U-turn Discussion and Poll

[Houndoomsday]

@curtains i dont think you get the utility of uturn

if you stay in and take the hit as they u-turn out, they switch into a counter. if you switch pokemon as they u-turn out, they switch into a counter. the main argument against uturn is the opponent has basically no way to maintain momentum versus a uturn

with that being said, i cannot see uturn being ban-worthy. good prediction on the 'victims' part can punish a careless uturn (predicting which mon they will send in after a uturn and using the appropriate move), and outspeeding a uturner is another option. in addition entry hazards punish frequent uturning, as every switch with a layer of spikes will add up. toss in sandstorm or toxic damage and the frequent u-turns are on a fast clock.

uturning, is without a doubt, a very good move. it basically guarantees a player momentum, but it also has several drawbacks that need to be minimized for it to be effect. entry hazards are obviously the main culprit, but lets not forget on the turn you uturn you hit with a base 70 attack, while the opponent utilize much stronger moves. basically many times a uturn sacrifices damage for momentum. does a uturn usually pay off? yes, but i would argue that it does not pay off in a banworthy way.

 

[Shiruba]

I hate discussing things so generally without any specifics so lets actually see which viable pokemon have uturn....

Gliscor
Hydregon
Celebi
Lando
Scizor
jirachi
infernape

Whoaaa I didn't even know that half of those Pokemon got U-Turn. I think that's a thing, too - just because a Pokemon has it doesn't mean it necessarily uses it. If it was so great to be broken, you'd probably want to use it just about everywhere, yeah?

Also brings up a point - once you bring in your next Pokemon, it's not like you're invulnerable. You might, in fact, get shat upon via a surprise from the one you switched in on - say your Jirachi U-Turns on a Nidoking, and you bring in your Gyarados on the predicted Fire Blast... Then you get the biggest 'fuck you' as the foe uses Thunderbolt and your Gyarados drops. U-Turn can be played around pretty easily if needed. Not to say it's a bad move - far from it - but it doesn't seem broken to me.

 

[Honus]

curtains im like 97% sure you just post in this forum to disagree with any good posts that are made

I don't know if you know this but you don't have to switch every time a counter comes in. Also you don't have to switch to a counter every time one of your opponents pokemon is already in. Its called not being predictable....

Yes but what if there's a huge risk? If it's an Infernape vs. Scizor, do you just keep scizor in? What if you need it to check something later in the game? The Infernape user has a scenario in favor of him, he attacks Scizor and it dies, or U-Turns out and keeps the momentum as you go to your infernape check/counter/whatever just by virtue of clicking a move and the fact that you're in an incredibly risky scenario. You say you hate discussing in general terms but that whole "stay in and take a hit" argument crumbles when you present a specific scenario like i just did

 

[Curtains]

@curtains i dont think you get the utility of uturn

if you stay in and take the hit as they u-turn out, they switch into a counter. if you switch pokemon as they u-turn out, they switch into a counter. the main argument against uturn is the opponent has basically no way to maintain momentum versus a uturn

I still made a move..... Now whatever that move was is up in the air but if it is a move that can potentially do 20-30% or put on a status or leech seed then that is a successful trade for me.... One pitiful non stab (most likely) damage u-turn for some extra information on two pokemon and extra damage on the incoming pokemon + i have hazards up for the next the u-turner comes in . Sweet.

curtains im like 97% sure you just post in this forum to disagree with any good posts that are made

not true i give props alot on this forum. And most of the time i agree with the winner of the poll on each topic. Im just not a band wagoner. It is the case of the silent majority as stated by the polls.

Yes but what if there's a huge risk? If it's an Infernape vs. Scizor, do you just keep scizor in

Dude most of the time you don't keep a scizor in on a infernape. Unless you were spamming superpower or bullet punch and you really don't need your scizor and just want to get some residual damage then thats when you leave it in. Then you can bring in something else to regain the momentum if he does fire move you.

 

[Honus]

Dude most of the time you don't keep a scizor in on a infernape.

no shit, which is why

How about just staying in and taking a hit for once.... I don't know if you know this but you don't have to switch every time a counter comes in

isn't a way to go about combatting U-Turn

The risk of keeping scizor in is too high so the ape user knows this and uses uturn to and gets momentum, there's the whole argument of "don't let this scenario happen" to you, but if Scizor even fires off one bpunch then Infernape can come in on Scizor and then you have to [more often than not] switch out Scizor which is when infernape uses uturn and gets momentum back

 

[ShootingStarmie]

"curtains im like 97% sure you just post in this forum to disagree with any good posts that are made"

Lol'd

But in all seriousness, Curtains, if you're going to assume hazards are on one side of the field, you need to assume it on your side of the filed too. The U-turn user isn't just hitting you with a U-turn, they're also gaining infomation on what you switch into the Pokemon that uses U turn, along with you taking entry hazards damage, and gaining momentum, which will then lead you to probably switching again and taking more entry hazards damage..."Sweet"

 

[Curtains]

no shit, which is why


isn't a way to go about combatting U-Turn

The risk of keeping scizor in is too high so the ape user knows this and uses uturn to and gets momentum, there's the whole argument of "don't let this scenario happen" to you, but if Scizor even fires off one bpunch then Infernape can come in on Scizor and then you have to [more often than not] switch out Scizor which is when infernape uses uturn and gets momentum back

Ok. keep it moving and keep battling are you gonna just quit because he has a counter (which you should have seen in team preview ) in on your pokemon. You are gonna lose momentum when playing pokemon. It is impossible to keep it because everytime you kill an opposing pokemon he/she gets the momentum back automatically unless he is under a sweep. That is why i hinted at just staying in sometimes if momentum is your concern. You have to make decisions and sometimes those decisions will be primarily based on your opponents mood.... But you still have to calculate all options and be prepared for each problem you have.

 

[MikeDawg]

You aren't looking at it from an "in practice" perspective, curtains. Unless you have like rough skin+rocky helmet or for some reason your team has no other answer to whatever is in front ot you (in which case that is a teambuilding issue, not a u-turn one), the U-turn player ALWAYS has the advantage.

Imagine Lando vs Jirachi.

Lando can do 2 things: EP (obvious) or U-turn (less so). Jirachi can do two things (depending on set): Switch out (obvious) or stay in to u-turn or body slam (less so).

It seems like this is a 50/50 scenario (argument seem familiar? That's because it is. Whether youmre talking about infernape or lando or jirachi or hydreigon or whatever, this case is quite common with u-turn) but in reality, things play out differently. There's a 50% chance that the u-turn user either doesn't u-turn when it should have and loses momentum (which is irrelevant since we are talking about u-turn) or u-turns when it shouldn't have, does a bit of damage, and switches to a pokemon that can also handle jirachi. So worst case scenario, a teensy bit of momentum is lost (if that loss was on something slower, u-turn prevents this loss anyway). The other 50% chance, though. Is that the U-turner does u-turn on the switch and gets huge momentum or it doesn' u-turn and straight up kills the opposing poke.

So tiny momentum loss is the worst outcome.
KOing a poke is the best.

It is very clear that the pressure is always against the non-u-turner's side.

The best part about this? Keeping jirachi as an example, you can substitute for lando hydreigon, infernape, gliscor, flygon, lando-t, etc and the situation is EXACTLY the same.

So u-turn has this effect NOT ONLY with arguably broken pokes (lando, torn-t, etc.) but with practically ANY poke. So if it is grounds for it being broken (even partially), then the "let's just ban the abusers" argument is invalid as practically anything can be a proper abuser.

 

[Shiruba]

I agree, to a point, but admittedly, that's not the only thing you could say a person always has the advantage in.

Say, for example, your opponent's steels are all gone, and you get your Specs Latios in. Unless they have a Blissey or some specially defensive tank, your opponent can kiss something goodbye. True, you'll be forced to switch out after using it, but unless your opponent sweeps you after setting up [which you should have the foresight to see in advance], you can also get something in and work from there. It's not the best example, but you can take advantage of a predicted U-Turn as well as a forced switch from Draco Meteor in certain situations. Cherrypicking isn't helping anyone. If it did, we'd see a lot of Scarf Celebi floating around, no?

 

[Halcyon.]

You aren't looking at it from an "in practice" perspective, curtains. Unless you have like rough skin+rocky helmet or for some reason your team has no other answer to whatever is in front ot you (in which case that is a teambuilding issue, not a u-turn one), the U-turn player ALWAYS has the advantage.

Imagine Lando vs Jirachi.

Lando can do 2 things: EP (obvious) or U-turn (less so). Jirachi can do two things (depending on set): Switch out (obvious) or stay in to u-turn or body slam (less so).

It seems like this is a 50/50 scenario (argument seem familiar? That's because it is. Whether youmre talking about infernape or lando or jirachi or hydreigon or whatever, this case is quite common with u-turn) but in reality, things play out differently. There's a 50% chance that the u-turn user either doesn't u-turn when it should have and loses momentum (which is irrelevant since we are talking about u-turn) or u-turns when it shouldn't have, does a bit of damage, and switches to a pokemon that can also handle jirachi. So worst case scenario, a teensy bit of momentum is lost (if that loss was on something slower, u-turn prevents this loss anyway). The other 50% chance, though. Is that the U-turner does u-turn on the switch and gets huge momentum or it doesn' u-turn and straight up kills the opposing poke.

So tiny momentum loss is the worst outcome.
KOing a poke is the best.

It is very clear that the pressure is always against the non-u-turner's side.

The best part about this? Keeping jirachi as an example, you can substitute for lando hydreigon, infernape, gliscor, flygon, lando-t, etc and the situation is EXACTLY the same.

So u-turn has this effect NOT ONLY with arguably broken pokes (lando, torn-t, etc.) but with practically ANY poke. So if it is grounds for it being broken (even partially), then the "let's just ban the abusers" argument is invalid as practically anything can be a proper abuser.

Woah, wait a minute, this is very flawed. You just said that you only lose a teensy bit of momentum by U-turning on Jirachi, but that's not true at all. Your Landorus just took 22.5% damage and you risk having your switchin paralyzed or U-turned on itself, making you lose momentum yourself. I think that's a pretty significant loss in that situation. Yeah, Landorus has the advantage in that it should just Earth power because any check that might come into that can just be fucked by Tyranitar next turn, but that has nothing to do with U-turn.

 

[Honus]

Woah, wait a minute, this is very flawed. You just said that you only lose a teensy bit of momentum by U-turning on Jirachi, but that's not true at all. Your Landorus just took 22.5% damage and you risk having your switchin paralyzed or U-turned on itself, making you lose momentum yourself. I think that's a pretty significant loss in that situation. Yeah, Landorus has the advantage in that it should just Earth power because any check that might come into that can just be fucked by Tyranitar next turn, but that has nothing to do with U-turn.

22.5% on big L and jirachi's impending move is still significantly less of a blow than your Jirachi eating an earth power

I agree, to a point, but admittedly, that's not the only thing you could say a person always has the advantage in.

Say, for example, your opponent's steels are all gone, and you get your Specs Latios in. Unless they have a Blissey or some specially defensive tank, your opponent can kiss something goodbye. True, you'll be forced to switch out after using it, but unless your opponent sweeps you after setting up [which you should have the foresight to see in advance], you can also get something in and work from there. It's not the best example, but you can take advantage of a predicted U-Turn as well as a forced switch from Draco Meteor in certain situations. Cherrypicking isn't helping anyone. If it did, we'd see a lot of Scarf Celebi floating around, no?

How can you get an advantage of a predicted U-Turn? You're opponent is going to go to a Pokemon that beats whatever mon took the U-Turn, you can't get an advantage off of a counter or check to your poke. I re-read this post a few times thinking I read it wrong but this seems pretty ridiculous, what 'situations' could you take advantage of a predicted U-Turn? Are you referring to the ones like Halcyon of Light listed where there's a far bigger risk to stay in on the U-Turn [which is a 50-50 where you're usually fucked if you guess wrong].
--------------------
overall though this whole discussion in the thread is kind of becoming a circlejerk because a lot of this depends on scenario [maybe you would keep jira in if you didnt need it] but in most cases you do need most of your mons and you are faced with the scenario to keep them in and risk death or let your opponent gain momentum, which basically sums up the 'u-turn is a broken move' argument; maybe that's not enough to fit the criteria of broken for some people but it seems kind of ridiculous to me. in all honesty though i really don't care if anything happens, which it shouldn't because this tier is filled with a ton of broken shit still and people are sitting here discussing banning sr and other moves, i realize this is probably a 180 but i mean discussing this is kind of pointless given the circumstances and the fact that both sides of the argument have been stated and restated and each side is pretty unmoving

 

[Halcyon.]

22.5% on big L and jirachi's impending move is still significantly less of a blow than your Jirachi eating an earth power

That's what i'm saying. That's why the better move is to Earth Power, since you care very little about something switching into that, but you should care more about taking almost a quarter of your health (not to mention an extra 12.5% when you inevitably switch back in) and then also having to deal with Jirachi's move. It seems to me that this has more to do with Landorus being broken than it does with U-turn. Earth Power is the move that's causing the problem in this situation, not U-turn, in my opinion.

 

[Shiruba]

How can you get an advantage of a predicted U-Turn? You're opponent is going to go to a Pokemon that beats whatever mon took the U-Turn, you can't get an advantage off of a counter or check to your poke. I re-read this post a few times thinking I read it wrong but this seems pretty ridiculous, what 'situations' could you take advantage of a predicted U-Turn? Are you referring to the ones like Halcyon of Light listed where there's a far bigger risk to stay in on the U-Turn [which is a 50-50 where you're usually fucked if you guess wrong].

Also brings up a point - once you bring in your next Pokemon, it's not like you're invulnerable. You might, in fact, get shat upon via a surprise from the one you switched in on - say your Jirachi U-Turns on a Nidoking, and you bring in your Gyarados on the predicted Fire Blast... Then you get the biggest 'fuck you' as the foe uses Thunderbolt and your Gyarados drops. U-Turn can be played around pretty easily if needed. Not to say it's a bad move - far from it - but it doesn't seem broken to me.

i do agree with you, though. this conversation has gone pretty much nowhere and is now all about specific scenarios. it's pretty hard to create a definitive stance on the subject when it is quite subjective depending on the pokemon in play - i myself chose the "maybe" option in the poll for this exact reason; it is really variable.

 

[Honus]

That's what i'm saying. That's why the better move is to Earth Power, since you care very little about something switching into that, but you should care more about taking almost a quarter of your health (not to mention an extra 12.5% when you inevitably switch back in) and then also having to deal with Jirachi's move. It seems to me that this has more to do with Landorus being broken than it does with U-turn. Earth Power is the move that's causing the problem in this situation, not U-turn, in my opinion.

swap it for infernape and scizor then i guess, anyways the gist of the argument the risk for the opp is so high that they usually do switch out and the infernape user predicts this and uturns, getting momentum off a switch that the opponent believes he "has" to make if scizor is an important poke in the context of the game

 

[Brambane]

I understand that U-turn (and to lesser degrees, Baton Pass and Volt Switch) put the player at an advantage and is a relatively "safe" move, but... How do these traits make a move broken? Since when has it been wrong to perform actions that put you at an advantage against your opponent?

 

[ginganinja]

I understand that U-turn (and to lesser degrees, Baton Pass and Volt Switch) put the player at an advantage and is a relatively "safe" move, but... How do these traits make a move broken? Since when has it been wrong to perform actions that put you at an advantage against your opponent?

Its the "free" advantage I guess that is frustrating. For instance, there is little counterplay to something like U-Turn Genesect or Tornadus-T (for instance). In the case of Tornadus-T, you had to bring something in, tank the Hurricane, tank the U-Turn and STILL have to deal with the pokemon your opponent selects to bring in with the advantageous match-up. That sort of thing puts you at a severe disadvantage. What makes the move frustrating is that there is currently fuck all counterplay to it. In general, you would hit something before its U-Turning, but many of the problem U-Turners are exceptionally fast so that doesn't work as well, so you are left sitting in the weaker position.

Like I guess, what are you going to do to "stop" the U-Turn, when the player is always getting the free damage + advantage of the switch while ideally taking no damage in the process. People might point out switching to a U-Turn resist that puts pressure on your opponent, but on the other hand the risk reward in these types of scenarios are just so high. For instance, are you really going to switch in that Terrakion on Landorus-I / Scizor just because you THINK its going to U-Turn? The risk reward + the the fact that U-Turn is so safe, and gives you almost free momentum is what made BW1 Volt Turn so frustrating to play against and I suspect, what makes this move so gay.

Do note that I don't necessarily have an opinion either way as to whether its broken or not, im just suggesting what I think is the most frustrating thing about U-Turn.

 

[termi]

I'd say it's not necessarily the move that's broken, but rather a couple of specific abusers that are really good to begin with. Scizor is not even part of this gang, because Scizor can't safely U-turn against everything due to its poor speed. Of course it gives him a great advantage if the opponent switches out to avoid getting Bullet Punched and eats a U-turn + has to face a counter instead, but it can be played around. What's arguably a more potent threat with U-turn is Landy-I, but remember that he has great mixed offensive stats and also can outspeed things without having to resort to priority moves. Landorus always outspeeds non-scarfed base 100s. That, in tandem with taking no LO recoil when using a special attack is what makes him broken. It's not just the momentum he gets from using U-turn, it's just an important cog in the machine. I'd rather just have the absolute worst offenders banned, things that could be ubers even without u-turn in their arsenal. If u-turn really would be as broken as some of you deem it, then I'd say there should be more things that can abuse it the way Landy does. However, all I see is Landy abusing it to great extent, Scizor doing some great damage but not necessarily being broken (still hate the bastard, though) and a couple of mons in an awkward speed tier (bar Nape, who is pretty lame in this meta even with a base 108 speed + U-turn in its arsenal) who can pull off a U-Turn from time to time but are nowhere near top-tier threats just thanks to U-turn.

 

[MikeDawg]

Woah, wait a minute, this is very flawed. You just said that you only lose a teensy bit of momentum by U-turning on Jirachi, but that's not true at all. Your Landorus just took 22.5% damage and you risk having your switchin paralyzed or U-turned on itself, making you lose momentum yourself. I think that's a pretty significant loss in that situation. Yeah, Landorus has the advantage in that it should just Earth power because any check that might come into that can just be fucked by Tyranitar next turn, but that has nothing to do with U-turn.

That's not the point. Landorus takes an exceptionally large (relatively) beating from a mispredict u-turn due to life orb. But hell, would you rather have a chance to gain ridiculous momentum by predicting a switch and lose 20% of your health (and NO momentum) by mispredicting or have a chance to have your pokemon (rachi) die or deal an indirect 20%?

For the rachi player, best case scenario is both sides take 20% and the lando player STILL u-turns to another counter
Worst case is rachi dies

Use a different poke like gliscor, or even a choiced poke like hydreigon and that 20% no longer exists.

You never lose momentum with u-turn except in rather rare circumstances when your only check to a poke is u-turning as said pokemon switches in

 

[vyomov]

Actually, the slow U-Turn is much more deadly than the fast one: fast U-Turns can be countered by prediction.
Say for instance my Landorus U-Turns out vs Celebi to Ttar: Celebi can predict the switch and use HP Fighting to deal serious damage and stop the strategy.
However, if the U-Turn is slow it's much worse. Say for instance my opponent's Terrakion, fearing Bullet Punch from Scizor switches out for Chandelure: my Scizor can just U-Turn out for Starmie(hypothetical example). What makes things worse is that even if my opponent predicts Starmie coming in and chooses to switch for Ferrothorn to gain momentum, the U-Turn user(me in this case) can just change my mind and go for Magnezone(which gains me crucial momentum and possibly the win).
I think that GameFreak should nerf U-Turn by forcing the user to select the pokemon to be switched to prior to the moves(as in I have to select Starmie and can't change my mind if my opponent predicts and sends in Ferrothorn).
This in my opinion would make U-Turn much more skill-based: if the opponent predicts correctly, U-Turn can then backfire(instead of now, where even if the opponent predicts correctly, I can just select a different mon)

 

[ginganinja]

Actually, the slow U-Turn is much more deadly than the fast one: fast U-Turns can be countered by prediction.
Say for instance my Landorus U-Turns out vs Celebi to Ttar: Celebi can predict the switch and use HP Fighting to deal serious damage and stop the strategy.

So wait, your...keeping your Celebi in, taking the U-Turn, and (assuming you survive), using a extremely rare move to hit Tyranitar, who proceeds to survive and kill you. Now, just for fun, lets assume you CH that Tar and killed it, the point is Landorus-I has just crippled / killed one of its MAIN COUNTERS. Sure you killed Tyrantiar, but now Landorus-I can RP and sweep since your Celebi is now crippled.

However, if the U-Turn is slow it's much worse. Say for instance my opponent's Terrakion, fearing Bullet Punch from Scizor switches out for Chandelure: my Scizor can just U-Turn out for Starmie(hypothetical example). What makes things worse is that even if my opponent predicts Starmie coming in and chooses to switch for Ferrothorn to gain momentum, the U-Turn user(me in this case) can just change my mind and go for Magnezone(which gains me crucial momentum and possibly the win).

Maybe this is because its 3 AM my time but I don't follow this logic at all. A Slow U-Turn REQUIRES you to take heavy damage. For instance I can "predict the U-Turn" and OHKO that Scizor with my CB Terrakion which I think is what you were arguing again with reference to the fast U-Turn. Fast U-Turns force your switch in to take the damage, while slow U-Turns force the U-Turn user to tank the damage in order to bring in the recipient safely. Id honestly rank Fast U-Turns as worse than slower ones since most of the time you are bringing in a counter anyway to take bugger all from x move.

Don't care about your proposal because your asking GameFreak to do something that prolly won't happen unless some employee is magically reading this forum at this minute and sees your post and pushes it at the boardroom or something.

TY PTTP should have known better to post at 3 AM -_-

 

[MikeDawg]

Actually, the slow U-Turn is much more deadly than the fast one: fast U-Turns can be countered by prediction.
Say for instance my Landorus U-Turns out vs Celebi to Ttar: Celebi can predict the switch and use HP Fighting to deal serious damage and stop the strategy.
However, if the U-Turn is slow it's much worse. Say for instance my opponent's Terrakion, fearing Bullet Punch from Scizor switches out for Chandelure: my Scizor can just U-Turn out for Starmie(hypothetical example). What makes things worse is that even if my opponent predicts Starmie coming in and chooses to switch for Ferrothorn to gain momentum, the U-Turn user(me in this case) can just change my mind and go for Magnezone(which gains me crucial momentum and possibly the win).
I think that GameFreak should nerf U-Turn by forcing the user to select the pokemon to be switched to prior to the moves(as in I have to select Starmie and can't change my mind if my opponent predicts and sends in Ferrothorn).
This in my opinion would make U-Turn much more skill-based: if the opponent predicts correctly, U-Turn can then backfire(instead of now, where even if the opponent predicts correctly, I can just select a different mon)

HP Fighting Celebi? :p In any case, that isn't how this scenario would really play out.

If u-trun doesn't outright kill celebi (it isn't really the weakest of moves), there is no need to go to something like ttar when pretty much ANY pokemon can finish it off by then (ideally, jirachi can come in super safely and u-turn again!)

Of course, I'll give you benefit of the poor scenario rather than simply dismiss the actual argument

But in almost all cases, to really catch something by surprise after a u-turn you probably have to use something somewhat gimmicky.

Like if you u-turn on my rp lando and you have a rotom-w or some flying type or something I'll probably fblast and hit the switch in at least decently hard

But if i u-turn on your jirachi, you better believe that jellicent is coming in, essentially shutting it down.

Or ferro or something.

Yes, you can have tpunch or fpunch or something, but is that really a practical situation?

 

[PttP]

So wait, your...keeping your Celebi in, taking the U-Turn, and (assuming you survive), using a extremely rare move to hit Tyranitar, who proceeds to survive and kill you. Now, just for fun, lets assume you CH that Tar and killed it, the point is Landorus-I has just crippled / killed one of its MAIN COUNTERS. Sure you killed Tyrantiar, but now Landorus-I can RP and sweep since your Celebi is now crippled.

Ah! The infamous RP + U-Turn Landorus has claimed yet another victory on the hypothetical battlefield! The combination is almost as lethal as the presence of HP Fighting Celebi!

I personally think it is silly that people want to ban U-Turn, but then again, the last thing that I've wanted banned since Blaziken was Latios and I couldn't even get that one right so wutevz. I just find the poll/poster disparity very funny.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Ah! The infamous RP + U-Turn Landorus has claimed yet another victory on the hypothetical battlefield! The combination is almost as lethal as the presence of HP Fighting Celebi!

I personally think it is silly that people want to ban U-Turn, but then again, the last thing that I've wanted banned since Blaziken was Latios and I couldn't even get that one right so wutevz. I just find the poll/poster disparity very funny.

Actually, Taylor was running Landorus-I that used both Rock Polish AND U-turn. It's great at eliminating it's counters, and the coverage from Focus Blast isn't missed much anyway, since it's only really hitting Rotom-W. While this is a very situational example, it does exist. Ginganinja's point still stands about Celebi being weakened enough for Landorus-I do to a lot of work to the opposing team.

 

[Vert]

Volt Swith and U-turn. Preferably U-turn is better due to it's lack of immunitites and wide distribution, and Volt Switch is stopped by ground-types. However most carry BoltBeam coverage when using this move (See Forretress, Thundurus-T, Jolteon, Rotom-W has Hydro Pump to hit Ground-types) which is the scary part, but they are not broken. While they carry a lot of utility, most of them a fairly predictable. Scizor almost always U-turns which means its easy to predict what they're going to switch into. For example (assuming Choice Scarf Scizor), Player 1 knows that Player 2 is going to U-turn because Player 2 has Ninetales currently in play. Player 2 knows that Scizor is Choice Scarf so it'll go for the fast U-turn. Obviously, Player 1 has a Heatran to gain the Flash Fire boost, so it either comes to two situations. Ninetales can use Hidden Power [Ground] to hit the incommoding Heatran, or use a different move like Sunny Day predicting a weather starter comes in. This may seem complex, but I'm giving an example in winning the weather wars. It's easy to predict what the opponent is going to do with these momentum gaining moves. In another situation is when a Scizor is against a Choice Specs Rotom-W. Obviously it doesn't want to eat and die to a boosted Hydro Pump, so it'll switch to a more favorable mach-up like Gastrodon, know to get hit by Volt Switch and switch tot the appropriate counter. Dugtrio is also all over this metagame as well as gothitell making situation 2 less effective for the opponent. This one example of why I am saying that U-turn isn't broken. Sure, it makes lots of Pokemon more viable, but not broken which is why I am not agreeing with those statements in IRC, but they make a good point how it's a portion of making it broken, save Genesect.

 

[reyscarface]

It's easy to predict what the opponent is going to do with these momentum gaining moves.

Load of bull. If it was easy volt turn wouldnt be so devastating in the highest level of play. You might think its easy to "predict" your average ladder idiot but try predicting a player like 2010 Earthworm using volt turn and you will get an unpleasant surprise.

Dugtrio is also all over this metagame as well as gothitell making situation 2 less effective for the opponent.

Dugtrio and Gothitelle teams get massively fucked by Volt Turn. How can you trap something when all your opponent does is spam uturn and volt switch.