Metagame The State of National Dex

[Jho]

Just a small reminder that we have absolutely no plans to change the mechanics of National Dex or how it is implemented as a metagame. The OP in the rules thread, which you can find pinned in this sub, specifically states this is not the place to post about it and I will be deleting all posts that mention doing this from here on out as it’s completely irrelevant and misses the point of the thread.

If you have comments about how National Dex should be implemented you can always PM any of the moderators but I will reiterate that we have no plans currently to change it.

 

[Bobsican]

As some others mentioned, I agree it would be good to just go slowly with the old school method- suspect test a mon at a time. The goal is not to ban every good mon, but to take action if something is overbearing in the tier. By banning a mon at once, we can probably more clearly speculate the specific impact of that mon on the tier, by observing the difference of team builds pre and post ban.

From my observation, I think the main issue with the national dex ou tier started off with the prevalence of blazing fast sweepers (notably ddance dragapult), which are supported by powerful wallbreakers with considerable bulkiness( choice banded urshifu and dracovish as well as mega metagross). This has forced most players to run centralizing, very bulky walls to counter these mons(tangrowth, the pex, clefable). Then this happened... as the fat mons mentioned above are able to cover each other's weaknesses so well, players have started to use them together, embracing the much digusted stall playstyle.

This is pretty complicated as we all know there is a possibility that the walls could become even more unbreakable if there is a ban of multiple sweepers/walbreakers at once. So maybe we should just go a step at a time and see how it goes.

While this is interesting and all, I have to mention that the tiering policy specifically mentions that stuff that's "broken" but mitigates something else that could become "broken" if it's removed isn't taken into account (At least IIRC, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so I really don't think your points are too valid, especially considering the last sentence implies not even you are too sure on this approach.
There's also how this doesn't aim to exactly "ban every good mon", but rather remove the most blatant mons that limit teambuilding and centralize the meta. Doing the classic and slow path is only a way to do it, but is it the most viable one, given the circumstances? Think about that a bit more.

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

I

While this is interesting and all, I have to mention that the tiering policy specifically mentions that stuff that's "broken" but mitigates something else that could become "broken" if it's removed isn't taken into account (At least IIRC, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so I really don't think your points are too valid, especially considering the last sentence implies not even you are too sure on this approach.
There's also how this doesn't aim to exactly "ban every good mon", but rather remove the most blatant mons that limit teambuilding and centralize the meta. Doing the classic and slow path is only a way to do it, but is it the most viable one, given the circumstances? Think about that a bit more.

Thanks, I do get your point. Banning a wave of mons first and retesting them later is perhaps the quickest and easiest way to change the current meta. However, I have to say that the short term changes of the meta post ban really depends on which mons they decide to ban, and it could potentially backfire if the walls become unbreakable. What are we gonna do then?

While some wallbreakers are quite broken as they are now, I believe we are in a state where we only ever think of banning them. So I think a simple way is to test by banning 1-2 certain walls in the wave of bans as well, and not just the fast wallbreakers everyone is talking about.

While these walls have quite a few checks if they are on their own, when combined with other walls, they form a stall team, which is pretty unhealthy for the meta, forcing players to run some very specific stall breakers such as sd crawdunt.

I do understand that banning walls could seem very radical and maybe crazy to some, as their characteristics as stated above, are not in line with those that smogon have listed to be ban worthy. However, I do believe that banning a few walls could directly tackle the problem of a stall meta, as opposed to the act of banning wallbreakers, which is more of an indirect approach with uncertain effectiveness.

 

[Jordy]

If Pokemon become unbreakable, we will simply look into those Pokemon and potentially ban or suspect test them. That really shouldn't be a concern against this approach, especially because it is purely based on unfounded theory.

 

[theotherguytm]

Citation: In Gen 6 Hoopa-U was banned. One of the arguments against its ban was "it's needed to contain stall". Stall did become overbearing, but Mega Sableye was banned 3 months later, and stall was reduced to little viability.

 

[Jordy]

Hey everyone,

After gauging the overall reaction to this, we have decided to move forward with it. Most people agree that there is most certainly an issue within the metagame right now, and that this is a good approach to tackle the issue at hand.

Here is how it will work:

• The council will be voting on a slate of Pokemon. For clarity, this does include the rotating council.
  • This slate of Pokemon will be put together with input from the community. Every council member will try to put their thoughts out there regarding which Pokemon they would like to see a vote on. You should feel totally free to add onto that with posts of your own, your opinion matters to us too.
  • This discussion will be lasting until Friday the 3rd of July at 23:59 PM UTC. We will make the slate known around this time and the council will be voting on it over the weekend.
  • A 67% majority (6/9) is needed to ban anything from this slate.
• The council will then continue to monitor the metagame closely. If necessary, we may vote on a secondary slate, which will, once again, be put together with input from the community. There is no telling whether this will be a necessary thing to do or not, but we want to keep our options open.

--

Here are the people that will be joining the National Dex council as part of the rotating council to vote on this slate: watermess, Solaros & Lunaris, sweet heat, and HoodedZack. All these great users have put a lot of time into National Dex and that is why they will be forming the first iteration of the rotating council together. We look forward to working together with them and make sure to congratulate them!

--

With these things out of the way, feel free to start discussing which Pokemon you would like to see make it on the slate! Make sure to look out for any posts from council members. You will hear more from the council as a whole sometime soon!

 

[Avira]

Pokemon I believe should be on the slate are Darmanitan-Galar, Dracovish, Single Strike Urshifu, and Mega Metagross. I do not believe there should be action on Ash-Greninja, as I believe any problem with Ash-Greninja lies with the 4 Pokemon I previously mentioned either discouraging the use of bulky grasses and a couple of specific dragons (the fault of Darmanitan-Galar) or forcing Pokemon that would otherwise be checks to Ash-Greninja into running physically defensive sets which do not check Ash-Greninja. Gen 7 OU has also shown that there is plenty of counterplay to Ash-Greninja and that it has to get a kill before it transforms, which can be exploited.

Darmanitan-Galar should be on the slate for being ridiculously powerful with its ability making it a ball of stats, allowing it to be a really strong revenge killer and cleaner with its Choice Scarf set and an obnoxiously powerful breaker with its Choice Band set that has an extremely limited amount of switch-ins with Alomomola really being the only safe switch-in. It pretty much forces every bulky water to run max defense, which makes it hard to build for Ash-Greninja.

Dracovish is an extremely constraining Pokemon because it forces you to run Water immune Pokemon as other fat grasses and waters can be 2HKOed by a Banded Fishious Rend with a bit of chip, and even the Water immune Pokemon are 2HKOed by a Banded Outrage because they lack the raw bulk to take it. There are many offensive water resists that can be OHKOed by a Banded Fishious Rend, such as Hydreigon and Dragapult, and this should not happen in a healthy metagame, as a Choice Banded Fishious Rend hits harder than many attacks from many Uber mons. Forcing teams to run a Water immune also takes up a team slot that could be better off used to check Ash-Greninja.

Single Strike Urshifu's Choice Band set is extremely powerful with the only counter being Buzzwole, which is hard to fit on teams. Forcing teams to run Mandibuzz, a Regen mon that can scout for Wicked Blow, and also a Fighting immune or Fighting resist (which might also be a Regenerator mon) is extremely constraining to teambuilding, and thus, Single Strike Urshifu should definitely be on the slate. These regen mons are all forced to run physically defensive sets, which means they are not answers to Ash-Greninja.

Mega Metagross's great combination of bulk and power allow it to cheese past its bulkier checks with a timely Attack boost and beat many Pokemon on the switch because of its good coverage and Tough Claws boosted attacks. Terrains are also great support for Mega Metagross, either allowing it to muscle past checks that could otherwise wall it or make it harder to KO by either weakening Earthquake or denying attempts to status it. Mega Metagross also forces bulky grasses and waters such as Tangrowth and Toxapex to run physically defensive sets, making them unable to check Ash-Greninja.

 

[Avery]

Hey all, Sevelon here. I figured I would shed some insight as to the Pokemon I would expect to see on the voting slate. I will be separating these Pokemon into two different tiers, as I feel there are a couple of Pokemon that are head and shoulders above the rest of the metagame.

I have already gone in depth on the issues that I feel manifest themselves in the builder when trying to prepare for Mega Metagross in a post here. To summarize briefly, the first three moves in Metagross' standard toolkit allow it to hit the entire metagame at least neutrally, so the last move can be whatever the Metagross user pleases. Toxic Metagross, the set seeing a rise in high level play, is taking advantage of its exploitable walls such as Rocky Helmet Tangrowth and Hippowdon. Metagross can Toxic these Pokemon early, and can cripple them in the long-term, leaving them vulnerable to be knocked out later. This is just the Toxic set though, and the last move on Metagross can be anything out of the aforementioned Toxic, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, and even the fringe Bullet Punch, all of which change the counterplay of said Metagross. This strain on the builder is obscene, and thus I would be suprised if Mega Metagross were to be left off the voting slate.

Urshifu-Single-Strike is also a Pokemon that I outlined in the above post, so this section will also be brief. This Pokemon's lack of viable switchins is very much so felt when trying to prepare for the metagame, with Pokemon previously deemed unviable such as Mega Altaria and Buzzwole showing up on teams just to resist both STAB moves from Urshifu. Of course, Clefable also fits this role as well. The issue with these checks is either Urshifu can Poison Jab them down, or it can use U-Turn and bring out a Pokemon to break down these checks, such as Mega Metagross. Urshifu's signature move, Wicked Blow, is also essentially a 120 BP move that always is a Critical Hit, which has the power to muscle through resists and smash neutral targets. The counterplay to this Pokemon is almost strictly offensive, most notably Tornadus-Therian and Mega Lopunny. This is yet another Pokemon who's abscence from the voting slate would be baffling.

Galarian Darmanitan is among the most infamous of the Generation 8 Pokemon, with its Gorilla Tactics boosted moves hitting like a veritable truck. Choice Scarf Darmanitan's four moves go nearly unresisted throughout the tier, and to top it all off it can maintain momentum with U-Turn, which are traits that allow it to be the most splashable Choice Scarf user in the tier. The current metagame is not in it's favor with the influx of stall, who's Alomomola walls Darmanitan-G. Other bulky waters that disuade Darmanitan-G from spamming its STAB move are rather commonplace as well, such as Slowbro and Toxapex. Trends such as Toxapex + a Ground immunity, such as Tornadus-Therian or Hydreigon, are rather unfriendly to Darmanitan-G. Despite these recent trends, Darmanitan-G's pressure in the teambuilder is not something to undervalue. Often times all it takes is one correct prediction with Darmanitan-G to crack open one's defensive core, leaving said player vulnerable to a Darmanitan-G sweep later in the game. Additionally, despite the set being rather niche, Choice Band Darmanitan-G is an incredibly fearsome wallbreaker that punches holes in even the bulkiest resists. This comes at the loss of its Speed tier, which to some is a worthy gamble for the sheer power provided by Gorilla Tactics + Choice Band + Ice STAB from Darmanitan-G. To recap, despite current metagame trends not working in it's favor, the splashability of Choice Scarf and the raw power of the niche Choice Band are enough to save Galarian Darmanitan a spot on the voting slate.

There are a couple more Pokemon I feel should be voted upon, though they are not as centralizing as the aforementioned three Pokemon. These Pokemon would be:



Preparing and playing around Ash-Greninja feels like walking through a minefield. Once Greninja transforms, the sheer power provided by Ash-Greninja is absurd. Additionally, Pokemon such as Clefable and Tangrowth are tending to run Physically Defensive as more adequate Urshifu and Metagross checks respectively, and Ash-Greninja exploits the uninvested Special Defense with its STAB combination boosted further by Choice Specs. Additonally, a good few Ash-Greninja checks lack reliable recovery, such as Tapu Fini and Assault Vest Magearna. These checks are prone to being worn down by repeated hits and the Spikes provided by Ash-Greninja itself, allowing Greninja to easily become overwhelming in the long term, and enable the transformation to Ash-Greninja. It is these attrubtes that, in my opinion, allocate Ash-Greninja a spot on the voting slate.

Tornadus-Therian's effect on the teambuilder is astounding. On paper, your Heatran or Rotom-Heat may check it. Howerer; they are prone to losing their item (and in the case of Heatran, its recovery) via Knock Off, and then will be slowly worn down throughout the course of the match, as consitently switching in to Hurricane followed by U-Turn will ensure Tornadus-T evades damage from these checks. Other checks like Toxapex and Chansey can sponge a Hurricane, but hate having their item removed. Additionally, Regenerator allow Tornadus-T to recover off Stealth Rock damage from switching out, enabling Tornadus-T to run items such as Rocky Helmet on bulky pivot sets or Flyinium Z on offensive pivot sets. The only true check with reliable recovery is Zapdos, and having one true check in the teambuilder is rather centalizing. It is for these reasons that I believe Tornadus-Therian should be voted on by the rotating council with the likes of Ash-Greninja, Mega Metagross, Urshifu-Single-Strike, and Galarian Darmanitan.

 

[pulsar512b]

IMO what mons should be on the slate are:
MUST PUT- If you don't put these on there.... it's not good
Urshifu-Single-Strike - Pretty simple to know why- main addition that made the meta this hellhole.
Darmanitan-Galar- everyone knows why it's busted, again, there's been calls for a suspect/vote/ban for about... forever?
Mega Metagross- See above, except it had a suspect, and only was not banned on a technicality.
CAN PUT - You can put these on there, but if you don't, not a huge deal
Ash-Greninja - Very strong, arguably broken atm, although that could very much just be the above 3's influence.
Dracovish- I personally am not convinced this is broken or a big issue, but it has seen numerous calls for a suspect/ban, so should probably be considered.
Tornadus-Therian - Not totally convinced it's broken, although over time ive started to more lean towards the broken side
DO NOT PUT - No need to put them on here, wouldn't be tooooo angry if they were put on there tho
Manaphy
Z-Moves :)
Heatran
Gliscor
Kyurem
anything & everything else p much
- all of these are in no way broken.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

I’m also gonna post my thoughts here bc I need to rack up those likes



Alright, you guys know what I’m gonna say. I want this thing banned, and there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that the meta will be 100x better with its absence. Mega Metagross enables powerful offensive teams by giving them a major team player that can essentially do it all with minimal support. There are no counters to this Pokemon, period. Any mon is capable of being bypassed by Toxic, HP Fire, Grass Knot or Hammer Arm, letting teammates easily clean up the pieces of a team. Because it essentially mandates two checks to a team (checks who can easily be bypassed and are extremely few), most defensive teams must decide to give up a matchup to other dangerous Pokemon, such as Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, or of utmost danger right now, Single Strike Urshifu. All of this in tandem with Mega Metagross’ key defensive traits (Toxic immunity, Psychic and Flying resist, etc.) make it an unhealthy, if not broken, Pokemon that should be banned.

Single Strike Urshifu

My opinion on Urshifu is not as unanimous as my opinion on the other Pokemon on this list. In a similar vein to Ash-Greninja in the post-Mega Blastoise metagame, I believe it is a product of the meta being dominated by balance archetypes that have not properly adapted. Now I’m sure you’re wondering “Why haven’t they adapted?” Well that’s because there’s a giant ass supercomputer always looming in the shadows behind our blackbear friend. For the record, I think a more offensive metagame freed up by Mega Metagross’ absence will be way more hostile to Urshifu, weakening its overall viability. However, I am not against this Pokemon going to Ubers, but I think its brokenness is a bit of an overstatement.

There are other Pokemon that I think deserve mention and even a slate, but I do not think are overly unhealthy or broken. I’ll list them here.

- Tornadus-T is a Pokemon I feel is never truly broken, but rather has the greatest capacity to make progress in any given game. The presence of Pokemon like Mega Tyranitar, Heatran, Toxapex, and Zapdos as well as softer checks like SD Aegislash, CM+Pain Split Magearna, Rotom-Heat, and Rotom-Wash keeps it at bay for me. I know these checks can all be bypassed, but giving up on any of Torn’s utility can feel like a noticeable loss in certain matchups.

- Another mon whose brokenness feels like a product of the meta. Many Pokemon can make progress against it, such as Alomomola, Toxapex, Slowbro, and Protect Heatran. Because it's usually locked in, it must be on high alert at all times especially against teams that carry a Water-type + Ground immunity.

- This is the final Pokemon I’m gonna list, and again I don’t think its broken. The prevalence of Toxapex + Dark resist cores can generally make it hard to make progress, especially if the Pex team is running Tornadus-T, who can negate progress through Defogging Spikes away. It's also held back by new additions in Grassy Glide Rillaboom and Choice Scarf Cinderace, in addition to old counterplay like Tapu Fini, Assault Vest Tangrowth, Roost Hydreigon, and Assault Vest Magearna.

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok, so I'm going to add my thoughts on Dracovish and why it needs to go from before:

Just chiming in to add my thoughts on this thing. I was looking through the ladder usage stats, and I was wondering "why has Dracovish got more usage than Mega Gross and Heatran??" The answer was pretty self-explanatory. 1760 usage stats below:

Compress

Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | %
| 1 | Landorus-Therian | 22.94114% | 136784 | 12.284%
| 2 | Dragapult | 18.55503% | 119644 | 10.745%
| 3 | Ferrothorn | 17.89582% | 121659 | 10.926%
| 4 | Greninja-Ash | 17.85296% | 147866 | 13.280%
| 5 | Dracovish | 16.56611% | 96280 | 8.647%
| 6 | Metagross-Mega | 14.95177% | 98153 | 8.815%
| 7 | Heatran | 14.51944% | 87707 | 7.877%
| 8 | Clefable | 14.24018% | 76828 | 6.900%
| 9 | Darmanitan-Galar | 13.60213% | 122493 | 11.001%
| 10 | Slowbro | 12.76290% | 59273 | 5.323%
| 11 | Tornadus-Therian | 11.21770% | 53617 | 4.815%
| 12 | Corviknight | 10.57355% | 61116 | 5.489%
| 13 | Magearna | 10.55835% | 55773 | 5.009%
| 14 | Tapu Koko | 10.26231% | 80712 | 7.249%
| 15 | Tapu Fini | 10.17048% | 61711 | 5.542%

Yes, Nat Dex ladder can be very jank etc etc, but what I think is critical is its comparatively low "raw" (ie:unweighted) usage. This means the majority of its usage is confined to upper ladder, where it is weighted more heavily. So, if players with Dracovish are in the upper ladder and consistently finding success, what should that tell us? There just aren't any switch-ins to a Banded Dracovish. I keep seeing CHECKS like Slowbro and Phys Def Tang bought up, but they are just that, CHECKS, not counters. This means they CANNOT switch in.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 179-211 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 164-193 (40.6 - 47.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 221-261 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (and all it can do back is Toxic it or use the equivalent of a 30% accurate Will-O-Wisp)
The only counterplay to a Banded Dracovish is offensive counterplay and Water immunities. The latter is very rare in the current metagame. The former is unrealistic. To have to constantly make sure Dracovish doesn't come in against something it forces it out is near-impossible. Not to mention it murders and constrains all the bulky Waters and Grasses, preventing them checking all the other broken threats running around. You end up having to run multiple very sturdy Water resists on every team to not lose to Dracovish backed by Ash-Gren. While Dracovish isn't the most obvious problem, it is the ultimate matchup fish, and its presence is both uncompetitive and unhealthy.

In short, please ban this so teams stop being murdered by a B Rank mon. Dracovish might not seem bad on paper, but its presence in the tier is both uncompetitive and unhealthy. Pokemon immune to Water simply don't exist in the current metagame, and Banded Vish rips Stall apart while Scarf Vish cleans house against many common Hyper Offenses.

 

[sanguine]

Ok, so I'm going to add my thoughts on Dracovish and why it needs to go from before:

In short, please ban this so teams stop being murdered by a B Rank mon. Dracovish might not seem bad on paper, but its presence in the tier is both uncompetitive and unhealthy. Pokemon immune to Water simply don't exist in the current metagame, and Banded Vish rips Stall apart while Scarf Vish cleans house against many common Hyper Offenses.

Dracovish is an extremely constraining Pokemon because it forces you to run Water immune Pokemon as other fat grasses and waters can be 2HKOed by a Banded Fishious Rend with a bit of chip, and even the Water immune Pokemon are 2HKOed by a Banded Outrage because they lack the raw bulk to take it. There are many offensive water resists that can be OHKOed by a Banded Fishious Rend, such as Hydreigon and Dragapult, and this should not happen in a healthy metagame, as a Choice Banded Fishious Rend hits harder than many attacks from many Uber mons. Forcing teams to run a Water immune also takes up a team slot that could be better off used to check Ash-Greninja.

I’m kind of tired of this discussion happening in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD., posted by people who think “Dracovish is only dealt with by having water immunities”, which is so untrue to the point where I question if these people even play the metagame


Choice Scarf Dracovish is straight out countered by the water-resistant Regenerator threats, Ferrothorn, the newly resurgent Mega Altaria, in addition to how it’s offensively checked by every viable Choice Scarf user and Lopunny-M / Dragapult by nature of its own horrendous speed tier for a Choice Scarf user.

Choice Band Dracovish doesn’t necessarily have switch-ins per se, but it sacrifices all matchups against every relevant offensive threat. In addition to all the offensive counterplay listed above, things like Urshifu, Kyurem, and even Tapu Fini now can outspeed and KO with little effort, Mega Slowbro’s existence notwithstanding. Choice Band Dracovish relies on the opponent being unwilling to make an aggressive double switch, opponents who struggle with their positioning / picking the appropriate sack, or opponents who have teams unable to properly punish a lock-in, qualities which are not necessarily a problem with Dracovish itself.

So this isn’t entirely negative, I implore prospective posters to think a little harder about how things fit into the metagame and ask yourself things like “If Dracovish is as good as I think it is, why don’t teams run a water immunity more commonly?” and “If these teams are not running Water Immunities in favor of checking other things, is Dracovish really the main problem here?” , etcetera.

Lastly, I think the three main targets for a suspect should be obvious. I won’t go into Urshifu and Metagross because they are equines that been thoroughly thumped and walloped postmortem. So I want to quickly speak about Tornadus-T. I think post the first quickbans, this should be the first suspect test done, as counterplay feels less and less safe as the metagame evolves, and it’s so incredibly good at carving advantages via hazard control, Knock Off, and the threat of Z-Hurricane in addition to its high versatility and splashability.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

I’m kind of tired of this discussion happening in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD., posted by people who think “Dracovish is only dealt with by having water immunities”, which is so untrue to the point where I question if these people even play the metagame


Choice Scarf Dracovish is straight out countered by the water-resistant Regenerator threats, Ferrothorn, the newly resurgent Mega Altaria, in addition to how it’s offensively checked by every viable Choice Scarf user and Lopunny-M / Dragapult by nature of its own horrendous speed tier for a Choice Scarf user.

Choice Band Dracovish doesn’t necessarily have switch-ins per se, but it sacrifices all matchups against every relevant offensive threat. In addition to all the offensive counterplay listed above, things like Urshifu, Kyurem, and even Tapu Fini now can outspeed and KO with little effort, Mega Slowbro’s existence notwithstanding. Choice Band Dracovish relies on the opponent being unwilling to make an aggressive double switch, opponents who struggle with their positioning / picking the appropriate sack, or opponents who have teams unable to properly punish a lock-in, qualities which are not necessarily a problem with Dracovish itself.

So this isn’t entirely negative, I implore prospective posters to think a little harder about how things fit into the metagame and ask yourself things like “If Dracovish is as good as I think it is, why don’t teams run a water immunity more commonly?” and “If these teams are not running Water Immunities in favor of checking other things, is Dracovish really the main problem here?” , etcetera.

Lastly, I think the three main targets for a suspect should be obvious. I won’t go into Urshifu and Metagross because they are equines that been thoroughly thumped and walloped postmortem. So I want to quickly speak about Tornadus-T. I think post the first quickbans, this should be the first suspect test done, as counterplay feels less and less safe as the metagame evolves, and it’s so incredibly good at carving advantages via hazard control, Knock Off, and the threat of Z-Hurricane in addition to its high versatility and splashability.

I second this. Dracovish was definitely a problem in SS OU due to the limited number of mon counters, as well as the fact that Seismitoad, a previously NU mon, went up in usage in OU simply to check this thing, which still was flawed due to the possibility of a Band Outrage. In the NatDex tier, we've got all the Ultra Beasts with their blistering offensive stats and decent speed, the Tapus, the Mega Evolutions, and so-forth. And with all of these options, Dracovish becomes a smaller problem. As someone constantly playing NatDex, I haven't seen a single Seismitoad, indicating that Dracovish's presence has become less of an issue.

EDIT: Its job in breaking those goddamn stall teams is also why I'm happy to allow the abomination to stay here. Once these fools stop laddering with stall, maybe we can start worrying, but even without regard to stall, Dracovish isn't much of a problem given what is available to us in this tier.

 

[Guard]

Before I dive into the issue in a more detailed fashion, I believe it wise to reiterate the source of the mayhem. There were two reasons why the council decided to apply such a drastic method:

• Teambuilder strain resulting into a matchup-based metagame
• An uncomfortably high power-level

As a logical consequence, these bulletpoints will be the root of my reasoning when it comes to what threats I want to have on the first slate, if not banned. Without further ado, the slate I would like to vote on, with the targets ranked in an order from most pressing to least pressing:

​

Mega Metagross is the frontrunner as far as teambuilder influence is concerned, and it has been for a very long time. Its sheer offensive presence coupled with natural defensive resiliency mandates one to pick a reliable check from a highly select pool, consisting of Rocky Helmet variants of Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Slowbro, and Alomomola or physically defensive behemoths such as Mega Slowbro and Mega Scizor. Out of these options, the former five are prone to being overwhelmed by Toxic in the long run, or stray Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Thunder Punch hax. As such, you will be required to pair them with backup pivots such as Gliscor, Ferrothorn, Rocky Helmet Reuniclus, and / or Speed control such as Choice Scarf Galarian Darmanitan and Cinderace, leaving Mega Scizor as the only surefire check in a vacuum. However, even Mega Scizor can be overwhelmed in practice by means of double switching with the assistance of entry hazards, especially as it fails to push damage onto Mega Metagross unlike Rocky Helmet users, and it is prone to Magnezone as well. The above testifies not only how much of a strain Mega Metagross is in the teambuilder, but also the extent of its effectiveness in practice with little to no support. Bidding it farewell would undoubtedly be the first step to freeing up the metagame.


Urshifu comes next, as it has a grand total of one counter in the incredibly niche Buzzwole and two relevant defensive checks in Clefable and the niche Mega Altaria. As a result, it has warped teambuilding in a way that is unprecedented this generation by invalidating every single balance, bulky balance, semi-stall, and stall build that forgoes Clefable or Mega Altaria. Admittedly, its effect on the defensive metagame is even unhealthier than Mega Metagross’s, which should immediately ring plenty of alarm bells. It has notable benefits over wallbreakers in its calibre, such as Mega Mawile, Dracovish, Mega Heracross, and Hoopa-U: its STAB moves are incredible powerful and fairly spammable, its Speed tier is much better, it is not weak to Stealth Rock or Pursuit, it is semi-immune to Intimidate and Defense boosters such as Curse Mega Scizor and Iron Defense Skarmory, it cannot be scouted by the likes of Baneful Bunker Toxapex and Protect users, it does not need a turn to boost its stats, and it can pivot out of its checks with U-turn. Its firepower along with all of these positives combine to make Urshifu quite possibly the most risk-free wallbreaker the metagame has seen in a while. Of course, it is not as much of a nuisance to offensively oriented teams due to its fairly average Speed tier, although it can still somewhat circumvent this with Sucker Punch. However, this still does not subtract from Urshifu’s unhealthy influence on the defensive metagame, which will surely not be missed by many if it were to leave the metagame.


Ash Greninja is the next most influencing threat in the teambuilder, demanding a good check paired with a sturdy Dark-resist at almost all times, with the only exceptions being if you were to run Baneful Bunker Toxapex, Protect Ferrothorn, or Chansey. This necessity of dedicating at least two slots to keep it from transforming is inherently an obligation that demands the necessary attention in the teambuilder. This may not seem too much of an issue in paper, where Ash-Greninja checks are abundant. However, in practice, where you will have to compress as much as you can within these two slots and make sure you aren’t using Pokemon that are liabilities against the rest of the metagame, it becomes clear why Ash Greninja is even more of an issue currently. Relevant checks in the current metagame include Chansey, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Tapu Fini, with Gastrodon and Kommo-O being niche picks. Relevant bulky Dark-resists include Hydreigon, Clefable, Magearna, Mega Tyranitar, and the niche Mandibuzz and Mega Altaria. Evidently, the pool is small, with other theoretically good checks such as Assault Vest Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu being restricted by other threats. Moreover, Ash Greninja is notorious for its ability to break through its counterplay in practice regardless, with the assistance of Spikes and Dark Pulse flinches, after which it cleans up with resounding ease due to its enhanced firepower. The sheer effect Ash Greninja has on the teambuilder and the way it oftentimes pans out in practice is more than sufficient for me to secure it a spot on the slate.


Tornadus-T is another such threat that is capable of making progress no matter what matchup it is confronted with. Sufficient defensive checks to all of its sets simply do not exist in the metagame, with Heatran, Rotom-H, Rotom-W, Magearna, Chansey, Aegislash, and Zapdos being extremely prone to Knock Off, Mega Metagross and Corviknight falling to Heat Wave, with Mega Metagross crumbling to constant uses of Hurricane, Knock Off, and U-turn as well, Mega Tyranitar being overwhelmed by constant U-turn spam or Focus Blast, and even Toxapex losing to the rising Taunt variants. On top of that, Regenerator grants Tornadus-T immense resiliency, essentially shielding it from Stealth Rock damage, as well as other kinds of trivial chip damage from the likes of Rocky Helmet users or attacks from passive Pokemon. Taking advantage of Tornadus-T is an impossibility due to these reasons, while it, in turn, is capable of harassing every single build in the metagame, other than well-supported Zapdos teams. Its impact on the teambuilder is uncomfortably large for these reasons, easily ensuring it a spot on the first slate in my eyes.


Galarian Darmanitan is comparable to Ash Greninja on quite a few points; it often forces players into reserving two slots in their hunt to account for it properly, it can break through their preparations with correct predictions and Icicle Crash flinches regardless, and it cleans up very frequently after its counterplay has been weakened, often by itself. However, there are key differences that set Galarian Darmanitan apart from Ash Greninja. Unlike Ash Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan does not always need to risk a prediction with Spikes to make progress, simply spamming U-turn to weaken checks such as Slowbro, Rotom-H, and Rotom-W; it really only needs to predict against Toxapex + Ground-immunity cores. Moreover, Galarian Darmanitan’s innate power is a few notches above an untransformed Ash Greninja, allowing it to pressure builds a lot harder in the initial stages of a match. However, perhaps the most noteworthy difference is its ability to surprise its counterplay with Choice Band or Groundium Z. A Choice Band Galarian Darmanitan, however easy it may be to revenge kill, simply does not have reliable checks once it gets into a good position, even 2HKO’ing Alomomola after some chip damage. Furthermore, Groundium Z sets, albeit niche, can easily bluff the Choice Scarf set, lock itself into Icicle Crash against the likes of Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Heatran, and proceed to take them out with a Tectonic Rage, which can hugely swing the momentum by opening up matches for already dangerous threats such as Ash Greninja, Volcarona, and Cinderace. As a whole, Choice Scarf Galarian Darmanitan’s power over the teambuilder is very large as it is, with Choice Band and Groundium Z only adding insult to injury.

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The next three Pokemon are, in my opinion, not banworthy as things stand. Their presence in the metagame, however, is quite questionable for a few reasons I will expound on. I will not actively advocate for their inclusion in the slate, nor will I oppose it.

​

Mega Lopunny’s griphold on the offensive metagame has always been disproportionately large. Its balanced matchup against defense, against which it needed to predict with Toxic in order to make satisfying progress, has kept it in check up until now. However, U-turn’s recent inclusion in its movepool allows it to forgo this prediction and make progress against its checks in a much more risk-free and punishing fashion than ever before, by bringing out strong wallbreakers to take advantage of them; Kyurem, Ash Greninja, Urshifu, Galarian Darmanitan, and Nasty Plot Hydreigon and Gengar are some of the most potent wallbreakers that can take advantage of this. This dynamic, where Mega Lopunny singlehandedly patches up the offense matchup, and enables wallbreakers in such a fool proof method against defense, can often prove to be overwhelming to face, which is a compelling enough reason to hold a formal vote on it.


Toxapex distinguishes itself from the other threats in this list, as it does not fit the second criteria due to being a defensively oriented presence. However, this does not take anything away from its unique stranglehold on the teambuilder. Toxapex’s capability of spreading status and disrupting entire builds is nigh unprecedented for a defensive Pokemon, which mandates players to actively prepare for it in the teambuilder as if it were an offensive behemoth. This includes packing status-resilient Pokemon such as Gliscor, Reuniclus, Clefable, or even your own Toxapex, or at least one slot dedicated to breaking Toxapex. Teams that have no consistent way of breaking Toxapex or denying its progress are bound to fall flat against it, which is very unfavourable in a metagame where Toxapex is such a huge presence, especially after Mega Alakazam’s removal. However, Toxapex is a positive contributor to the metagame as well, keeping it fairly stable against otherwise nightmarish threats such as Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Volcarona, and the Mega Charizards, which is definitely something to consider before acting on it.


Dragapult is perhaps the most awkward threat to account for in the teambuilder. Its phenomenal Dragon / Ghost typing is very good from an offensive perspective, only really being uncapable of breaking through Unaware walls and Mandibuzz in the long run, and miscellaneous additional Dark-types such as a healthy Mega Tyranitar or Bisharp. However, Dragapult’s task is not wallbreaking, it is to secure games with a late-game sweep, which it does in an extremely reliable manner once the opposition’s defense is weakened ever so slightly for a well-timed boosted Never-Ending Nightmare to break through. Moreover, Dragapult’s near-complete lack of reliable offensive counterplay due to its blistering Speed tier paired with a resistance to Water Shuriken and Grassy Glide contributes to it being an oftentimes overwhelming presence late-game. Ways to revenge kill it only really boil down to double priority Mega Lopunny, which is a mediocre pick currently, Sucker Punch users such as Bisharp, Urshifu, Mega Mawile, and Cinderace, which Dragapult can circumvent with Substitute or its own Sucker Punch, and Shadow Sneak Aegislash, which, again, is prone to a boosted Sucker Punch. All things considered, Dragapult is perhaps a little too good at securing late-game sweeps, and it really does not need too many criteria to be fulfilled in order to do so, which can be very overwhelming at times.

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I do not think any other Pokemon is questionable enough to warrant being on the first slate. Any other inclusion would be premature in my eyes.

 

[watermess]

Mess's unbiased nat dex shortlist ;)
I'm gonna keep this short, I feel like what other members of the council and rotating council have already said paint a fine picture of what these mons do in the metagame. Also I've split my shortlist in two, the first half i consider to be more threatening and oppressive than the second, and of course feel free to counter argue or disagree with things I say, but please form a extended argument.

pt.1


Mega metagross - lets be honest here we have all played games where Mega Meta manages to beat a hard check or even a so called counter with a timely boost or flinch, and its bulk is insane this absolute beast can somehow chew up a stab earthquake from Garchomp when its at full! and this can really make it a big issue for middle of the range bulky offences which can usually make up for being soft defensively against certain strong threats by making solid progress in return with their revenge plays when a mon goes down, however these struggle immensely with meta since its so difficult to kill from full especially when we combine in its speed tier.

Once again this is unbiased so to play devils advocate for a minute here it definitely has some good switch ins in the tier, stuff like helmet Tangrowth and Slowbro can really punish and give Metagross a hard time in a vacuum, not to mention a proactive scarf Magnezone can make meta a lot more palatable to KO. But to flip back to why I have an issue with this mon we also have to consider that faster paced bulky offences might not want to field a slower paced mon such as helmet tang and (to a far lesser extent thanks to teleport) Slowbro, not to mention how cleanly meta pairs with ash gren who can conveniently not only beat a lot of Metagross's counter-play but also support it immensely vs these Regenerator users with spikes that if played with the right tempo and offensive pressure can give position Metagross to become genuinely impossible to switch into without even wasting a slot on support since ash gren holds its own with proper value in almost every match-up.


Urshifu - laughs in single strike - but really, this mon is a menace, and once again its another one of those mons that is capable of wearing down a common check with a partner such as ash Greninja or galarian Darmanitan or mega Metagross etc. if I have a tapu fini as my check to Urshifu and darm then I am really gonna have to work hard to make that mon last, especially with potential hazards up, or helmet tang for example also! imagine switching into meta and Urshifu on rocks all game, you are gonna get worn down fast. not much more to say here, we all know this mon well and I don't have any deeper takes on it.

:
dragapult - dragon dance z move sets have very few true counters and with most utilising sub they can often clean up bulkier builds with relative ease, I often find I have to attempt to outplay using a collection of checks, I should make sure this is unbiased so I will say that more offensive teams have fewer issues with this mon, if every mon prevents more than 1 turn of set up and cant be subbed on then you will find this mon much easier to deal with; proactive plays can also really help (e.g not taking kills with free set up mons).

However for a player such as myself who favours chunkier balances, i often find that the z move claims one a lot of games vs me even if i work hard and make sacrifices not to give it free turns, since it is quite capable of using a mon such as protox Heatran or a fat water such as non knock off Alomomola/ spdef or non haze Toxapex as set up fodder and it is not all that difficult to pull a double vs these more passive builds to get this mon in safely as they tend to be switch ins to big threats that cannot be messed around with.

pt.2


Galarian Darmanitan - middle of the way bulky offensive builds can struggle to fit a good switch to scarf variants with their ability to combine a threatening speed tier and stupid power into one set, surprise belly drum zen mode sets also pose a significant threat which can be a little stupid sometimes once again however note this is the take of a player who prefers fatter balance in the Nat Dex format and these sub set up set can always pose a threat to those teams when given a turn. not much more to say here, we all know this mon.


Ash greninja - We all know about how threatening it is its been here for more than a gen now and it pretty much does what it did in gen 7 OU, it sets its self up with its own hazards, it forces out a hefty chunk of the metagame with the threat of changing to ash form and its capable of flinching through its checks with dark pulse. however what makes it a bigger issue now in Nat Dex? well its choice of partners is just incredible this gen, it can work with galar darm to wear out tapu fini with shocking speed when played right, it can team up with mega Metagross and support it with spikes to help meta muscle past its thick hide regenerator checks without even fishing for hax (not to mention the choke-hold this pair combined have on the builder) and now Urshifu, who benefits similarly to the other two combined into one slot as gren not only supports it in wearing down fini but also but with the spikes for helmet Tangrowth.


Tornadus-t - I hate to flag this mon up because I really am one of its biggest fans in Nat Dex, but as I promised this will be unbiased and I truly think this mon is a menace to deal with. My favourite set is Taunt z move and the truth is when played right with a partner or two and a fair amount of offensive pressure can "1v6" a of fatter builds, knock is extremely crippling and makes it stupidly annoying to switch in on even with a hard check or counter, offensive doubles are cripplingly strong plays with this mon, not least because of its sheer power and the threat knock off, and uturn wiht stealth rocks support pose, but also because of its ability being able to double reward aggressive plays with some recovery allowing you to afford to spam taunt vs stuff like Corviknight and Chansey without dire longevity issues or having to take several abuse-able turns for recovery, you can simply heal up my playing even more aggressive bringing it in on future turns.

The thing about this is, sure its absolutely incredible vs slower more passive teams but the thing is its a real menace for offensive builds as well as often the z move can pick up kills vs mons that could normally eat a hit and KO back and catch a player expecting to make a trade heavily off guard and leave them in the back for very little cost. taunt also has great merit vs offense as it can simply taunt a set up user that would 1v1 it and switch out after to life to tell the tale while preventing a threat from sweeping, or it can even use taunt to sack itself in the late game to a threat it doesn't kill without granting any free turns for set up. maybe we should all start running tapu koko again just to beat it

TL;DR
Everything in part one I think should be seen on this first slate, the second lot i think could be more worthy of a suspect. I have more takes on mons that are making a little noise in this discussion but I didn't want to make this post too long and I covered all the loudest mons I think in the current metagame that needed addressing.
thanks for coming to my ted talk, feel free to message me when I'm online on ps, highlight me in the ND room or talk to me on discord if you like, i do want to listen to the community and take my role on the rotating council with the appropriate seriousness.
Until next time.

 

[Sputnik]

Well, I believe it is that sort of time to talk about what definitely needs to be addressed in the first slate of this new Koko tiering system.

The Big Five


A lot of things about Mega Metagross are incredibly stupid; The hax potential, the power, the bulk, the 350 speed tier for some reason, Stealth Rock and Priority (despite the fact that those are niche options), it all comes together to make a powerful Pokemon.

I would mainly like to focus on the fact that Mega Metagross has a way around virtually every defensive answer if it is running the right coverage or move, because seriously, unless you are running Mega Scizor you likely have massive problems beating this thing. People talk about the Rocky Helmet and bulky Pokemon like Tangrowth, Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, and Hippowdon, but people seem to forget that arguably the best fourth move on Mega Metagross is currently Toxic. Aegislash is dropping off in popularity, Heatran doesn't particularly like taking repeated hits, and sure Kartana and Ferrothorn become issues with a moveset running Toxic, but both of those lack recovery, can be worn down, and trapped by Magnezone if you're going that direction. Hell, Mega Scizor isn't even a surefire answer; the mixed set with Hidden Power Fire and Grass Knot existed for a short time, and recently I have been experimenting with different variations of HP Fire sets to abuse the presence of Mega Scizor as a catch all Mega Metagross switch in. This also has the added bonus of hitting Kartana hard and pressuring Ferrothorn. And yes, it's not the premier option for Mega Metagross, and it likely isn't in the top five, but the point is that all of these options work and are completely viable depending on what you need your super computer to do. Something that can theoretically beat all of its counters depending on what you run, as well as the hax potential and warping the metagame in the way it does, is not healthy in my opinion.

Black Bear is ridiculous. The two bulky Fairies that actually have recovery fail to switch in after like one correct prediction, and the only "switch ins" that we have found are stupid things like Buzzwole and Galarian Weezing, most of whom have their own issues, AKA being Mega Metagross bait. The fact that "Defensive Hawlucha" has actually been brought up in Council discussions, and the fact that one of the newly minted members of the Rotating Council has resorted to Eviolite Shelmet as a switch in should speak for itself. Choice Band sets absolutely rip the metagame apart, U-turn makes for great pairings with Mega Metagross and other dangerous breakers, The guaranteed critical hit from Wicked Blow means that even interim measures against some physical attackers, like Landorus-T's Intimidate, just don't work at all.

Unseen Fist is another major problem with this thing, because it means that Pokemon that usually can use their Protection moves to safely scout what a Choice Locked Pokemon will use, can't do that. Toxapex takes way too much from Wicked Blow, and Clefable is one Poison Jab away from being in deep trouble for the rest of the match. As far as balance breaking goes, this thing is arguably top dog. I mean, Mega Altaria is now B rank, and let's keep in mind that its Ash-Greninja and Hydreigon checking abilities were not enough to get it ranked beforehand. This thing isn't quite on the level of Mega Metagross in my opinion, but it is absolutely insane nonetheless, and this should surely be voted on in the first slate.


Ash Greninja is a slight step down from the other two in my opinion, but it is the clear #3 in the tier as far as "the brokens" goes, so that should not mean it should be taken any lighter. There are a few things that make it slightly less dumb though, in my opinion. It has a pretty hard counter unlike the other ones, and many of its decent checks are not especially difficult to fit onto teams at the moment. Even a well played Ash-Greninja can struggle to transform against a well played Toxapex balance, for example.

This is where problems with not just Ash-Greninja, but the tier at large, begin to arise. In a vacuum, Ash Greninja is not especially difficult to deal with. Some of its best counters and checks are among the best Pokemon in the tier, after all. But consider the fact that I mentioned that Ash-Greninja, for example, struggles to break through a well played Toxapex balance. Before Black Bear descended upon us that would have often meant a defensive core of Toxapex, Hippowdon, and Hydreigon. Such a paring had proven its worth, especially with Jhopex giving that trio Galarian Darmanitan buffer. Unfortunately, these Toxapex balance teams are in a rough spot. Toxic Metagross always gave this trio some grief, and now its more popular than ever. These teams are also weak to Urshifu now, as both Toxapex and Hippowdon lose to Wicked Blow, and Hydreigon can't dream of switching in either. Such teams must attempt to shoehorn on a Clefable or a Mega Altaria, and that leaves them very open to opposing Mega Metagross. And even then, Urshifu is one correct prediction away from ending those two. And thats not even considering some of our lesser but still very dangerous offensive threats, namely things like Kyurem, Dragapult, Tornadus-T, and Cinderace. What if you see one of those, or, even worse, multiple ones of them? This is the problem with National Dex at the moment; it is virtually impossible to fit all of what you need onto a balance team. You either concede the loss to a very big threat, or you forego an important piece of a balance team, like hazards, speed control, or removal. The solution is to go semi, or full, stall or play Hyper Offense, but lets be real; this is not the sign of a healthy, or fun for that matter, metagame.


Tornadus-T is one of those Pokemon that puts in a ton of work no matter what sort of things you do to prepare for it. "Checks" like Toxapex, Heatran, Rotom-H, and Zapdos all respond poorly to Knock Off, and other Hurricane switch ins like Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, and Magearna have to watch out for viable coverage moves like Heat Wave and Focus Blast.

The amount of pressure that Torn exerts in a standard game is ridiculous. Knock Off is spammable and can be used to beat virtually every answer in the long run, Taunt is becoming viable to really shut down Toxapex, which is the best check available for many teams, Regenerator makes it tough to wear down, and it's unpredictable. Sets could be standard pivoters, or you can get surprised by a Z-Move, even an odd one like Firium or Fightinium. This is incredibly centralizing and difficult for most teams to deal with, and is well deserving of its spot on the slate.


It's been interesting to see Galarian Darmanitan to fall to the bottom of the "big five", but being in the Big Five is still something the ice monkey can claim and be proud of. Ice Monkey's Scarf sets are still very dangerous, and both Band and Z-Move sets are highly underrated in my opinion.

Some will definitely point to GDarm being much less oppressive in the current Metagame, and I would 100% agree with you. This is not, however, a sign that it is healthy. Not in the slightest. The rise of very bulky water types has hurt Galarian Darmanitan, no doubt. However, these Pokemon need to be run to at least give some recourse against things like Mega Metagross and Ash Greninja. Alomomola's rise has made GDarm somewhat less of a threat, but the fact that all of these Pokemon are rising in the first place is a problem. All of these powerful threats require checks that are ridiculously bulky, and this is what we have come across. Checking Gdarm is a reason why these bulky water types are so popular at the moment, and that can be taken advantage of by a partnership with something like, say, Toxic Mega Metagross. GDarm isn't sweeping teams on its own at the moment, sure, but it is a big reason why balances are becoming predictable and easier to break. The threat of Ice Monkey is forcing balance to take extreme measures against it, which is leading to the rise in, for example, Alomomola, a Pokemon that's presence can be abused if you play your cards right. GDarm's access to U-turn further compromises this, and makes for a rather risk free way of slowly wearing down things like Rotom-H. Not to mention the fact that Choice Band has even less switch ins than Urshifu does. This thing isn't healthy at all, and it should be the final Pokemon on the first slate.

Conclusion

This is what I would like to put on the first slate. Other Pokemon that could potentially be problematic, like Mega Lopunny, Kyurem, Dragapult, Toxapex, and Cinderace could potentially be put on future slates if things swing a certain way. These are five Pokemon that I would be interested to hear other people's opinions on, and I will definitely be keeping a close eye on them as the metagame progresses.

 

[smokeythabear96]

Toxapex distinguishes itself from the other threats in this list, as it does not fit the second criteria due to being a defensively oriented presence. However, this does not take anything away from its unique stranglehold on the teambuilder. Toxapex’s capability of spreading status and disrupting entire builds is nigh unprecedented for a defensive Pokemon, which mandates players to actively prepare for it in the teambuilder as if it were an offensive behemoth. This includes packing status-resilient Pokemon such as Gliscor, Reuniclus, Clefable, or even your own Toxapex, or at least one slot dedicated to breaking Toxapex. Teams that have no consistent way of breaking Toxapex or denying its progress are bound to fall flat against it, which is very unfavourable in a metagame where Toxapex is such a huge presence, especially after Mega Alakazam’s removal. However, Toxapex is a positive contributor to the metagame as well, keeping it fairly stable against otherwise nightmarish threats such as Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Volcarona, and the Mega Charizards, which is definitely something to consider before acting on it.
.

You're a legend for bringing this up.

I do think that the power level in OU right now is exceedingly high. The fact that Buzzwole is even being mentioned in a meta where Torn is running wild shows how overbearing Urshifu can be. The addition of that mon opened up plenty of nasty offensive cores that have quite an easy time overwhelming each others checks, such as Urshifu+Mega Metagross.

Knocking things back will probably settle the meta down for a little bit, as right now the only way to counter some of these threats is with relatively niche mons, such as Tapu Koko for Tornadus, Scarf Gren for Ash Greninja etc. I even resorted to using Eviolite Doublade to counter Mega Metagross, which is the nichest of the niche lol.

However, a reduced power level could definitely cause other problems to arise. I think if Mega Metagross, Urshifu and Ash Gren leave(lets be honest they all probably will) Toxapex will become increasingly difficult to break through. Megagross is really the only viable psychic type rn because Greninja cannot switch directly into it, and its secondary steel typing makes it immune to poison. Clefable becoming an S Tier mon in SS OU shows what can happen if you have walls with nothing that can immediately pressure/ break through them. Torn is also the most viable user of Taunt as of rn and an excellent defogger, which shuts down Pex from poisoning whole teams. If that leaves then T Spikes on Pex will definitely see an increase in usage, as Pex can T Spike in front of something that hits it super effectively and switch out the damage, putting an immense pressure on the opposing team to defog them away.

I'm definitely interested to see how the metagame will develop once voting commences, but I believe that certain threats leaving will shape the metagame to a point where there will have to be another round of voting in order to balance everything out.

 

[Zneon]

Alright time to give my thoughts and perspective on what I feel are the most banworthy Pokemon as of right now and why I want them to be banned for a significantly more healthy and balanced metagame, and I really falls on how all of these Pokemon constrict building in their own way and as a result make it no only incredibly hard to deal with them without using Stall, but really due to how they make the metagame significantly more matchup-based, making it a significantly less competitive metagame.

_ _ _

Okay now with that out of the way, let's move onto the topic at hand, I'll go over the 2 biggest, most centralising and constraining Pokemon first. It should come as no surprise to anyone but they are in fact Urshifu and Mega Metagross. I'll go over Mega Metagross first out of the five, the other 3 will be touched on shortly, which I feel are less constraining on the metagame than these 2.

Mega Metagross

Mega Metagross is an incredibly centralising force when it comes to teambuilding, with its phenomenal offensive prowess coupled with its amazing defensive stats and typing, Mega Metagross is capable of pretty much wearing down the opponent and it can do it multiple times due to its ability to switch in on a vast majority of stuff, and its problem where there are a very small pool of Pokemon that can switch into Metagross. Tangrowth, Slowbro and Alomomola can easily be worn down by Toxic variants which have been incredibly common and Mega Scizor is capable of losing to Meteor Mash / Thunder Punch hax, which is another big problem as it is pretty much capable of beating through its checks due to the fact that all of its required moves have a secondary effect, heavily favouring the Mega Metagross player as Meta Metagross can easily overwhelm the opposing team once its check is gone due to Meta Metagross having so few counters. Its incredibly unhealthy amount of strain to the teambuilder and centralisation will only further be a detriment to the metagame.

Urshifu

Urshifu is incredibly unhealthy and I feel it is to a greater extent than Meta Metagross. Urshifu has almost no good switch-ins other than Pokemon such as Clefable and more niche picks such as Mega Altaria, Buzzwole and even Galarian Weezing. I feel Urshifu is too restricting to teambuilding as it forces at least one of these Pokemon onto your team in order to not be overwhelmed by its wallbreaking abilities. When it has a free switch in it can either kill something or if its checks are present, it can just simply pivot out with U-turn into something that can beat one of its checks like Mega Metagross and Mega Scizor, and with the check gone it will always either get a kill or dent something incredibly hard, this, along with its incredibly spammable STABs makes Urshifu incredibly hard to deal with in practice, not only that but its incredibly unhealthy and detrimental effect on the teambuilder is a big reason why I feel this is a no-brainer Pokemon to be put onto the slate.

_ _ _

Moving onto the last 3, being Ash Greninja, Tornadus-T and Galarian Darmanitan. I'm mentioning them here because, while they are Pokemon that you always need to account for, I find them to be less metagame warping than Urshifu and Mega Metagross. But anyway here we go:

Ash Greninja

Ash Greninja is definitely a Pokemon that you cannot really skip when it comes to teambuilding, its absurd power, amazing speed tier and great STAB combination all come together to make an incredibly dangerous Pokemon both on paper and in practice. Adequate checks to it such as AV Tangrowth and SpDef Clefable are incredibly hard to fit in a metagame where Meta Metagross and Urshifu are always demanding attention in the teambuilder, and Tapu Fini, Kommo-o and AV Magearna are easily worn down by hazards and Ash Greninja firing off moves due to their lack of recovery, making it even harder to account, especially when you factor in Spikes which make it even easier for its checks to be worn down. Fitting a Dark resist onto Bulky offense and Balance along with a Urshifu and Mega Metagross check without losing something important like good hazard control or hazard setter just goes to show the state of the tier right now, and Ash Greninja's effect on teambuilding as well as how effective it is in practice further amplifies this problem.



Tornadus-T

Tornadus-T also negatively effects teambuilding to an extent, as you will need something that can take advantage of Tornadus-T such as Tapu Koko, I find this Pokemon to be hard to deal with in its own way, its access to Regenerator and amazing utility moves such as Knock Off and U-turn allows it to make progress no matter what team you're playing against, and it is able to outlast a vast majority of Flying-resists because of it, and it doesn't help that none of the Flying-resists like Heatran and Rotom-H want their item to be knocked off, however it makes it harder to deal with if you take into consideration that it can run unorthodox sets for one of your answers, it can run Taunt for bulkier builds a long with a Z move, or it can run Fightinium Z instead of the usual Flynium Z for Mega Tyranitar and Heatran. The Pokemon has a vast amount of options and with how hard it is to take advantage of and wear down gives this Pokemon a well deserved point onto the slate.



Galarian Darmanitan

And last we have Galarian Darmanitan, now even though I feel this is worse than the rest of the five in terms of how restricting it is, you cannot ignore its impact on the metagame, forcing a vast majority of builds to run a Bulky Water type such as Slowbro and Alomomola due to this Pokemon, and it is harder to deal when you factor in status support from Pokemon like Toxapex and Mega Metagross which makes it easier to deal with these threats. While it is much easier to deal with due to these Pokemon, I feel these are products of Galarian Darmanitans unheathy effect on the builder. Now in practice due to all of these things, Galarian Darmanitan is sigificantly easier to deal with in practice than the other 5, which is the main reason I feel it is the less oppressing, along with the hazard weakness making it hard for it to click U-turn safely and wear things down, however if you factor the precautions people I going about when it comes to checking this Pokemon, I feel it goes to show the impact it is having when it comes to building.

_ _ _

Conclusion

So these are the first Pokemon that I would address first when it comes to the first slate, there are other Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny and Toxapex that I want to keep a close eye on, as I feel they are definitely strong presences in the metagame but don't effect it in the way that these 5 do.

 

[HoodedZack]

I have 5 major suspects for this slate: Urshifu, Mega Metagross, Galarian Darmanitan, Tornadus-T, and Ash Greninja. These 5 are overwhelming to the meta and restrict team building. Their offensive presence and pressure are fairly obvious to anyone who has played recently, and they need to go.

Urshifu is a very obvious threat with it’s amazing Attack and Speed stat, coupled with It’s powerful STAB attacks, movepool, and ability. Wicked Blow is also able to ignore stat changes. The only things that really stop it are niche picks such as Buzzwole and Iron Defense Mega Slowbro. It’s Band set if overwhelming and unhealthy.

I opted to ban Mega Metagross in the suspect as well, and I’m not changing my stance. It’s incredible bulk and Attack make it a powerful threat. It’s true weapon, though, lies in its moves’ secondary effects. Meteor Mash Attack raises, Thunder Punch paralysis, and Zen Headbutt flinches make it able to break through its counters with only a little bit of luck.

G-Darmanitan’s ability Gorrila Tactics gives it an unprecedented 567 Attack off the bat, which is mainly used in combination with Choice Scarf, letting it outspeed and devastate most of an opponent’s team. Outside of Alomomola, there aren’t any pokemon that can continually switch into it well.

Tornadus-T is one of my favorite mons to use in National Dex. Its movepool makes it one of the best utility mons in the game, being able to taunt, defog, and Knock Off items. Not only that, but its Z-Move + Taunt sets basically trample on bulky offense and balance. It's one of the offensive pivots, being fast, strong, and having Regenerator. It’s utility and movepool make it exceptionally versatile and unpredictable.

Finally, Ash Greninja is one of the biggest reasons you always need to have a water or dark resist on your team. It can revenge kill fairly often with it’s good speed, and is able to rely on Water Shuriken for faster threats. Dark Pulse also has a 20% to flinch, meaning that even if you’re 2HKO’d, you still run the risk of simply being flinched down.

To summarize, these 5 mons have an incredible grip on the current metagame, and are making the meta become unhealthy. They are powerful alone, but become especially destructive when you pair them together. I believe that removing them then systematically retesting them is the fastest and most effective way to help the metagame.

 

[theotherguytm]

’m kind of tired of this discussion happening in EVERY. SINGLE. THREAD., posted by people who think “Dracovish is only dealt with by having water immunities”, which is so untrue to the point where I question if these people even play the metagame


Choice Scarf Dracovish is straight out countered by the water-resistant Regenerator threats, Ferrothorn, the newly resurgent Mega Altaria, in addition to how it’s offensively checked by every viable Choice Scarf user and Lopunny-M / Dragapult by nature of its own horrendous speed tier for a Choice Scarf user.

Choice Band Dracovish doesn’t necessarily have switch-ins per se, but it sacrifices all matchups against every relevant offensive threat. In addition to all the offensive counterplay listed above, things like Urshifu, Kyurem, and even Tapu Fini now can outspeed and KO with little effort, Mega Slowbro’s existence notwithstanding. Choice Band Dracovish relies on the opponent being unwilling to make an aggressive double switch, opponents who struggle with their positioning / picking the appropriate sack, or opponents who have teams unable to properly punish a lock-in, qualities which are not necessarily a problem with Dracovish itself.

So this isn’t entirely negative, I implore prospective posters to think a little harder about how things fit into the metagame and ask yourself things like “If Dracovish is as good as I think it is, why don’t teams run a water immunity more commonly?” and “If these teams are not running Water Immunities in favor of checking other things, is Dracovish really the main problem here?” , etcetera

Just going to reply to this to agree, yes, it's not broken.
But the argument isn't about whether it's broken.
Firstly, I just want to point out Seismitoad is on the VR for no reason other than Vish's existence. Obviously it's not a common or very good pick, but the fact it is considered a viable pick at all says a lot. Edit: Ok fact check, it was C+ last gen for the niche of being a Heatran check, fair.
Anyway, the main point why I am unhappy with Dracovish is it is uncompetitive. Not necessarily broken, but uncompetitive. From Team Preview, you know exactly what it is going to do. And the impact it has on a game is largely decided from Team Preview. You either have the counterplay to keep it at bay for a few turns or you don't and are going to lose. There's no such thing as "soft checking" Dracovish. It's either halted, or you're saccing a mon every time it enters the field of play. No other mon is as matchup reliant or as polarizing in its performance, and it is largely independent of the skill of the two players involved. Dracovish relies much less on prediction than most Choiced Pokemon, and when Banded its counterplay is basically non-existent whenever it gets in against something that it forces out. I could go on and on about how "answers" to the Banded set just don't exist beyond building a team of 6 Vish checks. (You can aggressive double switch and position all you like, I have Teleport). But anyway, I would like to see it included on the first slate at least to gauge council opinion on why it should stay, and I believe it's a problem that will need addressing down the line. While it is not the most obvious problem with the metagame, its disproportionate impact on games where a player lacks a hard answer to it makes it uncompetitive.

 

[Jordy]

I don't really want to get into an argument over why a Pokemon is considered viable, as I find it important to stick to the topic, so please don't reply to this post here, but Seismitoad brings more to the table than just being a Dracovish check. One of its more appealing qualities other than checking Dracovish is that it's a Stealth Rock setter and a Heatran check that isn't bothered by Toxic too much thanks to Refresh, which is really useful for bulky offense teams. It's important to fully understand a Pokemon's niche before trying to use it to inaccurately support your argument.

 

[Jordy]

double post woo

Hey everyone, as promised, everyone on the council will be making a post outlining their thoughts on some issues in National Dex. Here are mine!

To preface, the Pokemon that I would like to see a vote on are the following: Mega Metagross, Urshifu, Tornadus-T, Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, and Toxapex. All these Pokemon have a high impact on the National Dex landscape; I do not think every one of these is outright broken and I likely won't even be voting Ban on all of these if we do vote on them, but I do believe that it is potentially worth reassessing their position in National Dex.


Mega Metagross is absolutely the biggest issue in my eyes. The way in which it restricts teambuilding is really ridiculous. Its pool of defensive checks is fairly big, consisting of Pokemon like Slowbro, Mega Scizor, Hippowdon, Alomomola, and Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, but the issue is that it is so versatile, none of these besides Mega Scizor can really be considered consistent. Slowbro, Hippowdon, Alomomola, and Rocky Helmet Tangrowth are all bothered hugely by Toxic, which will easily make them lose out long-term. Because these Pokemon really aren't consistent enough on their own, you will often have to pair them with backup checks like Gliscor and Ferrothorn; I think you can see where the restricting issues arise. Mega Metagross doesn't have a good option to overwhelm Mega Scizor on paper, but in practice it will oftentimes find itself overwhelmed long-term as it continues to switch into Thunder Punch, risking paralysis, while also not really doing any damage to Mega Metagross back. Magnezone also exists to help with this issue.

On top of being such a versatile threat with no consistent counterplay, Mega Metagross is extremely resilient and brings a lot of defensive utility to the table, which is why it is so easy to fit onto a lot of teams. Because of its resistance to Stealth Rock, it is practically impossible to wear Mega Metagross down quickly, and it has the bulk needed to afford switching into Tornadus-T's Hurricane a couple of times. It doesn't really struggle to switch into play either, as it can easily take advantage of Pokemon such as Tapu Fini and Clefable, as well as some other Pokemon like Toxapex with Misty Terrain in play.

If the above wasn't enough, there's a lot of elements of luck entangled in Mega Metagross counterplay too. Between Meteor Mash's chance to raise Attack, Zen Headbutt's chance to flinch, and Thunder Punch's chance to paralyze, combined with how often Mega Metagross can get into play without being worn down quickly, it has the ability to muscle through teams by playing with chances long-term very consistently. Combined with Mega Metagross's versatile options, it is an almost uncounterable threat and I do not think that it's a healthy addition to the National Dex metagame.

"What if we took Mega Medicham, and made it have even fewer checks courtesy of an even better typing, a broken move, and U-turn?" - Game Freak while brainstorming ideas for Urshifu

On a more serious note, I think Urshifu is clearly too much to deal with for the metagame. On paper, it is very similar to Pokemon like Mega Medicham, but its STAB combination makes a huge difference; Mega Medicham can be checked by Psychic-types such as Slowbro and Reuniclus, as well as some other Pokemon like Aegislash defensively. Meanwhile, Urshifu has harshly tainted teambuilding as it really only has one defensive check in Clefable, which is very susceptible to a singular Poison Jab and can be exploited by U-turn into Pokemon like Mega Metagross or Magearna. There are some other defensive checks such as Tapu Fini and Mega Altaria available, but the former lacks reliable recovery and will oftentimes end up being overwhelmed by it as a result, while the latter is rather niche and can similarly to Clefable be exploited by Pokemon like Mega Metagross and Magearna.

I do find it important to acknowledge that Urshifu has plenty of offensive counterplay between Pokemon such as Tornadus-T, Mega Lopunny, and Ash-Greninja, which can fit onto teams very conveniently. Furthermore, it is definitely hard for Urshifu to switch into play; there are not a lot of Pokemon that it can directly take advantage of and really the only opportunities it gets to switch into play are through support from pivots against more passive Pokemon like Alomomola, Chansey, and Ferrothorn.

Urshifu is not some uncounterable beast and it has its fair share of flaws that deserve to be pointed out, but I believe that Urshifu is rather overwhelming to deal with for the metagame regardless, between the way it affects teambuilding and its small list of mediocre inconsistent counterplay.


Tornadus-T has all the tools it needs to always make progress. Tornadus-T really does not have sufficient counterplay; checks such as Heatran, Mega Tyranitar, Magearna, Rotom-H, Chansey, and Aegislash are all prone to being worn down really quickly. With Knock Off, it can harshly cripple all these Pokemon, as they either worn down too quickly or are completely reliant on their item in Chansey's case. Beyond that, different move options such as Focus Blast combined with Fightinium Z, Heat Wave, and Taunt all make it very hard to deal with for these Pokemon. Out of all the checks available, Zapdos is perhaps the most reliable, but it really does not take kindly to Knock Off, as forcing it to take 25% from Stealth Rock every time really isn't great for it. Regenerator makes it almost impossible to deal with Tornadus-T too; it can hardly be worn down. There's definitely outs against Tornadus-T, but the lack of consistent counterplay that it has really makes me question whether it has a place in National Dex.


Ash-Greninja is another very demanding Pokemon to check in the tier. It almost always mandates a sturdy Water-resistant Pokemon combined with a Dark-resistant Pokemon such as Clefable and Magearna, just so that you aren't prone to flinches from Dark Pulse. There's a couple other checks available, such as Tapu Fini, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, and Chansey, but there isn't much more than that.

I don't think Ash-Greninja is entirely at fault here; on paper, this really does not seem too demanding, but the state of the tier massively benefits it, preventing a Pokemon like Tangrowth from running Assault Vest because it has to check Mega Metagross, and a Pokemon like Toxapex being forced into more physically defensive spreads to check Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan reliably, and different moves than Baneful Bunker.

Without Pokemon such as Mega Metagross and Galarian Darmanitan, you would need much less role compression and many more checks to Ash-Greninja would be truly affordable. Like I said, I don't think Ash-Greninja is entirely at fault and its problematic presence mostly stems from the overall state of the metagame. I do not think now is the ideal time to ban Ash-Greninja and would like to experience it in a metagame post-bans first.


Galarian Darmanitan is a very oppressive force in the metagame. It forces a bulky Water-type such as Alomomola, Toxapex, and Slowbro onto almost every team, and there's little other consistent options to choose from. Galarian Darmanitan certainly has checks as you can tell, they are quickly prone to being overwhelmed by its strong U-turn, and otherwise support from Toxic Spikes or Pokemon like Mega Metagross with Toxic. Galarian Darmanitan honestly does not have to make much of an effort to overwhelm its checks beyond spamming U-turn. It really only has to predict against cores such as Toxapex + Flying-type / Levitate user. Choice Scarf sets are incredibly potent against more offensively oriented teams, which simply don't have room for the Pokemon needed to consistently check it, but I don't think it is an issue on its own. I think the issue really comes above when you take its Choice Band set into consideration as well, which simply does not have defensive counterplay. It may be easier to answer offensively, but you cannot underestimate how valuable it is to OHKO a Toxapex as it simply comes in to scout and see what you do, it can open up entire games.

Between the small amount of checks to Galarian Darmanitan, and the fact it can overwhelm most with very little support or its Choice Band set, I think Galarian Darmanitan is too much for the metagame.


Toxapex is very much so unlike the other Pokemon here, but the way in which it affects the offensive and defensive landscape of National Dex is worth putting into question in my opinion. With access to Scald, Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and excellent overall bulk, Toxapex is truly a disruptive Pokemon unlike any other, actively forcing people to prepare for it with Pokemon like Gliscor, Clefable, Alakazam, and Reuniclus. It really does not have a lot of good offensive counterplay; Pokemon such as Mega Medicham and Tapu Lele are very prone to burns from Scald and being worn down quickly by Toxic poison. Beyond that, Toxic Spikes are truly incredible in this metagame and actually force a fair bit of one dimensionality; the best Toxic Spikes setter is easily Toxapex, and the best Poison-type available to absorb it is also Toxapex. As you can see, this can oftentimes lead towards some awkward teambuilding inticracies. Don't get me wrong though, Toxapex definitely benefits the metagame a lot as a defensive presence, checking many Pokemon such as Ash-Greninja, Volcarona, Galarian Darmanitan, and Mega Scizor. The fact that it can constrict offensive counterplay so heavily definitely makes it a Pokemon worth questioning in my eyes, however.

 

[Padstar34]

Megagross: Kill it.
Urshifu: Kill it.
Darm-G: I like Ooga Booga Hopping Fire Mode... But still Kill it.
Ash-Gren: Suspect after the others are Killed.
Torn-T: I don't think it needs to be suspected at all, but thats my opinion.
Dracovish: Shut up.
My reasons have all already been said by others, but in summary;
Megagross is very hard to beat and pressures teambuilding way too much
Urshifu is counterless and is very similar to megagross, albeit causing less teambuilding issues
Darm-G is rediculous against offensive teams.
Ash-Gren is the same, albeit to a lesser extent.
Torn-T is very annoying and hard to have counterplay too, and is very hard to beat.
Dracovish is Shut The Fuck up.

 

[WolfishOne]

This thing NEEDS to go. It would be fine if it was just another wallbreaker (admittedly still top tier) but this thing's insane bulk leaves it incredibly hard to take down. Toxic Sets just completely murder their traditional checks with only mega scizor able to check it which is prone to being worn down.

:Ash-Greninja: This thing isn't too bad but rather a product of the unbalanced state of the metagame. I think we should suspect this at a later date.

Ah yes the king of beasts. This is the opposite of a matchup fish. It always put's in work and has the ability to cripple it's checks and still keep healthy with regen.

"What if we gave this thing worse huge power but let it hold any item it wants?"

I will jump up and down like a school girl if this goes because who likes the pex but I don't really think it's too overcentralizing

 

[Jho]

Just want to round out the councils posts with my own thoughts here. A lot has already been said so I doubt I will have anything new to add but here are my thoughts regardless:

Pokemon that should be looked at in the first wave:

Metagross is by far the biggest issue in the metagame in my opinion as it invalidates many checks to the other strong Pokemon, as well as having extremely limited consistent defensive counterplay itself. While you can list many Pokemon that can take 2 hits from Metagross, such as Tangrowth, Slowbro, Alomomola, Hippowdon, Corviknight etc, these Pokemon are often forced to continuously recover versus Metagross, relying on Rocky Helmet chip damage to beat it, meaning that your Metagross check is entirely reliant on not getting Knocked Off in order to win out long term. Once Knocked Off, all of these Pokemon give Metagross free opportunities to fish for secondary effects such as Crits, Paralysis, Attack Boosts, and Flinches as they are forced to spam their recovery move. This is made worse by the recent trend of Metagross utilizing Toxic in order to beat all of these Pokemon long term without requiring these Pokemon to be Knocked Off. You also have to take into account all of the various coverage Metagross can run in its 4th slot, such as Earthquake and Hammer Arm, meaning that you cant always rely on Pokemon such as Ferrothorn for example. All of this leads to teams typically requiring 2 answers to Metagross at the minimum, usually 3 though since teams will often need a way to revenge kill Metagross on top of this OR teams to run a reliable answer to Mega Metagross which includes:
Mega Scizor; which cant really pressure Metagross in return and is still susceptible to some attack boosts.
end of list.

Now there are a lot of Pokemon which have limited defensive counterplay, and these are usually balanced around having a lot of offensive counterplay; being easy to revenge kill or hard to bring in for example, however, with Metagross this isn't really the case as it is incredibly bulky even uninvested and its typing is incredibly potent defensively, allowing it to switch into many common Pokemon, such as Tornadus-T, Tapu Fini, Clefable etc without much recourse.

All of this leads to Metagross being incredibly difficult to deal with consistently and incredibly constricting in the teambuilder to an unhealthy extent in my opinion, and its for these reasons that I think Metagross should be removed from the National Dex metagame.


It is hard to tell whether Ash Greninja being so hard to deal with is a product of other strong threats or by its own virtue, however, I do believe the effect it has on the metagame currently is incredibly constraining. Ash Gren is part of the reason that a bulky Water-type is mandatory on most teams. However, a lot of counterplay to Ash Greninja is hindered by the fact that they also often have to be answers to Galarian Darmanitan, so Pokemon like Tapu Fini which have no recovery are very easily worn down and become unable to check Ash Gren quickly, or Pokemon like Toxapex which is forced to run Defense investment in order to reliably pivot into Darmanitan, making its matchup versus Ash Greninja a little worse.

A lot of problems also arise with Ash Greninja due to how well other prominent threats, such as Metagross and Urshifu, can remove its checks and vise versa. This leads to a metagame state where Ash Greninja is incredibly strong but it is very difficult to tell whether it is Ash Greninja itself being the overwhelming force that allows all of this to happen, or if it is the result of the state of the metagame. Either way this tiering method will allow us to single it out and look at its effect on the metagame in a vacuum which I think will be incredibly important. I'm not sure if I will vote ban on Ash Greninja or not at this point, but I do believe it should be on the first slate for these reasons.

I think that everything has been said already about Urshifu - its a very linear Pokemon in that it clicks Wicked Blow and things die. There is not a whole lot that can take 2 hits from Urshifu's STAB combination, and the mons that can (namely, Mega Altaria, Clefable, and Tapu fini) are susceptible to a well timed Poison Jab or a U-turn into Mega Metagross. Urshifu just has far too little defensive counterplay and has warped the meta considerably, to the point where Clefable is on a staggering amount of teams in the current metagame. While you can technically pivot around Wicked Blow by going into Toxapex and then doubling into a Dark resist like Roost Hydreigoin or Mandibuzz - you can only do this limited times with Toxapex as Wicked Blow does far more than it can recover with Regenerator and even Dark resistant Pokemon like the aforementioned Hydreigon take a LOT from Urshifu and are forced to recover, and Pokemon like Mandibuzz cant really pressure it.

Despite being incredibly metagame warping, I do think its important to reiterate what Jordy said - Urshifu has plenty of offensive counterplay and can be incredibly difficult to get in safely so saying that it just clicks Wicked Blow and there is no counterplay is not accurate. However, I do not think that the counterplay available is enough to outweigh the massive constraints Urshifu has on teambuilding in the National Dex metagame and ultimately, I think it should be banned.


Tornadus-T is a very interesting one for me as I think that it's utility and role as a hazard removal option is something very healthy for the meta. However, what I do not find healthy about Tornadus-T is how easily it forces progress thanks to its access to Knock Off, U-turn, and Regenerator. On top of this, their are very few Pokemon that win against Tornadus-T long term, as Steel-types such as Heatran and Magearna for example hate losing their Leftovers and are freely chipped down by hazards and Tornadus-T's attacks and have no recovery to prevent this progress from happening. Many people know that I was a big proponent of Toxapex being "the best flying resist in the tier" due to its ability to take on Tornadus-T but recent adaptations towards Taunt Tornadus has further decreased the pool of Pokemon that can reliably take on Tornadus-T to the point where Zapdos has rose in usage an incredible amount as it is perhaps the most consistent check to Tornadus-T, despite hating losing its Heavy Duty Boots to Knock Off.

When trying to check Tornadus-T you also have to be incredibly wary of the plethora of Z moves it can run as Flyinium, Fightium, and Firium all have viable uses and allow Tornadus-T to blow through would-be checks very easily.

All of this combined makes me think that the limited pool of counterplay that Tornadus-T has outweighs its positive impact on the metagame and I think that this makes it deserve a spot on the first slate of potential bans.


Darmanitan has a similar effect on the metagame to Ash Greninja in my eyes but to a slightly more unhealthy extent - it forces bulky Water-types onto teams and forces Rocky Helmet onto Pokemon such as Alomomola and Slowbro (similar to Mega Metagross) in order to prevent it from making progress for free with its incredibly strong U-turns. There isn't too much to say about Darmanitan that hasn't already been said except that I believe its biggest limiting factor to be its weakness to residual damage, such as the aforementioned Rocky Helmets, as well as Stealth Rock which greatly limits its longevity meaning that oftentimes Darmanitan only gets a few opportunities to come in. I am not sure whether this issue is enough to outweigh the effect that Darmanitan has on the teambuilder due to its very limited counterplay options (especially if you consider the mind games it can pull between Scarf and Banded sets - although granted Choice Band is not common at all) but I do believe that Darmanitan deserves to be voted on as it is very clearly warping the meta, as you can see from the incredible amount of Alomomola everywhere.


I also think that on top of these 5 Pokemon, Mega Lopunny should be looked at: possibly not in the first slate but definitely at some point down the line. Its newfound access to U-turn gives it the ability to support a whole lot of incredibly potent wallbreakers. Due its somewhat limited counterplay options, it is very easy to pair Mega Lopunny with Pokemon that can almost always make progress versus its checks and since Mega Lopunny can force so many switches, it is very easy to get these free turns to use U-turn. The most notable benefactor of this up until now has been Kyurem, as it can easily force out and set up substitutes on all of Mega Lopunnys checks (Tangrowth, Alomomola, Slowbro, Hippowdon etc) bar Clefable. On top of this, Mega Lopunny also makes matchups versus offensive teams much easier due to its speed tier and access to strong priority. This is important as the strong wallbreakers that Mega Lopunny pairs with so well are typically kept in check by their susceptibility to more offensive play styles and this dynamic typically gives Mega Lopunny teams very solid matchups across the board and makes them very difficult to prepare for.

However, the reason I think Mega Lopunny isn't as important to look at right now is that the prominence of many of the Pokemon that it can abuse are results of the metagame as a whole. On top of this, it is also fairly difficult to see just how good Lopunny is when it is currently very difficult to build the types of teams Mega Lopunny is good on, due to the constraints that the other Pokemon mentioned here put on the metagame. It does, however, say a lot that even now when balance is almost none existent, Mega Lopunny is considered one of the best Pokemon in the tier. If this Pokemon doesn't make it into the first slate I would like to see it looked at in the future after we see how it performs in a meta without the more obviously unhealthy threats.