Teleport ban was not a balance change, it was banned for this https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056810518Alright so we’re banning teleport but not Sub, wish, or ArenaTrap/Dugtrio. Great.
watch on hyperfast
Teleport ban was not a balance change, it was banned for this https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056810518Alright so we’re banning teleport but not Sub, wish, or ArenaTrap/Dugtrio. Great.
From what I can tell, the top of the ladder is currently mostly Sub Exca + Wish passer, or stall, or both. Here's the current ladder #2 vs the ladder #7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056918407. I see Wish + Substitute as a strategy with no true counterstrategy and it's natural that it has found its way to the top of ladder in the first 2 days.I also have been watching a few ladder matches and so far have not seen substitute been polarizing...Substitute also admittedly lost a few notable abusers, though conkeldurr is thriving from the few times ive seen it. I feel the addition of home may help me decide on this one as alot of the more threatening sub users get walled by corviknight or corsola or get dealt with by dragapult.
Will give this a proper review once I get off from work. But I would like to say on both sub and wish I plan to have a proper action take place at the end of the week.From what I can tell, the top of the ladder is currently mostly Sub Exca + Wish passer, or stall, or both. Here's the current ladder #2 vs the ladder #7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056918407. I see Wish + Substitute as a strategy with no true counterstrategy and it's natural that it has found its way to the top of ladder in the first 2 days.
I don't see any fundamental reason why the mechanics of gen 8 would make Sub any less of an issue than it was in gen 7. You mention that Sub users can be either walled or revenged by a select few pokemon, but this line of reasoning implies that Sub would only be considered broken if it led to an unpreventable sweep. Substitute is broken because it is a low risk, high reward move that allows for completely safe play on the part of the Substitute user.
Here's an essay I wrote last year about why Substitute is broken in Trademarked if anyone would like the full story.
Why would you ever run Detect over Protect on this set?Grapploct @ Leftovers
Ability: Topsy-Turvy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sucker Punch /Liquidation/Ice Punch
- Detect
- Drain Punch
- Circle Throw
Need a hazer? Why notZoidbergGrapploct? Topsy-Turvy acts as a stronger Haze, and its respectable 80/90/80 bulk ensures that the now debuffed sweeper will not kill it no matter how much it wants to. Drain punch lets you get some chip damage and heal back up from whatever they tried to hit you with. Circle Throw prevents further setup, Detect lets you read the switch-in's move, and the last move is coverage.
Wish as a TM provides teams with instant recovery just from switching in and out, which makes switching very hard to punish as a whole unless you can punish both the Wish user and what else they may want to switch into. Moreover, Wish in conjunction with Substitute users allows this usually free switch (barring multi-hit moves or other Sub evaders), while bringing the Sub user back to full. This effectively gives the sub user 4 more switch ins, and when it comes to wallbreakers or fast sweepers like Gengar, there's really no denying how threatening it is.
Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: swordsdance
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Throat Chop
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Low Kick / Psycho Cut
This set is probably my favorite in the metagame right now. Ice Shard is super duper good as a revenge killing and cleaning tool, allowing you to not just fold to Dragapult, Kommo-O, and many other sweepers (including those who take neutral damage). Icicle Spear breaks subs but Crash is more reliable in its damage output. Low Kick can 2HKO Avalugg (which I'll talk about in a moment) with a little chip or rolls while Psycho Cut lets you dent Pex.
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 204-242 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (KOs after Clangorous Soul)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kommo-o: 306-362 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not Soul? just KOs)
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 470-554 (148.2 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 226-267 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 408-480 (125.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 280-331 (106.8 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You hit about 1000 attack, so you're also pretty good at wallbreaking, although there is of course also some extreme bulk in this metagame.
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Leech Seed recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 170-202 (43.1 - 51.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 277-327 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (don't try to stay in though, they have priority)
My experience with Weavile so far is that it brings in the majority of my wins when it's on my team. A weakened team can rarely tank all of its attacks, and I either find myself cleaning with Ice Shard versus offensive cores or smacking through chipped mons with power moves, more often the former in this rather offensive meta.
No replays yet but I'll see if I can make one.
Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: irondefense
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Avalanche
- Body Press
- Rapid Spin
This thing is kinda insane. In the replay I posted below it tanks a +6 STAB Super Effective Flare Blitz from a Charizard.
This answers almost every physical sweeper in the metagame, although a few can mash past it if played well. Stuff with Super-Effective STABs mostly, and it can usually tank at least one hit. Anything that isn't boosted, item boosted, and high BP, high attack, and STAB (or using a special move like idk Ember) probably fails to 2hko this thing.
252+ Atk Choice Band Conkeldurr Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (no boost no go)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 90-108 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- approx. 44.1% chance to 4HKO (not even close lol)
+2 252 Atk Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 126-150 (31.9 - 38%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-195 (41.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Excadrill is a bit weird. Band just wins if Avalugg switches in. Life Orb loses 70% of the time BUT can flinch. Scarf does about the same as Life Orb but Avalugg is much freer to click Recover. I haven't seen many Excadrill so I'm not sure what's most common, although Scarf seems best to me.)
+6 252 Atk Charizard Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (lol this doesn't OHKO)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8trademarked-1056552844
On Substitute...
I don't find it super cancerous I won't lie. I've found it actually healthy for the metagame so far because it puts a restraint on set-up sweepers, which have a ball with this metagame. I've been trying a number of Sub attackers, and none of them have stood out as broken so far. Dragapult, Toxtricity, Weavile, Kommo-O, and other sound/multi-hit attackers all have ways around Substitute, and are all good mons. Three of those were not around / as relevant last generation btw.
Probably the best I've used so far thanks to great power, priority, and good coverage. I found it either couldn't come in very often because of Sub or lacked power because it wasn't running Close Combat. The fact that Dragapult is everywhere makes its life harder as well.
Strength Sap + good coverage + good power, but it detests Dragapult even more than Conk. However it's been my favorite to use so far due to Strength Sap allowing it great sustainability.
Yes, I used this thing. No it didn't work out very well.
best boi in the meta, but i have a hard time thinking it's broken. Has serious trouble with the Weavile set I posted above as well as the omnipresent Dragapult and Kommon-O.
free him
There are a lot of others, as Sub is pretty splashable. However I find that Substitute is perfectly balanced and you just have to keep it in mind when you build, the same as any other high tier threat.
When comparing this gen to last, we lost stuff like Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, every mega, Thundurus, Latios, and more, and gained some neat counterplay. This meta seems much more forgiving to let an opponent get a Sub up in (this argument doesn't go a long ways towards talking about Sub this gen, which is what we should focus on, but I'd like to minimize the comparisons to last generation as it's a whole different ball game).
On Wish...
I really haven't seen it being broken yet. Could the people who want it banned elaborate on why?
On Mew / Transform...
I agree it's a conversation that needs to be had but I'm not sure where I stand yet.
Disable works by disabling the last move the target used. If they haven't used a move, they can't be disabled, therefore disable fails if they haven't used a move since switching in.Also, would Disable disable a random move if it activates before a move is used at all or would it disable the first move the foe uses?
Ye I know, I was excluding that and using its base speedBean Man With a Timid Nature and max Speed, Ribombee actually hits 571 speed after a QD as opposed to 520. Also, would Disable disable a random move if it activates before a move is used at all or would it disable the first move the foe uses?
Sub is fine because of how rampant Status is, Wish just makes it betterI’d say ban Wish and Substitute as trademarks,
You know you just made a Broken checks Broken argument right? Implying both are broken?Sub is fine because of how rampant Status is,
thats a matter of coding question. Taunt isnt suppose to block them by virtue of being abilities which is why assvest doesnt block em. Otherwise the ngas thing I would have to ask the person who coded it , since skill swap, trace and roleplay apply as normal.How do you determine interactions between tms and literally everything else? Some of the interactions feel like they were pulled out of a hat, like ngas and taunt failing to block tms, tms activating before all buffered switches have been resolved, etc.
What about the tms activating before all bufferred switches in a turn resolved?thats a matter of coding question. Taunt isnt suppose to block them by virtue of being abilities which is why assvest doesnt block em. Otherwise the ngas thing I would have to ask the person who coded it , since skill swap, trace and roleplay apply as normal.
can you possibly give a replay showing this happening? Cause to my knowledge abilities dont activate after buffered switches occur, they activate before then. Abilities usually are suppose to activate upon being swapped in. I can try and confirm the situation ingame but it usualy goesWhat about the tms activating before all bufferred switches in a turn resolved?
Ok, I might want to explain that one. Normally, when someone buffers a switch, there is absolutely nothing an opponent can do to affect the pokemon that is switching out, with the exception of pursuit. If you switch in a pokemon with a standard ability that activates on switch-in, the ability will activate after all bufferred switches resolve. However, trademarks will activate IMMEDIATELY after the pokemon switches in, which causes tms to occasionally affect a pokemon that is about to switch out. (i.e. Both trainers choose to switch out there mons. A pokemon with tm trick switches in first, tricking a choice scarf onto the opponent BEFORE the enemy carries out the switch. The receiver of the scarf then switches out.)
tbh, I think that mechanic is kinda stupid.