Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[Alternator]

Question: say I have an Ice type pokemon, and I tera it into another type. If I was to set Snow, will its defense still be boosted?

And vice versa. Non ice type into Ice type. Does it gain the defense boost?

Ice => Fire, no defense boost from Snow.

Fire => Ice, yes defense boost from Snow.

Once you've terastalized into a new type, you gain all the advantages and disadvantages of the new type, while losing the advantage and disadvantages of your old type. A former Fire type can be burned, a former Poison or Steel can be hit with Toxic, etc.

The lone exception is that you get to retain your old STAB boost.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Question: say I have an Ice type pokemon, and I tera it into another type. If I was to set Snow, will its defense still be boosted?

No.

And vice versa. Non ice type into Ice type. Does it gain the defense boost?

Yes.

I disagree with this view but I would just be repeating myself.

Yeah, it's alright, we got different views on that and hopefully, the debate was productive to the rest of the thread even if we don't change our views.

As an outsider looking in to this thread, arguments that say "it will keep the meta from being boring" or rewording it but ultimately says the same thing does not help the do not ban crowd. Whole point is to try and aim for balance. If you say this gimmick keeps things fresh I feel like its also slightly admitting that its not the most balanced mechanic in the world but hey, it keeps things exciting?

Similarly, all the "50/50s" arguments are also very weak because there are several factors that force players to make decisions throughout the entire game.

Also, most of the time, Tera doesn't even force true 50/50s to begin with.

 

[LoseToRU?]

mans went from "elo shaming is cringe" to "lmfao you suck" in goddamn record time

Lmfaoo you tried to dissect my game and make fun of me but ended up looking really dumb out here my boy.

You were wrong about literally every single thing you wrote.

I didn't say you sucked, only that you should learn to play.

Only someone who doesn't know how to play would embarrass themselves that much .

You said that psy terrain doesn't stop prio.
You said I should have clicked Ice Spinner- objectively the worst play I could have made.
The list goes on lol- it's a long list.

I never ELO shamed you, as you did me, cuz it is cringe.
-I simply refuted every single point you made.

You never addressed the core argument, and in this reply you fail to address how wrong you were on, again, every single thing.

Mans really thought he did something lmfao. L

 

[TheCounterTeamer]

I made quite a lengthy post about why tera should be banned or tiered, I've completely changed my mind. I find tera to paradoxically be the healthiest mechanic ever added to the game. Heres why.

1) Matchup: Tera allows teams to plug up holes they otherwise wouldn't be able to. Each tera on your team matters, and the sooner I learned the value in that, the sooner I learned how far you can optimize your team builder. I have never felt like I could feasibly cover every threat in the game as much as I do now. I feel team building is exponentially rewarded with tera. I think it allows you to play through both mismatch and hax far better than before.

2) Swings: I originally believed a tera's unpredictability lead to unsalvageable swings in the game. I originally posted on how I lost to a tera steel annihilape. I posted how it was possible I had misplayed, but now I understand how bad of a misplay it was. I originally believed a set up mon being able to change its type to anything was too powerful, but I have come to realize that the pool of viable set up mons and the pool of reasonable tera's for those mons is actually manageable in the team builder, especially when considering your own tera options. Once I had committed more thought to my plays and to my team building, I realized that losing to the current pool of set up mon's tera is on the player.

Team building is the MOST rewarding its ever been IMO.

3) Thought provoking gameplay: This is the most important aspect of why I love tera. The games feel WAY less brain dead and I genuinely have not felt like I deserve to lose/win games as much as I do with tera. The routes to victory are way less one dimensional as they have been in the past, as are the routes to defeat. I love the extra layer of thought the game now provides.

4) 'hard tera' mons aren't that good. Acro roaring moon, Esped dnite [less so], espathra, and ape are all mons that heavily rely on tera. While not always predictable (dnite does run the fire tera, espathra goes fighting and fairy, etc), these mons lose a LOT of their strength when they do not tera. Similarly to acro roaring moon has died out, I expect similar fates for these hard tera mons. The player loses a lot of team versatility in trying to maintain a tera to a specific mon. I do believe there is potential for specific tera+set up mon combinations to be inherently broken, but at the moment I do not believe that to be the case, and I don't see that as a reason to ban the mechanic.

Tera's versatility, IMO, paradoxically balances the game. No action on tera should be taken.

Appreciating this post rn since it sums up my views on Tera exactly. I’m somewhat saddened by the previous discussion but we shall see what the survey brings. Tera is really unfortunate as it came in a generation after Dynamax, as if it came right after Z-moves this conversation would likely not be happening right now. After that wonderful note, I’ve made my point pretty clear (see my previous posts), and am probably not going to post here for a while at least. Let’s hope this mechanic is judged off of competitiveness, not personal preference.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You said I should have clicked Ice Spinner- objectively the worst play I could have made.

Just out of curiosity because I've said the same thing.

Why would a combination of Spinner + Priority be the worst play if it would guarantee a KO even on a neutral hit if Pult DD'd?

 

[LoseToRU?]

Just out of curiosity because I've said the same thing.

Why would a combination of Spinner + Priority be the worst play if it would guarantee a KO even on a neutral hit if Pult DD'd?

I was actually going to respond to you about another post of yours lol
As for this, you'll have to go over previous posts, but essentially those are two separate points the kid was 100% incorrect on.
Anyway.

So this

Similarly, all the "50/50s" arguments are also very weak because there are several factors that force players to make decisions throughout the entire game.

Also, most of the time, Tera doesn't even force true 50/50s to begin with.

It doesn't really matter what happens in a game to get to a true 50/50, the fact that it happens at all is the issue- regardless if it could have been avoided by different plays.

When end games come down to a Sucker Punch 50/50, then yes maybe that could have been avoided, but it still means that the exchange will happen.
It's also fairly rare for everything in a battle to come down to this scenario, but regardless, it does sometimes.
Sometimes.
With Terra, this exchange happens often.
It doesn't really matter if it's end game or turn 1- you WILL most likely, at some point in the battle, have to guess if you opp is going to Terra or not.

I don't have much time right now for a better response.

 

[NoSeLlama]

Just for transparency's sake I'll say that my preference is to keep tera as it is with no restrictions. I won't argue for this position since I feel like I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said in this thread already regarding that conversation. The reason I'm writing this though is to push back against this notion present both in the pro-tera and anti-tera side, that if we do a complex ban on tera we might aswell allow Kyogre in RU only with physical non-water type moves at level 74 with 4ivs in each stat always holding Sticky Barb and only on cloudy Wednesdays.

I don't want to be that guy that somehow related this to MLK, but at the end of the day rules and laws are just arbitrary shit that we made up to suit our purposes, whether those are to live with eachother peacefully or to make the Pikachu game competitive. Principles are important ofc and the convention of avoiding complex bans has worked well enough for the last 8 generations. The thing is that I think we're reaching a point where holding on to this is getting in the way of having an ideal metagame which should be in my opinion the most important goal of Smogon, and if old principles are getting in the way of this we shouldn't be afraid to change them.

With "ideal metagame" though I mean a metagame that is both competitive and appealing to the wider Pokemon community. Ofc competitiveness should always be the main priority but it's very misguided to think that Smogon doesn't care at all about making their metas appealing, especially since one of the main justifications for the disdain against complex bans is that they can be very confusing for new players that want to get into the game, and something equally or even more off putting to many Pokemon players is to ban the generation's main mechanic.

With this I don't mean that we should preserve tera if it's completely getting in the way of having a competitive meta (like Dynamax), some people in this thread have argued very eloquently that no matter how much you restrict tera it will always be broken, and even though I don't agree with this position I think these arguements are very productive. There's also merit in the idea that some of the restrictions proposed are overly convoluted and it'd be better if we could avoid those. But what I think is not productive at all is refusing to consider any of the restrictions just because this slippery slope nonsense, having a complex ban on tera doesn't mean we'll start allowing level 50 Arceus in ZU because we can draw the line wherever we want.

Trying to preserve tera in someway is a very good move on the council's end and I think it will bring a lot of new players, and if we decide to ban it completely, restrict it or leave it untouched I think it should be only on the grounds of having the most competitive and appealing meta we can, and not because we're dogmatically holding on to an outdated principle.

And about complex bans being very confusing for new players, I think we could deal with this easily by having an instructional video explaining Smogon's rules on Showdown's main page. This would be very helpful even if we decide to not have any complex bans since even now Smogon rules can be confusing for younger Pokemon players (I say this because when I was 13 it took me a while to grasp what this was all about lol)

sorry for any shitty grammar, english is not my first language, and also if you disagree feel free to roast me but please do it nicely

 

[Skyuchi]

I was actually going to respond to you about another post of yours lol
As for this, you'll have to go over previous posts, but essentially those are two separate points the kid was 100% incorrect on.
Anyway.

So this


It doesn't really matter what happens in a game to get to a true 50/50, the fact that it happens at all is the issue- regardless if it could have been avoided by different plays.

When end games come down to a Sucker Punch 50/50, then yes maybe that could have been avoided, but it still means that the exchange will happen.
It's also fairly rare for everything in a battle to come down to this scenario, but regardless, it does sometimes.
Sometimes.
With Terra, this exchange happens often.
It doesn't really matter if it's end game or turn 1- you WILL most likely, at some point in the battle, have to guess if you opp is going to Terra or not.

I don't have much time right now for a better response.

It doesn't matter if my bad play forces a Tera-based 50/50, just that Tera forced a 50/50?
That's not a convincing argument. Hey guys I lost because I banked entirely on a Focus Blast miss and it didn't. Can we ban Focus Blast?

 

[Otonashi971]

I see a lot of claims about competitiveness or the lack thereof, and wanted to say that "competitiveness" is pretty easily quantifiable by looking at how the difference in rating affects the outcome of the match. Like just graph out win probability against delta elo for a given time period (e.g. for a month after the meta settles). Then you can compare that to the same period in previous gens and definitively say whether Tera is more or less "competitive", rather than making unsubstantiated claims or assumptions either way. I don't know if that data is available but seeing as usage stats exist all the way back to 2014, surely match data including at least elo and the winner was preserved as well?

(Also I'm totally not qualified to talk about anything else since I don't actually play, I'm just enjoying the back and forth here)

 

[Skyuchi]

I see a lot of claims about competitiveness or the lack thereof, and wanted to say that "competitiveness" is pretty easily quantifiable by looking at how the difference in rating affects the outcome of the match. Like just graph out win probability against delta elo for a given time period (e.g. for a month after the meta settles). Then you can compare that to the same period in previous gens and definitively say whether Tera is more or less "competitive", rather than making unsubstantiated claims or assumptions either way. I don't know if that data is available but seeing as usage stats exist all the way back to 2014, surely match data including at least elo and the winner was preserved as well?

(Also I'm totally not qualified to talk about anything else since I don't actually play, I'm just enjoying the back and forth here)

You would have to set up a second ladder that's identical to this one, but with tera banned. Each metagame is so different that one gen compared to another does not work, and metas change so often that this one won't be settled for a long time, even if nothing were ever banned - hell, Gen 8 still hasn't settled.
I would be in favor of setting up a second ladder for suspect purposes and I think everyone in general would be. I think the more pressing issue right now is banning Chi-Yu because it literally has no reliable counter.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Same reason a bunch of mons got banned because of Z-Move-related reasons but not Z-Moves themselves.

Which ones?

2 at most?

Most of gen 7 bans consist of megas which can't hold z-crystals, blaziken who was banned 3 gens in a row regardless, lando-i same reason banned for 4 gens in a row just too 'OP', 2 ultra beast with only 1 of them being a z-crystal user, and aegislash who was banned for centralizing the tier.

Out of all the ubers, only naganadel specifically was banned for z-crystals and that's debatable seeing how it was still broken in gen 8. Aegislash is the only one you can argue might've been pushed by ghostium-Z but it was mostly how it still centralized the tier just like gen 6.

The claim Z-moves got anything banned needs some serious citation around here.

We're already looking at a lot of mons that would've been quick banned or suspected by now if it wasn't for the debate of whether or not tera stays and finch trying to give us opportunity to voice opinions and vote rather than council ban half of OU straight away. This is very comparable to dynamax where it would've contributed to targetting half the tier because of it.

So you're telling me that there is a plan to deal with Espathra at +2 SpA/SpD/Spe? That mon has STAB Stored Power and Dazzling Gleam to smoke Dark-types trying to counter it. All it needs to do when something that tries to kill it with Sucker Punch switches in is click Sub.

That shit is broken WITHOUT Tera.

Espathra is pushed very over the edge by it. Swapping from psychic type means you can't blanket check or counter it with 1 mon (chi-yu and kinggambit would be solid counters without tera-fighting.)


+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 100-118 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 74-88 (29.4 - 35%) -- 15.2% chance to 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 99-117 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Add tera fighting into the mix:

0 SpA Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 400-472 (99 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

with 0 setup, can KO kingambit. Guaranteed with rocks.

And if we take the above calcs and apply fairy STAB to them:

+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 111-132 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 148-175 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 150-177 (37.1 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 0 SpA Espathra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO

Now it goes from needing 3 calm minds to cleanly get a 2HKO, to only 2. idk what you're doing if it gets 3 turns of calm mind, it only gets 1 free from switching into it, 1 from breaking the sub, and it shouldn't be greeding for the 3rd cause it gets 2HKO'd at that point, not to mention removal of psychic removes that ability to 2HKO it.

Chi-yu/kingambit's presence in the tier alone holds it back from what its currently doing, much like how heatran held back volcarona. You just slap it on the team, and now espathra is a BL tier mon against your team, currently you need multiple checks because it runs through your team if you guess the wrong typing (usually its fairy but ig fighting could work too), or if you overprepare for its alt typing it might not tera at all and run down teams.

 

[zantaRay]

I think my favourite part of this thread is seeing the same poster say that tera creates interesting and creative team building, and then in another post saying that tera is fine because tera is becoming predictable and readable at team preview, without blinking. It's such obvious cognitive dissonance and it keeps happening.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think my favourite part of this thread is seeing the same poster say that tera creates interesting and creative team building, and then in another post saying that tera is fine because tera is becoming predictable and readable at team preview, without blinking. It's such obvious cognitive dissonance and it keeps happening.

Wait, since when these are opposites?

It doesn't matter if my bad play forces a Tera-based 50/50, just that Tera forced a 50/50?
That's not a convincing argument. Hey guys I lost because I banked entirely on a Focus Blast miss and it didn't. Can we ban Focus Blast?

No. That's a 70/30, skill issue.

Dynamic Punch is on the radar tho.

 

[Skyuchi]

Wait, since when these are opposites?


No. That's a 70/30, skill issue.

Dynamic Punch is on the radar tho.

It is actually funny to think that DPP has both No Guard Machamp and Jirachi and neither of those has been banned.
I know people have talked for ages about banning Jirachi and I kinda agree based purely on the fact I hate playing against it, but it's almost like part of Pokemon is managing your odds and people find ways around it.

 

[LoseToRU?]

It doesn't matter if my bad play forces a Tera-based 50/50, just that Tera forced a 50/50?
That's not a convincing argument. Hey guys I lost because I banked entirely on a Focus Blast miss and it didn't. Can we ban Focus Blast?

Please don't put words in my mouth lol.

Focus more on reading comprehension for this next sentence:
"It doesn't really matter if it's end game or turn 1- you WILL most likely, at some point in the battle, have to guess if you opp is going to Terra or not."

I'm not sure how I can simplify this argument further..

The longer the Terra meta goes on, and the more players can make educated guesses, it actually makes the problem worse.

When Terra gets boiled down and we can safely assume Dragonite will Terra Normal, all that does is force a player from choosing either a great attack or a terrible one. Do you really want to risk hitting a Flying with a Fighting move? Can you afford not to? You opponent knows you know, so here we go: a forced 50/50

You can argue that a player "got themselves into this situation by being bad" (?) or whatever the terrible argument is, but even, or especially, at the highest level of gameplay, players WILL find themselves in this situation often- regardless of skill or how it got to that point in the battle.

You could argue that if a battle comes down to a Sucker Punch 50/50 then the player should have done better to avoid the situation, but with Terra there is no avoiding it.
-
Aegislash got banned in both gen 6 and 7, and the biggest factor for the ban was the 50/50's it forced.
Feel free to read through the threads:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ou-suspect-testing-round-5-ghost-of-perdition.3511596/

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ng-ghosts-aegislash-remains-in-ubers.3536089/

All you need to do is ctrl+F and search for "50"

Aegislash forced 50/50's every game

and more often than not, so does Terra.

The more time goes on, the more my argument gets solidified.
You will see high level tournaments come down to 50/50 scenarios.
It'll be funny for you to tell these players that it's their fault lol.

 

[zantaRay]

It is actually funny to think that DPP has both No Guard Machamp and Jirachi and neither of those has been banned.
I know people have talked for ages about banning Jirachi and I kinda agree based purely on the fact I hate playing against it, but it's almost like part of Pokemon is managing your odds and people find ways around it.

And machamp is maybe the hardest Pokemon in DPP to switch into. A full health machamp generally requires you to sac something, though you can sometimes work around it with something like bulky rotom, or certain Pokemon with a lum berry. but even then if it subs on the switch you're probably sacking or at least losing a huge chunk off what you put in. But it's not a problem because it's slow. Jirachi also has weaknesses, but mostly in 4mss. Jirachi, despite this, is still regularly debated as bannable.

Even ignoring all that, it doesn't change that tera introduces way more of these unavoidable 50/50 scenarios, and is in no way comparable to some Pokemon having randomness in their kits.

 

[Skyuchi]

Please don't put words in my mouth lol.

Focus more on reading comprehension for this next sentence:
"It doesn't really matter if it's end game or turn 1- you WILL most likely, at some point in the battle, have to guess if you opp is going to Terra or not."

I'm not sure how I can simplify this argument further..

The longer the Terra meta goes on, and the more players can make educated guesses, it actually makes the problem worse.

When Terra gets boiled down and we can safely assume Dragonite will Terra Normal, all that does is force a player from choosing either a great attack or a terrible one. Do you really want to risk hitting a Flying with a Fighting move? Can you afford not to? You opponent knows you know, so here we go: a forced 50/50

You can argue that a player "got themselves into this situation by being bad" (?) or whatever the terrible argument is, but even, or especially, at the highest level of gameplay, players WILL find themselves in this situation often- regardless of skill or how it got to that point in the battle.

You could argue that if a battle comes down to a Sucker Punch 50/50 then the player should have done better to avoid the situation, but with Terra there is no avoiding it.
-
Aegislash got banned in both gen 6 and 7, and the biggest factor for the ban was the 50/50's it forced.
Feel free to read through the threads:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ou-suspect-testing-round-5-ghost-of-perdition.3511596/

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ng-ghosts-aegislash-remains-in-ubers.3536089/

All you need to do is ctrl+F and search for "50"

Aegislash forced 50/50's every game

and more often than not, so does Terra.

The more time goes on, the more my argument gets solidified.
You will see high level tournaments come down to 50/50 scenarios.
It'll be funny for you to tell these players that it's their fault lol.

Aegislash and Tera can not be compared. For starters, Aegislash actually *does* force a 50/50, has a disgustingly powerful typing and set of resistances, and effectively has a higher base stat total than anything but Arceus and Mega Mewtwo. Based on its stats alone, it had no business being in OU, even if King's Shield didn't drop Attack.
Addressing Dragonite though, because I would agree it is the strongest setup sweeper at this time - the thing is absolutely the furthest thing from a 50/50. If your team is so weak that allowing a Dragonite to get a single DD means that you immediately lose the game, you simply have a bad team and need to go back into the teambuilder. There is no excusing that. The same has been true for offensive threats of every single generation.
Once Multiscale has been popped, regardless of whether or not it was hit with an attack that was resisted, it is incredibly easy for an offensive team to KO it in return - and this is possible without even using tera yourself. Without even needing to pop multiscale, a defensive team can simply switch in to it and force it out.
Any loss to Dragonite is either because you deserved to lose, or because your checks to it have been chipped down to the point where they were no longer able to stop it - again, wearing down checks to your own sweeper's counters being basically Pokemon 101.

Let's look at some of the things able to stop Dragonite. A defensive team can use any Unaware mon, notably Dondozo (does not need to tera to hard wall + threaten a Curse sweep in return) or Skeledirge (does need to tera, usually to Fairy, again can threaten to sweep in return). A defensive team can also just switch in and whirlwind it away, as is the case with Ting-Lu.
An offensive team can pack something capable of withstanding a single hit from Dragonite after popping Multiscale and easily threaten an OHKO. Examples are Iron Hands (withstands a +1 EQ with ease, can be EV'd/tera'd to either take a +2 or just be immune) or Iron Valiant (again, takes +1 ES or EQ, can tera Ghost to be immune to it).
The same can be said for any offensive threat, really. Priority shuts down Espartha and it can be whirlwinded out, any Unaware mon or some other bulky offensive threats can take out the Volcarona family.

But even going back to your 50/50 comment, can you provide examples of high level games in which tera truly does provide a 50/50? I'm in the high ladder myself and really haven't seen it. The example you posted didn't showcase it either.

 

[zantaRay]

An offensive team can pack something capable of withstanding a single hit from Dragonite after popping Multiscale and easily threaten an OHKO. Examples are Iron Hands (withstands a +1 EQ with ease, can be EV'd/tera'd to either take a +2 or just be immune) or Iron Valiant (again, takes +1 ES or EQ, can tera Ghost to be immune to it).

Because it's not like a common play pattern with Dragonite is it setting up to +2 or 3 due to getting passed a sub which doesn't break immediately and then being able to tera to dodge a super effective hit. Dragonite is so threatening because shed tail + tera nearly guarantees +2 for free. No disagreement that there's plenty of incredibly passive answers to Dragonite that let another threat in for free.

 

[Skyuchi]

Because it's not like a common play pattern with Dragonite is it setting up to +2 or 3 due to getting passed a sub which doesn't break immediately and then being able to tera to dodge a super effective hit. Dragonite is so threatening because shed tail + tera nearly guarantees +2 for free. No disagreement that there's plenty of incredibly passive answers to Dragonite that let another threat in for free.

Any defensive team will be able to deal with Dragonite no matter how many dragon dances it pulls off, and any offensive team should be more than capable of simply either preventing Cyclizar from Shed Tailing itself, or hit the sub as Dragonite comes out and prevent it from getting to that +2 or +3. I really don't think that's a compelling argument at all.
Even then, it sounds like your gripe is with Shed Tail, and not tera.

 

[zantaRay]

Any defensive team will be able to deal with Dragonite no matter how many dragon dances it pulls off, and any offensive team should be more than capable of simply either preventing Cyclizar from Shed Tailing itself, or hit the sub as Dragonite comes out and prevent it from getting to that +2 or +3. I really don't think that's a compelling argument at all.
Even then, it sounds like your gripe is with Shed Tail, and not tera.

lol. Just stop the cyclizar shed tailing on something that struggles to break a sub on Dragonite. That's so easy must be why it's got such high usage. And they couldn't possibly then give the sub to something else which beats what you have in currently. Yes shed tail is a big problem right now, but tera is an issue too. Its almost like both of those things could be an issue at the same time. And yes multiple defensive options beat Dragonite, but as I said, they're generally passive and let in other threats. Which yeah they're great answers if you just ignore that.

Edit: also maybe don't claim to be high ladder when you're sub 1600. I normally wouldn't look up ratings but given you're talking about high ladder I was curious what you thought that was.

 

[Skyuchi]

lol. Just stop the cyclizar shed tailing on something that struggles to break a sub on Dragonite. That's so easy must be why it's got such high usage. And they couldn't possibly then give the sub to something else which beats what you have in currently. Yes shed tail is a big problem right now, but tera is an issue too. Its almost like both of those things could be an issue at the same time. And yes multiple defensive options beat Dragonite, but as I said, they're generally passive and let in other threats. Which yeah they're great answers if you just ignore that.

Iron Valiant, Iron Hands, Dondozo, and Skeledirge are certainly not generally passive.
And yes, you can actually stop Cyclizar Shed Tail. We're seeing more and more things run priority moves that can get it below 50% since its defenses are pretty miserable, as well as leads that simply outspeed all but the scarfed versions. We're also seeing more sound based moves that are capable of hitting through sub. Cyclizar coming in mid-game is certainly harder to stop, but again some offensive team really should be able to do it and a defensive team won't care if you do. Cyclizar's substitutes are really not at all impressive with its base 70 speed.
Although really and again those are Shed Tail issues, not Tera. We're slowly seeing the meta adapt to Shed Tail and I'm not sure whether that's truly banworthy or not as of yet. Arguing that the combination of Shed Tail and Tera is OP is not the justification for Tera being banned.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Aegislash and Tera can not be compared. For starters, Aegislash actually *does* force a 50/50, has a disgustingly powerful typing and set of resistances, and effectively has a higher base stat total than anything but Arceus and Mega Mewtwo. Based on its stats alone, it had no business being in OU, even if King's Shield didn't drop Attack.
Addressing Dragonite though, because I would agree it is the strongest setup sweeper at this time - the thing is absolutely the furthest thing from a 50/50. If your team is so weak that allowing a Dragonite to get a single DD means that you immediately lose the game, you simply have a bad team and need to go back into the teambuilder. There is no excusing that. The same has been true for offensive threats of every single generation.
Once Multiscale has been popped, regardless of whether or not it was hit with an attack that was resisted, it is incredibly easy for an offensive team to KO it in return - and this is possible without even using tera yourself. Without even needing to pop multiscale, a defensive team can simply switch in to it and force it out.
Any loss to Dragonite is either because you deserved to lose, or because your checks to it have been chipped down to the point where they were no longer able to stop it - again, wearing down checks to your own sweeper's counters being basically Pokemon 101.

Let's look at some of the things able to stop Dragonite. A defensive team can use any Unaware mon, notably Dondozo (does not need to tera to hard wall + threaten a Curse sweep in return) or Skeledirge (does need to tera, usually to Fairy, again can threaten to sweep in return). A defensive team can also just switch in and whirlwind it away, as is the case with Ting-Lu.
An offensive team can pack something capable of withstanding a single hit from Dragonite after popping Multiscale and easily threaten an OHKO. Examples are Iron Hands (withstands a +1 EQ with ease, can be EV'd/tera'd to either take a +2 or just be immune) or Iron Valiant (again, takes +1 ES or EQ, can tera Ghost to be immune to it).
The same can be said for any offensive threat, really. Priority shuts down Espartha and it can be whirlwinded out, any Unaware mon or some other bulky offensive threats can take out the Volcarona family.

But even going back to your 50/50 comment, can you provide examples of high level games in which tera truly does provide a 50/50? I'm in the high ladder myself and really haven't seen it. The example you posted didn't showcase it either.

You continue to focus on random things and fail to adhere to the point...

Aegi, for how good it was, was pushed out of OU due to King Shield 50/50's.... that was the greatest argument for banning the mon.. twice.

I also just used the Dragonite scenario as an example..

I gave a scenario where a mon could terra and you fail to hit it SE, or it doesn't terra and you do- and vice versa.

But even going back to your 50/50 comment, can you provide examples of high level games in which tera truly does provide a 50/50? I'm in the high ladder myself and really haven't seen it. The example you posted didn't showcase it either.

That was the truest example of a 50/50 you can get lol...
I either click X move or Y move
Mon dies to X- lives Y
If mon Terra it lives X and dies to Y

In all honesty, you either just don't know how to spot a 50/50, or I think you're lying.
Everyone who has been laddering in this meta comes across a scenario where they have to guess if a mon is going to terra or not..
Please keep you arguments in good faith, it's a bad look to needlessly lie.

If you want to argue that these 50/50's aren't that big of a deal
Or that we should just get used to them
Then that's fine..

But to say Terra doesn't force scenarios where if you guess wrong you lose is just disingenuous.

 

[zantaRay]

Iron Valiant, Iron Hands, Dondozo, and Skeledirge are certainly not generally passive.
And yes, you can actually stop Cyclizar Shed Tail. We're seeing more and more things run priority moves that can get it below 50% since its defenses are pretty miserable, as well as leads that simply outspeed all but the scarfed versions. We're also seeing more sound based moves that are capable of hitting through sub. Cyclizar coming in mid-game is certainly harder to stop, but again some offensive team really should be able to do it and a defensive team won't care if you do. Cyclizar's substitutes are really not at all impressive with its base 70 speed.
Although really and again those are Shed Tail issues, not Tera. We're slowly seeing the meta adapt to Shed Tail and I'm not sure whether that's truly banworthy or not as of yet. Arguing that the combination of Shed Tail and Tera is OP is not the justification for Tera being banned.

Explain to me what iron valiant or iron hands is doing to a +1 Dragonite behind a sub? We're talking about on defensive teams here, so you likely weren't able to break it on the switch. Dondozo and skeliderge are absolutely passive. They can make progress slowly but they're absolutely passive.

Tbh if you don't think shed tail is bannable then I don't think your opinion on tera, a far more complex issue, is remotely worth anything. Shed tail on cyclizar is so obviously overpowered it's comical.

 

[Skyuchi]

You continue to focus on random things and fail to adhere to the point...

Aegi, for how good it was, was pushed out of OU due to King Shield 50/50's.... that was the greatest argument for banning the mon.. twice.

I also just used the Dragonite scenario as an example..

I gave a scenario where a mon could terra and you fail to hit it SE, or it doesn't terra and you do- and vice versa.



That was the truest example of a 50/50 you can get lol...
I either click X move or Y move
Mon dies to X- lives Y
If mon Terra it lives X and dies to Y

In all honesty, you either just don't know how to spot a 50/50, or I think you're lying.
Everyone who has been laddering in this meta comes across a scenario where they have to guess if a mon is going to terra or not..
Please keep you arguments in good faith, it's a bad look to needlessly lie.

If you want to argue that these 50/50's aren't that big of a deal
Or that we should just get used to them
Then that's fine..

But to say Terra doesn't force scenarios where if you guess wrong you lose is just disingenuous.

I would like for you to show a 50/50 that actually decides the game as I have yet to see Tera create any more than low accuracy or status moves already do. I don't care if there's some 50/50 that barely impacts anything because that happens all the time. The burden of proof is on you.

Explain to me what iron valiant or iron hands is doing to a +1 Dragonite behind a sub? We're talking about on defensive teams here, so you likely weren't able to break it on the switch. Dondozo and skeliderge are absolutely passive. They can make progress slowly but they're absolutely passive.

Tbh if you don't think shed tail is bannable then I don't think your opinion on tera, a far more complex issue, is remotely worth anything. Shed tail on cyclizar is so obviously overpowered it's comical.

Dondozo and Skeledirge both run boosting moves which leave them capable of doing insane damage. I don't think you have ever actually seen what it is they do. Do you think Gen 2 Curselax is passive as well?
And if we're talking defensive teams, as I've stated I think twice now? Unaware does not care whatsoever about +1 Dnite. Iron Hands and Iron Valiant are examples of what OFFENSIVE teams can do to stop it. You don't rely on either of those to stop a sweeper on a defensive team unless your team is so miserably bad you deserve to lose anyway.

 

[turd2]

Explain to me what iron valiant or iron hands is doing to a +1 Dragonite behind a sub? We're talking about on defensive teams here, so you likely weren't able to break it on the switch. Dondozo and skeliderge are absolutely passive. They can make progress slowly but they're absolutely passive.

Dondozo and Skeledirge will 6-0 you if you leave Dragonite in on them... hardly passive lol