Uber Pokemon of the Week #5: Zekrom

[Zaon]

Approved by Furai

Uber ​

Pokemon Of The Week​

Hi, I am hosting the "Pokemon of the week" for Uber. You may have seen variants of this project in other tiers. Goals of this project are to help newer Uber players to learn informations about a specific Pokemon like what sets are viable and his effect in the metagame, create a discution of Uber players about their experiences with each Pokemon, how it best functions, his effect in the metagame and see why players would want to use or not use it. A new Pokemon will be post every Sunday.​

In this topic, discuss of the most popular and efficace sets, his roles in the metagame, who is countered and checked by this Pokemon, his counters and his checks, his disadvantages, his best teammates and how he fits into the metagame.​

Pokemon of the Week #1: Palkia

Palkia
Type: Water / Dragon
Base Stats: 90 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 150 SpA / 120 SpD / 100 Spe
Abilities: Pressure / Telepathy
Notable Moves:
- Spacial Rend
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Outrage
- Aqua Tail

Palkia has always been an excellent Pokemon in Uber. It has one of the best typing in Water/Dragon, giving it double resistances to Water and Fire and a nearly unresisted coverage. Palkia has also a massive 150 special attack stat, good 120 Attack stat, a decent bulk thanks to his 120 special defense stat and a high base 100 speed. Its typing combined with his decent special bulk make him the best Offensive counter to Kyogre. Another reason to use Palkia is its versatility, he can run both special and mixed set.

Pokemon of the Week #2: Mewtwo

Mewtwo
Type: Psychic
Base Stats: 106 HP / 110 Atk / 90 Def / 154 SpA / 90SpD / 130 Spe
Abilities: Pressure / Unnerve
Notable Moves:
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Light Screen
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball


Mewtwo, the original Uber is one of the most versatile Pokemon and one of the most fearsome Pokemon in Uber. It has a massive 154 special attack stat, a really high speed, good bulk and an excellent movepool. It also has Psystrike, a powerful STAB that allows Mewtwo to hurt hard special walls such as Chansey, Blissey, Kyogre, and Ho-Oh. Thanks to its movepool and stats, Mewtwo can 2HKO almost anything and is one of the best Special sweeper. Mewtwo can also work with a defensive set thanks his good bulk, access to a really fast Taunt and great support movepool with Light Screen, Will-O-Wisp and Taunt.

Pokemon of the Week #3: Rayquaza

Rayquaza
Type: Dragon / Flying
Base Stats: 105 HP / 150 Atk / 90 Def / 150 SpA / 90 SpD / 95 Spe
Abilities: Air Lock
Notable Moves:
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
- V-create
- Sword Dance
- Earthquake
- Overheat
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail

Since its release in 2003 Rayquaza has been a threatening Pokemon in Uber. Firstly, its 150 special attack and attack stats make him one of the most powerful Pokemon in the game. Also, it has an expansive movepool with moves like Dragon Dance, Sword Dance and ExtremeSpeed. Its Special Capacity is also great, allowing it to set-up on Kyogre when it is lock into a water move and outspeed some Pokemon that rely on Weather. Thanks to his movepool and offensive stats, Rayquaza can run both physical and mixed set and is one of the most fearsome Pokemon in Uber.

Pokemon of the Week #4: Lugia

Lugia
Type: Psychic / Flying
Base Stats: 106 HP / 90 Atk / 130 Def / 90 SpA / 154 SpD / 110 Spe
Abilities: Pressure / Multiscale
Notable Moves:
- Roost
- Toxic
- Reflect
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail
- Whirlwind
- Calm Mind
- Thunder
- Earth Power


Lugia, the great wall has been one of the best staller since its release thanks to its giant defensive stats with a good 106 HP stat, a great 130 Defense stat and a really hight 154 Special Defense stat. Its defensive stats make him one of the most resistance mixed wall, which is able to take both physical and special hits. Also, Lugia's speed is hight and allows it to outspeed a lot of Uber threats. Moreover, it got Multiscale so it can take hits even more easier.

The current Pokemon of the week is: Zekrom

Zekrom
Type: Dragon / Electric
Base Stats: 100 HP / 150 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SpA / 100 SpD / 90 Spe
Abilities: Teravolt
Notable Moves:

- Bolt Strike
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Draco Meteor
- Focus Blast
- Volt Switch
- Fusion Bolt
- Tailwind
- Hone Claws
- Substitute
- Roost

Since the begening of BW, Zekrom has been one of the most powerful Pokemon, its Attack is simply monstruous, its bulk is good and its typing is great both offensively and defensively, giving a few useful resistances and an excellent coverage. Its move Bolt Strike is extremly powerful and 2HKO almost anything that doesn't resist to it. Due t o its great offensive stats, Zekrom can be a Mixed Attacker which surprises its counter like Ferrothorn and Groudon, a powerful Bander that 2HKoes almost anything, a Scarfer which is one of the best revenge killer to CM users and a great Tailwind user.

 

[Hack]

Most seen as scarfer, however specs and lustrous orb sets are deadly as well.

Example:
Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Timid/Hasty Nature
- Spacial Rend/Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Fire Blast/Outrage
- Thunder

The standard scarf set work well in both sun and rain teams (IMO it is a little bit overshadowed on sun teams nowadays, because of Latias, who more reliably checks Kyogre). Fire Blast roasts Ferrothorn and Forretress while Spacial Rend revenges dragons like DD Ray, Zekrom and Reshiram.

What makes Palkia stand out from the other dragons in the tier is a combination of its typing, which allows it to check even specs Kyogre without any investment in special bulk, and its very fortunate speed tier, allowing it to outpace all uber dragons except Arceus-Dragon. Too bad it only ties with Salamence... But hey, it's not that common anyway.

Basically, its primary role in the meta is to revenge fast and frail sweepers thanks to its incredible coverage and to check Kyogre. It is very hard to switch into because it usually carries a move that you don't want to be taking, Fire Blast roasts Ferrothorn outside of rain etc. It's also a great lure, with Lustrous Orb or Haban Berry, it can easily feign a choice-set. Mixed sets are nice for taking out Chansey with Aqua Tail, but they also demand rain support.

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Aqua Tail
- Thunder

A nice lure in rain, Chansey still needs prior damage to be taken out.

4 Atk Lustrous Orb Palkia Aqua Tail vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey in rain: 297-351 (46.26 - 54.67%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO


What it checks: All slower dragons, Kyogre, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Shaymin, frail fast sweepers etc.

What checks it: Grass-Arceus (rain), Water Arceus (sun), Ferrothorn, Dialga. Predicting what move it will lock itself into is usually the best way to deal with choiced sets. Choice scarf sets also hate stall, especially sandstall.

Palkia works on both sun and rain teams, which makes its list of good partners long. Synergy-wise, Ferrothorn can take dragon-moves while Palkia can take fire-moves in return. An alternative way to teal with Kyogre is nice to have, Palkia will be worn down. Dialga, Giratina or said Ferrothorn can work. Entry hazards on your side of the field should be minimized because Palkia must usually switch a lot. Excadrill can spin and take dragon-moves. Keep Palkia away from sand, please. It does not approve the residual damage since it has no recovery.

 

[dice]

I've found Specs Palkia to be such a letdown since the release of Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W's Ice STAB really shines when running Specs, although it cannot check offensive Kyogre. If you're desperate for a Water Spout switch-in, Palkia is your go-to dude, but otherwise I'd definitely run a Kyurem-W.

 

[Salamence97]

I've found Specs Palkia to be such a letdown since the release of Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W's Ice STAB really shines when running Specs, although it cannot check offensive Kyogre. If you're desperate for a Water Spout switch-in, Palkia is your go-to dude, but otherwise I'd definitely run a Kyurem-W.

Specs Palkia is good, with or without the prescence of Kyurem-W. While its true Kyu-W has more power (at least on paper),
#1 Palkia is faster, those 5 extra speed points help it check base 95s like Kyu-W itself (and maybe non-scarfed Genesect?) as well as non-DD Rayquaza
#2 Under rain, that Hydro Pump is boosted to stupidly powerful levels (rivaling the damage output of Kyurem-W's Draco Meteor), and that's even more scary considering how few people expect it coming

In short, while Kyurem-W might be better as a Specs user in general, Specs Palkia is certainly worth a try if one is using rain.

 

[SonnySeal]

I tend to avoid any choice sets as I don't like to get locked into one move.

Seems like Palkia would fit in well on a Kyogre rain team?

Forgive me if I'm a little off, I'm new to the ubers metagame, I usually play UU or OU

 

[bygbyrd]

Palkia is a monster for rain teams. However, I think people are too quick to call Palkia an Ogre check as many fat whales carry Thunder Wave, and Thunder hurts Palkia. Modest Scarf Thunder can 2HKO after rocks and Ice Beam is a 3HKO even without a modest nature. Let us not forget that Palkia is venerable to every type of hazard as well. As a Kyogre check, Palkia faces competition with Latias, who isn't hit by spikes and has access to recovery.

 

[faint]

Palkia is a monster for rain teams. However, I think people are too quick to call Palkia an Ogre check as many fat whales carry Thunder Wave, and Thunder hurts Palkia. Modest Scarf Thunder can 2HKO after rocks and Ice Beam is a 3HKO even without a modest nature. Let us not forget that Palkia is venerable to every type of hazard as well. As a Kyogre check, Palkia faces competition with Latias, who isn't hit by spikes and has access to recovery.

We generally only refer to Palkia being a Kyogre check in regards to it's water attacks. Obviously Palkia should not be switching into a Thunder, but it's understandable if your opponent predicts the switch and uses it anyways. Also, Latias would be better classified as a counter to Kyogre, so I don't find it fair to compare Latias to Palkia since they fulfill different roles.

In regards to Mewtwo, it's definitely one of the most versatile mons in the game. But to be honest, I've never been a fan of 4 attack LO Mewtwo. I actually generally run the Standard CM set with Leftovers > Life Orb. Mewtwo is surprisingly bulky and I like being able to recover HP.

Taunt + CM Mewtwo is great against stall and the like, but the fact that it forces you to choose between 2 coverage moves out of what feels like an endless array of attacks is it's biggest problem. StallTwo can also be very troublesome if you're not expecting it. I ran it a lot back in D/P when Jibaku first introduced it to me and it was a lot of fun.

But yeah there's a lot to be said about Mewtwo. It just does it's job so well.

 

[polop]

In regards to Mewtwo, it's definitely one of the most versatile mons in the game. But to be honest, I've never been a fan of 4 attack LO Mewtwo. I actually generally run the Standard CM set with Leftovers > Life Orb. Mewtwo is surprisingly bulky and I like being able to recover HP.

Taunt + CM Mewtwo is great against stall and the like, but the fact that it forces you to choose between 2 coverage moves out of what feels like an endless array of attacks is it's biggest problem. StallTwo can also be very troublesome if you're not expecting it. I ran it a lot back in D/P when Jibaku first introduced it to me and it was a lot of fun.

But yeah there's a lot to be said about Mewtwo. It just does it's job so well.

I might be using it wrong, but whenever I use Mewtwo I'm generally underwhelmed at its performance X_X. I mean I guess its strong but its so difficult to get in, and with Genesect spamming U-turns everywhere getting a Calm Mind is so hard without having 70%+ of your HP chipped off in the process. I know Taunt + CM was effective last gen, but this gen introducing Dragon Tail made it a lot less effective for me when I used it (I did use Lefties > Life Orb in this scenario though). Since CM is so hard to pull off, I like the Life Orb + 4 attacks or Life Orb + 3 Attacks and Recover more. Stall Two is a cool stall breaker too, that is if you can avoid getting Dragon Tailed out into Toxic Spikes. Don't get me wrong though, with Tentacruel or Poison Arceus or reliable spin support (ironically this is the least reliable option) Stall Two a fine mon, capable of stomaching even Soul Dew Draco Meteors from Latios at full HP when Light Screen's not up!

Ironically I'm more terrified when I play against Mewtwo then when I use Mewtwo (which is why I've been saying I might be using it wrong throughout this post X_X). Mewtwo after a Calm Mind has very little to check it. The closest things that can come to countering it are Psychic Arceus, Dark Arceus (who btw completely outclasses Psychic Arceus IMO), and Specially Defensive Giratina-a. The first two get 2HKOed by Mewtwo's moves but they can KO Mewtwo before getting KOed. Specially Defensive Giratina-a doesn't care about +1 Ice Beam (well it'll do a good chunk) but it can phaze Mewtwo out and rest later. In theory this DOES mean it did its job as a wall breaker, but still... Checking Mewtwo is a lot easier though. Even though Mewtwo has that elitist base 130 Speed tier, its prey to Choice Scarf mons. While it gets a lot harder after Mewtwo uses Calm Mind, its still possible. Physical Choice Scarf users (Genesect, Garchomp, Zekrom, etc.) can OHKO Mewtwo before it OHKOes them. Switching them in is something else though, which is why they are "checks" and not "counters".

What sucks about Mewtwo the most though, in my opinion is, his Psychic typing. One of the most reliable ways to set something up in Ubers or get them a free switch is with Wobbufett. Wobbufett and Mewtwo share the same typing, meaning its a little harder to lure a move that Wobba can setup on then Mewtwo (this completely changes when Encoring setup moves though), the type-stacking isn't fun either, not to mention Psychic is a terrible defensive typing, scoring resistances to Fighting and Psychic type attacks! The most uncommon thing in Ubers (I dare you to look up Psychic Arceus's statistics)! It does give STAB to Mewtwo's Psystrike though, which I guess is cool considering it lets you 2HKO Chansey. Its coverage outside that is "ok" I guess, since it hits defense Mewtwo can now also defeat Fighting Arceus, Palkia, Reshiram, Ho-oh and Kyogre. Psychic STAB is something no one would dream of using if Mewtwo didn't get Psystrike though.

But Faint, since you have stated you can use Mewtwo successfully, I ask you how? Whenever I use it I end up being unimpressed. How did you support it to get such successful results :P?

 

[Tobes]

A Public Service Announcements to Ubers Ladderers:

Stop using Thunderbolt on Mewtwo.

Thunderbolt does literally nothing for Mewtwo that one of its standard moves can't do better.

252 SpA LO Mewtwo Thunderbolt vs 248 HP Ho-Oh: 50.6% - 59.8%
252 SpA LO Mewtwo Psystrike vs 248 HP Ho-Oh: 63.6% - 75.2%

Ho-Oh is pretty much the only common Flying-type in Ubers that isn't weak to Ice Beam, so the only instances you would consider using an Electric-type move is against Water-types. And in that case you're probably going to have access to Drizzle (whether your own or your opponent's), so you can use Thunder. And even then Thunder isn't very useful. Example:

252 SpA +1 LO Mewtwo Thunder vs 248 HP Kyogre: 106.7% - 126.1%
252 SpA +1 LO Mewtwo Psystrike vs 248 HP Kyogre: 97.8% - 115.4%

You almost always pick up the OHKO with Psystrike anyways. Thunder is barely defendable. Thunderbolt is not. Stop using it on Mewtwo. Stop using it on Genesect. Stop using it on pretty much anything except

• Electric Arceus
• SmashPass Recipient Dialga

End list.


OK Now that that's out of the way, LO CM is generally what I see the most of, and with good reason. It's pretty damn good at what it does and has quite a bit of power. The moves of the set are generally pretty easy to decide, something like:

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Pressure
Timid 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere / Flamethrower
- Calm Mind

With Fire Blast being the especially preferred move in sun due to pseudo-STAB. Aura Sphere was perfectly defendable pre-Genesect, but given Sect's (and Ferrothorn's) prominence, Fire-type moves have become more important. By the way, never put the 4 excess EVs in Special Defense. Genesect gets an Attack boost from Download if you do, allowing Scarf Genesect to smash you. No competent Genesect runs Bug Buzz on a Scarf set in Ubers. Don't be negligent about something that could turn out to be really important.

 

[polop]

Mewtwo @ Life Orb
Pressure
Timid 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Psystrike
- Ice Beam
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere / Flamethrower
- Calm Mind

One thing not mentioned is why people use Aura Sphere. Its not just because Fire Blast is reliant on sunny weather (and when it is its super strong! A 180 BP attack coming from that massive attack stat X_X), its because its Mewtwo's only way of bypassing Tyranitar.

Should Mewtwo forgo Ice Beam, not only will it be walled by Tyranitar, its going to be unable to switch and killed thanks to its access to Pursuit. Besides the only thing you miss out on is hitting Gene / Ferro / Forry / Psychic types (as long as they're in the sun) harder, but granted, I will agree with Tobes when he says that the current state of the Ubers meta means Fire Blast is more important :P.

 

[Bossness]

By the way, never put the 4 excess EVs in Defense. Genesect gets an Attack boost from Download if you do, allowing Scarf Genesect to smash you. No competent Genesect runs Bug Buzz on a Scarf set in Ubers. Don't be negligent about something that could turn out to be really important.

This is wrong. You should always put the 4 excess EVs in Defense. Genesect gets a Special Attack boost from download if you do. You can place the remaining 4 EVs in HP too! When something has equal defenses, Download will give Genesect a Special Attack boost.

 

[Focus]

I was a big fan of CM / Recover back before Genesect was introduced, but nowadays it usually appreciates the wide attacking coverage much more than stomaching multiple hits. Mewtwo's high speed and sweet movepool are nice to just hit things hard, and can act like a late-game cleaner. Shadow Ball is an option to smack opposing Mewtwo that think they can beat you in a Calm Mind war, but Ice Beam is generally far superior because of its fantastic coverage. Aura Sphere is only for Tyranitar and Dialga, but those two Pokemon can be pretty annoying if left unchecked.

By the way, never put the 4 excess EVs in Defense. Genesect gets an Attack boost from Download if you do, allowing Scarf Genesect to smash you. No competent Genesect runs Bug Buzz on a Scarf set in Ubers. Don't be negligent about something that could turn out to be really important.

Sorry if I'm having a blonde moment, but doesn't Download raise the attacking stat that hits the opponent's lower defense stat? Putting 4 EVs in Special Defense seems to be the thing never to do, because then Genesect's Attack gets boosted, letting it ruin your team's day with a boosted U-turn.

...ninja'd

 

[Theorymon]

Maybe its just me, but lately, Genesect has made me appreciate walltwo a bit more than usual. Yeah I know Fire Blast on the switch is a death sentence already, but crippling Genesect with WoW is still pretty useful!

Anyways, I actually still use Aura Sphere all the time for this reason: LO Psystrike does 44.5% - 52.3% to Naive Genesect, a 2HKO after Stealth Rock. So sure, I lose the ability to OHKO it, but Genesect can only really directly switch into Mewtwo once! Fire Blast is easier to fit in now I guess since OHKOing Genesect, Forretress, and Ferrothorn is extremely useful, but destroying Dialga and Tyranitar still tends to be useful enough to the point where I seriously consider Aura Sphere (ESPECIALLY for Sand weak teams).

 

[blitzlefan]

A late game sweeper I've seen more often is scarf Mewtwo spamming Psystrike. Ridiculously powerful and I think the one of the best scarfers (if you only look at speed for criteria). Easily capable of sweeping weakened teams especially as Dark is kind of a rare typing in Ubers, and typically the fastest scarfer on most opposing teams is Palkia (sometimes Skymin though but it's still outsped by Timid Mewtwo).

 

[Bossness]

Rayquaza, in my opinion, has fallen out of grace in ths generation. As a sweeper, it faces stiff competition from the best pokemon in the game: Arceus. Rayquaza's bulk does not do it any favors. It will usually lose over 50% of its health from most neutral hits. Rayquaza has always underperformed in most of the teams I used it in. I could not understand why I would use it over other Dragons - Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-Oriin, Lati@s. Unlike Rayquaza, who is one-dimentonal, i.e, an offensive threat, the other Dragons can greatly contribute to the team's defensive synergy.

The release of Genesect and Multiscale Lugia is the nail in the coffin for Rayquaza. Genesect naturally outspeeds Rayquaza and can revenge kill all its sets. Rayquaza Mixed set can't do anything that a simple Life Orb SubRoost Ho-Oh cant do.

You are free to disregard what I have said. After all, our experience in using a Pokemon is likely to be different.

@Mr.lol yeah good post. I am not going to try to refute anything you said, but Rayquaza has underperformed in most of my matches as, like you already have said in this thread, Mewtwo has been underwhelming(slightly?) for you.
Let me make myself more clear: A team consists of 6 slots and I can't find an ideal spot for Rayquaza.

 

[polop]

Rayquaza, in my opinion, has fallen out of grace in ths generation. As a sweeper, it faces stiff competition from the best pokemon in the game: Arceus. Rayquaza's bulk does not do it any favors. It will usually lose over 50% of its health from most neutral hits. Rayquaza has always underperformed in most of the teams I used it in. I could not understand why I would use it over other Dragons - Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-Oriin, Lati@s. Unlike Rayquaza, who is one-dimentonal, i.e, an offensive threat, the other Dragons can greatly contribute to the team's defensive synergy.

The release of Genesect and Multiscale Lugia is the nail in the coffin for Rayquaza. Genesect naturally outspeeds Rayquaza and can revenge kill all its sets. Rayquaza Mixed set can't do anything that a simple Life Orb SubRoost Ho-Oh cant do.

You are free to disregard what I have said. After all, our experience in using a Pokemon is likely to be different.

Wait what ?_? Rayquaza still is a powerful sweeper with access to wall breaking abilities matched by few, if any, pokes in the game! Multiscale Lugia gets OHKOed after Stealth Rock by Draco Meteor + ExtremeSpeed. Those lacking heavy defense investment face getting OHKOed by Dragon Dance boosted Outrage after Stealth Rock!

Genesect is pretty big, but its not impossible to play around. Tailwind lets Rayquaza pounce right around. Using Thunder Wave or Substitute lets you land a huge hit on Genesect which prevents it from revenging you. Scarf Palkia was a huge issue earlier, but that didn't stop this guy from dropping significantly in usage did it? You could even use Yache / Haban Berry if your desperate ;_;. Not to mention Gene has to switch in on Dragon Dance to kill Rayquaza, if it switches in Draco Meteor or Fire Blast or Earthquake or V-Create its as good as dead. It can't handle SD Rayquaza either, who literally mauls the bug with ExtremeSpeed (granted it needs to be weakened a good bit before being OHKOed).

Rayquaza's bulk doesn't do it favors, the only one who has any favors getting done for it is Arceus, but that guy lacks Dragon STAB. It lacks that Draco Meteor. The ability to destroy Ferrothorn in rain, boost its speed... they don't even have the same counters seeing as Dragon Dance Rayquaza smashes right past all of Extremekillers. Under the thinking a sweeper needs bulk to setup on its own would make Darkrai (although this guy does has Dark Void to help) and Mewtwo completely unviable, but that's not the case is it?

It doesn't contribute to synergy but it boasts things other Dragons could only dream off. Can Dialga fry Ferrothorn in rain? Can Palkia boost its Speed outside of Choice Scarf? Can Palkia even beat Kingdra in the rain? Can Latios spam +1 Outrage that OHKO 252 HP Arceus forms barring Steel who gets OHKOed by Earthquake anyway after Stealth Rock? I will agree life has gotten hard for it, but it is definetly usable.

./endrant.

EDIT: @Anikrahman, all right so you just can't get it to work like how Mewtwo fails for me. I know how ya feel then lol :P. If your having trouble finding a spot for Rayquaza I recommend using it on a team that wants a sweeper (it provides an easy win condition IMO), or a wall breaker, or both (Mixed Dancer).

 

[Hack]

Rayquaza is pokemon I have always underperformed with. Mispredicting gravely with the boosting sets led me to use CBquaza, but it kinda didn't do much favour because, well, it is choiced and therfore my opponents could play around it. Genesect also took a dump on it. Too put it like this: I'd rather use E-killer for SD and Ho-oh for breaking down Ferrothorn/luring in Groudon.

However, against me, I has been very good. It makes me shit myself, no matter what team I carry. It forced me to use t wave on Ferrothorn and ice beam on my cm water Arceus (who I'd really like refresh on). I pretty much use Genesect on as many teams as I can as well. It literally scares the crap out of me.

 

[blitzlefan]

Early to mid game, Rayquaza underperforms, but dear god, if it gets the chance to DD late game, when its checks are sufficiently weakened, Rayquaza can tear through teams. It's the reason I run Ice Beam and not Dark Pulse on my Fightceus. However, base 95 Spe is a little disappointing, with Scarf Kyurem-W and Scarf Palkia everywhere.

 

[Bryce]

Too put it like this: I'd rather use E-killer for SD and Ho-oh for breaking down Ferrothorn/luring in Groudon.

lol no,SD Rayquaza is not similar to SD Arceus.SD Rayquaza has the ability to blast past walls such as Lugia with Rocks support,and pick of weakened faster threats with +2 LO Espeed.While Arceus can set up and clean up much better than rayquaza,it cannot get past sturdy walls such Giratina-A,Lugia,Def Groudon without getting crippled by burn,poison or phazed away.

And Rayquaza has plenty of advantages as a wall breaker over Ho-oh ,Rayquaza'a sheer power makes it almost impossible to wall.SD set and Mixed sets can tear apart plenty of defensive cores that Ho-oh has trouble getting past,while DD set has the ability to boost it's speed and can still get through walls with hazard support.Rayquaza also has the ability to act as an offensive check to swift swimmers and Excadrill as well as not let sun and rain mess up the power of it's moves.

 

[Theorymon]

Wait what ?_? Rayquaza still is a powerful sweeper with access to wall breaking abilities matched by few, if any, pokes in the game! Multiscale Lugia gets OHKOed after Stealth Rock by Draco Meteor + ExtremeSpeed. Those lacking heavy defense investment face getting OHKOed by Dragon Dance boosted Outrage after Stealth Rock!

Genesect is pretty big, but its not impossible to play around. Tailwind lets Rayquaza pounce right around. Using Thunder Wave or Substitute lets you land a huge hit on Genesect which prevents it from revenging you. Scarf Palkia was a huge issue earlier, but that didn't stop this guy from dropping significantly in usage did it? You could even use Yache / Haban Berry if your desperate ;_;. Not to mention Gene has to switch in on Dragon Dance to kill Rayquaza, if it switches in Draco Meteor or Fire Blast or Earthquake or V-Create its as good as dead. It can't handle SD Rayquaza either, who literally mauls the bug with ExtremeSpeed (granted it needs to be weakened a good bit before being OHKOed).

Rayquaza's bulk doesn't do it favors, the only one who has any favors getting done for it is Arceus, but that guy lacks Dragon STAB. It lacks that Draco Meteor. The ability to destroy Ferrothorn in rain, boost its speed... they don't even have the same counters seeing as Dragon Dance Rayquaza smashes right past all of Extremekillers. Under the thinking a sweeper needs bulk to setup on its own would make Darkrai (although this guy does has Dark Void to help) and Mewtwo completely unviable, but that's not the case is it?

It doesn't contribute to synergy but it boasts things other Dragons could only dream off. Can Dialga fry Ferrothorn in rain? Can Palkia boost its Speed outside of Choice Scarf? Can Palkia even beat Kingdra in the rain? Can Latios spam +1 Outrage that OHKO 252 HP Arceus forms barring Steel who gets OHKOed by Earthquake anyway after Stealth Rock? I will agree life has gotten hard for it, but it is definetly usable.

./endrant.

I agree with most of what you said about Rayquaza's selling points, but funny you mention those Rayquaza sets... I'm not very fond of Twave, and I haven't used Sub Rayquaza this gen... but Tailwind is pretty interesting. I thought it was just a cool gimmick when Tobes was talking about it a while ago, but I have to admit, I've found it much more useful than it used to be just because its a massive "FUCK YOU" to Genesect, in addition to giving the team a bit of support. Here's the set from project Ubers.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Air Lock
Naughty 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
- Tailwind
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast

This Rayquaza is a bit of a mix-and-match of the Dragon Dance and Mix sets. Early game, it plays like a standard MixQuaza, nailing things with Draco Meteor for quick kills and then retreating. Lategame, it serves as a cleaner, using Tailwind to set up an Outrage sweep (hence the maximum Attack investment and Naughty nature). The EV spread guarantees that you outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion with Tailwind in effect, but you can also of course opt for 252 Spe Naive so that Rayquaza is faster than things like maximum Speed Dialga early in the game.

Now, why would you use this over MixDDRayquaza? For one, Speed. Tailwind Rayquaza outspeeds very important checks to Dragon Dance Rayqauza, the most prominent being Choice Scarf Palkia, and to a much lesser extent Choice Scarf Terrakion. Additionally, it does not require as much EV investment to do this, meaning that it doesn't have to worry as much about splitting EVs, and can therefore perform its mix role relatively more effectively. I suppose the argument can be made that 252 SpA MixDDRay could work better, but it doesn't outspeed Palkia and has a weaker initial Outrage, which can be a big factor in stall match-ups. But the real reason to consider this set over MixDDRay is that Tailwind also affects Rayquaza's teammates. Mixed Dialga and Choice Specs Kyogre are suddenly far more intimidating when nothing outspeeds them. Even if Rayquaza fails in its lategame sweep, there's a decent chance its teammates can pick up where it left off.

I tend to use V-create over Fire Blast though, and sometimes I use it with standard Mixquaza evs because I am a total speed freak. Of course, this won't sweep like Dragon Dance Rayquaza can, but it can be a cool niche set if you REALLY hate Genesect, and Tailwind can be a nice surprise move in general. As for normal sets though, Mixquaza is still pretty great. LO Draco Meteor actually does 68-80% to Naive Genesect (or 60-71% to Hasty), and with Stealth Rock, it's very easy to get it into the KO range of ExtremeSpeed, since Naive takes 19-23% from 4 Atk ExtremeSpeed (Hasty also takes 21-25%). I also have to admit that Genesect has been a pretty good teammate for mixquaza as well, just because Genesect's U-turn tends to attract stuff like Dialga and Giratina. Dialga has to be weakened of course, has it takes 67-80% from Draco Meteor, but Giratina obviously gets owned by that! Yes I realize that in this case, White Kyurem can do that except hit Dialga even harder, but I tend to find mixed Rayquaza easier to fit on my teams.

The other reason I still use Rayquaza is of course, the mighty V-create. I used to just use it on Mixquaza and SD Quaza... but honestly I even use it on Dragon Dance Rayquaza now. Yes... I understand that V-create tends to go against the entire point of boosting your Speed, but having a base 180 power attack that DOESN'T lock you in is something I still find extremely useful! It's also nice for when people try to wear you down with switching games from say... a Steel-type to Kyogre, since Kyogre still takes a pretty hefty amount from boosted V-creates! However, if you want to use V-create on DD Rayquaza, I advise using it with ExtremeSpeed, since this way you can still pick off weakened stuff like a low health Palkia after you lose your Speed.

As for people who find Rayquaza outclassed by Normal Arceus... while Normal Arceus certainly does better vs offensive teams, Rayquaza can still break through quite a few mons that Normal Arceus has issues with, such as Giratina, Skarmory, and slow Lugia in the case of SD Rayquaza. To be honest, I often find myself pairing the two together, because both are dangerous sweepers that can save my ass in emergencies with priority attacks! Also, I have to admit that sometimes when Genesect revenges my Rayquaza, I tend to like that, because I usually pair Rayquaza with Wobbuffet to help it set up, and a Scarf Ice Beam usually means I'm going to trap it bar the nasty freeze hax or having an extremely weakened Wobbuffet. Thanks to Custap Berry, I tend to revenge it now even Wobbuffet is near death too :P.

On a side note though, because Salamence got Moxie + DD + Outrage legal and is faster than Genesect, I do sometimes feel like that's actually competing with Rayquaza for my teamslots sometimes. However, Rayquaza's Air Lock, priority, and V-create are huge selling points to me anyways, so I still use Rayquaza a lot.

So overall, Genesect sure as hell isn't doing Rayquaza any favors beyond being a powerful mon to U-turn to, but it's still one of the most dangerous Pokemon to face in the game!

 

[polop]

I agree with most of what you said about Rayquaza's selling points, but funny you mention those Rayquaza sets... I'm not very fond of Twave, and I haven't used Sub Rayquaza this gen... but Tailwind is pretty interesting. I thought it was just a cool gimmick when Tobes was talking about it a while ago, but I have to admit, I've found it much more useful than it used to be just because its a massive "FUCK YOU" to Genesect, in addition to giving the team a bit of support. Here's the set from project Ubers.

I posted Para Dancer and Sub Dancer on Project Ubers earlier X_X. Thunder Wave + SD actually helps out a lot since you can cripple stuff coming into you then proceed to sweep later(well so long as it ISN'T Groudon (but you can even go mix then...), its like Paradancer Groudon, except with Dragon STAB, the tendency to lure in Scarf Gene, Scarf Kia, and Lugia / bulky Arceus forms in exchange for a lot less physical defense. Substitute + Dragon Dance is pretty useful too, when coupled with Wobbufett support, Rayquaza can easily get a free Substitute to scout what tried coming into it, use the Substitute to get a Dragon Dance up if its something it can outspeed after 1 DD, or it can just cripple what came into it. It eases up your ability to predict a lot.

On a side note though, because Salamence got Moxie + DD + Outrage legal and is faster than Genesect, I do sometimes feel like that's actually competing with Rayquaza for my teamslots sometimes. However, Rayquaza's Air Lock, priority, and V-create are huge selling points to me anyways, so I still use Rayquaza a lot

Mix Dancer also allows Rayquaza to boast a strong Draco Meteor that can destroy Groudon which Salamence lacks. Samething with Mixquaza. Don't get me wrong, Salamence can go mix, but it can't OHKO Groudon with the same Draco Meteor.

 

[pwnage77]

if i may share my opinion. i only use two sets of rayquaza: swords dance and mixed set.

i agree with the guy up there who said that SDquaza be paired with arceus normal (sorry can't quote as i am using my phone). the idea of using the two must be a little redundant to some but please do note that the two perform very different roles. rayquaza has a higher attack stat but has a weaker extremespeed and is slow while arceus is the exact opposite. so you might just throw out arceus first to sweep. wrong. i would go out for rayquaza first because it has a smaller number of checks. all things that wall arceus die to rayquaza. well it's like the double dragon strategy between quaza and mence except you use extremespeed. so all in short terms, wall break with one pokemon and sweep with the other.


as for mixquaza, this is where the double dragon strategy comes in best. as usual, rayquaza's main role is to destroy walls to open up a sweep with the other pokemon.

so it still may seem that rayquaza is outclassed by some of the pokemon who can sport the same role but fear not, it's wallbreaking prowess is still unrivaled.

 

[polop]

Lugia's great defenses and access to reliable recovery in the form of Roost make him a sturdy wall, notably the best counter to Rayquaza that exists too. Couple this with Pressure allowing him to PP stall Stone Edges, Draco Meteors, Hydro Pumps, Water Spouts, Spacial Rends (etc.) or Multiscale allowing him to boost his defenses through the roof and suddenly tank Specs Spouts, and its no surprise that his usage rivals that of Dialga and Ferrothorn.

Lugia has one flaw though, IT IS WEAK X_X. No seriously, it relies on a phazing move just to phaze stuff out, it can't touch the enemy meaning that stuff like Forretress can easily set up on it. Stuff with Taunt can shut Lugia lacking Dragon Tail down. Anything that can stop Lugia from phazing or using Whirlwind can and will setup on it. It can try to assuage this issue with a Calm Mind set (which I should add it does very well thanks to Multiscale easing up the ability to get Calm Minds), but then you invest in Speed and Special Attack and loose a lot of your walling prowess. That and even at +6 it fails to 2HKO Chansey. It doesn't get any good STAB moves outside of Aeroblast, whose low PP means it'll be pp stalled. It can use Ice Beam, but its so weak. This means the only REAL way Lugia can ever damage anything is by using entry hazards and shuffling stuff. It would be cool if it could do this as a Ghost though to block Rapid Spin, because every spinner can use Rapid Spin on Lugia with little to no worry. Its typing leaves a good bit to be desired. Flying-Psychic brings few notable resists outside that of Ground and leaves you weak to Ice Beams and Thunders that fly everywhere. This does let you wall Groudon but that Psychic typing sucks.

tl;dr, Lugia = bulky wall that can't hurt anything. Part Psychic-type sucks, it risks being setup if its not spamming Whirlwind, and it needs hazards to hurt stuff.

Also just saying Pressure > Multiscale IMO at walling. Half the time its near impossible to prevent SR from going up and pp stalling stuff like Spacial Rend is hilarious. Multiscale > Pressure if your going to be doing something like OU Parashuffler nite or running CM though, well that's my opinion at least...

Oh and running Lugia without a spin blocker is the equivalent of using a sitting duck against most teams lol.

Does anyone else have opinions?

 

[Daggerfall]

Well, I had a funny experience with Lugia. When one used Icy Wind (face it, Ice Beam isn't going to get you almost anything) on my Deo-A, it only did about 60% or so damage to it. That's how weak it is. I'd like to say it's a good wall, but I've never actually had any problems dealing with the thing. My teams are also focused on being offensive most of the time, so I've never put it on any of my teams.

 

[blitzlefan]

I personally love Lugia very much. IMO, it's very hard to for me to bring it down, without just Super-effective moves or CB/CS/LO. I typically run multiple scarfers (1-3)to maximize on offensive pressure, so getting all my neutral STAB moves' PP deleted is a pain in the ass. That is, until I found CS Zekrom (OH GOD YES) and LO Palkia (OH GOD YES). However, Lugia running Toxic/Roost/Whirlwind/Substitute was the worst thing to try to kill EVER without resorting to Stone Edge people (eg Groudon) who would usually get poisoned and fall to Lugia though. Honestly the BEST most obnoxious set to run on Lugia (with Multiscale too).