Tipping Culture

[tcr]

Discuss tipping culture in here, inspired by this tweet

Some standard pro-tipping arguments:

• Employees subside almost exclusively on tips
• One is obligated to tip as restaurant owners pay ~2$/hr
• If you don't tip then the workers will hate you and probably spit in your food
• Tipping is an incentive for great service, the harder one works the more likely one will get a great tip

Some standard anti-tipping arguments:

• Not every job gets tipped and one shouldn't pay extra money just for someone doing their job
• "Don't hate the player, hate the game"
• Wait staff get their money pooled anyway so at worst they break even at minimum wage (source)
• Form of protest for inadequate worker conditions

I'm interested to see what Cong thinks about tipping especially since we can get answers that aren't Americentric.

Personally I'm on the stance that tipping should be abolished as a custom and is a perfect example of labor exploitation. The idea that the customer must subsidize the wait staff's wages in lieu of the restaurant owner I think is rotten capitalism and playing into that system at best passively ignores the issue. The wait staff by law will get paid at least minimum wage and often dramatically more than minimum wage. That is not to say that I don't tip but if confronted on the issue, such as someone expecting a tip and being obtuse about it or getting awful service then I am not disinclined to leave no tip. I do have prior experience as both a server and as a delivery driver so I do know what it is like to have to subsist on tips mostly. I also know that service industry people are typically assholes who do the bare minimum for their job. I have not worked at a 'high class' restaurant.

answer below

 

[Myzozoa]

if you can tip u should, but if you cant service ppl will not hold it against u. id challenge you to think of a time when anyone received worse service because they didn't tip. you can't sorry, and this is because you leave a tip at the end of a service so while providing the service the person has no idea what your tip will be like. cmon, you can do much better than presenting a resentment based in something so obviously impossible. tipping should just be abolished and staff paid a real wage is ofc true, but not tipping does nothing to improve anyone's situation, if anything it compounds the awfulness of the workers' experience.

keep in my mind:

tips are not always pooled or distributed fairly if pooled

service ppl do not do the bare minimum they can get away with lol idk how you came up w that one, but it is flatly untrue even at the low-end establishments. like idk abt you but if someone is doing my eyebrows or hair and they are not doing the minimum. lol. if they did id not return.

tipping is a remnant of some type of weird feudal economy

 

[GatoDelFuego]

write to your representatives to abolish the lower minimum wage for tipping

 

[earl]

Worked for tips before, creates a weird sorta toxic competition between workers even if pooled (oh I made the most, you made the least, etc). Dumbass system that baited me into working for what would allegedly be “$10 an hour at worst” but ended up being nearly constant minimum wage due to how tips were split between various roles. Get rid of it, but I myself tip because it’s not the fault of the workers.

Employers: If you can’t afford to pay workers a good wage and require the customer pay the difference, you either should increase prices to account for this shortcoming or not be in business

 

[Bughouse]

"The idea that the customer must subsidize the wait staff's wages in lieu of the restaurant owner I think is rotten capitalism and playing into that system at best passively ignores the issue."

This is the wrong framing imo, since it's pretty clear that restaurant menu prices would go up in a scenario where this labor cost is shifted back to the restaurant owner. So if we are assuming that tipping will happen at whatever is the equivalent level to pay the wait staff what they would otherwise be paid then it comes out as a wash and is just a matter of the psychic costs/other framings of the issue. In reality how tipping compensates for the lower tipped wages is not that far off from the truth, and when tips come up short relative to minimum wage (whether in the first instance or after they're pooled), then by law the wage is meant to be raised to the point where the worker is still earning minimum wage. Unfortunately, this "by law" really means "in theory" since it rarely happens and is one of the larger sources of wage theft in the country.

So I don't like to think about it really as "who pays" since this is really more about what we call the amounts of money and how we add them up in what order.

The way I think about it is instead who should be at risk for receiving or not receiving this money from the customer? The business owner or the employee? When wait staff are paid primarily by tips, they're effectively working for commission, and pay by commission puts substantial risk on the employee, relative to any other hourly or salaried employee. True, there are other jobs that pay at commission (which I'm not generally gonna get into now), but I see little reason why serving at a restaurant should be one. People may tip based on the perceived quality of the service they receive from wait staff, but they might also tip based on tons of things out of the waitstaff's hands, like the quality of the food, any delays, a rude host at the welcome desk, or frankly just how much money is being spent at the table, since tipping is generally thought of as a % of costs. The fact that tips are often pooled is frankly evidence of this understanding that tips are not solely based on an individual's performance. Even bartenders, who have considerably more "control" over their customer's tipping decisions might still be tipped one way or another for reasons out of the bartender's control. Maybe the music was too loud or the bar was too crowded and it took too long to get a drink because they were short staffed, etc.

Again, not gonna get into the validity of commissioned gigs, but regardless waiting tables is NOT the same thing as selling a car. It's not a "I need to compete with my coworkers (and competitors at other restaurants) for who's going to get to wait the few tables that customers will sit at today, and I need to successfully win 2 of those tables a month to make a living". It's "oh look here's a constant stream of work that I have to do day in, day out, as a part of a collaborative team." It shouldn't be paid like commissioned work. It should be hourly.

write to your representatives to abolish the lower minimum wage for tipping

I was pretty pleased to get the chance to vote Yes on Initiative 77 in DC, 2 years ago, which would have eliminated the tipped minimum wage in DC, essentially meaning all workers had to be paid the regular minimum wage. Tipping would have mostly gone away as a result, achieving this goal of shifting the risk to employers and guaranteeing a wage to employees. Unfortunately, after passing in a public referendum* 55-45 the city council voted 8-5 to overturn the referendum.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/2/17928834/dc-city-council-vote-initiative-77

*for the record, a lot of wait staff in DC actually vocally opposed the referendum, as they did the math and they were earning >$15/hour with tips, or at the very least they were earning more than they otherwise would after tax, since they might not report all tips... and they were under the impression their incomes would go down if they were just getting paid $15/hr and people stopped tipping. I did feel for these workers, but ultimately voted Yes on the initiative because I determined these people were overwhelmingly working at upscale establishments, and did not represent the majority of less fortunately situated tipped workers at less ritzy establishments where less money is being spent and therefore tips are also less generous.

 

[Arhops]

why current restaurants should still expect tips:

• a lot of restaurants already have a hard enough time staying open without paying their staff
• if they raise prices to pay for staff they will drive away everybody who tips below average (and probably a lot of people in general because of how the whole cost can be seen upfront)
• how people pay at restaurants is a huge part of why they are so popular in the US
  • people who tip high do it for a reason and clearly aren't looking for a cheaper option
• they will get left with mostly people who tip averagely who don't have any particular reason to go to your restaurant compared to other ones that do expect tips
• because they lost a bunch of costumers they will probably go under and will also probably lose all of their employees since they will be paid way better at every restaurant that does expect tips (unless they give terrible service, which would be its own problem)

why you shouldn't ban it for everybody:

• you will piss a lot of people off (low tippers and high tippers)
• a lot of people will probably take it out on the restaurants
• either a huge portion of the restaurants in your state will go under/move states or if you ban it across the whole country the restaurant industry in the US will be severely damaged, which is pretty much bad for everybody

basically the already fragile restaurant industry in the US really doesn't need a new law that pisses off a bunch of their costumers. if you are a person who hates tipping you are most likely not as fond of restaurants in general as people who are fine with it/put up with it/like it are and by banning it you will probably end up hurting the restaurants and workers you think it will help more than just keeping the current system will. it's akin to if smogon listened to random people who complain online about smogon tiering and expected that to help smogon's popularity overall. smogon would piss off its current users and appease a bunch of random people who have no commitment to or even interest in smogon in the first place. therefore keeping tipping is the best option for restaurants and their employees, which i think should be the #1 priority here

 

[McGrrr]

A 10%/12.5%/15% tip is often automatically added to the bill in London and higher end restaurants elsewhere in the UK. I presume the reasoning is that:

• Tips are necessary to subsidise the cost of living in/near London
• Higher end restaurants generally offer better service

I can get behind both these arguments and have no qualm in paying the extra. The UK minimum wage tracks inflation, so we don't have the same systemic problems as the US does. There has also been a shortage of service staff in recent years, so relatively competitive pay has reflected that.

I moved away from London in 2014 to a small city in Northern England and I've never felt obligated to tip here. I do tip if I think the service has been above my expectations, but otherwise the staff are just doing what they're paid to do. As someone who dines out ~5 times a week, this quickly adds up.

 

[Diophantine]

Speaking as a Londoner here. We only ever tip if we feel the service has been extraordinary. I worked as a waiter in a Japanese restaurant. I would work my arse off for tips, and I earned them very well. I would have conversations with customers, sing them happy birthday, etc. I even somewhat playing along when older women tried to flirt with me lmao.

When I went to New York for training for my new job, I was always really surprised at how people expected me to tip. I remember having an interaction with someone at a bar who was serving me drinks. I went to buy a round of drinks for everyone I was with and the bartender demanded that I payed him a tip. I was so confused, as this had never happened to me before. I had heard about people always trying to scam foreigners in NY, so I naturally declined. The guy exploded on me, making me out to be an awful person and refused to serve me again (and telling his colleagues not to serve me).

My opinion is that tipping should be optional. Yes, when I was a waiter I got annoyed if people didn't tip, but I never expected them to. It's not their duty. They just came in to pay for the meal that they eat, and if they get some nice service along with it (if that's what they even want), then they can pay me personally if they feel like it. I don't understand how you can expect people to tip you when you haven't even made an effort to give them an excellent service.

 

[termi]

Speaking as a Londoner here. We only ever tip if we feel the service has been extraordinary. I worked as a waiter in a Japanese restaurant. I would work my arse off for tips, and I earned them very well. I would have conversations with customers, sing them happy birthday, etc. I even somewhat playing along when older women tried to flirt with me lmao.

When I went to New York for training for my new job, I was always really surprised at how people expected me to tip. I remember having an interaction with someone at a bar who was serving me drinks. I went to buy a round of drinks for everyone I was with and the bartender demanded that I payed him a tip. I was so confused, as this had never happened to me before. I had heard about people always trying to scam foreigners in NY, so I naturally declined. The guy exploded on me, making me out to be an awful person and refused to serve me again (and telling his colleagues not to serve me).

My opinion is that tipping should be optional. Yes, when I was a waiter I got annoyed if people didn't tip, but I never expected them to. It's not their duty. They just came in to pay for the meal that they eat, and if they get some nice service along with it (if that's what they even want), then they can pay me personally if they feel like it. I don't understand how you can expect people to tip you when you haven't even made an effort to give them an excellent service.

being a waiter in america is a terrible and dehumanizing job and often doesn't pay you anywhere near a living wage (especially given the insane cost of living in big cities like NYC). people with your mindset cause waiters to go hungry. if you're not poor yourself not tipping is inexcusable, seriously start doing it (this also goes for london btw given the cost of living there is also ridiculous, altho idk if london waiters have it quite as bad as americans)

 

[Wigglytuff]

if you don't tip, you're an asshole <- this alone is reason enough for me to tip, particularly on dates or the one time so far that i've had an interview for an internship conducted over dinner. and the types of places where you're expected to tip, i generally don't go to alone, so...yeah i don't think i've ever not tipped.

here's a question for you all: do you/have you ever tipped at fast food restaurants? i've never seen or done this, ever, except for the one time when a clearly rich and sheltered family gave me (cashier at a fast food restaurant) a $50 bill for a $23 order and was too lazy to take the change

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I was gonna not tip but my view quickly changed after getting called out by the official cheesecake factory corporate twitter account and Adam(from Adam Ruins Everything)

if you don't tip, you're an asshole <- this alone is reason enough for me to tip

 

[McGrrr]

people with your mindset cause waiters to go hungry

I disagree. It's the system that causes many waiters to go hungry. The other side of the coin is that some tipped employees earn more than they would on an above minimum basic wage without tips.

if you don't tip, you're an asshole

It's every customer's prerogative to tip or not to tip. I'm not going to call anybody a name for paying the advertised price for a good or service. Insisting on a tip is also a fuck you to any customer poor enough for whom it is a meaningful amount.

I consider the point of view that tipped employees should be entitled to other people's money as obnoxious as a customer choosing not to tip when it's necessary to top up low wages. It's two sides of the same problem, and anger should be directed towards to the system.

 

[termi]

I disagree. It's the system that causes many waiters to go hungry.

well yeah ofc it's primarily the system but until systemic change happens some solidarity with the waiters would be appreciated

The other side of the coin is that some tipped employees earn more than they would on an above minimum basic wage without tips.

if that is so, good for them! why should i care?

 

[McGrrr]

The subtle point is that I don't blame anybody for choosing not to play the game i.e. I was responding to your calling out of another forum member's decision not to tip.

The second point is that it's not uncommon for tipped employees to oppose change to the system because they personally benefit from it.

 

[p2]

Tipping in restaurants is fine (and pretty much standard everywhere you go?), think tipping elsewhere is a bit of a meme though. I never get takeaways delivered so never tipping drivers, never get taxis/uber so don't tip them, and I don't tip barbers either. (When I went every 4 weeks I got an extremely quick straight forward trim).

I cant get behind pushing tipping onto customers/make mandatory tipping, but I would also not like tipping to be abolished, seeing another £100 or so added onto the paychecks every month is lush

 

[Ashaebi]

A tip by definition is an act of generosity by the consumer to demonstrate his or her satisfaction to the product or service received, meaning manditory tipping by definition is an oxymoron.

From where I am tipping is certainly not expected in anything but I certainly am willing to tip if the good or service I receive is truly exceptional. So if you are someone who works in a industry where there is a culture revolving tipping, if you want tips, prove you're worthy of it and work hard to earn it. If your consumer doesn't rip you then tough luck. I worked in a cafe when I'm 20 years old, the only time I worked in an industry where tipping is even considered and all employees had an expectation that if you are tipped, we should be grateful and consider ourselves fortunate and not something the consumer is obligated to do.

I say keep it that way

 

[Machoke]

A tip by definition is an act of generosity by the consumer to demonstrate his or her satisfaction to the product or service received, meaning manditory tipping by definition is an oxymoron.

From where I am tipping is certainly not expected in anything but I certainly am willing to tip if the good or service I receive is truly exceptional. So if you are someone who works in a industry where there is a culture revolving tipping, if you want tips, prove you're worthy of it and work hard to earn it. If your consumer doesn't rip you then tough luck. I worked in a cafe when I'm 20 years old, the only time I worked in an industry where tipping is even considered and all employees had an expectation that if you are tipped, we should be grateful and consider ourselves fortunate and not something the consumer is obligated to do.

I say keep it that way

Edit: I just saw from a diff thread that you're from Australia- do waiters earn a living wage there without tips?


The problem with this take is that it doesn't matter what the definition of tips is supposed to be- some jobs rely on them quite heavily. I do deliveries and I earn under minimum wage and tips are supposed to make up the difference. If no one tipped I wouldn't earn a livable wage (tbh I barely do in the first place and it's only because of my current living situation which is pretty inexpensive).
Some restaurants have waiters earning 2 dollars base pay and then the rest is tips. If people don't tip it's not tough luck it's labor going uncompensated and it's the possibility of not making ends meet.
I'm talking about the US, maybe you're from a different country which is very different from here and I understand in some places tips are not necessary so keep that in mind.
I would love to live in a place where people received the full value of their labor and were able to live without worrying what their paycheck was. In a place like that tips are definitely not necessary. But in the US at least where the understanding of most waiters, some delivery drivers, etc is that you're working for tips, people should always tip no matter what.


Edit2: I want to clarify that conceptually I'm against tipping and I think it's a ridiculous practice, but so long as there are people that rely on tips to live then people should always tip. I think tipping shouldn't be a thing and instead people should earn a living wage no matter the profession but it seems we are a long way from there, at least in the US.

 

[MegaFlareon]

I usually tip people especially when they do a decent job at assisting me. It's my way of showing thanks and appreciation to that person. I know that those people do not earn much so the tip I give would definitely help them in ways such as eating better food for lunch/dinner, more funds to pay their bills, etc.

That said, tipping is supposed to be voluntary and no employee should be angry if a customer does not give a tip. I'm also annoyed by people who ask for a tip before I give them (it's supposed to be voluntary from the customer), though I give them tip anyway. I'd agree OP's point on employers' exploitation too, companies wanting to decrease costs by having customers subsidize the employees' earnings. I believe the solution here is for the governments to raise the minimum wage and employers should comply, though that is another issue.

I also noticed that bars are a great source for employees who want to get good amounts of tip. Drunk people are usually less careful with their money and I've seen my drunk friends give huge amounts of tip to bar employees providing great service.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Here in the UK, there isn't really that big a tipping culture, as there's a good amount of workplace protections that make it less "necessary" than in places like America. I personally give a ~£5 tip if the service has been good. Good being, well, what I would expect: a well-mannered individual that does their job without problems. For a waiter in a restaurant, for instance, that would be simply getting the food to the table. No need to deflect poor food to them when they aren't the ones preparing it most of the time. A little something like that goes a long way, hell, I've made friends because of it.

So really, the only people I wouldn't tip are genuinely bad-mannered dickheads.

 

[Prof_J]

In America there's an unwritten social rule that tipping is mandatory for jobs where people collect tips. That's just how it is. Those jobs have traditionally been common lines of work for people between the age of 15-25, so we probably feel it's necessary because of empathy, we know that's all the $ they take home, and a lot can relate to being a server in a dump that has to pay off something. That's my theory, because that's why I tip most of the time. No tips for clearly bad service, though.

Regardless of your opinion, if you pay for a group in an American restaurant, you should plan on tipping or else you will look like an asshole. The only way out of that is if everyone agrees that the service was terrible.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I live in the UK and worked in a casino for over 3 years. Receiving tips is great, and you get a lot of them as a dealer. Ever since receiving tips I've been more inclined to tip myself for services provided. Before the casino however, I don't think I ever really tipped, and I certainly never feel pressured to do so either. Waiters and other service jobs tend to have a minimum wage regardless, and service from what I can tell isn't really effected (you'll get the same service, regardless of tipping). I think this is a far more friendly and better system, perhaps something Americans should adopt (offering $2 an hour is deplorable from employees, but then again I don't think I'd ever work for $2 an hour expecting to be paid in tips). Tips are nice, but I never relied on them as a source of income, and I never changed the way I dealt depending on whether I got tips or not, they were just a bonus.

Do a good job regardless, and don't expect tips.