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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
- Start date
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Or Gothita LOLO.
New to Ubers metagame:
Checking the current iteration of the ubers viability ranking thread, Starmie is no where to be seen. I've personally found Starmie useful as an offensive rapid spinner- if its spinning duties are not required, it can do well as a cleaner. Many ubers offensive threats are slower than it, and natural cure can be incredibly useful against stall. It sits at a good speed tier for the ubers metagame, allowing it to get many revenge kills with boltbeam coverage. I feel that it warrants at least a C-rank. Excadrill maybe everyone's favourite spinner, but for a special attacking spinner with epic speed and boltbeam, Starmie is without comparison.
Checking the current iteration of the ubers viability ranking thread, Starmie is no where to be seen. I've personally found Starmie useful as an offensive rapid spinner- if its spinning duties are not required, it can do well as a cleaner. Many ubers offensive threats are slower than it, and natural cure can be incredibly useful against stall. It sits at a good speed tier for the ubers metagame, allowing it to get many revenge kills with boltbeam coverage. I feel that it warrants at least a C-rank. Excadrill maybe everyone's favourite spinner, but for a special attacking spinner with epic speed and boltbeam, Starmie is without comparison.
I wouldn't call starmie effective as an offensive mon nor as a cleaner, base 100SpA is pitiful by uber standards since most uninvested ubers can easily take a hit from one of starmie's coverage moves and ohko in return (assuming they switch, if they don't switch then LOL 100SpA isn't doing shit). Natural cure is fucking garbage. There are better users that are better suited to dealing with stall.
Boltbeam doesn't mean much when you're piss weak. Spinning isn't an important niche given the massive opportunity cost of using starmie (a full teamslot) where it has little chance to spin and can't switch into anything thanks to its frail 60/85/85 defenses. It has nice speed and spinning and it is admittedly the fastest rapid spinner but spinning isn't a good niche in ubers when you're deadweight outside of that. Starmie is fine staying unranked.
I'm going to try to reword what I'm saying because it doesn't look like I'm expressing what I'm meaning.
Ho-Oh was noticably nerfed by the removal of permanent weather. It lost access to perma sun which could largely compensate for an inability to remove SR as well as efficient sand and rain reliant Rapid Spinners to add to the variety of viable means to remove the hazard.
Quick reminder on what sun did for Ho-Oh. It removed its water-type weakness, crippled Thunder, and heavily increased the damage output of Sacred Fire. This meant that, under sun, the only means to KO Ho-Oh was through strong physical attacks, Stone Edge, or Bolt Strike. (and that's assuming SR is in play) All of these users are very vulnerable to Sacred Fire which is likely to be used more often because of the boost. If you wanted to expand your options you needed to change the weather. These advantages compensated for those times where you were unable to remove SR when playing against more defensive teams.
Viable anti-SR measures in BW2: (as in, viable in reliably supporting Ho-Oh)
-Cloyster
-Sand Excadrill
-Kabutops
-sorta Magic Bounce
Viable anti-SR measures in XY:
-Cloyster
-Webs Excadrill
Forretress, Tentacruel, rain Excadrill, Defog Arceus, and other random Defog users are all either easy to pressure, easy to punish, or have difficulty in repeatedly removing Stealth Rock. Just because Support Arceus is bulky doesn't mean it can get around fast Taunt or afford to be switching in every time SR is up and Defogging, especially when it is already a momentum dropper. (and some SR setters, like Dialga, can switch in on the Defog and replace the hazard)
All this to say that Ho-Oh was only superficially buffed in XY. In reality, the number of viable means to support it so that its advantages can be used are limited. It doesn't have as many reliable ways to handle Stealth Rock nor sunlight to compensate for the turns that the hazard is present.
Some quick nitpicks:
-reading too far was directed at Haruno
-gg no re was directed at Heatran not getting a second chance after Earthquake
-Water Arceus was not an effective Ho-Oh check on sun, nor did it have good synergy on rain. It was only effective as a Ho-Oh check on sand, which had more difficulty in fighting the weather war. (Water Arceus can't check if sun is up)
-Roost Gliscor is a recent thing but it can do some impressive stuff, js
-Electric Arceus is only barely 2HKO'd by Sacred Fire while Judgment OHKOs after Stealth Rock. It can still switch in on Roost, Brave Bird, or Substitute. Earthquake hurts more than Sacred Fire but it's nowhere near a OHKO either. Burning Electric Arceus protects it from Toxic. It's not a perfect check but it's definitely a viable one and something that is fairly easy to fit onto a team.
-Lugiass doesn't mind burns much because that protects it from something it really hates: Toxic. It doesn't mind burns even less when you remember that you are using repeatedly using Defog to remove SR.
(Is that better?)
Ho-Oh was noticably nerfed by the removal of permanent weather. It lost access to perma sun which could largely compensate for an inability to remove SR as well as efficient sand and rain reliant Rapid Spinners to add to the variety of viable means to remove the hazard.
Quick reminder on what sun did for Ho-Oh. It removed its water-type weakness, crippled Thunder, and heavily increased the damage output of Sacred Fire. This meant that, under sun, the only means to KO Ho-Oh was through strong physical attacks, Stone Edge, or Bolt Strike. (and that's assuming SR is in play) All of these users are very vulnerable to Sacred Fire which is likely to be used more often because of the boost. If you wanted to expand your options you needed to change the weather. These advantages compensated for those times where you were unable to remove SR when playing against more defensive teams.
Viable anti-SR measures in BW2: (as in, viable in reliably supporting Ho-Oh)
-Cloyster
-Sand Excadrill
-Kabutops
-sorta Magic Bounce
Viable anti-SR measures in XY:
-Cloyster
-Webs Excadrill
Forretress, Tentacruel, rain Excadrill, Defog Arceus, and other random Defog users are all either easy to pressure, easy to punish, or have difficulty in repeatedly removing Stealth Rock. Just because Support Arceus is bulky doesn't mean it can get around fast Taunt or afford to be switching in every time SR is up and Defogging, especially when it is already a momentum dropper. (and some SR setters, like Dialga, can switch in on the Defog and replace the hazard)
All this to say that Ho-Oh was only superficially buffed in XY. In reality, the number of viable means to support it so that its advantages can be used are limited. It doesn't have as many reliable ways to handle Stealth Rock nor sunlight to compensate for the turns that the hazard is present.
Some quick nitpicks:
-reading too far was directed at Haruno
-gg no re was directed at Heatran not getting a second chance after Earthquake
-Water Arceus was not an effective Ho-Oh check on sun, nor did it have good synergy on rain. It was only effective as a Ho-Oh check on sand, which had more difficulty in fighting the weather war. (Water Arceus can't check if sun is up)
-Roost Gliscor is a recent thing but it can do some impressive stuff, js
-Electric Arceus is only barely 2HKO'd by Sacred Fire while Judgment OHKOs after Stealth Rock. It can still switch in on Roost, Brave Bird, or Substitute. Earthquake hurts more than Sacred Fire but it's nowhere near a OHKO either. Burning Electric Arceus protects it from Toxic. It's not a perfect check but it's definitely a viable one and something that is fairly easy to fit onto a team.
-Lugiass doesn't mind burns much because that protects it from something it really hates: Toxic. It doesn't mind burns even less when you remember that you are using repeatedly using Defog to remove SR.
(Is that better?)
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Tl:dr why the fuck are you comparing 5th gen ho oh to 6th gen Ho oh and basing your ranking around this "comparison?"
Ho oh's current performance in the metagame should be the sole purpose of how/why it is ranked. No one gives a shit that gengar was absolute shit in 5th gen, that has no bearing on its actual placement this gen.
Here are facts though.
Sr is harder to keep on field
Weather is no longer permanent
Special moves got nerfed
Ho oh is bulky as fuck and bulky ho oh and it's variants can tank even super effective STAB special attacks. (You'll need attacks stronger than lustrous kias hydro pump to guarantee an ohko on 252hp Ho oh.)
Rock moves are usually suboptimal and not used on most threats (fuck rock slide deo-a/greninja)
Ho oh has amazing coverage with just two moves and sacred fire is broken as shit.
In response to your points
-waterceus is a mediocre check to ho oh period. And struggles to switchin on LO/band
-replay with gliscor putting in work please. Though I can see its use it also struggles as a check since band BB 2hkos and if you're using scor as a defogger then it outright loses to burn.
-you failed to factor in burn chance or sr on oh oh's side when using eleceus as an example while saying eleceus will be up against Ho oh after taking sr damage? How does that comparison work? Not to mention tbolt > judgment but meh. Don't see why you mentioned how burning eleceus means it can't get poisoned is a good statement.
-Lugia doesn't minds burns? Don't even know how to respond to this.
Ho oh's current performance in the metagame should be the sole purpose of how/why it is ranked. No one gives a shit that gengar was absolute shit in 5th gen, that has no bearing on its actual placement this gen.
Here are facts though.
Sr is harder to keep on field
Weather is no longer permanent
Special moves got nerfed
Ho oh is bulky as fuck and bulky ho oh and it's variants can tank even super effective STAB special attacks. (You'll need attacks stronger than lustrous kias hydro pump to guarantee an ohko on 252hp Ho oh.)
Rock moves are usually suboptimal and not used on most threats (fuck rock slide deo-a/greninja)
Ho oh has amazing coverage with just two moves and sacred fire is broken as shit.
In response to your points
-waterceus is a mediocre check to ho oh period. And struggles to switchin on LO/band
-replay with gliscor putting in work please. Though I can see its use it also struggles as a check since band BB 2hkos and if you're using scor as a defogger then it outright loses to burn.
-you failed to factor in burn chance or sr on oh oh's side when using eleceus as an example while saying eleceus will be up against Ho oh after taking sr damage? How does that comparison work? Not to mention tbolt > judgment but meh. Don't see why you mentioned how burning eleceus means it can't get poisoned is a good statement.
-Lugia doesn't minds burns? Don't even know how to respond to this.
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Stealth rocks are not harder to keep on the field if you actually look at how kabutops and excadrill were nearly guaranteed with smart play to get a spin off before going down depending on opposing team set up. Same with how webs teams are pretty inept at keeping it up majority of the time, same can be done with SR in different manners (yes I know its a shaky comparison I dare you to use this to discredit everything I say). Rest of the facts are true except its 248 hp ho-oh fyi. Like MM2 two said, roost gligar which outspeeds, and how can you say SR is harder to keep up, yet use it to say Eleceus isn't that effective a check. Also for a cm sweeper like eleceus, toxic is much worse than burns, and for lugia he said it doesn't mind burns compared to toxic as Lugia still has massive bulk without multiscale and can still wall things at around 80%.
Nope, that's not how it worked.
I agree with Melee Mewtwo generally though, defog Arceus are really passive and prone to toxic so you will need a cleric to play out defog balance to have a chance vs toxic spam. Sun Ho-oh teams were always the opposite of reactive back in gen5, and it is still how you want to play them, meaning your best bet in sun offense is Cloyster for your countermeasures to entry hazards. However, Ho-oh is still very viable on a multitude of teams- its physically defensive set fits very well on stall as it easier things vs conventional stallbreakers like stalltwo while not being darkceus weak like lugia. On stall defog is easier to carry out as you will have both shadow tag countermeasures (pursuit) and a cleric on those teams. And even then, you can just slap on Ho-oh on a team if you really wanna blow some holes against certain match ups, even though the whole defog Arceus concept will easily fall to specialized threats like Gothitelle (who are much more niche and match up reliant than defog Arceus). Point being, XY is match up based as fuck and you are sadly going to to accept losses with any team. Ho-oh itself is an excellent mon that can be good against most match ups, A-rank is very justified for it even though I don't like it much.
MM2 I dont really get how you can bring the loss of perma sun as your main argument and follow that up with saying Excadrill and Kabutops was viable suporters of ho-oh.(Also the loss of perma rain is in ho ohs favor so its not all bad) Defog works okey for balance/stall because you can run a cleric. Cloyster is still on the same level as in gen5 so not much changed there. I think its just that sun offense lost a lot of its archetype made it worse but I dont think Ho-Oh as a mon in it self got any worse. Standard Sun lost Lati and the steel nerf for gene really hurt. And the fact that everyone is running Stone Edge on everything has imo hurt it more then anything else.
I m using Xatu + Damp Rock Groudon + Ho-Oh cuz real but actually
You're overstating it. Water-weakness removal is only relevant for Palkia as Kyogre summons its own rain and no other common Ubers sweeper uses Water-type attacks. Likewise, the most common user of Thunder is Kyogre, which again summons its own rain, and Thunder is growing increasingly less common on Palkia (Toxic rest is new standard) and Dialga (usually runs Toxic), not to mention Ho-Oh has the raw bulk to tank unSTAB Thunder. The power boost to Sacred Fire, again, is only relevant on walls such as Lugia and Gliscor, who are both still shaky checks, and it is still a quite spammable move due to its 50% burn rate. Furthermore, most users of Stone Edge were Tyranitar (who has sand), Terrakion (who can't switch in anyway since it doesn't resist Brave Bird and sucks this gen lol) or Reshiram (who can't be burned and is quite uncommon).
Again, you are placing too much importance on sun and not enough on Ho-Oh itself. You are also acting like sun isn't ever going to be up this gen - it's certainly harder to make use of, but Groudon and Ho-Oh still have quite solid synergy with each other just on their own merits, so it still does get the chance to make use of sun.
This comparison is laughable to me. First of all, you can go ahead and take Kabutops off that list since no one is running Ho-Oh with Kabutops (and if they are then that kills your sun argument). Magic Bounce was extremely unreliable in the first place since Espeon only worked once (and if your argument is consistency then you might as well not include Espeon) and Xatu could only stop defensive setters like Ferrothorn and falters to Dialga/offensive Groudon. Cloyster and Excadrill still work in this metagame, even Rain Excadrill since it sets Stealth Rock and can beat Dialga, Zekrom, and Klefki. Defog on top of that means we have MORE ways to keep hazards in check this gen.
And no, Defog Arceus doesn't suck. Water/Fairy Arceus softcheck a lot of Pokemon and usually find a lot of opportunities to come in. Ghost Arceus checks Mewtwo/Ekiller and can't be trapped, and gives free turns to few Pokemon thanks to its potent STAB. More niche types such as Rock and Grass can still find use on some teams. Arceus is also far bulkier/easier to fit into a team than any Spinner and it's ability to clear hazards cannot be stopped simply by using a Ghost like it was so easy to do in 5th gen. Giratina-O and Mega Scizor aren't as good at Defogging, but they still work well and are much easier to teambuild with than things like Cloyster or Magic Bounce.
And fast Taunt? The only common Taunt user faster than Arceus is Mewtwo. Does 120 Speed not mean anything to you?
Overall, Ho-Oh is still better in XY than in BW2, it's not merely superficial. Most of your arguments are stemming from the following faulty premises:
-Ho-Oh was some sort of demigod in BW2 compared to what it is now
-Ho-Oh relies on sun to be an offensive threat
-Ho-Oh requires too much support because it is x4 SR weak
-Defog is too inconsistent of a hazard control strategy to be viable
When in reality:
-Ho-Oh was great in BW2 but is honestly better now since Defog is harder to stop (not saying it can't be stopped at all but it is still better than relying exclusively on Spin) and it can fit in more teams due to more options for hazard control being present
-Ho-Oh does not need sun to be an offensive threat, sun is merely a bonus and Ho-Oh can work on other types of teams (like sand or even rain as teams that relied on sun tended to be Ho-Oh weak themselves, how bout them apples) besides. Ho-Oh also fits extremely well on defensive teams since it checks a ton of stuff.
-Ho-Oh is well worth hazard control support, which benefits not only it but the other Pokemon on its team, so its in no way overly specialized.
-Arceus is much more likely to get off a Defog than Forretress, Tops (who btw is not a consistent spinner since it loses to Giratina and is extremely frail), Cruel, or Drill getting a spin past Giratina or Ghostceus. If anything its way more consistent than Rapid Spin. Yeah I acknowledge that Defog isn't perfect, can be removed with Shadow Tag likes tons of other things, and that most Defoggers can be Toxiced and worn down but even one or two Defog uses in a game is better than not being able to spin at all unless your name is Cloyster...who is still viable. You can also run a cleric, of which there are much more viable users (limited to Blissey in Gen 5, but now in Gen 6 we have Xerneas, Sylveon, and Clefable all of which are useful in their own ways).
My bad on the first two, wasn't clear.
Waterceus could still tank Sacred Fire fairly well (doesn't 2HKO in Sun) and Toxicstall it, though yeah Judge won't do much in sun and I agree it doesn't work so well on rain teams. It still existed before though.
Roost Gliscor is probably cool but it also costs it a moveslot (which means you lose SR or Taunt which is a steep price to pay).
You don't think its sad Eleceus needs SR to OHKO Ho-Oh with a STAB super effective attack? It's better than most things but its a really squishy check.
Lugia still doesn't like being burned since it makes abusing Multiscale much harder and forces it to recover more. It does give it Toxic immunity but it's not like it suddenly has Magic Guard lol.
Not really lol.
That being said, I am fine with it dropping to A, but no more than that. A- is too low and your comparisons to how everything was better in Gen 5 are extremely flawed.
Haruno, I'm using the comparison to gen 5 as a means to talk about Ho-Oh in gen 6. You can pretty much take out everything that has to do with Gen 5 and still have an analysis of Ho-Oh in gen 6. Gen 5 is just a reference point I'm using.
Kebabe, it looks like my point still isn't being expressed properly. Basically, I'm trying to say Ho-Oh could deal with SR better last gen than it can this gen. Sun helped deal with SR because it made Ho-Oh that much more dangerous to compensate for half its HP being gone. Rain and sand helped by giving Kabutops and Excadrill. Different ways to deal with the same problem.
No, what you're trying to say is that you don't like Ho-Oh/Defog Arceus and are trying to argue with misconceptions of what the hazards game in Gen 5 was like. It's not that your point isn't being expressed properly, its that your overall point is weak - Fireburn
Kebabe, it looks like my point still isn't being expressed properly. Basically, I'm trying to say Ho-Oh could deal with SR better last gen than it can this gen. Sun helped deal with SR because it made Ho-Oh that much more dangerous to compensate for half its HP being gone. Rain and sand helped by giving Kabutops and Excadrill. Different ways to deal with the same problem.
No, what you're trying to say is that you don't like Ho-Oh/Defog Arceus and are trying to argue with misconceptions of what the hazards game in Gen 5 was like. It's not that your point isn't being expressed properly, its that your overall point is weak - Fireburn
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Somehow its true what Melee wants to say. Defog makes it easier to come in. But if you play it smart the opponent will have a hard time to use defog. And i don t really see a problem in Excadrill. I won with a Rain+Sand Team a tour and actually always swept with Exca. Don t see the problem. Btw i m using both Exca and Hooh. Fun fact i m using a spinner no defog user since there aren t too many Ghosttypes these days and i can easily spin actually. but tbh i didn t even read all stuff here and i m just talking about melees last post
Fucking fireburn posting when I did. ):<
Clearly I have an issue with expression since a lot of the nuance I intended was missed.
When I mention sun, I'm talking about what it did in Gen 5. As for sun in gen 6, having perma sun was important from a defensive standpoint because you couldn't just wait a couple turns out, you had to actively change the weather. (it's a nice bonus and I'm not ignoring it but it doesn't compensate for having SR on your side like perma sun does)
If I'm placing this much importance on sun, it's because my arguments are centered around the small nuance of A vs A-. Of course Ho-Oh is a great mon, I'm not challenging that in the slightest.
I liked my rain Ho-Oh team, it did quite well but if you want to challenge Kabutops I'm willing to accept that margin of error from personal bias. Not going to extend the same deal to Magic Bounce since I'm already grudgingly acknowledging its limited results even though I dislike it strongly myself.
The list I provided are viable exclusively in the role of supporting Ho-Oh. I have no problem with all the Pokemon and sets I excluded from the list when I'm not using them for something as demanding as keeping Stealth Rock off the field for Ho-Oh to perform.
Darkrai, Thundy, Deoxys, and Gengar. :p
The premises are fairly off which shows how badly I'm expressing myself. It'ss more like
-Ho-Oh needs anti-SR support for it to benefit the team it is on
-Anti-SR support needs to be able to not force the user to play reactively as the turns spent with SR in play has already left the team vulnerable and increases the odds of SR being put into play again (meaning even more work for the anti-SR mon)
-Perma sun significant boosts help compensate for the presence of SR
-The Defog users are either massive momentum droppers or easily pressured from doing their job
Side tracking to comment on:
-LO sand Excadrill OHKO'd the spin blockers after SD oO. Exception is Phys Def Tina-A but the teams you'll see that mon on will need more than SR to stop Ho-Oh.
(I know I said I was willing to give you Tops cause of bias but I still want to give it a defense even if I've already resigned the point)
-Kabutops wasn't as effective but it could still beat out a Tina-O with smart play and Ghost Arc had a hard time coming in on rain-boosted Waterfalls. Tina-A is again on a teamarchetype that you aren't super pressured to be getting rid of SR against.
Saw your edit after typing this but fuck it, posting. Going to stick something though.
Also you are right that I dislike Ho-Oh + Defog Arceus. I'm using Gen 5 as a reference point but I don't need to. It's not me being nostalgic about gen 5 that I dislike this teamarchetype, it's that the archetype just sucks. I've consistently seen it play very reactively to the opponent because for the Ho-Oh player removing SR was capital in winning. (Blim in botw + Blim vs aim in SPL off the top of my head) It took just a tad bit of smart play to abuse this fact and force the hand of the Ho-Oh team to bring out the Defog Arceus to feed offensive threats free turns to deal damage + abuse a handful of turns SR is up to bring out a threat only SR-less Ho-Oh would have been able to check. Gen 5 could never have happened and I would still think this archetype is shit.
Clearly I have an issue with expression since a lot of the nuance I intended was missed.
When I mention sun, I'm talking about what it did in Gen 5. As for sun in gen 6, having perma sun was important from a defensive standpoint because you couldn't just wait a couple turns out, you had to actively change the weather. (it's a nice bonus and I'm not ignoring it but it doesn't compensate for having SR on your side like perma sun does)
If I'm placing this much importance on sun, it's because my arguments are centered around the small nuance of A vs A-. Of course Ho-Oh is a great mon, I'm not challenging that in the slightest.
I liked my rain Ho-Oh team, it did quite well but if you want to challenge Kabutops I'm willing to accept that margin of error from personal bias. Not going to extend the same deal to Magic Bounce since I'm already grudgingly acknowledging its limited results even though I dislike it strongly myself.
The list I provided are viable exclusively in the role of supporting Ho-Oh. I have no problem with all the Pokemon and sets I excluded from the list when I'm not using them for something as demanding as keeping Stealth Rock off the field for Ho-Oh to perform.
Darkrai, Thundy, Deoxys, and Gengar. :p
The premises are fairly off which shows how badly I'm expressing myself. It'ss more like
-Ho-Oh needs anti-SR support for it to benefit the team it is on
-Anti-SR support needs to be able to not force the user to play reactively as the turns spent with SR in play has already left the team vulnerable and increases the odds of SR being put into play again (meaning even more work for the anti-SR mon)
-Perma sun significant boosts help compensate for the presence of SR
-The Defog users are either massive momentum droppers or easily pressured from doing their job
Side tracking to comment on:
-LO sand Excadrill OHKO'd the spin blockers after SD oO. Exception is Phys Def Tina-A but the teams you'll see that mon on will need more than SR to stop Ho-Oh.
(I know I said I was willing to give you Tops cause of bias but I still want to give it a defense even if I've already resigned the point)
-Kabutops wasn't as effective but it could still beat out a Tina-O with smart play and Ghost Arc had a hard time coming in on rain-boosted Waterfalls. Tina-A is again on a teamarchetype that you aren't super pressured to be getting rid of SR against.
Saw your edit after typing this but fuck it, posting. Going to stick something though.
Also you are right that I dislike Ho-Oh + Defog Arceus. I'm using Gen 5 as a reference point but I don't need to. It's not me being nostalgic about gen 5 that I dislike this teamarchetype, it's that the archetype just sucks. I've consistently seen it play very reactively to the opponent because for the Ho-Oh player removing SR was capital in winning. (Blim in botw + Blim vs aim in SPL off the top of my head) It took just a tad bit of smart play to abuse this fact and force the hand of the Ho-Oh team to bring out the Defog Arceus to feed offensive threats free turns to deal damage + abuse a handful of turns SR is up to bring out a threat only SR-less Ho-Oh would have been able to check. Gen 5 could never have happened and I would still think this archetype is shit.
I know, and I'm saying that losing permasun has not significantly affected Ho-Oh that much. My point is that you are vastly overstating the importance of sun - it was a bonus, not a necessity, and that was all it ever was. It's not nearly important enough to warrant a rank drop.
Deoxys with Taunt is always gonna be a suicide lead, Gengar is obviously annoying (not going to get into that now), Thundy is frail and not TERRIBLY common (is a good mon though ngl) and Darkrai wasn't mentioned since its obvious Dark Void screws over everything lol.
Needing AntiSR support is why Ho-Oh isn't S, not why it isn't A or A+.
The proactive SR removers (Excadrill and Cloyster) still exist and the other options serve to give Ho-Oh greater flexibility in fitting into teams which is a clear buff. Hazard removal is inherently reactive, yes, but I don't see what your point is or how it applies specifically to Ho-Oh.
Permasun doesn't compensate for SR, Regenerator + Ho-Oh's natural bulk and power do. Again, permasun is just a bonus.
The 4th bullet I feel like is similar to the second which I already answered. It is much easier to pressure/stop nonCloyster Spinners then it is Defog Arceus though.
Sand Drill didn't run Mold Breaker = couldn't OHKO the most common spinblocker Giratina-O.
The problem with Kabutops was that it both has trouble breaking Giratina AND is super frail, which meant that most of the time you would either not Spin to preserve Tops and anytime you clicked Rapid Spin you were risking your Kabutops dying, which is not always a worthwhile trade given how much of a threat Tops is under rain. But you already conceded Kabutops so w/e.
Dunno why you keep bringing up Blim vs me when you even admitted yourself Blim had the team advantage, all he really had to do to win was kill my Arceus-Water with Mega Gengar which meant I lost to Scarf Kyogre, Ho-Oh was more of a backup win con if he took out Lando instead. I only won that battle because I predicted perfectly against Mega Gengar which I think we can agree is not a consistent strategy. We could discuss Mega Gengar more but that's for another day.
Blim's team vs aim was Palkia weak which was why he was forced to basically let Arceus die to get rid of it, if he had a better Palkia check (his Dialga was offensive and not Scarfed, see the turn against Yveltal) then Waterceus would have had a lot more freedom in that battle. It wasn't because of the threat of SR Blim was forced to play reactively, it was because of his team's weakness to Palkia which put him on the back foot since Turn 1. Even with SR up Ho-Oh was still able to beat Mega Blaziken so it's not like it was completely useless either.
Disclaimer: Blim is a great Ubers player and I'm not downplaying him at all, just trying to give my take on your examples.
Anyway you already conceded Ho-Oh at A so I think we can end this discussion now and move on to more interesting things. :P
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Just asking, why is Deoxys-Normal even on this list? It has no real capability (unless living a Kanghaskan Fake Out), cannot achieve Deo-A's sheer power, cannot achieve Deo-D's sheer bulk, and cannot achieve Deo-S's sheer speed. Tbh I would just remove it.
At least Chansey has the niche of being bulkier than Blissey, Bugceus can somewhat deal with Grassceus and Lati@s, and Iceceus can destroy dragons.
(this argument may be bad, my first time dealing with viability rankings)
At least Chansey has the niche of being bulkier than Blissey, Bugceus can somewhat deal with Grassceus and Lati@s, and Iceceus can destroy dragons.
(this argument may be bad, my first time dealing with viability rankings)
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Also just saying I run roost gliscor..
The set I run is:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 208 Def / 252 HP / 44 Spd
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
I know you guys are thinking.. no toxic? I know toxic is good on their but you've essentially got to choose out of 5 or so moves (those 4 + toxic + I guess stuff like sub protect and lol ice fang) so you choose what fits your team, but it anti-leads slow groudon, stops ferrothorn causing trouble, sets up rocks reasonably nicely, is not stopped by zekrom, and it an alright status absorber. It should never be a team's only way to check ho-oh but it in conjunction with another couple of checks such as phys def lugia and waterceus it functions quite nicely.
The set I run is:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 208 Def / 252 HP / 44 Spd
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Earthquake
I know you guys are thinking.. no toxic? I know toxic is good on their but you've essentially got to choose out of 5 or so moves (those 4 + toxic + I guess stuff like sub protect and lol ice fang) so you choose what fits your team, but it anti-leads slow groudon, stops ferrothorn causing trouble, sets up rocks reasonably nicely, is not stopped by zekrom, and it an alright status absorber. It should never be a team's only way to check ho-oh but it in conjunction with another couple of checks such as phys def lugia and waterceus it functions quite nicely.
Tyranitar needs his own mega-evo image in the OP.
Requesting Charizard to be moved down to C+.
Charizard Y is frankly, really bad. I honestly think that Donkey just commented about it to see if you guys were gullible enough to include it on viability list lol. It only can switch in THREE times MAXIMUM into SR. If it get ANY prior damage, you can change that number into two. And you guys were arguing that Ho-Oh is somewhat bad because of SR, and now Charizard Y is still being considered as a credible threat SMH. Common stuff like waterceus, eleceus, palkia, blissey, zekrom, tyranitar, ho-oh, and even mewtwo can switch in and force it out. What about blast burn? Ok, you managed to kill 1 mon, and now you're wide open for a set up opportunity to sweep you. =/ Charizard Y is essentially unviable, and it's honestly comedic that anyone in spl even used it.
Now, Charizard X is more credible. It does have a niche in sticky team as a strong SD sweeper. However:
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 148-175 (49.6 - 58.7%)
So, any attempt to sweep an offensive team will fall flat, since SR probably will be up and Charizard has to switch into SR before mega-evolving. If you roost, then you'll probably get owned by whatever offensive team can hit you with. And, Charizard X is really bad on non-sticky teams, since it requires DD to be able to sweep. However, the intimidate spam and strong grounds pretty much stops it from being able to sweep. Also, Blaziken CLEARLY outclasses Charizard X for this particular role, since it's less weak to SR and is able to protect for +1 and threatens to revenge kill or sweep. So basically, Charizard X has a place on sticky, but sucks vs offense. And, on pretty much any other team, you'd want to use Blaziken over this.
Now, we can look at C definition:
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.
AFIAK, charizard shines only on sticky teams, and that should be considered as "specific roles" and sticky requires TREMENDOUS amount of support (goth, shuckle, and taunters). And, it does suffer from opportunity cost, in the form of occupying megastone for better megas such as blaziken on virtually any other teams. And, even if it is given correct support, it simply cannot beat offensive teams due to extreme weakness to hazards and priority, which is worsen by the fact that inherent flaw with sticky teams that it can't afford to invest yet other team slot to spin most of time.
Charizard Y is frankly, really bad. I honestly think that Donkey just commented about it to see if you guys were gullible enough to include it on viability list lol. It only can switch in THREE times MAXIMUM into SR. If it get ANY prior damage, you can change that number into two. And you guys were arguing that Ho-Oh is somewhat bad because of SR, and now Charizard Y is still being considered as a credible threat SMH. Common stuff like waterceus, eleceus, palkia, blissey, zekrom, tyranitar, ho-oh, and even mewtwo can switch in and force it out. What about blast burn? Ok, you managed to kill 1 mon, and now you're wide open for a set up opportunity to sweep you. =/ Charizard Y is essentially unviable, and it's honestly comedic that anyone in spl even used it.
Now, Charizard X is more credible. It does have a niche in sticky team as a strong SD sweeper. However:
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 148-175 (49.6 - 58.7%)
So, any attempt to sweep an offensive team will fall flat, since SR probably will be up and Charizard has to switch into SR before mega-evolving. If you roost, then you'll probably get owned by whatever offensive team can hit you with. And, Charizard X is really bad on non-sticky teams, since it requires DD to be able to sweep. However, the intimidate spam and strong grounds pretty much stops it from being able to sweep. Also, Blaziken CLEARLY outclasses Charizard X for this particular role, since it's less weak to SR and is able to protect for +1 and threatens to revenge kill or sweep. So basically, Charizard X has a place on sticky, but sucks vs offense. And, on pretty much any other team, you'd want to use Blaziken over this.
Now, we can look at C definition:
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.
AFIAK, charizard shines only on sticky teams, and that should be considered as "specific roles" and sticky requires TREMENDOUS amount of support (goth, shuckle, and taunters). And, it does suffer from opportunity cost, in the form of occupying megastone for better megas such as blaziken on virtually any other teams. And, even if it is given correct support, it simply cannot beat offensive teams due to extreme weakness to hazards and priority, which is worsen by the fact that inherent flaw with sticky teams that it can't afford to invest yet other team slot to spin most of time.
Can I quickly ask what Darkceus even does?
It's pretty much your standard bulky boosting cmceus, an analogue of Waterceus if you will. Its typing lets it deal with MMY, Palkia, giratina formes, zekrom, and Ghostceus better, but also saddles it with exploitable fighting and fairy weaknesses. It also loses out on Waterceus's general utility against common meta threats like Ho-oh and Kyogre.
Lando-t for A-/B+ rank. It's an amazing utility/support Pokemon with great offensive options, but when you take a look at the Pokemon in S and A+ rank, you notice that it has troubles reliably checking them nowadays (ice beam mmx, no superpower, can't reliably switch into ho oh/blaze). It takes a huge toll from everything it's supposed to check (Mixkrom, blaze, groudon) and has troubles coming back into the game once it's taken even the slightest amount of damage. Lack of recovery doesn't help its case. U-turn is nice but for a mon with poor matchups against the vast majority of A/S rank, I feel A+ is far too high. Some relevant calcs
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 412-486 (107.8 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 267-315 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arguably this can be fixed by running some 252/252+ def set but that has even more problems dealing with other mons since having speed on landoge is necessary. Overall I feel that it has far too many problems dealing with the mons it has to check, and the lack of recovery doesn't really help it while offensive variants outright lose to the mons that it's supposed to check. Thanks to these qualities I'm proposing a landoge drop.
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 412-486 (107.8 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 267-315 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Arguably this can be fixed by running some 252/252+ def set but that has even more problems dealing with other mons since having speed on landoge is necessary. Overall I feel that it has far too many problems dealing with the mons it has to check, and the lack of recovery doesn't really help it while offensive variants outright lose to the mons that it's supposed to check. Thanks to these qualities I'm proposing a landoge drop.
- Status