Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v3 - DLC 1 Edition

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Thread Guidelines

- Discussion should only be focused around SV Ubers and its metagame. No national dex stuff.
- Discussion should only be focused around what is currently (or recently announced will be) available! Theorymon on the upcoming DLC are a no go in here until it arrives.
- Follow the rules, and keep things peaceful.
- Do not post one liners, try to make each post meaningful.
- Questions go here.
- Other generations discussion goes here.

Notable Returning Pokemon:


New Fully Evolved Pokemon:
Dipplin Fezandipiti Munkidori Ogerpon Okidogi Sinistcha Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

Stats and Abilities

Pokemon​	HP​	Atk​	Def​	SpA​	SpD​	Spe​	BST​
Dipplin​	80​	80​	110​	95​	80​	40​	485​
Fezandipiti​	88​	91​	82​	70​	125​	99​	555​
Munkidori​	88​	75​	66​	130​	90​	106​	555​
Ogerpon​	80​	120​	84​	60​	96​	110​	550​
Okidogi​	88​	128​	115​	58​	86​	80​	555​
Sinistcha​	71​	60​	106​	121​	80​	70​	508​
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon​	113​	70​	120​	135​	65​	52​	555​

New Abilities:
Toxic Chain: 30% badly poison chance when attacking - Fezandipiti, Munkidori, Okidogi
Supersweet Syrup: Lowers evasion 1 stage on switchin - Dipplin
Hospitatlity: Restores 1/4 of ally's HP on switchin - Sinistcha
Mind's Eye: Fighting and Normal moves hit ghosts, ignores evasion and cannot have accuracy lowered - Ursaluna-Bloodmoon

Notable Movepool Changes:
Huge shoutout to TheDragonTexasWarrior2001 for this list
Existing Pokemon
Alomomola: + Scald, + Flip Turn
Baxcalibur: + Scale Shot
Calyrex-Ice: + High Horsepower
Dialga: + Roar
Garchomp: + Scale Shot
Giratina: + Poltergeist
Groudon: + Roar, + Heat Crash
Koraidon: + Scale Shot
Rayquaza: + Scale Shot
Tyranitar: + Knock Off
Walking Wake: + Scald, + Flip Turn, + Knock Off
Weavile: +Knock Off
-------------------------------
Returning Pokemon
Clefable: - Aromatherapy, - Heal Bell, - Soft Boiled, - Teleport, - Toxic
Gliscor: +Spikes, + Toxic, + Toxic Spikes, -Roost

 

[cyrtie]

Ever since I acquired the minecraft username ”Okidogi” I have been wondering how good it would be especially in my favourite tier, ubers. Does anyone here see anything that it could do here or is it too weak and frail? The most notable returning mon is probably shaymin sky since it is better than darkrai and flinch action alongside a strong grass move does have it’s uses

 

[ox04]

Okidogi is probably not going to be used in Ubers not because it's too frail, but because it's too slow and doesn't offer enough in return. If you want to use it it's probably going to end up in RU or something.

 

[bdt2002]

Going forward I can actually see Alomamola of all things being really solid in this meta as a bulky pivot with passable to decent matchups against physical attackers. For as long Miraidon remains in the tier, Alomamola’s consistency may be a bit limited, but having access to Scald + Flip Turn with Regenerator could make for a valuable niche as extra assistance against things like Ting-Lu and physical Arceus variants to name a few. Unlike other Waters, I wouldn’t expect Alomamola to be much of a staple on rain teams, though, as outside of maybe passing Wishes to Kyogre and Swift Swim sweepers, Alomamola generally doesn’t add much to the defensive synergy required for rain teams to overcome bad matchups on account of Alomamola’s own passive nature.

I also want to give a brief mention to Scale Shot Koraidon real fast while I’m still here- on paper, this looks very menacing to deal with, and while I’d expect some Sword Dance variants to try and experiment with the move in early Teal Mask Ubers, it remains to be seen how much of a niché Scale Shot will have when the Flame Charge + Swords Dance variant already exists. I would imagine its best role would actually be as a check to other Scale Shot users such as Baxcalibur and Rayquaza, with either the Flame Charge + Swords Dance or Choice Band/Scarf sets performing better on average against the rest of the meta.

 

[corvere]

one or more tera fairy mons per team feel necessary, as scale shot koraidon is (maybe) a bit too strong; usually bulky waters like alomomola, pex, even kyogre can accomplish this rather nicely. other pokemon that can run tera fairy are landorus-t and great tusk. ive found more success on checking this with tera fairy pokemon + priority; both ekiller and chienpao work best, but i reckon scizor can work too.

ribombee webs is nice, its getting spammed for a reason. very hard to win against it if the webs user doesnt make alot of mistakes. to battle webs ive been using substitute zac. it does its job. speaking of webs, both rayquaza and baxcalibur are nice abusers with scale shot. baxcalibur in particular feels really nice as it surprisingly has a defensive niche thanks to its typing that lets it somewhat switch into cm ogre; its also similarly strong to koraidon, meaning a +2 scale shot will hurt everything thats not immune. its nice.

 

[bdt2002]

I played some of my first games in DLC 1 Ubers last night experimenting with a Scale Shot Baxcalibur team, and I’ve already come to a bit of a startling conclusion. On its own, Baxcalibur is far from problematic and does suffer from Speed issues in a meta dominated by the box art legendaries. The Loaded Dice variant in particular also can’t hold Heavy-Duty Boots, and it seems to be stuffed pretty hard by most common Skeledirge variants. The real problem is when you pair this thing with Screens, particularly from Grimmsnarl.

If I can figure out how to actually work PokéPastes on mobile I’ll try adding a team link to this post later, but for now I want to address the elephant in the room. Light Clay needs to go. Like, now. It’s comically easy to set up your win conditions behind team support like Grimmsnarl and Ninetales-Alola so already frustrating Pokémon like Miraidon, Zacian-Crowned, and DD/SD (or Calm Mind) Arceus can go absolutely crazy. DLC 1 is still very much young and chaotic, but it seems unreasonable for players to have to over-account for Screens Offense when there’s already other problems that need addressed with limited team slots and inadequate counterplay available.

These are just the immediately obvious examples of why Light Clay is busted, too. Did you know bulky Magic Bounce Hatterene can actually survive Zacian’s +1 Behemoth Blade from full health behind Reflect? With Leftovers, you can even live two of them at +0, critical hits not withstanding for both of these calculations. Or what about HDB Skeledirge turning a number of special attackers into complete bait behind Light Screen? Trying to leverage your matchups against a weather team? No problem, just slap an Alolan Ninetales onto your team and scout their switch with a Protect/Encore set even if you can’t set up Aurora Veil.

Just do yourselves a favor and start looking into suspect testing Light Clay before offense gets even more out of hand than it already is. That’s all I’m asking. Please?

 

[LBN]

Going to ignore the hubbub about Alolan Ninetales in the Koraidon Kyogre tier above me, seriously if you are letting Alolan ninetales lay up the veil you are the problem.

That said, I think its time we open the floodgates. One of Koraidon and Miraidon need to go at this point. Miraidon is a tumor that sure, isn't getting any worse and honestly i think has fallen off a bit, but forcing ting lu on every team without exception is very wack. On the other hand, i find it brings alot less to the tier and perhaps 1 less ting lu on every team means more resources for broken ass Koraidon and other stupid shit.

On the other hand, Koraidon is debating as automatic an addition to teams as USUM P-Don is, and that's very high praise. It's by leaps and bounds the best and frankly, only good scarfer in the tier, providing absurd amount of value in balancing other dumb sweepers like dd arc forms and Zacian-Crowned. Not only that, it provides valuable defensive utility in replacing Kyogre rain, which really helps since kyogre is fucking dumb on its own... However Koraidon is arguably both more constricting and more broken than Miraidon at this stage. Scale shot practically invalidates both Skeledirge and Toxapex as counterplay, and in exchange all we got was Alomomola, which sure, it helps, but you require Arceus-Fairy to reliably hold the turf for any meaningful time, and thats just against one set. Tera fire SD, CB, Scarf, Life orb there's alot of small variety that fluctuates what actually checks it to an obnoxious degree. That said, I genuinely can't imagine this tier having a semblance of stability without bandaid scarf korai fixing our dogshit scarfers plague. Seriously why is the 2nd best one Great Tusk.

Overall, I'd like to see some discussions on which one should go. Personally I'm probably on team Nuke Korai at this point, but I'd like to see what other people think on it

 

[Edgar]

Going to ignore the hubbub about Alolan Ninetales in the Koraidon Kyogre tier above me, seriously if you are letting Alolan ninetales lay up the veil you are the problem.

That said, I think its time we open the floodgates. One of Koraidon and Miraidon need to go at this point. Miraidon is a tumor that sure, isn't getting any worse and honestly i think has fallen off a bit, but forcing ting lu on every team without exception is very wack. On the other hand, i find it brings alot less to the tier and perhaps 1 less ting lu on every team means more resources for broken ass Koraidon and other stupid shit.

On the other hand, Koraidon is debating as automatic an addition to teams as USUM P-Don is, and that's very high praise. It's by leaps and bounds the best and frankly, only good scarfer in the tier, providing absurd amount of value in balancing other dumb sweepers like dd arc forms and Zacian-Crowned. Not only that, it provides valuable defensive utility in replacing Kyogre rain, which really helps since kyogre is fucking dumb on its own... However Koraidon is arguably both more constricting and more broken than Miraidon at this stage. Scale shot practically invalidates both Skeledirge and Toxapex as counterplay, and in exchange all we got was Alomomola, which sure, it helps, but you require Arceus-Fairy to reliably hold the turf for any meaningful time, and thats just against one set. Tera fire SD, CB, Scarf, Life orb there's alot of small variety that fluctuates what actually checks it to an obnoxious degree. That said, I genuinely can't imagine this tier having a semblance of stability without bandaid scarf korai fixing our dogshit scarfers plague. Seriously why is the 2nd best one Great Tusk.

Overall, I'd like to see some discussions on which one should go. Personally I'm probably on team Nuke Korai at this point, but I'd like to see what other people think on it

Oh boy.

For starters, you are comparing two completely different Pokemon, the fact that you are comparing Koraidon to Primal Groudon is already very misleading. Primal Groudon in the generations where it existed had different forms of utility, Koraidon, as the way you phrased it in your post, has one (Choice Scarf). Not to mention, how you approach a pokemon like Primal Groudon is completely different than how you approach Koraidon. From what I've seen, Primal Groudon has at least 4 or 5 different offensive sets, Koraidon has 2 and, with the same gimmick, realistically speaking. I have to make this distinction because of how alarming you make it sound and, from my perspective, reality couldn't be further away from that of what you speak of. They are both metagame defining pokemon but not in the same way by any means, just because something is metagame defining it doesn't necessarily mean the "flood gates" should be opened.

Now, if we really want to go deep into how the meta has been developing, I have been playing post-Home and now post-DLC since release and I can tell you that both Koraidon and Miraidon have way more counterplay than it might seem. I won't get much into detail as to what that entails but, I can safely say that there are more ways than one on how to approach every foreseeable matchup against these two. In the general sense, If your rationale is that those pokemon cannot be checked defensively and thus they have no reliable answers or counterplay to them, it does not speak on how limited and restrictive the tier is but, more so on how limited your meta knowledge actually is.

From my perspective, most metagame defining pokemon in Ubers have required an immense level of attention when dealing with them in the builder and in battle, this has been the case for many generations. This is not new to this gen and it is something that we will likely see in future installments of Ubers. If you are considering a ban on these two pokemon because they have no apparent defensive counterplay (they both do btw), then you are setting the bar too low. From where I stand, a pokemon should only be considered to be banned in Ubers if games repeatedly boil down to who wins with that pokemon first (see ORAS M-Ray and SV Calyrex-S). I don't think neither of the pokemon in question come close to this and personally, I don't think they will in the current state of the metagame.

We are one week into the meta, the alarms are being sounded too early and I find it very pretentious that a ban is prospected because Alomomola isn't enough to deal with Koraidon.

 

[ACR1]

Oh boy.

For starters, you are comparing two completely different Pokemon, the fact that you are comparing Koraidon to Primal Groudon is already very misleading. Primal Groudon in the generations where it existed had different forms of utility, Koraidon, as the way you phrased it in your post, has one (Choice Scarf). Not to mention, how you approach a pokemon like Primal Groudon is completely different than how you approach Koraidon. From what I've seen, Primal Groudon has at least 4 or 5 different offensive sets, Koraidon has 2 and, with the same gimmick, realistically speaking. I have to make this distinction because of how alarming you make it sound and, from my perspective, reality couldn't be further away from that of what you speak of. They are both metagame defining pokemon but not in the same way by any means, just because something is metagame defining it doesn't necessarily mean the "flood gates" should be opened.

Now, if we really want to go deep into how the meta has been developing, I have been playing post-Home and now post-DLC since release and I can tell you that both Koraidon and Miraidon have way more counterplay than it might seem. I won't get much into detail as to what that entails but, I can safely say that there are more ways than one on how to approach every foreseeable matchup against these two. In the general sense, If your rationale is that those pokemon cannot be checked defensively and thus they have no reliable answers or counterplay to them, it does not speak on how limited and restrictive the tier is but, more so on how limited your meta knowledge actually is.

From my perspective, most metagame defining pokemon in Ubers have required an immense level of attention when dealing with them in the builder and in battle, this has been the case for many generations. This is not new to this gen and it is something that we will likely see in future installments of Ubers. If you are considering a ban on these two pokemon because they have no apparent defensive counterplay (they both do btw), then you are setting the bar too low. From where I stand, a pokemon should only be considered to be banned in Ubers if games repeatedly boil down to who wins with that pokemon first (see ORAS M-Ray and SV Calyrex-S). I don't think neither of the pokemon in question come close to this and personally, I don't think they will in the current state of the metagame.

We are one week into the meta, the alarms are being sounded too early and I find it very pretentious that a ban is prospected because Alomomola isn't enough to deal with Koraidon.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Can we get a survey asking for Koraidon suspect test? I was barely ok with Koraidon so far, but Scale Shot has finally broken it for me. It still brings value to the tier as the best Scarfer, but it's become very difficult to handle recently

 

[Negative Charge]

Can we get a survey asking for Koraidon suspect test? I was barely ok with Koraidon so far, but Scale Shot has finally broken it for me. It still brings value to the tier as the best Scarfer, but it's become very difficult to handle recently

no

 

[Joseph Gomes]

no

Yes

 

[clare]

I don't understand how people are even entertaining a Koraidon ban. Calyrex-S was banned because it (1) has no counters (2) snowballs out of control if it gets a KO and (3) most importantly, runs a myriad of sets (Scarf, Specs, Sash, LO + NP, SubSeed) that have vastly different checks. For example, if your Arceus comes in expecting Choiced Astral Barrage but it was actually LO Tera Fighting, you lose one of your Caly-S answers and are now facing down a monstrosity with 643 SpA, 438 Spe, and Ghost/Fighting coverage.

All Koraidons run the same set: Fighting/Fire/Dragon + filler, where the filler can be Swords Dance, Stomping Tantrum, U-Turn, etc. depending on the set. The Speed-boosting flavors (Scale Shot or Flame Charge) lack the immediate damage output to deal with Fairy-types, and the Tera Fire Flare Blitz wallbreakers lack longevity. Koraidon also suffers from 4MSS: the only way to cover Toxapex, Skeledirge, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza simultaneously is to run 4 attacks, but then you lose out on an actual stallbreaking move (Swords Dance, or if you're weird, Taunt).

Finally, Koraidon is a critical answer to Tera Water Kyogre and an important way to scare out Ting-Lu. Without Koraidon as an answer, Tera Water Choice Specs Kyogre achieves such horrific feats under Sticky Web such as a 70% chance to OHKO specially defensive Eternatus after Stealth Rock, basically requiring Utility Umbrella to counter.

We didn't ban Kyogre in gen 5, P-Don in gen 6, or Caly-S in gen 8, and it's pretty clear to me that Koraidon is less centralizing than any of those threats.

 

[bdt2002]

Caly-S in gen 7

I promise I’m not trying to make fun of you- everyone makes typos, after all- but I do find this one particularly funny. Sorry if this came across as rude in any way.

Edit to prevent double posting: This is basically my thoughts on the Koraidon discussion.

 

[clare]

I promise I’m not trying to make fun of you- everyone makes typos, after all- but I do find this one particularly funny. Sorry if this came across as rude in any way.

Ah yes, corrected.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

Hooo boy Korai. I’ve been playing this tier as long as it’s existed and I’ve got VERY strong feelings about it. This mf needs to go. In this post, I’ll explain exactly what it is that makes Korai broken and address some counterarguments.

All Koraidons run the same set: Fighting/Fire/Dragon + filler, where the filler can be Swords Dance, Stomping Tantrum, U-Turn, etc. depending on the set.

Fighting/Dragon/Fire is already amazing in its own right, being completely unresisted in Ubers. This is why Scarf is such a good set. It capitalizes on Koraidon’s fantastic offensive profile and Spikes being everywhere due to Ting-Lu being amazing and removal being extremely limited with U-turn pivoting into an absurd attacker like Miraidon. Thus, knowing what moves Korai is running does not really help with answering it.

Scarf on its own is an incredible set, but the best set is far and away the SD set.
This set is what truly makes Korai broken in DLC1.

The only way to cover Toxapex, Skeledirge, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza simultaneously is to run 4 attacks, but then you lose out on an actual stallbreaking move (Swords Dance, or if you're weird, Taunt).

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 155-185 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 210-245 (50.9 - 59.4%) -- approx. 2HKO

slap on loaded dice. problem solved.


Before DLC1, the reason SD wasn’t making Koraidon broken was the lack of power it had. Dragon Claw and Flame Charge were alright moves, but they weren’t that strong and thus had defensive counterplay, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Fairyceus, Lando-T, and even the rarer Alomomola could somewhat comfortably take it on due to the lack of power it had outside of Close Combat/Low Kick. However, now it has Scale Shot, meaning it can drop Flame Charge for the significantly stronger Flare Blitz. It’s impossible to stress how big of a difference this makes, as now it no longer needs any extra coverage to break everything in the game, WHILE being obnoxiously difficult to revenge kill.

The Speed-boosting flavors (Scale Shot or Flame Charge) lack the immediate damage output to deal with Fairy-types, and Tera Fire Flare Blitz wallbreakers lack longevity.

While this is true, Tera being a factor means Korai doesn’t need the immediate power, as it can just Tera Fire, SD, and then the only remotely bulky Fairy in the tier, Fairyceus, drops to Flare Blitz. Nevermind the fact that it can’t run Leftovers, meaning it gets worn down significantly more by hazards. Also, Korai does indeed lack longevity, but with the sheer power of its SD Scale Shot set, it’s very likely to have left the opposing team so beaten down that it’s all too easy for its teammates to clean up.

Also, thanks to Scale Shot being an incredibly powerful move that boosts Koraidon’s base 135 speed, this bitch is insanely hard to revenge kill. Your only truly reliable method of doing this is to get Korai to drop its defenses enough and pick it off with Extreme Speed from Arceus or Rayquaza.

Finally, Koraidon is a critical answer to Tera Water Kyogre and an important way to scare out Ting-Lu. Without Koraidon as an answer, Tera Water Choice Specs Kyogre achieves such horrific feats under Sticky Web such as a 70% chance to OHKO specially defensive Eternatus after Stealth Rock, basically requiring Utility Umbrella to counter.

Okay firstly specially defensive Etern runs Heavy-Duty Boots and Spikes are amazing in this tier so uhhhh. But really, this is more a testament to how Tera makes already amazing Pokémon absurd, rather than Kyogre being broken. Tera is extremely contentious as is and I feel like webs being good only exacerbates that issue, but this is a post about Korai so that’s a topic for another post.


In conclusion, Korai is broken because Scarf and SD Scale Shot are already very difficult to handle as is, but hazards being fantastic in this tier and Tera continuing to exist push it over the edge in many players’ eyes, myself included.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Koraidon also suffers from 4MSS: the only way to cover Toxapex, Skeledirge, Giratina-O, and Rayquaza simultaneously is to run 4 attacks, but then you lose out on an actual stallbreaking move (Swords Dance, or if you're weird, Taunt).

I am confused if this is a serious comment or not, since it's a hilariously bad lie. Have you actually tried out any calc before writing this? Loaded Dice Koraidon with SD, Scale Shot, Flare Blitz and Low Kick beats all of the above in a single set.

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 155-185 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- approx. 87.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Pex can't switch in even once, becomes setup fodder instead)

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 360-430 (71.4 - 85.3%) -- approx. 2HKO (Koraidon can tera fire turn one and use SD, then use Giratina as setup fodder)

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 210-245 (50.9 - 59.4%) -- approx. 2HKO (little bit of mind game with tera fairy, but nothing big)

252 Atk Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 460-550 (131 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is without using Swords Dance, or having Life Orb/Choice Band. It's not item locked nor losing health to life orb chip.

Koraidon becomes immune to Wisp (from Dirge/Giratina) after Tera Fire, and Tera Fairy Dirge doesn't have the best time with Flare Blitz. If it got hit by scale shot while switching in, this happens afterwards

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge in Sun: 291-343 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I trust there's no need to provide calcs for +2 Koraidon. The only way to handle this reliably is with other Scarfers and priority.

 

[Edgar]

Hooo boy Korai. I’ve been playing this tier as long as it’s existed and I’ve got VERY strong feelings about it. This mf needs to go. In this post, I’ll explain exactly what it is that makes Korai broken and address some counterarguments.




Fighting/Dragon/Fire is already amazing in its own right, being completely unresisted in Ubers. This is why Scarf is such a good set. It capitalizes on Koraidon’s fantastic offensive profile and Spikes being everywhere due to Ting-Lu being amazing and removal being extremely limited with U-turn pivoting into an absurd attacker like Miraidon. Thus, knowing what moves Korai is running does not really help with answering it.

Scarf on its own is an incredible set, but the best set is far and away the SD set.
This set is what truly makes Korai broken in DLC1.



252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 155-185 (50.9 - 60.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Tera Fire Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 210-245 (50.9 - 59.4%) -- approx. 2HKO

slap on loaded dice. problem solved.


Before DLC1, the reason SD wasn’t making Koraidon broken was the lack of power it had. Dragon Claw and Flame Charge were alright moves, but they weren’t that strong and thus had defensive counterplay, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Fairyceus, Lando-T, and even the rarer Alomomola could somewhat comfortably take it on due to the lack of power it had outside of Close Combat/Low Kick. However, now it has Scale Shot, meaning it can drop Flame Charge for the significantly stronger Flare Blitz. It’s impossible to stress how big of a difference this makes, as now it no longer needs any extra coverage to break everything in the game, WHILE being obnoxiously difficult to revenge kill.




While this is true, Tera being a factor means Korai doesn’t need the immediate power, as it can just Tera Fire, SD, and then the only remotely bulky Fairy in the tier, Fairyceus, drops to Flare Blitz. Nevermind the fact that it can’t run Leftovers, meaning it gets worn down significantly more by hazards. Also, Korai does indeed lack longevity, but with the sheer power of its SD Scale Shot set, it’s very likely to have left the opposing team so beaten down that it’s all too easy for its teammates to clean up.

Also, thanks to Scale Shot being an incredibly powerful move that boosts Koraidon’s base 135 speed, this bitch is insanely hard to revenge kill. Your only truly reliable method of doing this is to get Korai to drop its defenses enough and pick it off with Extreme Speed from Arceus or Rayquaza.



Okay firstly specially defensive Etern runs Heavy-Duty Boots and Spikes are amazing in this tier so uhhhh. But really, this is more a testament to how Tera makes already amazing Pokémon absurd, rather than Kyogre being broken. Tera is extremely contentious as is and I feel like webs being good only exacerbates that issue, but this is a post about Korai so that’s a topic for another post.


In conclusion, Korai is broken because Scarf and SD Scale Shot are already very difficult to handle as is, but hazards being fantastic in this tier and Tera continuing to exist push it over the edge in many players’ eyes, myself included.

The problem with your argument regarding Koraidon being too strong to check defensively is that Scale Shot can get 5 hits, which I believe is not a solid backbone for saying that Koraidon is broken. Don't get me wrong, Koraidon totally bypasses those pokemon if they don't Terastalize and if you do get 5 hits with Scale Shot. Nevertheless, I don't think that is good enough reasoning to say that Koraidon is broken and that it needs to go. It just means that checking it defensively is harder than it already was. But being able to check something defensively or not and it being broken are two different things entirely.

Using Scale Shot by itself comes at a price, Koraidon has to get a Defense drop every time it uses it, and by doing so it opens itself to being checked by priority, or by a pokemon that can withstand an attack from it and hit back with a physical move.. I would argue that, even setting up SD and getting the +1 speed boost makes it difficult for Koraidon to sweep immediately, and I find it difficult that in 2 turns it is impossible to chip it to the point where priority or status can't take it out, especially since SV is more or less a hazards driven metagame and that works against Koraidon as well.

If we really want to touch on this topic, there are many options for teams to be built in such a way that they don't let Koraidon set up without taking substantial damage, but that's just what I think. Not to mention that, he importance of priority and reliable, fast, offensive options has never been more important because of this but, it is not necessarily a bad thing. It just means that teams have to built differently to that of pre-DLC metagame (which was already more offensive than defensive).

Also, Korai does indeed lack longevity, but with the sheer power of its SD Scale Shot set, it’s very likely to have left the opposing team so beaten down that it’s all too easy for its teammates to clean up.

Can you provide concrete examples of this? I don't see how this applies unless you mention things specifically. Who and under what scenarios does this apply, I can't but think that this is more empirical than anything.

In conclusion, Korai is broken because Scarf and SD Scale Shot are already very difficult to handle as is, but hazards being fantastic in this tier and Tera continuing to exist push it over the edge in many players’ eyes, myself included.

I heavily disagree with this, hazards are also being able to be set up on your opponent's team, Koraidon suffers from the same disadvantage your team suffers, if all games would be solved by who sets up hazards and then follows up with Koraidon first then it would see a substancial increment in usage, which I personally don't see at the moment. Not to mention, I believe Tera is actually the thing keeping Koraidon from being pushed over the edge, the Dragon and Fighting resists normally get 2hkod by unboosted Flare Bltiz in Sun without having to use Tera, if the person facing Koraidon didn't have the option to Tera, then I'd argue it would be way harder to check defensively because there wouldn't be any reliable Dragon/Fighting + Flare Blitz coverage sponges, the option to even play around that with Tera wouldn't be there. I could see why Tera Fire on Koraidon seems more broken than it is thugh but , it is only used under very specific circumstances and can be effective without using it, while you can have something on your team that resists the appropiate coverage move just to soft-check it using Tera.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

The problem with your argument regarding Koraidon being too strong to check defensively is that Scale Shot can get 5 hits, which I believe is not a solid backbone for saying that Koraidon is broken. Don't get me wrong, Koraidon totally bypasses those pokemon if they don't Terastalize and if you do get 5 hits with Scale Shot.

While I’d normally agree with a statement like this, remember that SV added Loaded Dice, an item that Scale Shot Korai can very viably run (and imo should!). It does miss the passive recovery of Leftovers but Loaded Dice making 4 Scale Shot hits guaranteed and giving Korai a solid enough chance to get 5 and shatter any defensive counterplay is more than worth the trade-off imo.

Using Scale Shot by itself comes at a price, Koraidon has to get a Defense drop every time it uses it, and by doing so it opens itself to being checked by priority, or by a pokemon that can withstand an attack from it and hit back with a physical move.

In Ubers, there’s like 3 viable Pokémon that can effectively run priority (Ekiller, Rayquaza, and Chien-Pao, and that last one is being VERY generous) so this is a seriously limiting factor, nevermind the fact that it’s not even guaranteed to stop a Korai assault, as Adamant Silk Scarf Ekiller, the best priority in the tier, does not come anywhere close to killing Korai from full with Espeed, topping out at 74.7%. Given how fast and appallingly strong Korai is, being at high or full health is a lot more realistic of a possibility in practice than it seems on paper.

Can you provide concrete examples of this? I don't see how this applies unless you mention things specifically. Who and under what scenarios does this apply, I can't but think that this is more empirical than anything.

It’s a beast when paired with any attacker in the game solely based of how absurd SD Scale Shot is. This bitch is so strong that it’s forcing a Tera or a KO, basically guaranteeing that something is being opened up for later. Is an Arceus or Rayquaza staring you down after Korai gets a kill, feeling very pressured to Espeed lest Korai sweep their whole team? Just go to Zacian and now you’ve got a physically offensive behemoth (blade) ready to go to work. Alternatively go to Calyrex-Ice! And with it gaining High Horsepower, set up Trick Room and start dropping everything in the tier.

This tier is so offensively potent that it really isn’t that hard to come up with examples of how Korai enables insane offensive monsters. Thus, while I get what you meant in a literal sense, in a practical sense I genuinely have no idea what you were trying to say. (I really don’t mean to be rude here, so if I am coming off as such, I truly apologize!)

I believe Tera is actually the thing keeping Koraidon from being pushed over the edge, the Dragon and Fighting resists normally get 2hkod by unboosted Flare Bltiz in Sun without having to use Tera, if the person facing Koraidon didn't have the option to Tera, then I'd argue it would be way harder to check defensively because there wouldn't be any reliable Dragon/Fighting + Flare Blitz coverage sponges, the option to even play around that with Tera wouldn't be there.

While I don’t necessarily think this point is false, I do believe that at that point, you’re genuinely just walking on eggshells just for Koraidon to not immediately win the game. Terastallizing to try to stop Koraidon isn’t a guaranteed strategy by any stretch of the imagination just because of how threatening it is.

 

[Edgar]

While I’d normally agree with a statement like this, remember that SV added Loaded Dice, an item that Scale Shot Korai can very viably run (and imo should!). It does miss the passive recovery of Leftovers but Loaded Dice making 4 Scale Shot hits guaranteed and giving Korai a solid enough chance to get 5 and shatter any defensive counterplay is more than worth the trade-off imo.



In Ubers, there’s like 3 viable Pokémon that can effectively run priority (Ekiller, Rayquaza, and Chien-Pao, and that last one is being VERY generous) so this is a seriously limiting factor, nevermind the fact that it’s not even guaranteed to stop a Korai assault, as Adamant Silk Scarf Ekiller, the best priority in the tier, does not come anywhere close to killing Korai from full with Espeed, topping out at 74.7%. Given how fast and appallingly strong Korai is, being at high or full health is a lot more realistic of a possibility in practice than it seems on paper.



It’s a beast when paired with any attacker in the game solely based of how absurd SD Scale Shot is. This bitch is so strong that it’s forcing a Tera or a KO, basically guaranteeing that something is being opened up for later. Is an Arceus or Rayquaza staring you down after Korai gets a kill, feeling very pressured to Espeed lest Korai sweep their whole team? Just go to Zacian and now you’ve got a physically offensive behemoth (blade) ready to go to work. Alternatively go to Calyrex-Ice! And with it gaining High Horsepower, set up Trick Room and start dropping everything in the tier.

This tier is so offensively potent that it really isn’t that hard to come up with examples of how Korai enables insane offensive monsters. Thus, while I get what you meant in a literal sense, in a practical sense I genuinely have no idea what you were trying to say. (I really don’t mean to be rude here, so if I am coming off as such, I truly apologize!)



While I don’t necessarily think this point is false, I do believe that at that point, you’re genuinely just walking on eggshells just for Koraidon to not immediately win the game. Terastallizing to try to stop Koraidon isn’t a guaranteed strategy by any stretch of the imagination just because of how threatening it is.

While I’d normally agree with a statement like this, remember that SV added Loaded Dice, an item that Scale Shot Korai can very viably run (and imo should!). It does miss the passive recovery of Leftovers but Loaded Dice making 4 Scale Shot hits guaranteed and giving Korai a solid enough chance to get 5 and shatter any defensive counterplay is more than worth the trade-off imo.

I am aware of Loaded Dice, but your calcs showed 5 hits, not 4. The pokemon you mentioned are simply not vialble, period. There is not a problem in them not being viable anymore. It's a simple meta drift and it should be accepted as it is, it's not a priority for OU/UU pokemon to be viable in Ubers, if they are it is because the meta allows them to.

In Ubers, there’s like 3 viable Pokémon that can effectively run priority (Ekiller, Rayquaza, and Chien-Pao, and that last one is being VERY generous) so this is a seriously limiting factor, nevermind the fact that it’s not even guaranteed to stop a Korai assault, as Adamant Silk Scarf Ekiller, the best priority in the tier, does not come anywhere close to killing Korai from full with Espeed, topping out at 74.7%. Given how fast and appallingly strong Korai is, being at high or full health is a lot more realistic of a possibility in practice than it seems on paper.

What I posted earlier referred to the fact that these pokemon help revenge kill Koraidon with chip, which is easily doable if Koraidon sets up on any that can attack it / status it. It's a simple scenario of getting damage on it so it can be addressed with a second pokemon. Nevertheless, Koraidon restricting people to run some sort of priority (it isn't the case) is not enough for it to be deemed broken, in my opinion anyways. There are several pokemon that restrict builds even more and it can be argued they are not worthy of a ban, Miraidon forces most teams to run Ting-Lu,. Kyogre forces you to run 1 or 2 water resists, etc. Restriction in builds is a simple side-effect of having metagame-defining pokemon.

It’s a beast when paired with any attacker in the game solely based of how absurd SD Scale Shot is. This bitch is so strong that it’s forcing a Tera or a KO, basically guaranteeing that something is being opened up for later. Is an Arceus or Rayquaza staring you down after Korai gets a kill, feeling very pressured to Espeed lest Korai sweep their whole team? Just go to Zacian and now you’ve got a physically offensive behemoth (blade) ready to go to work. Alternatively go to Calyrex-Ice! And with it gaining High Horsepower, set up Trick Room and start dropping everything in the tier.

This seems very subjective and again, based on experience. If that was the universal case, it wouldn't take long to realize that HO just runs over most teams, there is plenty of counterplay to deal with situations like these. Solid defensive cores with good offensive answers are normally able to deal with SD Koraidon + other sweepers, even without having to use your tera.

While I don’t necessarily think this point is false, I do believe that at that point, you’re genuinely just walking on eggshells just for Koraidon to not immediately win the game. Terastallizing to try to stop Koraidon isn’t a guaranteed strategy by any stretch of the imagination just because of how threatening it is.

I don't see how this is even remotely relevant. You are saying you are walking on eggshells to stop Koraidon from sweeping immediately, this lacks logic because ideally you are trying to win as well. You are supposed to have a gameplan and an idea of what your winpath looks like. If you are simply playing in a way to stop from your opponent from winning based on the premise that they have a Koraidon then you are approaching the game wrong, you should be trying to achieve your win conditions as well. As for Tera, it is not a guaranteed answer but Koraidon also using Tera is also not a guaranteed auto-win. In fact, it is far more telegraphed than it is with pokemon like Zacian and Miraidon.

 

[Sahvyt]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1964949897
hey yeah uh what the fuck??? how did a basculegion outspeed both my korai and mirai??

 

[Taka]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1964949897
hey yeah uh what the fuck??? how did a basculegion outspeed both my korai and mirai??

It’s just scarf basculegion. It’s something run to outspeed Scarf Korai / Mirai in Rain. Jolly Basculegion outspeeds Korai + Mirai but is slower than Zacian-C outside of Rain.

 

[H!kari]

I'm just getting back into Ubers after taking a break when the DLC dropped. Has Miraidon fallen in usage? It was an auto include on teams in the home meta, but a lot of the teams I've been seeing between the 1400s to 1700s seemed to have dropped Miraidon in favor of Koraidon counters mainly bulky waters like Dozo or Toxapex. Is this because players at the top end of the ladder are using safer teams that skew more towards balance or because something in the DLC made Miraidon worse? Is scale shot Koraidon so threatening that it's bullied Miraidon out of the meta?

I'm also wonder what people's thought's on CB Koraidon is in the current meta. I used it a lot before the DLC and the problem I ran into was scarfed Koraidon and Miraidon. But Miraidon seems to have fallen off in usage and Koraidons are not running scarf as often because of scale shot.

With Orichalcum Pulse active the only popular defensive wall that can switch into CB Koraidon is Ting-Lu, who dies with 1 layer of spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 264-312 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 289-342 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 249-294 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

CB Koraidon is also very good into the premier offensive threats in the tier, threatening 1HKOs against opposing Koraidon and Miraidon's that tera to a type neutral to dragon, while tera fire allows Koraidon to live a 5 hit scale shot from opposing Koraidons.

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fire Koraidon: 255-300 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fire Koraidon: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Zacian in Sun: 357-420 (100.5 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Miraidon: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It feels like new toy syndrome is skewing the meta towards scale shot Koraidon, when CB is still very good, has 100% accuracy and carries a high surprise factor as an off meta pick.

 

[PrimalKyogre]

I'm just getting back into Ubers after taking a break when the DLC dropped. Has Miraidon fallen in usage? It was an auto include on teams in the home meta, but a lot of the teams I've been seeing between the 1400s to 1700s seemed to have dropped Miraidon in favor of Koraidon counters mainly bulky waters like Dozo or Toxapex. Is this because players at the top end of the ladder are using safer teams that skew more towards balance or because something in the DLC made Miraidon worse? Is scale shot Koraidon so threatening that it's bullied Miraidon out of the meta?

I'm also wonder what people's thought's on CB Koraidon is in the current meta. I used it a lot before the DLC and the problem I ran into was scarfed Koraidon and Miraidon. But Miraidon seems to have fallen off in usage and Koraidons are not running scarf as often because of scale shot.

With Orichalcum Pulse active the only popular defensive wall that can switch into CB Koraidon is Ting-Lu, who dies with 1 layer of spikes

252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 264-312 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 289-342 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 249-294 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

CB Koraidon is also very good into the premier offensive threats in the tier, threatening 1HKOs against opposing Koraidon and Miraidon's that tera to a type neutral to dragon, while tera fire allows Koraidon to live a 5 hit scale shot from opposing Koraidons.

252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fire Koraidon: 255-300 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fire Koraidon: 357-420 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 4 Def Zacian in Sun: 357-420 (100.5 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Miraidon: 403-475 (118.1 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It feels like new toy syndrome is skewing the meta towards scale shot Koraidon, when CB is still very good, has 100% accuracy and carries a high surprise factor as an off meta pick.

It really doesn’t seem fair to refer to scale shot as “new toy syndrome.” It has proven itself to be an extremely threatening setup sweeper, while also mowing down defensive checks with ease.

Band Korai breaks through its defensive checks, sure, but this ignores the fact that Scale Korai can run through Toxapex, Skeledirge, and Dondozo just about as easily as band while also setting up stat boosts. Scale sets also have the added utility of not needing to lock into Outrage, which puts it in a rough spot to be revenge killed by Arceus-Fairy and Zacian-C.

Band Korai being able to OHKO terastralized Koraidon/Miraidon is really situational, I don’t think it’s a terribly relevant argument in its favor. You shouldn’t often be going for that speed tie, they may not be at full health (especially endgame, which is when you actually WOULD go for that tie,) etc.

 

[YubelVT]

I used to be a doubter, but after some games against players that I probably would have beat anyway considering their teams (the state of the ladder nowadays smh), OTR Caly-Ice is fucking nuts. I feel like it should be illegal to set up in front of a +2 Baxcalibur with any pokemon that doesn't have unaware, but here we are. Speaking of Unaware, Zekrom is gonna go CRAZY. Being a physical mon that can beat all 3 of the unaware mons is nuts + the obvious synergy with Miraidon. idk if DD or scarf will be the move but I'll be messing with both. That's enough speculation tho, tell ladder players to stop playing dedicated trick room teams please ty <3