You could probably make an argument for Stealth Rock overcentralizing, but I think that's been discussed to death by people here.
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The term "hax" , you know brightpowder , etc. well look here please....
- Thread starter BeachBoy
- Start date
Whats wrong with carrying Yawn instead? Yawn perfect accuracy and it gets the job done as well, and has a ton of uses.
If you ignore Yawn, then the argument is similar to Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin, except there are significantly more pokemon who can use Foresight, No Guard, Odor Sleuth, and Miracle Eye. I'm not just talking like weird guys like Miracle Eye Alakazam, but Foresight Swampert and Dusknoir, Odor Sleuth Mamoswine, Donphan and Snorelax.
Further, Double Team is generally inferior to any other stat boost, as on the first turn there is only a 25% chance that it was worth it something.
Except your example will only happen 25% of the time. 75% of the time, Jolteon would have beaten Gyarados. On the average, the double-teamer loses in that case.
Further, if you instead did...
Typical sent out Gyarados!
N00b sent out Hippowdon!
(Intimidate activates)
Gyarados used Dragon Dance!
N00b switched in Jolteon!
Gyarados used Earthquake!
Jolteon Faints!
Well what do you know? You saved yourself 1 moveslot for another attack, meaning your gyarados is even more powerful than the DT one, and at the same time, you've beaten the Jolteon anyway. Dragon Dance will kill Jolteon 100% of the time, but DT will only win 25% of the time. Clearly, Dragon Dance is the better move.
Yawn, Foresight, Odor Sleuth and those such attacks have the same problem with Haze, the pokemon carrying the move has to be faster than the DTer or risks just getting Taunted, the only guaranteed counter to DT because of the possibility of Taunt is No Guard Machamp really.
I hate hax items with a passion. Any kind of luck that's really twisted in this game I hate. That's why I hate the Battle Tower. This is what happened to me at the beginning of my first battle after my 63rd win streak:
Go! Salamence!
(Whoever it was) sent out Crawdaunt!
Salamence used Dragon Dance!
Crawdaunt used Guillotine! (Whoa I didn't see that coming! Almost forgotten the Battle Tower is full of hax, etc)
Salamence hung on by its Focus Sash!
(Quick claw allowed Crawdaunt to go first) (I thought: OMFG!)
Crawdaunt used Crunch!
Salamence fainted!
Go! Gengar! (I was thinking: sorry but no way are you OHKO'ing my Blissey :\ I'll T-punch it before it can OHKO anything. I mean, cmon, I can't be that unlucky for Quick Claw to work again. What other options do I have but to rely on luck? How pathetic is that? Strategy is no longer an option here, especially as I'm not allowed to give two of my Pokemon a Focus Sash)
(Quick claw allowed Crawdaunt to go first)
Crawdaunt used Crunch!
It's super-effective!
Gengar fainted!
Go! Blissey!
Blissey used Calm Mind! (I knew I wouldn't be able to faint that thing with a Thunderbolt; Blissey's special attack is only about 106 at level 50. In addition, I probably get to go first because its IVs are 31 in speed =D)
Crawdaunt used Guillotine!
Crawdant's attack missed!
(Crawdaunt's Quick Claw allowed it to go first)
Crawdaunt used Guillotine!
It's a OHKO!
Blissey fainted!
EDIT: Something like that anyway. You get the point :\
Go! Salamence!
(Whoever it was) sent out Crawdaunt!
Salamence used Dragon Dance!
Crawdaunt used Guillotine! (Whoa I didn't see that coming! Almost forgotten the Battle Tower is full of hax, etc)
Salamence hung on by its Focus Sash!
(Quick claw allowed Crawdaunt to go first) (I thought: OMFG!)
Crawdaunt used Crunch!
Salamence fainted!
Go! Gengar! (I was thinking: sorry but no way are you OHKO'ing my Blissey :\ I'll T-punch it before it can OHKO anything. I mean, cmon, I can't be that unlucky for Quick Claw to work again. What other options do I have but to rely on luck? How pathetic is that? Strategy is no longer an option here, especially as I'm not allowed to give two of my Pokemon a Focus Sash)
(Quick claw allowed Crawdaunt to go first)
Crawdaunt used Crunch!
It's super-effective!
Gengar fainted!
Go! Blissey!
Blissey used Calm Mind! (I knew I wouldn't be able to faint that thing with a Thunderbolt; Blissey's special attack is only about 106 at level 50. In addition, I probably get to go first because its IVs are 31 in speed =D)
Crawdaunt used Guillotine!
Crawdant's attack missed!
(Crawdaunt's Quick Claw allowed it to go first)
Crawdaunt used Guillotine!
It's a OHKO!
Blissey fainted!
EDIT: Something like that anyway. You get the point :\
I symphasize, but they sacrifice consistent rewards for a few lady lucks, just as Mekkah and other posters before me have mentioned. They may be gamebreaking at times, but not CONSISTENTLY gamebreaking, preventing overcentralization, unlike double teams and OHKO moves that are thus banned.
this is a really tough call for me because i totally despise when people bitch and moan about critical hits, confusion hax, misses, parahaxflinch etc. i am a big believer in the philosophy that "hax" / bad (or good) luck is just part of the game. if it wasn't then we wouldn't have abilities like sniper, or serene grace. if "hax" wasn't essential to the game then togekiss might not even exist! shit it might be some bullshit, uu (no offense) togetic!
that is why i have a hard time justifying why i believe things like quick claw or brightpowder should be disallowed. my first reasoning would be that certain haxy items would make pokemon "broken" in the OU/standard metagame. brightpowder-chomp is a good example. with sandstorm support you have brightpowder & sand veil at you disposal. king's rock togekiss is another "broken" pokemon because of the enormous flinch rate.
my second and personally most important justification is that, while i believe a lot of pokemon is based on luck, there is also a skill element to the game. hax items mess with strategy that makes the game seem so much more intelligent. putting the right amount of evs into speed to reach a magic speed number is essentially rendered useless by quick clawers. i look at pokemon as any other skilled game of chance. you develop strategies that on paper seem brilliant, but have to contend with a certain amount of good or bad luck. i think "hax" items have a tendency to dumb down the most interesting parts of our metagame, the parts of our metagame that separates us from your average in-game player and let's us hold the tag "competitive".
that is why i have a hard time justifying why i believe things like quick claw or brightpowder should be disallowed. my first reasoning would be that certain haxy items would make pokemon "broken" in the OU/standard metagame. brightpowder-chomp is a good example. with sandstorm support you have brightpowder & sand veil at you disposal. king's rock togekiss is another "broken" pokemon because of the enormous flinch rate.
my second and personally most important justification is that, while i believe a lot of pokemon is based on luck, there is also a skill element to the game. hax items mess with strategy that makes the game seem so much more intelligent. putting the right amount of evs into speed to reach a magic speed number is essentially rendered useless by quick clawers. i look at pokemon as any other skilled game of chance. you develop strategies that on paper seem brilliant, but have to contend with a certain amount of good or bad luck. i think "hax" items have a tendency to dumb down the most interesting parts of our metagame, the parts of our metagame that separates us from your average in-game player and let's us hold the tag "competitive".
QFT.
There's a difference between getting lucky and depending on luck to win.
THere's already enough luck in the game, so why do we need more?
For me the only hax related things that I ban are brightpowder/lax incense and flinch togekiss.Everything else is fine with me.
Losing my only garchomp counter over hax usually means death for me and flinch togekiss is complete bullshit.I would rather lose to someone who played better than me over someone who relies on such tactics.
Everything else is managable.Sure you can lose because quick claw activiated but you can also lose because someone got a critical hit.It just happens but it's no reason to clause it.
Losing my only garchomp counter over hax usually means death for me and flinch togekiss is complete bullshit.I would rather lose to someone who played better than me over someone who relies on such tactics.
Everything else is managable.Sure you can lose because quick claw activiated but you can also lose because someone got a critical hit.It just happens but it's no reason to clause it.
I really don't care unless their quick claw/brightpowder activates two times or more in crucial points...
I honestly think the Choice items are a far larger threat and more reliable than the so-called "hax" items. A couple of attacks missing or scoring a critical instead of said Pokemon moving faster or boosting the power of its moves by x1.5, with the effects lasting every single turn. What about walls? Sacrificing recovery when maybe it has no other form other than Rest. I've lost several times to random crits, but things like Super Luck Scope Lens Absol can still be beaten. I don't like to complain that much about hax, but if it really, really was a problem, there's nothing stopping you from requesting a rematch. It's part of the game for a reason.
I'm trying here, and I can't think one good reason for hax. I'd be shocked if anyone could provide me with a scenario where hax would be a good thing for the metagame.
Isn't it obvious. Hax is here to unite all of us competitive pokemon battlers. It's here so that we have something to complain about that everyone hates. Hax unites people like no other. I complain about hax, then you complain about hax. Pretty soon everyone sees that we're complaining about hax, and they come and complain. Everyone's complaining, and everyone's agreeing. Hax provokes friendship and unity. It's obvious.
I dont like hax items
There are a lot of things that aren't good for the metagame. The downside to moves like Close Combat, Leaf Storm, Explosion, etc. is the biggest example I can provide. Even the Choice items! Tell me how the downside of those are any good, yet they still exist and we have to live with them. Like hax and the hax items, they all have an upside and a downside.
Hey! I have a hax related loss story! I played my friend on PBR recently. We both used our primary teams. I 5-0ed him. Hell even Mawile got me a kill. The fight went great for me. The only reason I had a poke die was because his Electivire predicted me switching to Hippowdon, where as I predicted him switching to Feraliagtor. I sent in a 40% HP Salamence to take his Ice Punch. Whatever. The win was near total...
But we played a battle after. He used the same team, and I used Mawile / Magnezone / Poliwag / Phione / Relincanth / Yanmega (no speed boost)
The battle was close. Closer then I expected considering what I used. Mawile killed Electivire and did 70% to Salamence (Sucker Punch critical hit lol).
Eventually he got a few kills with specsmence before it died to Magnezone in the rain (Phione's only move that game was Rain Dance. After much denial I finally realize Phione sucks in OU). Out came Feraligator which OHKOed Magnezone.
He had Feraligator / Infernape / Weezing / Cresselia left
I had Poliwag / Yanmega
... lol...
I sent out Poliwag and he sent out Feraligator.
Poliwag used Substitute
Feraligator used Waterfall (accidently)
(Waterfall restored my HP)
Poliwag used Hypnosis (it hit)
(Feral is sleeping)
Poliwag used Belly Drum
(Feral is sleeping)
Poliwag used Waterfall. Did 60%
(still sleeping)
Poliwag used Waterfall. Killed him.
He sent out Infernape. I guess he wanted my sub dead for his next poke.
Infernape used Close Combat. My sub died.
Poliwag used Substitute. Salac activates.
Poliwag used Waterfall. Monkey died.
Shit I may actually get a Poliwag sweep!
Weezing comes out. Waterfall does 70%. Thunderbolt breaks my sub.
Quick Claw activates! Weezing RAPES 25% HP Poliwag.
Damn! Well, its ok. I have Choice Specs Yanmega left with the non-speed boost ability. Whatever its called...
Quick Claw activates! Weezing does 70% with Thunderbolt! Yanmega used Bug Buzz. Weezing fainted.
Cresselia (his last poke) comes out.
Bug Buzz does 60%. Cresselia kills with Ice Beam.
(He wins)
If Quick Claw didn't work TWICE IN A ROW I might have gotten a complete Poliwag sweep and won. Ah well...
But we played a battle after. He used the same team, and I used Mawile / Magnezone / Poliwag / Phione / Relincanth / Yanmega (no speed boost)
The battle was close. Closer then I expected considering what I used. Mawile killed Electivire and did 70% to Salamence (Sucker Punch critical hit lol).
Eventually he got a few kills with specsmence before it died to Magnezone in the rain (Phione's only move that game was Rain Dance. After much denial I finally realize Phione sucks in OU). Out came Feraligator which OHKOed Magnezone.
He had Feraligator / Infernape / Weezing / Cresselia left
I had Poliwag / Yanmega
... lol...
I sent out Poliwag and he sent out Feraligator.
Poliwag used Substitute
Feraligator used Waterfall (accidently)
(Waterfall restored my HP)
Poliwag used Hypnosis (it hit)
(Feral is sleeping)
Poliwag used Belly Drum
(Feral is sleeping)
Poliwag used Waterfall. Did 60%
(still sleeping)
Poliwag used Waterfall. Killed him.
He sent out Infernape. I guess he wanted my sub dead for his next poke.
Infernape used Close Combat. My sub died.
Poliwag used Substitute. Salac activates.
Poliwag used Waterfall. Monkey died.
Shit I may actually get a Poliwag sweep!
Weezing comes out. Waterfall does 70%. Thunderbolt breaks my sub.
Quick Claw activates! Weezing RAPES 25% HP Poliwag.
Damn! Well, its ok. I have Choice Specs Yanmega left with the non-speed boost ability. Whatever its called...
Quick Claw activates! Weezing does 70% with Thunderbolt! Yanmega used Bug Buzz. Weezing fainted.
Cresselia (his last poke) comes out.
Bug Buzz does 60%. Cresselia kills with Ice Beam.
(He wins)
If Quick Claw didn't work TWICE IN A ROW I might have gotten a complete Poliwag sweep and won. Ah well...
I already found a good thing about hax, and that's that it gives us all something in common.
Just because I hate new page cutoff...