel BECAUSE it's strong enough to break through the type even resisted. The type shouldn't stop dead into any Steel Type (which the low BP moves cause), but into the type on users meant to take blows.
Problem with that is the whole point of Steel balance Psychic in Gen 2.
the balancing of psychic types in gen2 (which weren't a serious problem to begin with in gen1, i wouldn't even call them the best type) was probably excessive in hindsight, and I have no problem peeling back some of those changes if doing so makes sense
Even then, the Type Chart is a lot more delicate than even I myself thought. The most allowed is up to three changes, or else it’ll cause a domino effect to the point it became too distinct from what we’ve been used to.
18 types is also plentiful in the type chart as-is, so the new type must interact with types that could use a buff or to keep the top-tier types in check like Fairy did to Dragon and Fighting, otherwise they’ll be redundant at best.
18 types is also plentiful in the type chart as-is, so the new type must interact with types that could use a buff or to keep the top-tier types in check like Fairy did to Dragon and Fighting, otherwise they’ll be redundant at best.
very unpopular, but i wouldn't mind if they did big changes to the type table that would take time to get used to, as long as a) it improved the competitiveness and b) the decisions made sense with regards to flavour/lore. of course, a) is very hard to be sure of without extensive testing, so i get that this hasn't and won't ever be done, but i like the thought.
imo i would rather some of the better types get nerfed a bit than buffing the worse ones. it makes the game more interesting when types have clearly defined roles like how ice is great offensively and awful defensively. i like the idea of a type like water being good at offense and defense but in practice its like, one of the best defensive types while also being so good offensively that spamming water moves is a playstyle. it feels like a big failure in game design since the type is just kinda good at everything.
It was a bad idea. You don't have to commit to the bit for 30 years.
No it wasn’t. Back in RBY, Psychic only resisted itself and was only weak to Bug, which was only the pathetically weak Twineedle at 15 BP. It was more broken than Dragon in Gens 4 to 5. Dark and Steel existing also gave Fighting types more useful since Psychic’s dominance made them useless in Gen 1. Also worth noting that Dragon/Psychic were originally designed to be “boss” types, which is why they were intentionally designed to be better than the other types. It’s also the motive for why so many Legendary Pokémon ended with Psychic and Dragon types; GF have officially stated why Lugia was Psychic as opposed to water is because they wanted to create a stronger “impression”. Similar logic was applied to Latios/Latias as well: They were debating between Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Psychic but ultimately decided Dragon/Psychic for that stronger impression- levitate was given to make up for the fact that they weren’t flying types but were still “ flying “.
Twineedle was always power 25.
Pin Missile was 15 in gen 1 Twineedle was not.
Okay? None of this changes the fact that Dark Type alone is an extremely strong counter to Psychic. The real answer was to literally just know that you have three types that are super effective against Psychic. Dark Types, make Bug a real type, give Ghost types real moves. But then oh yeah, all three of them are resisted by Steel also.
Steel was never the solution to type balance it literally only made things worse lol. Psychic did not go from "busted -> good", it literally became hot garbo. Especially when it often just led to Pursuit trapping, or not having a secondary type that helps it out.
The Latis before Fairy Type rarely ran Psychic moves not just because other coverage was better, but because Psychic stab is bad. Not move wise (another weird claim from this thread), but because it is resisted by a lot. Latios especially was actually only really not banned because of its Psychic typing, frankly. Besides for resisting Sacred Sword from Keldeo, it only made Pursuit Tyranitar a looming threat in Gen 5 and any U-Turn on it is doing over half.
Game Freak not knowing what the type had become was not proof they made the right decision.
Actually it was 14 BP. And it only had 85% accuracy... Gen 1 move design can be bizarre at times.
Going by Gen 5 alone, it is resisted by Steel which is the same with Dragon making it a point towards coverage, Dark which is only really relevant for Tyranitar as Hydreigon is Dragon type and Weavile is an Ice type, and Psychic where Gen 5 OU has 9 properly in the tier and another 9 with some degree of viability. It does look from that that coverage is more likely than Psychic being too weak. Also it kinda weakens your argument a bit when one of the reasons you say a type is so weak is due to the fact a sizable portion of the tier has it.
Also there are three pure psychic types in Gen 5 OU, and you left out Espeon. Granted, I think that it's a Electrivire situation after they dealt with Baton Pass, but it's still there.
First of all, Tyranitar in Gens 3, 4 and 5 may be one of the best Pokemon of all-time. Put more respect on my goat's fucking name. Secondly, Psychic types that used Psychic moves were because they were monotype (like Alakazam).
Psychic-Types in Gen 5 OU are essentially like this:
Alakazam and Reuniclus derive their viability primarily from their ability, which is really controversial. Alakazam being the offensive one, Reuniclus being a great wall. Both get their viability from ignoring hazards, and both are majorly weakened by Pursuit. Alakazam having to run Focus Blast makes it way less consistent, and many have tried to get around that to varying success (usually little).
Latios basically ignores the Psychic STAB with Draco and Surf as primary attacking moves. Using Psychic likely just gets it killed as Tyranitar switches in already to Pursuit it, of which a lot of Latios as is get a lot of their value from chunking Tyranitar for the Rain team it's on to try and get the kill back, or hope Latios finishes it. Latios. The Psychic Type only adds one meaningful thing defensively, which is making it a good answer to Keldeo when things get dire, but the teams it's on are usually packing something like Tentacruel anyways.
Celebi was popular until it wasn't If the generation continued, it'd almost certainly not be in OU. Celebi had 6 total appearances in the course of SPL XIV Gen 5 OU, which is not that good.
Jirachi derives its value from being Jirachi, a Steel-Type which means it resists all of Psychic's weaknesses. Which is not good balance, either. Jirachi also does not use Psychic moves because it's a pretty bad typing, and instead its role is that of a Variety Monkey, packing utilities an resisting Latios (not Latios's Psychic, because that doesn't exist, for clarity!). Even when Jirachi uses a Calm Mind set, it basically never packs a Psychic move, instead sporting better coverage such as BoltBeam. Psychic only helps it quad resists Psychic (which who cares), be neutral to Ghost and Dark instead of resisting it, and be neutral to Fighting which is useful, but overall even at the best dualtype possible for Psychic in Gen 5, it's really not doing that much for its partner type.
Lastly, Starmie, and you're not gonna guess it: It doesn't use Psychic. This time though I will say Starmie being a Psychic type is valuable defensively, more than Latios because Starmie sets can be more utility focused which is better than still unrecoverably losing like 40% with rocks to a Keldeo. That is something you generally want to avoid, Latios is an emergency check. Starmie has sets that are pretty offensive still, don't get me wrong, but it's also a much more versatile mon that can get free turns versus other rain. Outside of that though, yeah, Psychic is just whatever.
Overall I'd say Gen 5 getting so many Psychic types is primarily due to Keldeo but also in general just 2 of them having good stats and Magic Bounce.
And I don't know why it's so hard to understand, but I want Psychic Type to be a good type in a vacuum. Not just "if it has this ability, and this great stat spread, and if it has a good dual type." I want it to be a type that has more defensive or offensive utility meaning that you actually want to proactively fit one onto your team, rather than it more being a drawback to an otherwise amazing Pokemon. Because in most gens, that is what Psychic is: A detriment to the Pokemon it's on. Especially due to Pursuit, but even now it's hard to get anything going with a Psychic type before Ghost Types (Which are literally better offensively and defensively, both sharing the trait of being a special type that generally can hit almost anything neutrally besides the key types, but Ghost is neutral against Steel), Knock Off, U-Turn, etc.
This isn't too much to ask as many tiers have this, especially when you look at lower tiers. If you look at images of the top Pokemon in every tier, you will always see certain traits and qualities in Pokemon (such as types) get to the top. I don't need Psychics to be a top 5 type or something, but I want it to have an actual purpose besides just being there to be owned by the several types that own it.
in a vacuum, types shouldn't be inherently better or worse, which is why steel warps so much of these interactions - it's obviously the best type defensively by sheer number of resistances, which improves the types that hit it for SE or even neutral damage, which creates its own ripple effects on the other types.
psychic hitting steel neutrally not only helps it offensively, but because of the above, it also becomes a better defensive type because it resists itself and that would be worth more without steel doing that job so competently.
psychic hitting steel neutrally not only helps it offensively, but because of the above, it also becomes a better defensive type because it resists itself and that would be worth more without steel doing that job so competently.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
On the one hand, I do agree, Psychic honestly needs more buffs in general. But I'd hesitate to buff the type itself because of the potential for things that could change in unexpected ways. For example Tapu Lele was really hard hitting with its psychic terrain boosted psychics, and removing it's counters in Steel types would open it to sweep tiers even easier, similarly with Dusk Mane being a really great defensive wall doesn't need more buffs.
Hence the suggestion on making better and more unique moves to help buff the type offensively, like a 110-120 bp move or a freeze dry clone, and general changes to move distribution such as making U-turn not on everything under the sun to help it defensively, feels like a better option that's easier to balance. Quite honestly even a change of making U-turns distribution much smaller to like only be on bug types and bug like mons would help the type far more.
Hence the suggestion on making better and more unique moves to help buff the type offensively, like a 110-120 bp move or a freeze dry clone, and general changes to move distribution such as making U-turn not on everything under the sun to help it defensively, feels like a better option that's easier to balance. Quite honestly even a change of making U-turns distribution much smaller to like only be on bug types and bug like mons would help the type far more.