OU Toxic Orb Heracross (QC 3/3) [GP 2/2]

Aragorn the King

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QC: AM | ben gay | TheEnder
GP: antemortem | Weebl

Toxic Orb
########
name: Toxic Orb
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Facade
move 4: Swords Dance
ability: Guts
item: Toxic Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Close Combat hits very hard after the Guts boost and checks and OHKOs a lot of common Pokemon such as Heatran, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Mega Lopunny. It can even 2HKO bulky Pokemon that it hits neutrally such as Skarmory and Keldeo. Megahorn hits as hard as Close Combat, but has a fair chance to miss and doesn't have the spectacular coverage Close Combat does. Nevertheless, it allows Heracross to differentiate itself as a Fighting-type, able to crush slow Psychic-types such as Mew, Celebi, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro. With Megahorn, Heracross can also switch into and 2HKO Mega Sableye, a Pokemon most Fighting-types cannot deal with. Facade is a great complementary move to Heracross's STAB moves. Clefable, Sylveon, Togekiss, Zapdos, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Mega Altaria resist Close Combat and Megahorn, and Heracross easily can deal with them thanks to Facade, which is boosted to a reliable 140 Base Power move once Heracross is poisoned by its Toxic Orb. Swords Dance may seem counterintuitive on a hit-and-run Pokemon such as Heracross, but it's actually very important, as it lets Heracross OHKO Magic Guard Clefable with Facade instead of having to 2HKO it and take a Moonblast in the process. Swords Dance allows Heracross to also act as a premier Gliscor switch-in, as Heracross doesn't mind any of Gliscor's moves, and can therefore set up on Gliscor and defeat it with Facade. Swords Dance won't be used in all games, but it's necessary to deal with various defensive cores, namely those involving Clefable and Gliscor, but also any others with slow Pokemon that can take an unboosted attack from Heracross and OHKO it back, such as Mega Altaria.

Set Details
========

Maximum Speed EVs and a Jolly nature are used for outspeeding Pokemon with base 80 Speed, such as Togekiss and Mamoswine, as well as Adamant Excadrill outside of sand. Maximum Attack EVs are used for hitting as hard as possible. Toxic Orb reliably activates Guts.

Usage Tips
========

Against most teams, Guts Heracross acts as a hit-and-run wallbreaker. Try getting Heracross in for free; it is worn down easily by Toxic damage and doesn't like having to take a hit on the switch. A slow U-turn or Volt Switch user is extremely useful for getting Heracross in. With that said, Heracross is not that frail, and can pivot in on weaker moves, such as Mega Sableye's Shadow Ball and Alomomola's Scald, if necessary. Once in, Heracross should use one of its STAB moves. This part is pretty self explanatory: if Heracross is up against Slowbro, Cresselia, or Mega Sableye, it should use Megahorn, and if it's up against Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Tyranitar, it should use Close Combat. Facade should be used against Pokemon that resist both STAB moves, such as Clefable, Gliscor, and Mega Altaria. If you aim to break these threats without either Heracross being either stalled out or severely damaged, Heracross needs to use Swords Dance first. This can be tricky, but try to get Heracross in against a defensive Pokemon that cannot touch it, such as Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, or Alomomola.

Team Options
========

The activation of Toxic Orb is very important; Heracross really needs that 1.5x boost to its Attack to be threatening. It's very important to get Heracross in safely at the end of a turn so that it doesn't have to attack without the boost at any time. Therefore, slow U-turn and Volt Switch users such as Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Choice Band Scizor are really useful. Additionally, Heracross is great at breaking through bulky Psychic-types such as Mew, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro, making it a great partner for Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny, Landorus-T, Heatran, Landorus, and Keldeo, which struggle to defeat them. Pokemon that appreciate Steel-types such as Heatran being removed, such as Clefable, also make good teammates. Furthermore, Pokemon that desire a teammate capable of setting up on Gliscor, such as Landorus-T and Landorus that lack Hidden Power Ice, enjoy having Heracross as a partner. On the flip side, Heracross enjoys Pokemon that can deal with Gengar, such as tanks and walls in the vein of Goodra, Hippowdon, and Mandibuzz, as well as revenge killers such as Mega Alakazam. Additionally, Heracross finds itself easily revenge killed by Fire-, Flying-, and Psychic-types. Tyranitar helps out against all three, Rhyperior helps with the first two, and bulky Psychic-types such as Cresselia and offensive Dark-types such as Weavile take care of the third.
 
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jzplr

formerly SuperLuigi9624
I would say that the Flame Orb would be a better option, especially if you're running SD. Burns aren't affected by Guts so it doesn't ruin the effect.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I would say that the Flame Orb would be a better option, especially if you're running SD. Burns aren't affected by Guts so it doesn't ruin the effect.
Toxic orb is better because both status conditions activate guts, and this set is meant to be a hit and run attacker, and toxic damage is less than burn damage within the first few turns as it starts out small (6% I think) while burn is constantly at 12%.

Edit: hit and run is probably a more subjective term, but if I'm wrong about the reasoning regarding toxic orb > flame orb let me know.
 
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jzplr

formerly SuperLuigi9624
Toxic orb is better because both status conditions activate guts, and this set is meant to be a hit and run attacker, and toxic damage is less than burn damage within the first few turns as it starts out small (6% I think) while burn is constantly at 12%.
Well, Swords Dance. Most of the time, Swords Dance isn't hit and run, right?
 

SparksBlade

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imo Toxic Orb is still a better option cos you will be using Heracross in a hit-n-run fashion during early- and mid-game. It gets to set up late-game, when it doesn't matter which orb it has cos over 4-5 turns the status-damage is similar, while the burn damage during the hit-n-run phase is visibly more than toxic damage.
 

jzplr

formerly SuperLuigi9624
imo Toxic Orb is still a better option cos you will be using Heracross in a hit-n-run fashion during early- and mid-game. It gets to set up late-game, when it doesn't matter which orb it has cos over 4-5 turns the status-damage is similar, while the burn damage during the hit-n-run phase is visibly more than toxic damage.
Well, if that's the case, I think Swords Dance should be slashed. Usually you're not gonna set up when you're being chipped of over 40% of your health when you're out for too long.
 
Yeah Heracross isn't setting up late game unless against poorly played stall; it's best used for punching holes early and often. Toxic orb is the best option as practically speaking you'll rarely be out for more than two turns.
 

Aragorn the King

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You guys are right; Swords Dance certainly isn't a move that you'll be using in all games. However, it's definitely useful against one annoying target: (Magic Guard) Clefable. Heracross is really nice as a fighting-type wallbreaker that can cruise through clefable, but it's only doing so if it gets to use sd on the switch. Otherwise, clefable takes 58% max from the facade and subsequently does upwards of 80 with moonblast, which is usually enough to kill given all the toxic damage. Another target SD helps out with is Gliscor. Gliscor, provided it's only running EQ and Toxic, is bait for Heracross to come in. However, if Gliscor is running any physical bulk, which is obviously likely, it actually stalls Heracross out. However, if Heracross has SD, it can use it so that it can 2HKO with Facade. Against most teams, sure, your main course of action is to get in safely, obliterate something with a 180 or 140 BP move, take 6.25% toxic damage, and then switch out. But with teams with clef/scor, SD proves invaluable.
 

Martin

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TBH, SD is the best option you could run there as the only other options it could really use would be Stone Edge (guaranteed OHKO on Zard-Y as opposed to 50% chance) and Knock Off (#utility). Both of those are pretty poor options on Guts Heracross IMO as their benefits are very rarely worth it, while at least SD allows you to take on those two v. common threats that would otherwise wall you and have situational, relatively common utility as opposed to something reliant on Zard Y being at full health or the ability to knock off items while sacrificing the ability to hit those two Pokemon for any worthwhile damage while they stall you to the point where you can be taken out by their attacks/a wasted turn.

It should be in the last moveslot as opposed to the first tho because it isn't exactly something you will be using on a matchly/by-matchly basis
 

jzplr

formerly SuperLuigi9624
I still don't see how Toxic Orb is viable on an SD set. If you're using SD, you plan on staying in for a long time, right? I mean, what's the point in SDing if you're only gonna fight one Pokémon and then switch out? I think that the Flame Orb's steady damage works better than the multiplying Toxic Orb.

That being said, I've never tested it.
 

AM

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Ok so if you guys never tested Heracross then perhaps its best not to comment on it. I mean let's be honest that's sort of common sense with anything you're providing advice for not just making assumptions based on a bunch of theory.

Anyways I talked with Jukain and we agreed that SD is Heracross' best asset in breaking defensive builds so I wouldn't slash this with anything else while the other 3 moves are some of its best options it has going for it with this set.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
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Ok so if you guys never tested Heracross then perhaps its best not to comment on it. I mean let's be honest that's sort of common sense with anything you're providing advice for not just making assumptions based on a bunch of theory.

Anyways I talked with Jukain and we agreed that SD is Heracross' best asset in breaking defensive builds so I wouldn't slash this with anything else while the other 3 moves are some of its best options it has going for it with this set.
Thanks for the look. I finished expanding, and this is now ready for QC.
 

boltsandbombers

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Nice job, pretty simple stuff to explain.

Main thing that stands out to me is in moves you say that SD lets you ohko Clefable with facade, but make sure to say that this is only for Magic guard clef. While unaware isn't as common, it's certainly viable ofc. Facade still puts a massive hurt in unaware clef because they tend to run a little bit of spdef and not max def specifically for Manaphy, and it can stall out the poison damage with wish + protect.

"Swords Dance is counterintuitive on a hit and run Pokemon,"

Personally, I wouldn't go as far to say that it is counterintuitive, but I'd say that it may seem as such.

Add Lando-T as a Facade target.
 

antemortem

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Toxic Orb
########
name: Toxic Orb
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Facade
move 4: Swords Dance
ability: Guts
item: Toxic Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Close Combat hits very hard after the Guts boost,(RC) and lets Heracross checks and OHKOs a lot of common Pokemon such as Heatran, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Mega Lopunny. It can even 2HKO bulky Pokemon that it hits neutrally,(RC) such as Skarmory and Keldeo. Megahorn hits as hard as Close Combat, but has a fair miss chance and doesn't have the spectacular coverage Close Combat does. Nevertheless, it allows Heracross to differentiate itself as a Fighting-type,; it's able to crush slow Psychic-types,(RC) such as Mew, Celebi, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro. The move also lets With Megahorn, Heracross can also switch in on and 2HKO Mega Sableye, a Pokemon most Fighting-types cannot deal with. Facade is a great complementary move to Heracross's STAB moves. Clefable, Sylveon, Togekiss, Zapdos, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Mega Altaria resist Close Combat and Megahorn, and Heracross easily can deal with them thanks to Facade, which is a reliable 140 Base Power move because by way of Toxic Orb. Swords Dance may seem counterintuitive on a hit-(hyphens)and-run Pokemon such as Heracross, but it's actually very important, because as it lets Heracross OHKO Magic Guard Clefable with Facade instead of having to 2HKO it and in the process take a Moonblast in the process. Swords Dance also allows Heracross to act as a premier Gliscor switch-in, as Heracross doesn't mind any of Gliscor's moves, and thus can set up on Gliscor and defeat it with Facade. Swords Dance won't be used in all games, but it's necessary to deal with various defensive cores, namely those involving Clefable and Gliscor, but also any others with slow Pokemon that can take an unboosted +0 attack and OHKO back, such as Mega Altaria.


Set Details
========

Maximum Speed EVs and Jolly nature are used for outspeeding Pokemon with base 80 Speed, such as Togekiss and Mamoswine, as well as Adamant Excadrill outside of sand. Maximum Attack EVs are used for hitting as hard as possible. A Toxic Orb is used for reliably activating reliably activates Guts.

Usage Tips
========

Against most teams, Guts Heracross acts as a hit and run wallbreaker. Try getting Heracross in for free; Heracross is worn down easily by Toxic damage and doesn't like having to take a hit on the switch in. A slow U-turn or Volt Switch is extremely useful for getting Heracross in. With that said, Heracross is not that frail, and can pivot in on weaker moves,(AC) such as Mega Sableye's Shadow Ball or Alomomola's Scald,(AC) if need-be necessary. Once in, Heracross is most likely going to should ("is most likely going to" sounds like you're facing Heracross rather than using it) use one of its STAB moves. This part is pretty self explanatory: if Heracross is up against Slowbro, Cresselia, or Mega Sableye, it should use Megahorn, and if it's up against Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Tyranitar, it should use Close Combat. Facade should be used against Pokemon that resist both STAB moves,(RC) such as Clefable, Gliscor, and Mega Altaria. If you aim to break these threats without either being stalled out or being severely damaged, Heracross needs to use Swords Dance first. This can be tricky, but try to time it against a defensive Pokemon that cannot touch Heracross,(RC) such as Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, or Alomomola.

Team Options
========

The activation of the Toxic Orb is very important; Heracross really needs that 1.5x boost to its Attack to be threatening. It's very important to get Heracross in safely at the end of a turn so that it doesn't have to attack without the boost at any time. Slow U-turn and Volt Switch users,(RC) such as Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Choice Band Scizor are thus really useful. Additionally, Heracross is a great way to break bulky Psychic-types. Pokemon that struggle against any of such as Mew, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro, as potential partners such as Mega Lopunny, Landorus-T, Heatran, Landorus, and Keldeo, thus appreciate Heracross's support struggle with defeating them otherwise. Pokemon that appreciate Steel-types such as Heatran being removed, such as Clefable, also make good teammates. Furthermore, Pokemon that desire a teammate capable of setting up on Gliscor, such as Landorus-T and non-Hidden Power Ice Landorus, enjoy having Heracross as a partner. On the flip side, Heracross enjoys Pokemon that can deal with Gengar. such as tanks or walls such as in the form of Goodra, Hippowdon, and Mandibuzz, and as well as revenge killers such as Mega Alakazam thus can make good teammates. Additionally, Heracross finds itself easily revenge killed by Fire-, Flying-, and Psychic-types. Tyranitar helps out with all three, Rhyperior helps with the former two, and bulky Psychic-types such as Cresselia,(AC) as well as offensive Dark-types such as Weavile,(AC) take care of the latter.
GP 1/2
 

Weebl

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Toxic Orb

########
name: Toxic Orb
move 1: Close Combat
move 2: Megahorn
move 3: Facade
move 4: Swords Dance
ability: Guts
item: Toxic Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Close Combat hits very hard after the Guts boost and checks and OHKOs a lot of common Pokemon such as Heatran, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and Mega Lopunny. It can even 2HKO bulky Pokemon that it hits neutrally such as Skarmory and Keldeo. Megahorn hits as hard as Close Combat, but has a fair miss chance to miss and doesn't have the spectacular coverage Close Combat does. Nevertheless, it allows Heracross to differentiate itself as a Fighting-type, able to crush slow Psychic-types such as Mew, Celebi, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro. With Megahorn, Heracross can also switch into on and 2HKO Mega Sableye, a Pokemon most Fighting-types cannot deal with. Facade is a great complementary move to Heracross's STAB moves. Clefable, Sylveon, Togekiss, Zapdos, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Mega Altaria resist Close Combat and Megahorn, and Heracross easily can deal with them thanks to Facade, which is boosted to a reliable 140 Base Power move by way of once Heracross is poisoned by its Toxic Orb. Swords Dance may seem counterintuitive on a hit-and-run Pokemon such as Heracross, but it's actually very important, as it lets Heracross OHKO Magic Guard Clefable with Facade instead of having to 2HKO it and take a Moonblast in the process. Swords Dance also allows Heracross to also act as a premier Gliscor switch-in, as Heracross doesn't mind any of Gliscor's moves, and can therefore ("thus" works here too; I just like "therefore" better.) thus can set up on Gliscor and defeat it with Facade. Swords Dance won't be used in all games, but it's necessary to deal with various defensive cores, namely those involving Clefable and Gliscor, but also any others with slow Pokemon that can take an unboosted attack from Heracross and OHKO it back, such as Mega Altaria.

Set Details
========

Maximum Speed EVs and a Jolly nature are used for outspeeding Pokemon with base 80 Speed, such as Togekiss and Mamoswine, as well as Adamant Excadrill outside of sand. Maximum Attack EVs are used for hitting as hard as possible. Toxic Orb reliably activates Guts.

Usage Tips
========

Against most teams, Guts Heracross acts as a hit and run hit-and-run wallbreaker. Try getting Heracross in for free; it Heracross is worn down easily by Toxic damage and doesn't like having to take a hit on the switch in. A slow U-turn or Volt Switch user is extremely useful for getting Heracross in. With that said, Heracross is not that frail, and can pivot in on weaker moves, such as Mega Sableye's Shadow Ball or and Alomomola's Scald, if necessary. Once in, Heracross should use one of its STAB moves. This part is pretty self explanatory: if Heracross is up against Slowbro, Cresselia, or Mega Sableye, it should use Megahorn, and if it's up against Heatran, Ferrothorn, or Tyranitar, it should use Close Combat. Facade should be used against Pokemon that resist both STAB moves, (AC) such as Clefable, Gliscor, and Mega Altaria. If you aim to break these threats without Heracross being either being stalled out or being severely damaged, Heracross needs to use Swords Dance first. This can be tricky, but try to time it get Heracross in against a defensive Pokemon that cannot touch it, (AC) Heracross such as Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, or Alomomola.

Team Options
========

The activation of the Toxic Orb is very important; Heracross really needs that 1.5x boost to its Attack to be threatening. It's very important to get Heracross in safely at the end of a turn so that it doesn't have to attack without the boost at any time. Therefore, (AC) slow U-turn and Volt Switch users such as Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Jirachi, and Choice Band Scizor are thus really useful. Additionally, Heracross is a great way to at breaking through bulky Psychic-types such as Mew, Cresselia, and Mega Slowbro, making it a great partner for Pokemon as potential partners such as Mega Lopunny, Landorus-T, Heatran, Landorus, and Keldeo, (AC) which struggle to defeat them with defeating them otherwise. Pokemon that appreciate Steel-types such as Heatran being removed, such as Clefable, also make good teammates. Furthermore, Pokemon that desire a teammate capable of setting up on Gliscor, such as Landorus-T and non- Landorus that lack Hidden Power Ice Landorus, enjoy having Heracross as a partner. On the flip side, Heracross enjoys Pokemon that can deal with Gengar, such as tanks or and walls in the form vein of Goodra, Hippowdon, and Mandibuzz, as well as revenge killers such as Mega Alakazam. Additionally, Heracross finds itself easily revenge killed by Fire-, Flying-, and Psychic-types. Tyranitar helps out with against all three, Rhyperior helps with the former first two, and bulky Psychic-types such as Cresselia, (RC) and as well as offensive Dark-types such as Weavile, (RC) take care of the latter third.

GP 2/2
 
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