Duskbros and Ho-Bros, we are so back.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v3 - DLC 1 Edition
- Thread starter Fc
- Start date
- Status
Duskbros and Ho-Bros, we are so back.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
This is probably the one time I am so fucking excited to see Ho oh because Flutter Mane and Zacian Crowned is making me lose my fucking mind. I don't even care about what else the Indigo Disk brings. I just want Ho oh back
Although, I am seriously wondering if Necrozma will be worth much because Xerneas isn't around to bully. I guess being another pokemon that shits on Zacian helps
I am really hoping they introduce a dragon type close combat simply to complete the trinity of 120 base damage moves for Koraidon. I don't even care if it becomes too strong lol
I might have mentioned this but I could see Koraidon/Miraidon stocks going up even more in the wake of this. Ho-oh benefits massively from Koraidon's Sun while checking the mentioned Fairies that the Bikes hate running into, but faces an OHKO from a boosted Koraidon's Dragon STAB while failing to OHKO a Tera'd one in return while Miraidon resists its Dual STAB and OHKOs with Electro Drift or 2HKOs with Specs Draco. Both dragons have ways to partner with it without being significantly encumbered in the match-up themselves.
Miraidon in particular is a Special Breaker/Sweeper that doesn't get stopped by Ho-oh as a common Offensive SpD option we had in the past and the Double Dance set can even set up on it if it doesn't carry Earthquake, able to switch-in and eat 2-3 hits to grab 2 boosts or threatening a 2HKO with Parabolic. Turning what would otherwise be the tier's best Specially Tanky option not only into an entry point but set-up fodder is going to do wonders for this thing, while Ho-oh's Physical Breaking and targets checked does it massive favors as a teammate.
I hope you’re all ready for Revival Blessing Ho-oh. I dunno if it’ll even run it commonly or anything, but it’s always gonna be in the back of your mind facing it.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Yeah, I feel like for Koraidon, it's scarf sets are gonna suffer because two of the shit it runs does nothing to Ho oh and outrage is a dangerous option to recklessly use. Gamefuck just give us glaive rush for all dragon types already for fuck sake. Although, I do feel like we'll have a situation similar to natdex ubers where scarf sets may be checked, Koraidon just switches gears, as in literally switch gears because it's a fucking motorbike, and scale shots its way through Ho oh and rips apart the entire tier, ah lah SS OU Garchomp
For Miraidon, I think it will massively benefit because there isn't a single pokemon that can withstand its stab combination. Even Iron Treads doesn't want to fuck with Miraidon for too long, and due to the lack of proper ground types aside from Ting Lu thus far, I feel like Koraidon and Miraidon will switch gears. Miraidon goes scarf and becomes the speed control while Koraidon goes sd and rips everything apart. With Necrozma's return, I feel like extreme killer will fall off, which means the double dance sets you mentioned really goes to town. I'm already thinking an electric seed variant to ensure it doesn't die to a random Ho oh earthquake
Koraidon shakes in fear at the arrival of Ho-Oh.
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 364-432 (87.7 - 104%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
nvm jk
+2 252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 364-432 (87.7 - 104%) -- approx. 18.8% chance to OHKO
nvm jk
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
How do you guys think the meta will change with the returning legendaries? My thoughts are:
Is probably the most anticipated legendary to return and for good reason. It almost completely shuts down Zacian, Flutter Mane, Arceus Fairy, Arceus Ground, while also making Koraidon think twice about clicking close combat or low kick and flare blitz. I also think it will make scarf Koraidon really bad because outrage sucks so much balls. At the very least, it will give the tier a bit more defensive stability with how offensive the tier is right now
Personally, I welcome the return of this mon and after thinking about it after the trailer, I’m really looking forward to its return. Anything that shits on fairy types is welcome because fairy is the is broken type ever made and you cannot convince me otherwise
For its role, there’s really no Xernease to bully right now so I think this will be physically defensive mon. Combined with Ho oh, they will either completely shut down Zacian or make it the biggest tera hog imaginable. Shut down because without tera, the only way Zacian will instantly kill Ho oh is with wild charge while Necrozma can kill Zacian faster than Zacian can kill Necrozma. However, I’m not too sure how Necrozma would fare against Flutter Mane because its life orb shadow balls can two shot full spdef Necrozma. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see. As for current expectations, I personally think that we’re gonna get an unholy trinity for balance teams this gen just like last gen. Last gen, it was Yveltal, Necrozma, and Eternatus. This gen, I think it would be Ho oh, Necrozma, and either Clodsire or Eternatus, because those are the only two who can handle Kyogre and Flutter Mane
After thinking about it more, I think SV might actually hint Unova remakes because both Zekrom and Reshiram benefit directly from Koraidon and Miraidon to boost their stabs to crazy levels. Conspiracy theories aside, I think Zekrom will be a powerful sweeper. Assuming it still keeps scale shot like in last gen, Zekrom can use a set of dragon dance with scale shot as its dragon stab. If it keeps hone claws, which I don’t think it will, it might even go with hone claws over dragon dance so that bolt strike and scale shot don’t turn into bolt miss and scale miss
Other than a sweeper set, I don’t think Zekrom will be worth anything at all. A choice band set with Miraidon support might be devastating but that would depend on the fate of the ground types when the DLC drops. As for tera, flying is the most obvious because you just setup all over the likes of Groudon or Landorus, but maybe fairy to prevent revenge killing from Koraidon. Tera is still too much for me to think about rn
Oh, and it also destroys stall so I love this mon already. Fuck stall
This one, I’m not too sure about. Lunala does seem like a really strong attacker on paper but it’s way too slow. Tera might circumvent that but it’s still too much for me to think rn. Defensive sets might be somewhat fine but with the number of u turn from Koraidon and Miraidon, shadow shield won’t be worth much
While I think this might still be shit, I am actually quite curious to see how this teams up with Koraidon. Sun boosted fusion flare sounds kinda scary not to mention it can destroy grounds and dragons with ice beam or freeze dry. However, I’m not sold on this yet and it’ll probably suck since it’s too slow and it wants boots with how removing hazard is next to impossible
Yeah, I think they’ll all suck. Kyurem is the only one that might be worth something given it can go scale shot and icicle spear with loaded dice but being weak to Necrozma really sucks
Reshiram is Reshiram and if you really wanna use a special attack, White Kyurem exists. Lugia is meh, and will probably end up in Ubers UU
I personally think scarf sets will be worse. Without Xerneas to bully, chances are, Necrozma will go full physically defensive and if it uses rocky helmet, yeah, Koraidon dies just as fast as Necrozma would. However, I think Koraidon can just switch gears. It’s literally a fucking motorbike. It’ll just switch gears from scarf to sd and pry apart the entire tier. None of Ho oh or Necrozma or Lunala can withstand sd Koraidon
I think scale shot sets will be the most devastating because with Ho oh around, flame charge as its boosting option might be severely limited because we still don’t have a dragon type close combat. It might become more predictable than it already is but I don’t think that’ll really stop Koraidon
With Necrozma returning, if it runs specially defensive sets, it is to slow down Miraidon. I cannot see any reason for Necrozma to be specially defensive without Xerneas in the tier. I don’t think Necrozma would want to take on Miraidon one on one but at the very least, its steel typing will make Miraidon think thrice before clicking draco meteor. Necrozma might even take the role of the mandatory fairy type to tank draco meteors because unlike Zacian, Necrozma has recovery, hopefully
Depending on the fate of the ground types, Miraidon might end up ripping apart the tier with its life orb sets or be a sweeper with its agility calm mind sets, this time using electric seed. Specs will probably still be good but it would depend on the fate of the ground types. If Ting Lu and Clodsire fall off, specs Miraidon will go to town because even other dragons aside from itself don’t want to eat specs electro drift
Boots pivot set will probably be okay, nothing special about it. Either way, I think Miraidon will have more options than Koraidon. Or maybe not, Koraidon can probably take a cog from Miraidon’s gears and use a boots pivot or life orb set itself. Koraidon’s damage output is potentially higher due to having three stabs thanks to its ability and three 120 base damage moves, assuming you wanna get frisky with outrage
Either way, I think Koraidon will still be the best mon, especially sd sets which would be like getting checked in Chess, where it demands a response, most likely tera, while Miraidon will be a close second
As I said earlier, Zacian would either be knocked down several pegs or be the ultimate tera hog. Without wild charge, Ho oh completely hard counters it and Necrozma doesn’t do it any favors either. By being a tera hog, it might be able to go tera electric or tera water, go for an sd, and kill both Necrozma and Ho oh, and just about anything really. However, I think it might struggle if it can’t use its ability boost as it sds because Necrozma is way too tanky
I think this will be the strongest Arceus form by far. Calm mind will be meh but dragon dance will really be a massive threat. It’ll just go stone miss and earthquake and it rips apart both Ho oh and Necrozma. With Necrozma’s ability, I don’t think it’ll die to a +1 earthquake but it doesn’t matter this is Arceus. It can simply dragon dance again and kill Necrozma. It may not even have to give up taunt because edgequake is really all it needs, unless Giratina decides to be a pain that is
I think and hope this will fall off, hard. With Necrozma and Ho oh’s return, fairy Arceus will really be strapped for moves. If it goes earth power, it might still lose to Necrozma and it gets walled by Ho oh. If it gets frisky with stone edge, it gets walled by Necrozma, and I don’t think there’s any way it’ll go judgment, stone edge, and earth power, in one set
I think and hope that extreme killer falls off. It does seem like it if Necrozma is physically defensive but then again, this is Arceus. It doesn’t go down easy. If anything, it might have to give up taunt so it can earthquake Necrozma to death because shadow claw doesn’t two shot without life orb. But then again, that might not be too much of a sacrifice, depending on Skeledirge’s fate
I’ve also run into some life orb earthquake Arceus because Zacian is a pain in the ass. Depending on Necrozma’s hp, it might just die to +2 earthquake
At first, I thought this would be completely shut down by Ho oh. Then I realized this thing get sfucking power gem. What? What the fuck is this pokemon? Why the fuck does it get all three of mystical fire, psyshock, and power gem, in addition to shadow ball and moonblast? Seriously, someone at Gamefreak must really be a Misdraevus simp
Despite that, I think it will be forced to run power gem at all times. If it doesn’t, there’s just no way in the seven hells it gets past Ho oh. This doesn’t seem much of a sacrifice either because ghost and fairy is a fucking ridiculous typing not to mention it can run as fast as the bikes. Honestly, fuck this mon. I was hoping it would become obsolete in the DLC but turns out, it might still remain as Fucker Mane
As much as I love this mon, there might be a strong chance it will fall off. Being weak to Necrozma is really bad. I imagine this will be like Zacian where it’ll be a massive tera hog. Not to mention that this time, it really cannot get away with just firing away glacial lances or high horsepowers because of Necrozma. It really needs to swords dance up. Depending on the hazard metagame and if whether or not Necrozma uses boots, it could cause problems
Against hyper offense though, I think this will still be a massive threat. Trick room and just smashing stuff with a moxie ability can get out of hand
One last thing, everything I’ve said here is not taking into account Terapagos and the 19th tera type because we know next to nothing about it, and it’s mostly focused on balance teams because we’re finally getting some defensive backbones. I think hyper offense will still be really strong but at least it won’t be an all out slugfest like when you castle on opposite sides in Chess. Whatever the case, I’m actually excited to see how the meta will change when we get these defensive backbones
Is probably the most anticipated legendary to return and for good reason. It almost completely shuts down Zacian, Flutter Mane, Arceus Fairy, Arceus Ground, while also making Koraidon think twice about clicking close combat or low kick and flare blitz. I also think it will make scarf Koraidon really bad because outrage sucks so much balls. At the very least, it will give the tier a bit more defensive stability with how offensive the tier is right now
Personally, I welcome the return of this mon and after thinking about it after the trailer, I’m really looking forward to its return. Anything that shits on fairy types is welcome because fairy is the is broken type ever made and you cannot convince me otherwise
For its role, there’s really no Xernease to bully right now so I think this will be physically defensive mon. Combined with Ho oh, they will either completely shut down Zacian or make it the biggest tera hog imaginable. Shut down because without tera, the only way Zacian will instantly kill Ho oh is with wild charge while Necrozma can kill Zacian faster than Zacian can kill Necrozma. However, I’m not too sure how Necrozma would fare against Flutter Mane because its life orb shadow balls can two shot full spdef Necrozma. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see. As for current expectations, I personally think that we’re gonna get an unholy trinity for balance teams this gen just like last gen. Last gen, it was Yveltal, Necrozma, and Eternatus. This gen, I think it would be Ho oh, Necrozma, and either Clodsire or Eternatus, because those are the only two who can handle Kyogre and Flutter Mane
After thinking about it more, I think SV might actually hint Unova remakes because both Zekrom and Reshiram benefit directly from Koraidon and Miraidon to boost their stabs to crazy levels. Conspiracy theories aside, I think Zekrom will be a powerful sweeper. Assuming it still keeps scale shot like in last gen, Zekrom can use a set of dragon dance with scale shot as its dragon stab. If it keeps hone claws, which I don’t think it will, it might even go with hone claws over dragon dance so that bolt strike and scale shot don’t turn into bolt miss and scale miss
Other than a sweeper set, I don’t think Zekrom will be worth anything at all. A choice band set with Miraidon support might be devastating but that would depend on the fate of the ground types when the DLC drops. As for tera, flying is the most obvious because you just setup all over the likes of Groudon or Landorus, but maybe fairy to prevent revenge killing from Koraidon. Tera is still too much for me to think about rn
Oh, and it also destroys stall so I love this mon already. Fuck stall
This one, I’m not too sure about. Lunala does seem like a really strong attacker on paper but it’s way too slow. Tera might circumvent that but it’s still too much for me to think rn. Defensive sets might be somewhat fine but with the number of u turn from Koraidon and Miraidon, shadow shield won’t be worth much
While I think this might still be shit, I am actually quite curious to see how this teams up with Koraidon. Sun boosted fusion flare sounds kinda scary not to mention it can destroy grounds and dragons with ice beam or freeze dry. However, I’m not sold on this yet and it’ll probably suck since it’s too slow and it wants boots with how removing hazard is next to impossible
Yeah, I think they’ll all suck. Kyurem is the only one that might be worth something given it can go scale shot and icicle spear with loaded dice but being weak to Necrozma really sucks
Reshiram is Reshiram and if you really wanna use a special attack, White Kyurem exists. Lugia is meh, and will probably end up in Ubers UU
I personally think scarf sets will be worse. Without Xerneas to bully, chances are, Necrozma will go full physically defensive and if it uses rocky helmet, yeah, Koraidon dies just as fast as Necrozma would. However, I think Koraidon can just switch gears. It’s literally a fucking motorbike. It’ll just switch gears from scarf to sd and pry apart the entire tier. None of Ho oh or Necrozma or Lunala can withstand sd Koraidon
I think scale shot sets will be the most devastating because with Ho oh around, flame charge as its boosting option might be severely limited because we still don’t have a dragon type close combat. It might become more predictable than it already is but I don’t think that’ll really stop Koraidon
With Necrozma returning, if it runs specially defensive sets, it is to slow down Miraidon. I cannot see any reason for Necrozma to be specially defensive without Xerneas in the tier. I don’t think Necrozma would want to take on Miraidon one on one but at the very least, its steel typing will make Miraidon think thrice before clicking draco meteor. Necrozma might even take the role of the mandatory fairy type to tank draco meteors because unlike Zacian, Necrozma has recovery, hopefully
Depending on the fate of the ground types, Miraidon might end up ripping apart the tier with its life orb sets or be a sweeper with its agility calm mind sets, this time using electric seed. Specs will probably still be good but it would depend on the fate of the ground types. If Ting Lu and Clodsire fall off, specs Miraidon will go to town because even other dragons aside from itself don’t want to eat specs electro drift
Boots pivot set will probably be okay, nothing special about it. Either way, I think Miraidon will have more options than Koraidon. Or maybe not, Koraidon can probably take a cog from Miraidon’s gears and use a boots pivot or life orb set itself. Koraidon’s damage output is potentially higher due to having three stabs thanks to its ability and three 120 base damage moves, assuming you wanna get frisky with outrage
Either way, I think Koraidon will still be the best mon, especially sd sets which would be like getting checked in Chess, where it demands a response, most likely tera, while Miraidon will be a close second
As I said earlier, Zacian would either be knocked down several pegs or be the ultimate tera hog. Without wild charge, Ho oh completely hard counters it and Necrozma doesn’t do it any favors either. By being a tera hog, it might be able to go tera electric or tera water, go for an sd, and kill both Necrozma and Ho oh, and just about anything really. However, I think it might struggle if it can’t use its ability boost as it sds because Necrozma is way too tanky
I think this will be the strongest Arceus form by far. Calm mind will be meh but dragon dance will really be a massive threat. It’ll just go stone miss and earthquake and it rips apart both Ho oh and Necrozma. With Necrozma’s ability, I don’t think it’ll die to a +1 earthquake but it doesn’t matter this is Arceus. It can simply dragon dance again and kill Necrozma. It may not even have to give up taunt because edgequake is really all it needs, unless Giratina decides to be a pain that is
I think and hope this will fall off, hard. With Necrozma and Ho oh’s return, fairy Arceus will really be strapped for moves. If it goes earth power, it might still lose to Necrozma and it gets walled by Ho oh. If it gets frisky with stone edge, it gets walled by Necrozma, and I don’t think there’s any way it’ll go judgment, stone edge, and earth power, in one set
I think and hope that extreme killer falls off. It does seem like it if Necrozma is physically defensive but then again, this is Arceus. It doesn’t go down easy. If anything, it might have to give up taunt so it can earthquake Necrozma to death because shadow claw doesn’t two shot without life orb. But then again, that might not be too much of a sacrifice, depending on Skeledirge’s fate
I’ve also run into some life orb earthquake Arceus because Zacian is a pain in the ass. Depending on Necrozma’s hp, it might just die to +2 earthquake
At first, I thought this would be completely shut down by Ho oh. Then I realized this thing get sfucking power gem. What? What the fuck is this pokemon? Why the fuck does it get all three of mystical fire, psyshock, and power gem, in addition to shadow ball and moonblast? Seriously, someone at Gamefreak must really be a Misdraevus simp
Despite that, I think it will be forced to run power gem at all times. If it doesn’t, there’s just no way in the seven hells it gets past Ho oh. This doesn’t seem much of a sacrifice either because ghost and fairy is a fucking ridiculous typing not to mention it can run as fast as the bikes. Honestly, fuck this mon. I was hoping it would become obsolete in the DLC but turns out, it might still remain as Fucker Mane
As much as I love this mon, there might be a strong chance it will fall off. Being weak to Necrozma is really bad. I imagine this will be like Zacian where it’ll be a massive tera hog. Not to mention that this time, it really cannot get away with just firing away glacial lances or high horsepowers because of Necrozma. It really needs to swords dance up. Depending on the hazard metagame and if whether or not Necrozma uses boots, it could cause problems
Against hyper offense though, I think this will still be a massive threat. Trick room and just smashing stuff with a moxie ability can get out of hand
One last thing, everything I’ve said here is not taking into account Terapagos and the 19th tera type because we know next to nothing about it, and it’s mostly focused on balance teams because we’re finally getting some defensive backbones. I think hyper offense will still be really strong but at least it won’t be an all out slugfest like when you castle on opposite sides in Chess. Whatever the case, I’m actually excited to see how the meta will change when we get these defensive backbones
Zacian-C is the reason I put ditto on literally every team I build. It has the single dumbest interaction in the game with the way it does stuff with intrepid sword.
On a different note, I am a noted believer in OTR Calyrex-Ice, but could someone actually good at the game explain to me why it's so good? Like I know it's good, I've won games with it, but I don't know exactly why other than it's bulky and Trick Room fucks with fast threats.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
If by OTR you mean offensive trick room, you literally just said it yourself. The tier is filled with fast attackers that are on a slugfest. Calyrex has the bulk to take a hit, tera if necessary, and completely turn the tables. In fact, it is a sticky web team's worst nightmare because if it sets up in front of Zacian, it will probably single handedly destroy sticky web team. Also, ice is such a strong stab because the only one that naturally resists it that isn't hot garbage is Kyogre. Zacian also counts but it dies to high horsepower. In fact, you'll even find that often times, the best check to Calyrex is literally itself. It just becomes which one kills the other first
In my experience, the only teamstyle that doesn't instantly fold to a well timed caly-ice is hard stall because of donbozo. I assume that style isn't very good atm but I have lost games to it because I got off on the wrong foot
+1 252 Atk Tera Electric Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 183-216 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yeah, I think it'll suck. Kyurem might be worth something given it can go scale shot and icicle spear with loaded dice but being weak to Necrozma really sucks
Nah man, this could actually be pretty cool (yeah i'm so funny) if used correctly, assuming it keeps ddance ofc, otherwise it's an unmon. Unlike Zekrom, this thing can plow through Gliscor, Groudon, and Groundceus. It's also a bit faster and MUCH stronger than Zek which could make a difference.
Last edited:
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
The keyword being "could" because Kyurem's an ice type which means it dies to Necrozma's stab. If Kyurem does get used, it'll probably be a tera hog like Zacian not to mention you have to tera as soon as you can because if it's using loaded dice, it's not using boots which means hazards kill it which gets worse because Necrozma gets stealth rock
It would really depend on how common the ground types are when the dust settles
Actually Hitoshi Ariga, the designer for Flutter Mane, his favorite Pokémon is Misdreavus, but according to James Turner, designers don’t choose the moves and stats of Pokémon, so Flutter Mane’s movepool is probably based on Mismagius/Misdreavus, both of which have really good Moves, only held back by stats.
Fuck it I'll do this for ubers too, but it'll be a top 5.
5.
I will figure out how to use you correctly one day but as for now you're just the most viable answer for when I want to not lose to scarf kyogre but also don't want to use Koraidon4.
specs is S T R O N K3.
At worst, this is a sack into something ditto kills back, at best, this wins the game by being unkillable.2.
I AM A TRUE BELIEVER. ALL HAIL OFFENSIVE TRICK ROOM (don't fucking run dedicated trick room)1.
If you're running zacian-c but not a water type or skeledirge, congratulations on losing the game on the spot. Intrepid Sword going to +2, +3, or +4 (I've gone to +5 once but that's an obvious outlier) with a scarfed zacian speed tier is fucking incredible. Genuinely a B- pokemon at worst it's also just an incredible revenge killer in general but the interaction with Zacian-C is why it's my top 1 pokemon in ubers for DLC1It appears Ho-Oh lost Defog, Toxic and Thunder Wave. That means Giratina-O will remain the premier defogger of the tier
Attachments
hooh apparently lost roost too but it kept recover at least. losing twave is big tho, defog is like whatever
I'd much rather use ho-oh to defog on offense because it has u-turn. This sucks, game freak has a hazard fetish this gen I guess
it does not have turn
I swear to god I remember it having u-turn what the fuck. This is the second time I've gaslit myself into thinking a pokemon has a move that it never had
At least it gained access to Body Slam this time around, which is decent chip and the chance to parahax. We'll see how much opportunity cost holds it back.
hooh wont use body slam.
Zekrom has Stealth Rock now. Idk if it'd ever use it, especially now that it lost Roost, just thought I'd mention it. The loss of Roost and Toxic is really bad, though, and the viability of its more defensive sets is pretty much dead.
- Status