Ubers CCAT 2: Runway is Clear, You are Free to Land [Step 4 - Playtesting]

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Haha?

Sorry, I've totally forgotten about this, a new poll will be set up soon with regards to voting on Groudon's sets. I will leave you all a few days to discuss Groudon sets in this thread, good ones will be edited into the original post and a poll will go up in a few days.

Let's get this going.

edit: by discuss i mostly meant propose new sets, ones that have merit have already been added to the OP, but i am always open to new ideas.

 

[NTT]

I think we should go for a Paradance set, as suggested on the previous page. It makes a good marriage of offence and support, spreading paralysis can give Reshiram a safety net against Scarved revenge killers whilst simultaneously being able to hit like a truck and clear out a lot of common treats.

 

[Furai]

I support Paradancer Groudon. We're going Offense, and Groudon with Swords Dance surely is a big offensive threat to any team. Thunder Wave is just a beast support for Reshiram, as it is not exactly fast without a Flame Charge boost. The ability to outspeed sutff like Scarf Palkia or +1 Rayquaza is just remarkable.

This is the set;

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 200 Atk / 108 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

 

[NTT]

Just a quick question, this is the first CCAT I've participated in, am I right in thinking that once we determine a Pokemon/set (In this case "xxx" Groudon), another round of voting is undergone to pick the third member, and so on?

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Yes, the order is pokemon --> then set, repeat. Following all of that there will be a tweaking period where we can fix everything up (it's inherently flawed to build a team member by member, sadly, meaning this is a necessity to make sure the right sets are picked). by fix up i mean revising sets, ensuring that we cover the big threats and just making sure that everything 'clicks'.

also furai @ your set, i don't think scarf palkia and rayquaza will be switching into groudon anyway. also groudon without a fire move will get spiked all over on by ferrothorn and forretress, this is why i am more in favour of sets with more attacks.

edit2: the point i was trying to make is that it is very rare that groudon will be able to paralyze rayquaza and palkia. palkia won't attempt to revenge groudon unless it's in KO range, admittedly, mix dd and mix rayquaza sets may attempt to switch into eq but that is a very brash move if the groudon set is not yet revealed. admittedly, ferrothorn and forretress dislike a +2 earthquake, but upon seeing SD they can immediately switch out, or switch into anything else but SD, set up hazards, then switch out; a series of events that a groudon with a fire move would avoid. also skarmory only takes roughly 62% maximum from a +2 stone edge from that groudon, specially defensive skarmory. with that being said, i don't think it's a bad team mate to choose per se, but given at this stage of the CCAT we have neither seen, nor heard mention of a spinner or xatu, then any opportunities to lay down hazards will severely harm the team, as reshiram is weak to all forms of them, and doubly weak to stealth rock. additionally, whilst in theory paralysis support is really cool, i would highly doubt that you can paralyze more than 2 opposing pokemon in a game, as once it's revealed people aren't going to be so careless.

it isn't a bad set, but if we are to consider it, i HIGHLY recommend considering a spinner or xatu as future team mates - this goes for shrang's set as well.

 

[Furai]

A Rayquaza locked into Outrage would have to stay in though, and Palkia-users often misjudge the damage on Groudon. I agree that Palkia is more situational, and the Spikes thing. Neither of the common Spikers will enjoy a +2 Earthquake, or in Skarmory's case--a +2 Stone Edge, though. Still seems like a very viable set for me.

 

[hamiltonion]

I'd like to start off by saying Paradancer Groudon doesnt seem to be too useful. I have rarely ever seen Thunder Wave be useful when using Paradancer. Once, people see you firing off a Thunder Wave, the usefulness substantially reduces. Secondly, like Poppy said nothing of note to Reshiram ever switches into Groudon such as a Palkia or Offensive Kyogre (not monoatttacker that is). Therefore I would like to propose this:

Groudon @ Life Orb
Trait: Drought
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Fire Punch / Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Good ol' Rock Polish Groudon. This thing is phenomenal as a offensive lead to beat Dialga as well as a lategame cleaner. I play it like the normal RP Groudon except I use this as a lead several times especially against Dialga. You could easily go for even higher Speed investment but this seems good enough. Dialga flat out dies to a Earthquake and a lot of other mons take a crap lot of damage. Fire Punch is up there to nail any Ferrothorn or Skarmory but if you're feeling adventurous use Double Dance as well. We don't really care about Ferrothorn. A simple prediction and a switch to Reshiram is enough to turn the tables and bag a Flame Charge speed boost.

After a Rock Polish you outspeed everthing up to Scarf Garchomp which is quite rare but nevertheless a threat. The best thing is that Reshiram and Groudon have superb functional synergy especially these two sets. This Groudon can also take a hit from +2 Extreme Killer if the need be so its not totally useless on the defensive side. About, the OP, this is actually a compromise between Shrang and Poppy's Groudon set. It can boost its stats and sweep if needed but also has a lot of offensive pressure from turn 1.

 

[DDRMaster]

I agree with using Paradancing Groudon, but I don't think we should use the standard EVs. 200 Atk and Adamant specified so that Groudon can OHKO the standard Lugia at +2 after it takes SR damage. However, we're not going to be running SR on this team so 200 Atk EVs seems like a waste. Instead, we should use 252 Atk for maximum offensive power. Then HP should be maxed out (and I can't figure out why you wouldn't max it out on the standarard set, anyway) to maximize overall bulk and allow Groudon to take 5 Seismic Tosses, thanks to Leftovers. Even with less physical bulk than the standard set, Groudon can still take a +1 LO Jolly Rayquaza's Outrage after taking damage from 1 layer of Spikes and being healed with 1 turn of Leftovers recovery.

tl;dr: This should be the Paradancing Groudon set.

Groudon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Drought

~ Swords Dance
~ Thunder Wave
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge

 

[shrang]

For some reason, I'm not a huge fan of Paradancer Groudon. Maybe it's just because I'm not too sold on paralysis spreading. Here's the Groudon set I've been using instead:

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Nature: Impish
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Bulky Double Dancer serves two purposes, one to wall, and the other to clean up late game. The good thing about this Groudon's is its fantastic bulk. You can easily set up in Ferrothorn's face if you needed to, since Power Whip does something shitty like 30%. 56 Speed EVs let you outspeed ScarfOgre after a Rock Polish.

 

[Bossness]

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SDef / 136 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw/Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
Hey shrang remember this Groudon - the one I posted on your omaster RMT? This thing can survive 2 spacial rends from palkia and set up both rock polish and swords dance. This can OHKO most things at +2. It also 2hkos palkia before palkia koes back. This is a great teammate for reshiram for that reason. It can also take ice beams from timid scarf kyogre twice.(pretty sure). I actually have playtested this and it works great after everything has been weakened.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Voting will go up soon! If you have sets you want to see please post them now, with adequate reasoning for why we should pick it to team up with Flame Charge Reshiram.

Please read the OP before posting, as I have updated it with all the sets that I am considering thus far.

 

[SkullCandy]

I tried out a Sun Offense team to research this thread and the most useful Groudon was this:

Groudon @ Leftovers
Ability: Drought
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Overheat
-Thunder Wave

I never really had time to make good use of a Swords Dance because Ghost Arceus and Giratina would keep coming in a burning me. So I thought "screw it" and decided to go 3 Attacks + TW which was much more useful. The paralysis really helped when it came to sweeping with Reshiram and Overheat was great for taking out any Skarmory who tried to wall Groudon as well as roasting Forretress and Ferrothorn. The EV's meant that Groudon hit hard and could take things like Palkia's Outrage and other Groudon's Earthquakes as well as destroying sandstorm teams by removing their weather and annihilating Tyrantiar and Excadrill.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

I believe that set is sorely outclassed by Lum Berry Groudon; it can get past Ghost Arceus unless they invest heavily in defense and Gira-A is 2HKOed at +2. It does, however, lack a fire move. But if your aim is to get past ghosts with WoW then Lum Berry SD / RP is your answer.

edit: oh oops, i misinterpreted the content of your post; regardless, i think that my set accomplishes what yours does but better, as trying to take groudon on the tank route and making it so slow just opens it up to being ohko'd by Life Orb Dialga, mix Rayquaza and things like that. I also said earlier why I'm not a huge fan of paralysis spreading on Groudon.

 

[SkullCandy]

No I meant that instead of trying to sweep with Groudon I would use him as a supporter who can take out anything with entry hazards and wall weaker physical attacks. Sorry if I made it seem like I was trying to get Groudon past Ghost Arceus or Giratina as that can easily be done by other team mates such as Reshiram or Heatran is we pick him.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Okay, the poll is up - you have four days to vote; let's get it!

Oh, and please only vote for one set, it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Alrighty~ this poll is now closed and Furai's Groudon set

Groudon @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 200 HP / 200 Atk / 108 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

much to my chagrin, has won.

A new poll will go up soon where you can vote on our team's third team mate. In the mean time feel free to discuss and put forward what you think would be good, and why.

 

[SkullCandy]

Palkia is imperative for a sun team (especially an offensive one like ours). It checks Kyogre and (if we go for scarf) is a great revenge killer. It also has great coverage and gets pseudo-STAB on Fire Blast.

 

[NTT]

Yeah, the next choice is about as imperative to the team as Groudon was- we need Palkia. It's the single best candidate that both counters Kyogre and brings tremendous offensive presence. The only real question is which set we use.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Whilst Palkia is of course a good check to Kyogre, let us not dismiss the other viable candidate - Water Arceus; its longevity is far greater and depending on the set it can provide invaluable team support or a bulky Calm Minder (albeit one that has its STAB weakened in sun...)

The reason I bring this up is the fact that with the unlikely use of a spinner (the only offensive spinners being Kabutops and Excadrill, and you can't use those on sun) Palkia can be worn down by repeated Water Spouts and a smart Kyogre player will eventually best it. This is exacerbated by our teams own lack of entry hazards meaning that double switching really comes at no cost to the opposing team. Furthermore, Dialga can set up Stealth Rock on our Groudon, as it survives the Earthquake, and can even 2HKO with Dragon Pulse + Fire Blast. Offensive Dialga is even worse, as it has a high chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor and can just set up Stealth Rock afterwards.

so yea there's a reason i put forward my groudon set /whine.

tl;dr consider Water Arceus because it has reliable recovery

 

[DDRMaster]

Is there going to be a vote of which EV spread to use on that Groudon? I mainly voted for it because of the 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def Spread I posted. All of my reasoning behind that spread is located in this post.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

To be honest DDRMaster, something as trivial as that is one that can be changed as you playtest with the team. Furthermore, when the tweaking period if available things like EV spreads, moves, and even pokemon can and will be changed!

 

[NTT]

tl;dr consider Water Arceus because it has reliable recovery

It may have reliable recovery, but it doesn't have Palkia's neutrality to Thunder. According to Smogon's calculator a 252HP/252SpDef@Calm Arceus takes more from a Timid 252SpAtt Thunder (No item) than a 6HP Palkia. Unlike Palkia it can then be outsped and potentially get 2HKO'd with any kind of prior damage. You're right that a smart player can wear Palkia down, but a smart player is just as capable of predicting a switch in. Palkia is also more powerful and still has a viable STAB in the sun. Both have merit, but I'd personally say Palkia's still the top candidate for the job.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Yeah, the thing is Groudon is immune to Thunder, and Water Arceus resists Water Spout and Ice Beam, whereas Palkia takes neutral damage from Ice Beam. If Water Arceus switches into Thunder it can switch right back out to Groudon and take advantage of the weather. If Palkia switches into Ice Beam Groudon isn't going to be coming back in. Furthermore, when Kyogre comes in on Groudon it is much more risky to pick Thunder, considering Groudon is an immunity.

edit@below: your assumptions are unfair to make Palkia takes like 50% from ice beam from choice specs kyogre, so it can lose since it can't ohko with thunder. if your sole point is that palkia takes less from thunder than water arceus then i'd say you'd need to reconsider, water arceus takes NVE damage from 2/3 of kyogre's attacks, whereas palkia only takes 1/3. it is an undisputed fact that water arceus has more longevity than palkia. also palkia straight up loses to cm three attacks kyogre, whereas water arceus stands a chance by toxicing it then switching out, admittedly both do a poor job of handling it, but it is the lesser of the two evils.

quite frankly my only point is that water arceus will survive longer. palkia has the offensive advantage and better secondary stab to use in sun. if you feel like you can dispute this then feel free. also to address your previous point, palkia can be worn down, and there is NOTHING the palkia player can do about it, arceus water can be predicted but can recover later, whilst both are equally predictable for the kyogre to predict arceus water can still recover off the damage later, so my point still stands. arceus also has flamethrower and overheat so your palkia having pseudo STAB point is irrelevant. your second post makes an unfair assumption in that both are scarfed, kyogre can very well run specs or cm + 3 attacks blah blah

 

[NTT]

Palkia takes even less from Ice Beam though, being 3HKO'd at best (Both pokemon scarved, timid, 6HP/252SpAtt/252Spe), which means if it does switch into an Ice Beam, Palkia is in a position to retaliate and KO depending on how much prior damage Kyogre has received, with Thunder inflicting 63.7% minimum, without risking being KO'd in return. There isn't necessarily going to be a need to switch out a second time if Kyogre switches in on something at least moderately powerful in the first place.

 

[hamiltonion]

I'd would like to start off by saying that we (the community) have really exacerbated our Kyogre and in general weakness to rain. First off, Reshiram in itself is weak to Rain, kinda obvious, and poses little to no threat to a decently built Rain team. In Rain, Reshiram's most reliable move is Draco Meteor which is pretty much one time use. After that you're stuck with an Outrage which most physically defensive Pokemon will be able to tank easily. In Rain, Reshiram will also find it difficult to break the standard rain core. 64 HP Scarf Kyogre can also take a Draco Meteor if the need arises ~75.9% - 89.9%. Now, the more obvious response is that its a sun team so Reshiram is supposed to function in sun. However, keeping the sun up isn't really as easy as it sounds. Due to the lack of hazards on this, Kyogre can just keep switching in and out without ANY damage taken. So, its really no problem for a rain team to blot out Reshiram's precious sunlight.

This said, its all archival at the moment since we've already made our decisions. Since, the obvious winner of the poll at this moment is Paradancer Groudon, we can be assured that it poses absolutely 0 threat to a rain team especially since, Groudon is slow as hell, cant really punish Ferrothorn or Skarmory and to be very frank, its really really hard to paralyze something of note, since Pokemon like Kyogre or Palkia dont normally switch into a Groudon. So, we will be needing a very sturdy rain check and as much as I hate it, I have to say Water Arceus does seem a better choice. Like Poppy said, Water Arceus has BETTER OVERALL TYPE SYNERGY with Groudon than Palkia. More over it is far bulkier than Palkia. Granted, its main STAB gets gimped in sun but Water Arceus will be mostly functioning under rain and Flamethrower gets a pseudo STAB boost in Sun anyway.

So, I'm definitely going to agree with Poppy about using Water Arceus over Palkia due to reasons of bulk, reliable recovery, and better type synergy with Groudon. Also, let not forget, Waterceus has a lot more offensive presence in the longer run than Palkia thanks to Calm Mind. About, the mandatory Scarfer or revenge killer, its easy enough to use another one such as Zekrom or Terrakion but that actually depends on how the rest of the team pans out and what else we need to check and counter-check. So, that willl come in the later stage.