Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

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A couple people responded to my post saying I didn’t want Tera preview.
the reason is very simple. I think it’s more fun when you don’t know what Tera types could come out. Surprise factor is fun. I’m not going to defend my position any more than that. I don’t really care if it’s not 100% balanced. Tera is fun and I want it to stay fully unrestricted.

edit:
Should clarify I posted my original message in meta discussion but was told it would fit better here
 
I don’t really care if it’s not 100% balanced. Tera is fun and I want it to stay fully unrestricted.
Nothing about this is a competitively minded take though. People here want a balanced meta game and are trying to come up with ways to make the mechanic more reasonable without resorting to overly specific solutions that can't be replicated cart. So no offense, but this comment really isn't contributing to the discussion. "Fun" in the first place is subjective.
 
The difference is there are an extremely large number of pokemon banworthy with baton pass (and baton pass is less broken and more uncompetitive) while Tera Blast, with way more users than Baton Pass, only broke two pokemon... of the hundreds.
That's not exactly right. Although Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra are obviously egregious Tera Blast users, part of what puts the move into question isn't what it does to specific Pokémon, it's more about the fact that it allows every single Pokémon to participate in matchup fish luring and flipping momentum that way, and that any Pokémon can do this at any point. It's more about the dynamic it introduces to the metagame than what it makes certain particular Pokémon do
A couple people responded to my post saying I didn’t want Tera preview.
the reason is very simple. I think it’s more fun when you don’t know what Tera types could come out. Surprise factor is fun. I’m not going to defend my position any more than that. I don’t really care if it’s not 100% balanced. Tera is fun and I want it to stay fully unrestricted.
Play Freedom Cup if you don't care about balance, that's not what OU is about
 

658Greninja

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I'm going to put the fact that things like Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast exist and these switch-ins are an easy predict, especially since most teams only have 1, maybe 2 of these mons, but I love calcing to show how stupid Tera is sometimes lol

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 159-188 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 166-196 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 158-187 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 56% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 176-208 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You forgot someone

IMG_4773.png

Besides, there are more egregious calcs with Tera. Like….

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dragon Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 382-451 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dragon Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 351-413 (90.9 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Dragon Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 439-517 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 116 SpD Garganacl: 340-402 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 368-434 (92 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 305-359 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Razor Shell vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 288-340 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasler: 260-307 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (everything about this is wrong)

244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss in Sun: 207-244 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

I think a possible solution would be to ban double STAB with Tera. It would not only make the prediction game easier, but also makes checking certain mons easier since you aren’t getting 2HKOd by double STAB moves.
 
Nothing about this is a competitively minded take though. People here want a balanced meta game and are trying to come up with ways to make the mechanic more reasonable without resorting to overly specific solutions that can't be replicated cart. So no offense, but this comment really isn't contributing to the discussion. "Fun" in the first place is subjective.
Fair. My original post was replying to “literally zero people don’t want preview” and I don’t want preview. That’s why I posted
 
Fair. My original post was replying to “literally zero people don’t want preview” and I don’t want preview. That’s why I posted
Would you stop playing if it were implemented? Do you genuinely believe it will lower your enjoyment of the tier? Do you believe it will make it less competitve?
 
Would you stop playing if it were implemented? Do you genuinely believe it will lower your enjoyment of the tier? Do you believe it will make it less competitve?
I wouldn’t stop playing. Yes I believe it would lower my enjoyment. I don’t see it having a huge effect on how competitive OU is. You can still choose to Tera or not. It doesn’t change much about the strongest Tera Pokémon, as I can see it anyway.
I just don’t think it would be as fun, and I also don’t think it would help as much as people think.
Tera is never getting full banned. People can rage all they want, never gonna happen. Making a half ass compromise won’t solve anything in my humble opinion.
This all started with a simple rejection of the assumption that EVERYONE wants preview.
 

FishSucksAtPKMN

Banned deucer.
I saw earlier some post talking about gauging the opinions of lower tier players through their own tera suspect test. Which seems like a cool idea until you think that it would affect OU policy, which it shouldn't. However, I still feel that banning tera solely because of OU would cause a serious ripple effect that would be unhealthy for the lower tiers anyways. So I propose this solution.

Just dont let the tera ban apply to lower tiers unless they vote to ban it themselves.

That way in case there is another Tera suspect, we can have a fair and balanced vote without the swarm of lower tier players getting reqs so Tera isnt banned down there, as what happened during the first Tera suspect.
 

Finchinator

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Just dont let the tera ban apply to lower tiers unless they vote to ban it themselves
Not that I think Tera will get banned, but we are not making an exception to tiering transitivity for the sake of this or anything else. It would defeat a core part of the purpose of tiering. And OU tiering is done without regard regard for lower tiers. Same goes for UU to RU and so on.
 
Ok let's unban baton pass then, Flareon can't do anything unhealthy with it, not broken on every user, not a broken move.
except what happens when another baton passer gives that flareon a ton of stat boosts, it runs rampant with guts, and then passes the boosts to a third thing before it has the chance to die from toxic? the true brokenness of baton pass wasn't its use individually, but its use in chains. very few teams would have just one baton passer, they'd have 2 or 3, sometimes more, to stack up stat boosts. completely different issue from "the move breaks the mons that run it" because the mon that ended up on the end of a bp chain wouldn't even have the move, it would just have a shit ton of boosts.
Last Respects on Basculin-H was never tested or voted on in OU.
basculin-h can just go tera ghost and it's the same fucking thing as the other two. last respects is manifestly both broken and uncompetitive and the only reason it dodged a ban in the first place was because nothing else got it.
Are Gems broken on Spinda?
bad example, gems shouldn't have been banned because of this exact reason. considering how close the vote was, a substantial portion of qualified bw ou players agree with me
Tiering policy, especially with brand new mechanics and moves tied to them, doesn't always address the needs of the metagame, which is why Policy Review has a Tera discussion thread as well.
i feel like you copy-pasted this from another post you made on the topic. i do agree that tiering policy needs some updates, but banning a move that only breaks a few mons would set a dangerous precedent
Trying to say that a Pokémon that isn't even particularly viable in OU using ~TERA~ Blast without terastalizing, with an extremely specific use case, and not even successfully, means that TERA Blast is not related to TERA, is a hardcore reach.
wowie zowie, i never realized that tera blast has "tera" in the name! that must mean the move is exactly the same as the mechanic, and banning the move would be exactly the same as banning the mechanic! i won't address whatever the actual point you're trying to make here is because it's not worth dignifying with a response. to be frank, neither is the rest of your argument, but unfortunately for you i have a very low sense of self-worth
There are enough people that like enough aspects of Terastalization that identifying problematic dynamics it creates and minimizing impacts to the rest of the mechanic are key, and the fact that banning Tera Blast prevents it from being used with out Terastalizing is virtually inconsequential
you know what else is virtually inconsequential? banning tera blast. it accomplishes nothing at best and actively harms the meta at worst, and for what? because you want so badly to use regieleki in ou that you'd rather axe a perfectly fine move?
 

luckie

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I will echo what was being discussed in the first pages and say that we should definitely restrict Tera with Tera Preview if we want to have any hope in changing the status quo this time around. Yeah, Tera Preview doesn't fix the issue completely, but there's no way a full ban will win and this is a compromise that most of us can agree on.

Personally as a low ELO player, I find the mechanic too overbearing on team building, but I will grant the Pro Tera side this: after playing a bit more with it, the mechanic DOES value skillful play. Knowledge of meta trends makes Tera less volatile and easier to maneuver. That being said, I don't think anybody can deny that surprise Tera flavor of the week can have the same impact on a match's outcome than a skillful Tera play. (I'm looking at you, surprise Tera Steel Roaring Moon that reverse sweeped me last minute.)

I personally do not like it, but I am aware OU isn't decided by my whims, and I do see some of the merits to the mechanic. So I think the compromise of Tera Preview (mechanic stays but we no longer have surprise Tera flavor of the week) would work well enough, for now.
Honestly, very well said, and largely where I stand as well. I can definitely see how Tera not only enhances play not only from my experience, but for people who are way above me. At the same time though, I definitely can say games have felt less fun and losses have felt more frustrating because of the nature of Tera, being somewhat unpredictable and omnipresent. If I could, I would vote ban, but I'm well aware that camp is small and am perfectly fine with testing out Tera Preview. Who knows? Maybe I'll like it more.
 
Not that I think Tera will get banned, but we are not making an exception to tiering transitivity for the sake of this or anything else. It would defeat a core part of the purpose of tiering. And OU tiering is done without regard regard for lower tiers. Same goes for UU to RU and so on.
I just wonder if there's a 0% chance, 50% chance, any% chance, or something of this being changed in tiering should the discussion but brought up.

I do think if there's a chance to make generational mechanics have seperate tiering it'd ease the burden of lower tiers getting involved with this suspect. Previously we had no precedent for generational mechanics... Z-moves never got tested, dynamax was universally agreed it'd be stupid broken in any format, and megas we got around by selecting specific mega stones. The precedent is set for moves, clauses, items, and mons but whole ass mechanics? This might be one of the bigger chances to smogon as a whole that's necessary for this kind of thing, even if tera gets no restrictions rendering this freedom to tier generational mechanics individually useless in practice, its nice to have down the road.
 
I just wonder if there's a 0% chance, 50% chance, any% chance, or something of this being changed in tiering should the discussion but brought up.

I do think if there's a chance to make generational mechanics have seperate tiering it'd ease the burden of lower tiers getting involved with this suspect. Previously we had no precedent for generational mechanics... Z-moves never got tested, dynamax was universally agreed it'd be stupid broken in any format, and megas we got around by selecting specific mega stones. The precedent is set for moves, clauses, items, and mons but whole ass mechanics? This might be one of the bigger chances to smogon as a whole that's necessary for this kind of thing, even if tera gets no restrictions rendering this freedom to tier generational mechanics individually useless in practice, its nice to have down the road.
proposal that would probably work but is too silly to consider: we should allow future mechanics unrestricted but just stop coding the gimmicks into showdown. if you wanna use whatever gen 10's goofy-ass mechanic is, go ahead, but you'll have to physically pick up a cartridge

(for future reference, a "generational gimmick" is defined as "any mechanic where your character has some sort of jewelry or orb or something that makes your pokemon emit light of some kind")
 
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i feel like you copy-pasted this from another post you made on the topic. i do agree that tiering policy needs some updates, but banning a move that only breaks a few mons would set a dangerous precedent

wowie zowie, i never realized that tera blast has "tera" in the name! that must mean the move is exactly the same as the mechanic, and banning the move would be exactly the same as banning the mechanic! i won't address whatever the actual point you're trying to make here is because it's not worth dignifying with a response

you know what else is virtually inconsequential? banning tera blast. it accomplishes nothing at best and actively harms the meta at worst, and for what? because you want so badly to use regieleki in ou that you'd rather axe a perfectly fine move?
I honestly don't really care about the "Tera blast saves Volc Espathra and Eleki" aspect much, I could take them or leave them (and in fact I'm highly skeptical that Espathra would be reasonable without Tera Blast) but what I do like about it is the ability to play this game without having to add "or it could turn into a type that beats me and one shot me with Tera blast" to the factors I'm weighing every time one of us sends a Pokémon out. Removing this factor doesn't "actively harm the meta" in my opinion.

I also agree there are several Pokémon (Sneasler is a great example brought up earlier) that are still very questionable with Tera that don't particularly need Tera blast. This is where I point out that everyone has this weird fixation that we need to do ONE thing to Tera and never take tiering action again with this vote. This vote can be on many different restrictions to Tera, including full ban, that all would help make the mechanic more healthy in different ways. We are able to ask multiple yes/no questions on a suspect vote, there's no need to need to "rank a choice" between "Tera preview, Tera blast ban," and "both." No action should not be a yes/No vote, it would simply be the "no" option on all questions. Any combination is possible this way.

We need to keep in mind Tera is a mechanic with several very different applications. We need to end this obsession with doing ONE thing to solve it because it's such a far reaching and diverse mechanic. "Tera blast ban doesn't solve everything" "Tera preview doesn't solve everything" yeah no shit you can change into a bunch of different types and use them for very different purposes offensively, defensively, for support, for a specific utility, to clean, to set up, to sweep, and more. And although I believe "just ban the abusers of Tera" is an incomplete solution on its own it can be used to fill the gaps of our options.

Banning the move is not the same as banning the mechanic, it's banning one singular aspect of the mechanic that a lot of people take issue with (anything being able to lure and kill anything at any point, as well as to use this to set up and sweep with 2-3 ideal stabs.)

Taking action on Terastalization by acting on a move that serves no other viable competitive purpose outside of its interaction with Terastalization does not set a precedent because there are no other moves designed around interacting with Terastalization.
 
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This is where I point out that everyone has this weird fixation that we need to do ONE thing to Tera and never take tiering action again with this vote. This vote can be on many different restrictions to Tera, including full ban, that all would help make the mechanic more healthy in different ways. We are able to ask multiple yes/no questions on a suspect vote, there's no need to need to "rank a choice" between "Tera preview, Tera blast ban," and "both." No action should not be a yes/No vote, it would simply be the "no" option on all questions. Any combination is possible this way.
this i can agree with. we should really be limiting it to a list of "yes/no" options because it seems like a combination of binary and ranked-choice voting is genuinely too difficult for some people to understand (for example, people who wanted tiering action but voted "no action" out of what i assume they thought was strategy).
there are no other moves designed around interacting with Terastalization.
i have a feeling this is not going to age well when terapagos drops
 
i have a feeling this is not going to age well when terapagos drops
I think it's pretty fair to assume we can exclude potential exclusive moves to Terapagos in this discussion, not only because we have no evidence of this, but also because that would be a discussion about Terapagos, not Tera
 
I think it's pretty fair to assume we can exclude potential exclusive moves to Terapagos in this discussion, not only because we have no evidence of this, but also because that would be a discussion about Terapagos, not Tera
true, that's a discussion for a much later time. still doesn't change the fact that tera blast isn't broken and should not be banned
 

awyp

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The more time that's gone by and more conversation with other players I'm leaning towards Tera Blast ban over Team Preview just because Tera Blast adds another layer that you have to prepare for that I think can be pretty overwhelming and the move itself after terastallizing has a 120 BP which is a lot in comparison to something like Hidden Power (70).
 
The more time that's gone by and more conversation with other players I'm leaning towards Tera Blast ban over Team Preview just because Tera Blast adds another layer that you have to prepare for that I think can be pretty overwhelming and the move itself after terastallizing has a 120 BP which is a lot in comparison to something like Hidden Power (70).
Yeah, personally I would prefer a Tera Blast ban over Tera preview since it is not altering mechanics, but I believe it will have a side effect of making Gambit stronger than it already is by making mons like Galarian Articuno unable to touch it.

I am a Gambit propagandist though so I will support any decision to make it stronger.
 
Yeah, personally I would prefer a Tera Blast ban over Tera preview since it is not altering mechanics, but I believe it will have a side effect of making Gambit stronger than it already is by making mons like Galarian Articuno unable to touch it.

I am a Gambit propagandist though so I will support any decision to make it stronger.
It's even not wholly a Gambit buff because Gambit has a lot of fun with Tera Blast Fairy. Giving it one less option makes it more bearable
 

Finchinator

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Terastallization is easily the most polarizing and controversial topic in the history of competitive Pokemon. It’s important that we get this right.

For me personally, it’s been pretty humbling being in charge of the format with so much on the line, but it’s also a big responsibility that I take really seriously. Given that, I think I owe the community my thoughts and full transparency on the process, Tera itself, and recent developments.

Tera is unique and has evoked a wide array of responses. You have talented and long-tenured players on both extremes saying the game is ruined by the mere presence of Tera and that the game would be ruined by the removal of Tera. As a councilmen and leader, you have to throw all of your people-pleasing instincts out the window and just find out what’s best for your metagame. I think our approach in finding that has gotten better over the last couple of generations (obviously always room for improvement though).

Historically council decisions have been determined internally with the council deciding on early quickbans and the subjects of suspects without much external consultation. This isn’t a shot at 10+ years of councils, including the first 3-4 years I was a councilmen, but just how Smogon was. Since I took over and TDK came up with surveys during the middle of last generation, we have transitioned to a data-driven approach fueled by our playerbase with surveys. We also have tried to be as transparent and communicative with any parts of the process that have to be handled quickly or internally during this time as well. It certainly hasn’t been perfect and as recently as the Volcarona ban, there have been controversies and learning experiences galore, but we are trying to make this a tier by the players and for the players.

And to me, it seems like many players want to keep Tera around. In particular, the vast majority of posts in the PR thread indicate a desire to keep it around while a smaller, but still clear, majority of the points made in OU discussion thread reflect the same. Of course, there are still a lot of reasons to keep Tera discussions going such as its survey response and the ardent expressions of anti-Tera sentiment in the other posts. In all honesty, you can justify a suspect on Tera now in various formats right now and it is entirely on the table. However, you can also justify pushing the envelope a bit longer be it in a matter of weeks or looking again after DLC and then tackling Kingambit first with a suspect. The council has been discussing these options and will continue to. I do not expect a verdict today or tomorrow, but likely next week as we ramp up in the coming days.

Personally I think Tera is pretty complicated. It is a whole mechanic, so looking at it in the same exact way as a Pokemon is tough and that is our normal approach for suspects, so we have to be careful here. With this in mind, over time you can draw conclusions about how it impacts the balancing of our metagame and the competitiveness/skillfulness of the format through the lens of the Pokemon throughout the format. Obviously there is the whole debate of aggressively tiering Pokemon impacted by Tera (i.e: what we have done) vs touching Tera, and I do not think it is a super linear argument as there is so much makeup behind both, but in going to a suspect, we would essentially give the community a chance to determine if the current approach is optimal or of the fundamentals need to be altered to maximize this generation's potential.

I think that Tera itself offers a lot of skillful interactions to our metagame. For starters, it rewards a lot of playing experience/knowledge as to what does what as there are so many nuisances to Tera. In addition, sequencing and the risk-reward to Tera'ing at a certain point, using a Tera offensively or defensively, etc. offers great strategic merit. There is no denying that there are more decisions made by players throughout games with Tera than without. However, it is also true that not every single decision is a balanced one and not every inference can be viewed equally as some have certain confidence and intuition behind them while others a bit less so. It's hard not to look at it a bit through the scope of how many Pokemon have been impacted by Tera to the point that they have been deemed banworthy, which you can likely say applies to Regieleki, Espathra, Volcarona, and Annihilape. It is not a perfect or really relevant (to the current metagame) to largely go off of things already banned though -- if anything, this just opens up discussion on Tera Blast, which caused 3 of those things to be broken arguably. I think all things considered: if we are looking for the most balanced metagame that results in fewer bans and aligns with the norms of prior generations, then Tera may not have as much of a place. However, if we are looking for the most skillful and completitive metagame with layers of strategy that still has potential for balancing, then Tera very much has a place. While my historic tiering insight makes me feel the former is important and we should do something on Tera, it seems like a lot of the community embraces Tera and aligns more with the latter. I take no issue with that myself.

A lot is up in the air and I hope to update people more formally next week, but the council is discussing a lot internally, including the contents/vibe of this thread, and I will do my best to keep you updated. Formal testing on Tera still remains an option, but so does pivoting to something else like a Kingambit test and potentially looking into this down the road.
 
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