The Double Battle Metagame (GBU)

[cosmicexplorer]

There really isn't a "strongest" playstyle; all playstyles work well against certain others (i.e. TR v Rain), but as always, it depends upon the team and the player using it. A more accurate representation wouldn't be a list, but a flowchart showing which team archetype does better against another (don't actually do this, though, since any list would have its validity fiercely disputed for the aforementioned reasons).

 

[Ashenlock]

Well im happy all that time I spent in gbu might actually pay off, which is why I like the idea of open VGC.

What's a better explanation of why I'm slightly bothered by it is because I fear I'll become the cocky "I was here before you" bastard to people who before never played open Doubles.

EDIT:

There really isn't a "strongest" playstyle; all playstyles work well against certain others (i.e. TR v Rain), but as always, it depends upon the team and the player using it. A more accurate representation wouldn't be a list, but a flowchart showing which team archetype does better against another (don't actually do this, though, since any list would have its validity fiercely disputed for the aforementioned reasons).

This is almost precisely what I believe, and I was thinking about this earlier today. But it also sort of works like Pokemon typing; while different types do different things, there are ones that, just because of the juxtapositioning of all other types, end up working a little better than others in one respect or another. I think rain, for instance, does have counters, but it's one of the best "general" themes, taken in context with all other strategies. It's like life; there aren't clear boundaries and yes/no divisions often, but a very, very fine gradient. A better example might be a topography map or a mountain in it: the mountain doesn't begin or end but by human designation.

I got a little off-topic there, but I think you understand. What I'm saying is that we can't go by a strict tiering of strategies, as much as to say "Strategy-One is inherently superier to Strategy-Two" but rather "Strategy-One is generally better than Strategy-Two, because Strategy-Two has to adjust itself to deal with Strategy-Three and Strategy-Four."

 

[soul_survivor]

What's a better explanation of why I'm slightly bothered by it is because I fear I'll become the cocky "I was here before you" bastard to people who before never played open Doubles.

Hah i felt like that last year in line when I was surrounded by seniors who wouldn't make it past rd2. Me and my friends gloated about how easy it'd be. Well I made t8, and my friends got beat rds 4 and 2...


@Cosmicexplorer

Yea, it all comes down to the player. A tailwind team could battle a trickroom team which would normally be a easy win for trickroom, but tw end up winning.


I personally believe in anti-weather builds. Goodstuff teams with certain pokemon to deal with threats, like teching in timid colo jik you battle a rain team, and having a pokemon that can combat sand like chomp/fighting pokemon, while maintaining a core idea. weather it be spread attacks, fake out + substitute, fake out + icywind/ t-wave, or follow me strategies.

 

[muffinhead]

Many people actually guessed this VGC's ruleset correctly, and they have been practicing pretty much nonstop since worlds ended. On top of that, many of the people who played VGC 11 practiced on the GBU, so a decent amount of players will already have experience. No one is really ahead or behind compared to everyone else. Players call even use VGC 09 knowledge when battling or teambuilding, only one gen was added (and almost everyone has experience with VGC 11).

^^

 

[Ashenlock]

I didn't mean that being that cocky bastard would be justified, and I certainly don't believe I'm in the upper echelons of skilled doubles players, only its a sort of line of thought people get sometimes, like the guy who read the book before the movie version came out and has to let everyone know.

 

[soul_survivor]

Of course that doesn't justify being a cocky bastard. Players still need to keep a level of sportsmanship. Even if they no whats gonna happen during the match. Like even though i knew i would win half my matches i'd still encourage my opponent not to give up.

Waaaaayyyyyyyy off topic XD.

Also @ muffinhead, that scizor moveset you posted here seems to be very popular in gbu's currently. 66% of rain teams run acrobatics scizor. Also Its odd but I haven't seen not 1 shedninja in gbu. Not even teched in..

 

[cosmicexplorer]

lol don't worry ashenlock everyone knew what you meant.

The reason that Scizor is used so often is that it's baller as fuck, meaning that it really does an excellent job of taking out most Pokemon that stop rain teams.

How are the VGC 2012 rules different from GBU doubles, if at all, an how does this affect the meta (if at all)?

 

[Ashenlock]

The only difference of any weight I can tell is that Dark Void is not allowed. There is also the possibility (since I don't think it's been yet defined) that obscure moves won't be allowed, like Tri Attack Toge, because of the wording of part of the rules.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

What do you mean because of the wording? I didn't see anything myself when I looked (although admittedly I didn't do much more than skim).

 

[Ashenlock]

It's this, but I was really more quoting someone else who had noticed it, not me:

Pokémon may only use moves that have been learned through one of the following methods:
o By leveling up
o By TM or HM
o As an Egg move, through breeding
o From a character in the game
o A move already known by a Pokémon received at an official Pokémon event or promotion

But now that I look at it, it doesn't seem to exclude anything like what I was describing.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, that just means you can't hack a move onto a Pokemon; "the game" (I believe) refers to all of the Pokemon games. If it only means Black and White, that means no HGSS tutors, which would reduce the viability of quite a few Pokemon.

 

[soul_survivor]

I think I found my fool proof way of dealing with rain w/o having to tech in a swift swimmer. I've been using curse ferrathorn. The underated threat that with fake out + 1 curse can become incredibly hard for rain to stop him even with a mon like croak. This is the only pokemon i ever thought of using a boost with. Did i mention if you manage to ko fire types in SS ferrathorn easily can set up on tar. Heres my set:

ferrathorn@sitrus berry
sassy
252 hp, 252 sp.def
-curse
-leech seed/protect
-gyro ball
-power whip.


Pretty darn foolproof if you ask me. So wht are your thoughts on anti-weather.

 

[Ashenlock]

Ferrothorn is a big reason to have a Fighting-type on your rain team; I know it was an important thing I took into account when making one.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I believe it was tad38 that recently wrecked me with Ferrothorn. I was using Terrakion and Chandelure, too x.x. Intimidate support lets Ferro live so many hits it's not even funny.

 

[soul_survivor]

yup I agree with you ashenlock.

But most players i battle use generic rain teams running toed, 2 swift swimmers, dragon type, thunderus, steel type here, or gastro.

Of all rain teams i battled randomly there were only two- five drizzle teams that had a unique solid drizzle team. One was zog's drizzle team. I seen why his rating was so high, and the other 4 were japanese players all ranked pretty high. One ran tailwind rain. I was caight off guard on how powerful a gem boosted water spout can be in rain from a jellicent. Thats all i remember except like 2 other tailwind rain which i got the W, but thats it.

 

[Steepled Hat]

For the imprison + trick room tactic, would you use azelf, uxie or mespirit? I was using an azelf for a while, with U-turn, Zen Headbutt, Trick Room, Imprison. I was kinda wanting some more bulk, so maybe uxie, but mespirit seems to have a nice even defensive/offensive distribution. So, what do you guys suggest.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Personally, I'd rather use Chandelure or Musharna, as they both have excellent utility outside of just stopping Trick Room, with Chandelure's excellent Special Attack and coverage, and Musharna's bulk and access to Helping Hand and Telepathy. While the Sinnoh pixies are viable, I don't see any reason to use them over Chandelure or Musharna.

 

[Ashenlock]

And that's besides that Chandelure and Musharna are much easier to obtain; if you decide the nature you got isn't good enough, you can just breed another one. I had to play a whole new Platinum just to get one Azelf I wanted.

 

[Steepled Hat]

Chandelure's utility is really diminished in the rain, correct? I normally go to rain as my counter weather, and I've seen quite a few sand/trick room teams recently. I want to use one of the pixies so I can try out this strategy. The pixie would hold a bug gem.
My general tactic for dealing with TR would be:
1. Poke1 - Imprison Poke2 - Taunt Amoongus if present
2. Poke1 - Zen Headbutt Amoongus if present u -turn otherwise
Poke2 - Attack to KO an opponent
Continue until end.
(For give the vagueness, it is hard to convey specifics for this sort of thing.)
U-turn get's SE damage against Musharna, reniculus and whmisicott.
Zen Headbutt is STAB and also handles Amoongus well.
I mean, it works with Azelf pretty will. I just wondered, between the other two pixies, who would you go for?

 

[soul_survivor]

I haven't seen what you run, but to me sunny day is the best counter weather. It stops the ever so common rain teams, and stops blizzard abuse. Also sun isn't that common either.

But on the topic of imprison chandy is still great even with rain being so common. The only reason to run imprison lure is vs Trick room teams. You won.t bring chandy vs rain anyway.....,

 

[MMX]

I'm thinking of using a HailRoom team for the VGC. This is my first time actually getting into the metagame, so I'd like some advice on how to go about creating it.

Thanks to whoever can help me.

 

[soul_survivor]

I can help as I ran a effective hailroom. I don't want to write a storm but I can list a few good mons for hail room

jellicent-A amazing trick roomer that can hit with water spout and blizzard
abamasnow-Do i need to explain him
fighting pokemon- MUST RUN. As steel prominently walls hail, fighting types are needed. Some fighters include:
-hariyama
-machamp
-scafty
-conkeldurr

-Cresselia's a pretty decent option. With access to helping hand to help blizzards already massive strength, and screens. Cress also carries psycic, a notable attack against fighting types.

-fire resist mon
Another vital type of pokemon needed. I would recommend

-chandelure: amazing trick roomer and has heat wave as a spread move
-heatran: Now if you can get your hands on eruption tran you pretty much got youself a all-round fire resister. Eruption is a powerful spread, as you probaly won't lead him making sure you got a 100% powerful eruption.

gastrodon: the anti weather himself. He's pretty self explanatory.


I would go on but here are some notables i skipped
-metagross
-reuniclus
-scizor.
-amoonguss

Also here are some tips:

-Having abamasnow in the back can be very potent, as you can switch in on a resist, get weather and have a ur other mon have a blizzard ready.
-jelli/chandy work well with the synergy of hailroom. So one is recommended.
-If opting eruptran, cresselia/reuniclus both are amazing set-uppers and deal with the fighters that plague ran.

 

[Ashenlock]

I support soul survivor's advice. I'm working on a hailroom team right now and followed the same ideas; 5/6 pokemon on my current draw-up are in his post.

Because of their useful resistances, I wouldn't even say it's a bad idea to have both Jellicent and Chandelure on the same team.

 

[MMX]

If I were to run Chandelure, would a modest nature work on it? If not, I can always breed one with Quiet. Also, what set would Gastrodon run?

 

[Ashenlock]

I run on my Gastrodons:

Muddy Water
Blizzard
Earth Power
Protect

Muddy Water can be exchanged if you want more reliability. HP Electric looks attractive for Gastrodon, but the skilled rain users I've seen seldom have more than 1-2 Electric-weak Pokemon in their roster, besides which, HP Electric only hits a little harder than STAB Earth Power.

I would get the Quiet Chandelure, as its at least average speed is going to get in the way of Trick Room. Base ~40 Speed-ers could get away with it, but Chandelure really wants as little Speed as possible.

EDIT: I meant Blizzard, not Ice Beam >.>