Offensive pokes using tera to defensively answer other offensive counts as using tera defensively imo. Its a two way street because there are an equal amount of tera uses offensively and defensively, regardless of what kind of poke is using tera
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Offensive uses of Tera:
- Gaining dual STAB on one of your types to brute-force through your normal checks (example: Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao)
- Gaining a third STAB on a strong coverage/priority move to sweep more effectively (example: Dragonite, Espathra)
- Running Tera Blast with a STAB type to remedy a shallow STAB movepool (example: Dragapult)
- Running Tera Blast with a non-STAB type to remedy a lack of coverage (example: Regieleki, yes I know it’s not out yet but everyone knows what will happen)
- Switching to a different type to cover your usual weaknesses (example: all of them)
- Uhhhhhhhhhhhh
you could also shed away a stealth rocks weakness (or resist rocks) use it to gain another check to an offensive poke to an opposing offensive poke, or resist a super strong attack.
all of which ive used extensively (almost more than offensive teras) in UU.
Obv UU different than OU but the fundemental idea of using tera like that should be similar
I hate the option to outright ban. Tera adds a lot of value to team building, team diversity, and plying with/around it. Sure sometimes you’ll get hit by a Tera type you weren’t expecting, but you could also say that about held items and wacky movesets. This argument sounds similar to: “I lost my win condition because there was no way to know you had a scarf! Scarf is uncompetitive. Ban.”, which ignores the fact that we play around these possibilities all the time.
In time, the meta will settle, terastalizing will be better understood, and which pokemon take which tera types will be much easier to predict. This will mitigate a lot of the challenges to playing with tera types, and allow the mechanic to shine.
In time, the meta will settle, terastalizing will be better understood, and which pokemon take which tera types will be much easier to predict. This will mitigate a lot of the challenges to playing with tera types, and allow the mechanic to shine.
I’ll answer this one, thank you.
I’ll cover the banning of Espa first. If Espa is the only Mon currently that is broken by Tera, why ever ban Tera for it? Looking back to Blaziken in gen 7 and ZTorn in Nat Dex last gen, along with Kart and Prot-Gren being significantly better, among other things. From this philosophy, Z-Moves were kept, and Blaziken and Torn were thrown out. (Blaziken was to be brought back later)
Now, looking to HOME, I really don’t think it’s going to be this explosion of Tera brokenness everyone seems to think it is. Let me explain by going Mon by Mon.
Articuno - Still bad even with Tera, wouldn’t be broken at all. May be good, but probably wont see too much high level play due to lack of flexibility.
Zapdos - Zapdos loves its typing, why would it ever want to get rid of it? I don’t see any situations outside of fringe cases.
Moltres - Probably will be pretty good in OU, but while it has more flexibility, it still lacks a bit.
Mew - Mew does Mew things. Nothing new here.
Mewtwo - Ubers lol
Typhlosion - No impact
Quagsire - Quagsire do what Quagsire do, except with the ability to resist grass sometimes now. Would personally rather use Skeledirge, but ig it’s still Quagsire.
Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza - Ubers lol
Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf - Probably won’t use Tera.
Dialga, Palkia, Giritina, Arceus - Ubers lol
Heatran - Everyone’s favorite Lava frog returns! Heatran may look very good with Tera, but really, what typing can you give it that’s better than just keeping it’s current one. Tran is good, but not broken.
Samurott - No change
Tornadus - Everyone’s favorite bird… dragon… thing? I don’t know what it is, other than it’s really good. Why? Regenerator is a good ability, and Torn-T would definitely appreciate being able to shift around its defensive typing. Good? Certainly. Broken? Nope.
Thundurus - Good ol’ Thundy-T, back to bring more rain. Probably not going to make too much of a splash, but for sure going to be better. Mostly as a water type for better Seaking vibes.
Landorus - If anyone tells you Lando-I will be balanced this generation with Nasty Plot and Sandsear Storm in its kit now, they’re trying to sell you something. Tera makes no difference in this mon’s fate. Lando-T might be nice with the type changing, but it just lost half its movepool. To be fair, it is Lando, but Lando loves its type to death, especially the ground part of it. It could run an ice resistant type, but I don’t see Lando-T being broken.
Meloetta - No change
Chesnaught - Another mon cursed with a bad typing, except it’s typing is somewhat decent (resists EdgeQuake which is cool). Will probably be quite decent, but not broken in the slightest.
Delphox - Get this thing away from me I never wanted to see it again (don’t ask why). Nasty Plot and Focus Miss are cool, and this thing doesn’t want it’s typing either, but Tera absolutely doesn’t break it.
Greninja - ProtMan is back, and won’t be using Tera lmao. It can already change it’s type. As for Battle Bond, if it didn’t get nerfed I’d say ban, but jury’s out for now. One use really hurts and makes it all-or-nothing, and it prefers the power of Specs, which really doesn’t synergize with Tera helping with coverage. Same checks, just they are a lot more shaky to Tera Water this time.
Diancie - No change
Hoopa - ohboiohboi, here we go. This thing DESPISES it’s typing, and is happy to get rid of it. In theory, it’s one of the most broken mons out there, but who knows, since Hoopa-U’s brokenness is all about theory.
Volcanion - Probably will do the same stuff it did in gen 8, might work well as a pure ground type. I don’t know, but probably not broken.
Decidueye - No change
Magearna - How do you make Mag even more ridiculous? Tera. That’s how. All things considered, Mag has the best typing in the game, but now it can change it to be even more broken than usual! Yay!
Rillaboom - Transfer absolutely gutted this thing, no change.
Cinderace - Hates the Libero nerf, but it can change types already, so no effect from Tera.
Inteleon - No change
Perrserker - No change lol
Zacian/Eternatus - Still Ubers
Zamazenta - Might be going to OU, but not sure about that quite yet.
Urshifu-S - Lost 70 bp on Wicked Blow, but got SD, Punching Glove, and a lack of faries. Nope nope nope nope nope
Urshifu-R - Got SD, Punching Glove, and Tera Electric. Tera Electric lets it beat flyings and waters that would otherwise beat it. Good? Certainly. Broken? I’m not sure yet.
Zarude - Trailblase and SD. Still no good ability tho. No changes.
Regieleki - Ice Tera Blast bottom text pls ban
Regidrago - Good into every slow fat team without a fairy. Aka bad still
Glastrier - No changes
Spectrier - Go back to Ubers lol
Calyrex - Base is still bad, other formes are still Ubers.
That should be all of the HOME transfers that I know of covered, and question should be answered. Tiering survey soon, so we shall see the answers. Hope Tera will stay untouched and well in OU.
Edit: I’m a bit worried about the suspect test, and whether the restriction option will be lumped with ban or no ban. Whichever it gets put with will probably win, so I hope to see it get put in its own in a 3 way suspect.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
And it works in UU because all the mons that experience the most significant offensive benefits are up in OU.
A very large majority of the pokes that are being looked at for a ban rn and pokes that will probably be banned once home comes out are pokes that would be broken with or without tera. The two exceptions are really just espathra and regieleki, both of whom are probably broken with hidden power
No tera wouldn't change the fact that roaring moon, iron bundle and flutter mane have absurd stats and annihilape has an absurd stab move.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Except they’re not the only two exceptions. Dragonite and Dragapult are fine without Tera but broken with it, and you’re playing a different meta if you think they’re broken without it.
I don't think either are broken with tera, at most they're just annoying and highly abuse cyclizar and screen support, which is probably the big thing putting them over the edge. normal dnite espeed is fun and all, but the fact it can get a free set up from a well positioned cyclizar and then another from multiscale is doing a lot more to make this guy broken than an extra stab boost.
it hates dondozo my friend dondozo
It really seems like with those two examples and eleki and esp, that it's a product of circumstance that tera made those four broken rather than tera being a broken mechanic. For Dragonite, its because stab extreme speed is broken, for Dragapult, its because it having decent ghost stab makes it broken (honestly Shadow Claw would make it broken) and esp and eleki having actual coverage makes them broken (again, hidden power would be enough to break both)
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Yes, and if ifs and buts were candies and nuts we’d all have a merry Christmas, but let’s stop theorymonning about Hidden Power this and Shadow Claw that and look at the facts. Tera is making at the absolute, premium, ultimate least three things plus one upcoming thing broken. So the question becomes: are you willing to sit through suspect tests for all four of those, in addition to this upcoming one, the inevitable Shed Tail/Cyclizar one, the equally inevitable Gholdengo one, and the even more inevitable Chi-Yu one? And possibly also Revival Blessing if it avoids a quickban, Annihilape, Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, and Grimmsnarl? Are you willing to have this metagame be in something resembling a playable state by the end of the year, or do you want to wait?
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Few things I disagree with, Regidrago being good into every slow fat team w/out a fairy is no longer true once you factor in tera. Specs tera steel tera blast will destroy fairies, and keeping dragon stab+dragons maw as ur ability means dragon energy is still destroying every non fairy. U also become a pure steel type with 200/50/50 bulk which is no joke. I think this mon will be far from bad once u allow it to actually break past fairies.
Glastrier will also get to change its shitty pure ice typing into smth better like pure fighting+CC or pure steel+heavy slam or hell I can see tera water/fairy being fine too. It will get to leverage its godsent stat distribution of 100/145/130/65/110/30 much more effectively with a different typing, but I'm sure it won't be as broken as others.
Volcanion under rain was already borderline impossible to switch into, throw in tera water into the mix and now it's even more disgusting. Think gastro is safe? Tera grass tera blast will catch you there too. There's honestly a solid case for this shit becoming crazy.
It's really funny that you're comparing tera blast+tera to pissweak moves like shadow claw and hp ice. Tera blast+tera ghost on a physical dragapult is a 80*2=160 base power move while shadow claw without tera is just 70*1.5=105. Likewise, tera blast+tera ice on regieleki is an 80*1.5=120 base power ice move while hidden power is just 60. Let's be real here, these are busted because tera is busted.
Espathra's in the same boat, it is laughable to think it would be broken with hidden power. Let me show you some calcs to show you the difference that tera makes:
+1 0 SpA Espathra Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 222-264 (88.4 - 105.1%) (tera fighting+tera blast)
+1 0 SpA Espathra Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 112-134 (44.6 - 53.3%) (no tera, just hidden power)
I've said it already, but espathra is MID without tera, and tera is the only factor pushing it over the edge.
a) quick bans exist. Eleki is probably obvious enough to warrant a quickban so that helps
b) if it's a problem with too many suspects, then banning tera just seems like a way to cut corners, especially when a majority of pokes are fine with it. Just do dual suspects, or start by banning the main enablers of broken shit like shed tail and gholdengo.
For eleki specifically, it's funny how you think that the BP of its ice coverage would matter. The only thing that matters is that it gets past its groumd type answers and with hp ice, it can get past two big ones in lando-t and garchomp. This would easily leave its answers severly limited and let it spam volt switch against the entire meta and definetly get it booted out
252 SpA Regieleki Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 182-216 (41.9 - 49.7%)
252 SpA Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 362-428 (83.4 - 98.6%)
252 SpA Regieleki Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 248-296 (69.4 - 82.9%)
252 SpA Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 504-592 (141.1 - 165.8%)
252 SpA Regieleki Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 264-312 (82.7 - 97.8%)
252 SpA Regieleki Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 528-624 (165.5 - 195.6%)
Why yes, I do think that the base power of its ice coverage matters, thank you for asking. Guessing wrong between volt switch/hp ice means you are forced out, but with tera blast ice, you don't even have to guess. Just outspeed and ohko, only worrying about yache/tera/av lol.
When you consider that eleki is balanced around not being able to do jack to ground types, as soon as it has the ability to do shit to grounds, it becomes a problem. Even if it's not a lot and needs support with hazards to wear them down enough to beat them, the fact it can would be enough to break it. The shit it can do when it doesnt face ground types is absurd and as soon as grounds aren't 100% safe against it, it's pretty easy to see it being broken.
We must be playing two different metagames then because it is far from unplayable. Smogon doesn't ban mechanics to nerf other Pokemon, that's just not proper reasoning and doesn't align with why bans even happen in the first place.
Also, half the mons you mentioned aren't even on council's radar to be scrutinized let alone suspected so I would cool it on the catastrophizing.
1. the meta is not unplayable
2. the solution to "there's too many things to suspect" is not to ban teralizing. That's an incredibly lazy fix espeically since a lot of the above mons (if they are broken btw) would still be broken with or without tera. Just satrt with gholdengo and cyclizar/shed tail, since those two exasterbate the power level by a lot and then go from there. SS OU at the start of crown tundra had a lot of broken mons to suspect (and had something almost equally controversial in boots) and it still ended up in a playable state without banning the afromentioned broken item, even tho said item arguably made one of the pokes (cinderace) broken.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
SS OU at the start of the generation had a broken mechanic that was especially breaking certain Pokémon. There were discussions about banning Excadrill, Gyarados, and even Ditto. But instead, we banned Dynamax because it was the common factor breaking all those mons, just as Tera is the common factor breaking Espathra, Annihilape, Dragapult and Dragonite. If we can’t at least agree that this is the case, there’s nothing more I can say to you because we’re living in two different dimensions.
dynamax and tera are not even remotely comparable lmfao. the level of difference in brokenness between the two is insane. dynamax would be broken even if we only allowed it on pu pokemon. we cannot say the same for tera.
It's also even questionable if dragonite is broken because of tera, or because of gholdenheo making is so easy to wear shit down with hazards, cyclizar giving it easy subs, or the fact that the pool of viable fairies is severely lowered. keep in mind dnite wasn't even on the recent sv tiering survey.
also, annihilape's breaking point is rage fist not resetting on switch out, not tera.
I wouldn't say far from unplayable...gabtaltar said:
and yes, technically it's "playable" but in regards to playable meaning balanced and competitive then no, not really.
It's pretty much a meme to ladder at this point.
Stall is invalidated by Ape
Offense can't handle Espa
Cylce makes HO insane
Gold makes Balance hazard stack unreal
Cheese-Yu has no switch ins bar dedicated special walls that, in sun, or specs dark pulse flinches, lose
Even if/when they all go, something else will take it's place, because Terra is broken.
For one, a lot of those mons aren't broken with Terra, that's literally what we're saying.gabtaltar said:
Furthermore, it's not about being lazy, it's about how incredibly stupid and tedious it's going to get when Home drops if we don't ban Terra.
Some mons are obviously broken and sure, we'll QB them.
However, there are times when a mon is on the fence and we must suspect them.
This will be the case with several mons, if not dozens..
You need a bit of foresight, and understanding of the game to imagine this.
If it helps, just imagine strong mons that terra into their own type.
Your previous post and the mons listed illustrate the lack of foresight
Just to list a few
You throw a choice band or specs on these guys, Terra into your own type, and wow look no safe switch ins lolgabtaltar said:
You bulk up with Cinder, Terra into fighting, HJK
It goes on and on.
These, and many more, will be "on the fence" mons that won't be obviously broken, but will deserve a suspect.
And the thing with that is, it starts to get unhealthy to continue to destabilize the meta.
Ppl will say "why didn't we suspect X before Y?!"
"X wasn't broken when Y was here"
What pushes these on the fence mons to deserve suspects will be Terra, the gimmick.
It's going to be a tedious, cumbersome, and pernicious endeavor.
And then it will be gen 10, and we would have had a dumpster fire meta for years..
Experienced players know this can't happen.
If a mon is busted, let it be the mon, and not the gimmick that pushes it over the edge.
having no safe switch-ins doesn't automatically constitute something as broken. Especially when you can use your own tera defensively to answer an offensive tera. When you consider that you can only tera once in battle, tera defensively to answer an offensive tera can be worth it to neutralize a tera offensive poke.
I really just think that the "unplayable" part of OU is the fault of pokes like gold and shed tail cyclizar enabling ho like nothing else and it's not fair to blame tera when these guys are around especially when a majority of the broken mons in this meta are not because of tera, rather gold and cyclizar enabling broken shit like nothing else.
Especially the dragonite example when you consider that on top of gold and cyclizar, there's also much less fairies.
Personally, I think that if tera is the problem, it will be much more obvious when home releases.
Urshifus, Enamorus, Mag, and Spectrier I expect to get banhammered very quickly regardless. (Before you ask both urshifus got swords dance, which now basically makes rapid strike broken, since it can now beat everything it wants to that it could not before without swords dance.)
Unfortunately, I think tera is just a bit too broken due to the fact that it makes numerous pokemon harder to deal with than they should be.
I hope action is taken before home drops, because stuff like Tera Ursaluna, Tera Sneasler, and tera Basculegion sound frightening to deal with, not to mention stuff like volcanion, hoopa unbound, and especially something like Torn-T with like tera water or tera electric sounds like nightmare fuel, especially with tera blast.
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