SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Robot_3]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not for the SwagPlay ban as it is because yes it's a luck based strategy, but also a completely luck reliant one. I could get more in depth but this almost reminds me of final countdown in ygo.

It's only luck-reliant if you assume that you are going to stay in on a Prankster Swagger + Thunder Wave Klefki with a Pokemon weak to these moves.
If you have a good team and have something to deal with this (as you should), then you can plan for the threat like any other, meaning that dealing with the strategy is not luck-based at all.

There is an 80% chance not to move on a turn where you are paralyzed and confused.
This has better "accuracy" than Focus Blast, yet nobody is calling for a ban on Focus Blast because it is a "luck based strategy."

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I want to make something clear: SwagPlay is not comparable to Paraflinch. For Jirachi/Togekiss to successfully flinch something to death, it must use only its flinching move over and over. There are also plenty of things that can OHKO each one before being paralyzed, and even things that are outsped by them have a 75% chance to hit them on the first turn anyway. On the other hand, SwagPlayers are practically guaranteed to hit first, and they immediately reduce the opponent to only a 50% chance of attacking. They also have the luxury of doing whatever the hell they want while the opponent is confused instead of trying to flinch them. This includes substitute, which gives them a safety mechanism that no paraflincher can effectively use. SwagPlay is at the same time less consistent and more dangerous than Paraflinch, which is why it is way closer to being broken.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I think it would be best to ban all confusion moves as well as Attract, mostly for the sake of consistency. Confusion itself does nothing but add an unnecessary luck factor to the game for the sake of inducing luck. It is unlike paralysis in that the primary purpose of paralysis is to cripple an opponent's speed. I don't think there is any harm in extending the ban to all confusion moves, since no one really uses them anyway.

consistency would be all well and good, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with attract. Its easy to avoid and counter, while prankster + swagger isn't

 

[Ajwf]

By the way, for those people claiming stall craps on swagplay - every swagplayer out there (bar Klefki iirc) can learn Taunt...

Every stall pokemon out there, bar none, can learn an attack. The weaker power, higher passive recovery rate and defensive cores allow stall to sit and and take no damage as our clerics (who are almost always [99.9%] Specially based or using seismic toss) split these teams in half.

 

[Balsty]

So basically you feel like it shouldn't be banned because you're a fan of it? The only thing you mentioned that was an actual cheap strategy is ParaFlinch, which you don't often build whole teams around. SwagPlay teams often have prankster 3-4 members, and with a ditto in the back waiting to punish you for actually KO'ing a prankster user. Plus Smogon is against luck based play , and SwagPlay is the epitome of luck based play. Oh and Lum Berry is only good against teams with only one SwagPlay member, which isn't often anymore.

It's like you only read the part where I said I use Klefki with Swagger/Foul Play/Twave.

Against luck based play? What is RNG? What are secondary effects? What is Pokemon battles? What are critical hits?
The entire game is based around luck. If we deny all luck from the game, it'll cease to be interesting.

When my Mawile gets a +2 and then KO's Klefki with Fire Fang, and then shakes off confusion in the next turn, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that Swagger exists. When hax causes me to lose a battle, I suck it up.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Finally this thing was brought up.

As many said, Swagger + Foul Play turns the game into a coin-flip. This is the main problem people don't understand. You're laddering with your superb team on the top of the ladder or a tournament, then opponent uses Swagger. You may think "yeah I'll just switch" but then there's the next problem: Not all Swagplay players are retarded. So you switch, but your opponent doesn't watch Versilify like most of you that post here and has an actual strategy, like Toxic, WoW or even fucking Mean Look. Thn he proceeds to destroy you because you got unlucky. And if I face a retarded Swagplayer? Then rely on luck.

It's possible to compare Swagplay to evasion under many aspects. Both are entirely dependant of luck that can go either good or bad, and deep in your heart you want to rape your opponent's mother if you're facing it. As a community (at least imho) what Smogon tries to do is to create an enjoyable metagame, and losing to luck is infuriating. How will I enjoy if I lose to luck? Prankster + Swagger is a damn cancer, it takes your luck and your will to play.

Now please stop suggesting using Lum Berry. I mean it's good but remember: Leftovers exist, so do Mega stones, Life Orb, Choice Items, Black Sludge, etc. If I'm going to use this damn item on every one of my Pokemon then I should apply for B101. That also applies to Own Tempo. I'm going to give up of a slot on my team just to use Avalugg/Numel/Own Tempo Lilligant/Own Tempo Slowbrothers/Espurr just to counter this. So we may unban Megaskhan and Kyogre.

Oh and switching? And Stall? Well if you relinquish a good portion of your precious time it may work because it'll last forever till one of the players die of boredom, and don't forget that hazards and Taunt can shut down your precious switching stall if opponent has the upper hand. "Hurr there''s Magic Bounce and Coat too" Good luck predicting wrongly a Foul Play and dying.

And you saying "I have X on my team so SwagPlay is not broken blablabla no ban" I have something to say for you:

I'm up for banning Swagger + Prankster because Swagger + Foul Play is the dirty tactic. Foul Play doesn't really stack with Confuse Ray and friends. And banning confusion is dumb because most Pokemon with non-Swagger confusion moves have better things to do. I don't mind banning confusion as long as Machamp and Chatot.

Stop watching Versilify, antis.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I think it would be best to ban all confusion moves as well as Attract, mostly for the sake of consistency. Confusion itself does nothing but add an unnecessary luck factor to the game for the sake of inducing luck. It is unlike paralysis in that the primary purpose of paralysis is to cripple an opponent's speed. I don't think there is any harm in extending the ban to all confusion moves, since no one really uses them anyway.

If this isn't sarcasm we may need to remove your Tier Contrib

Ban confusion moves? They aren't even legitimate strategies, they're coinflips that, when used by themselves, hurt the user more than the opponent because of the waste of moveslot. No one really uses them anyway? Ban Pidgey I guess, I've never seen that on ladder.

 

[See Mohn]

Anecdotal totally-not-evidence: I cobbled together a team in early January with three PrankSwagger users: Sableye, Liepard, Klefki. I don't even remember who the other three pokemon were (basically filler and hazards)
I saw a ludicrous number of ragequits.

That said, it's beatable. Tricky, but beatable. My personal strategy for swagger/prankster users is usually CroCune. Good enough defense to tank a hit or two if confusion hurts me, and if they don't taunt I can Rest off the damage and/or try to buff up with Calm Mind.

In all honesty, while I personally wouldn't mind never seeing the move ever again, I'm not quite willing to say it deserves a ban.
It is, however, annoying as all get-out.

 

[Bobokemon]

I really don't think this a good idea.

I get that losing because of hitting yourself either at crucial moments or constantly is a TERRIBLE way to go, but that really doesn't validate essentially banning a status because of bad luck. If Swagger alone is going to be banned, there might as well be bans for other common luck-cripples. Paralysis. All flinch inducers. Paraflinch abusers. Crits. All consistent rage-inducing luck-based playstyles.

Just like you'll lose a match because Swagkey or Swagcat manage to force you to hit yourself numerous times, there are often times where getting a +2 attack boost can literally have you SWEEP. I use this example not to imply I haven't been swaggerhaxed, but to elaborate: my Mega-Scizor uses Swords ance the turn I get swaggered by a Klefki and dodges the self-hit. +4 Attack. Snap out of confusion next turn and start wasting the other player with Bullet Punch. I won that match and I was pretty behind due to some dumb switches on my part. It's all about luck.

Of course there HAVE been suggestions about running Own Tempo mons or lobbing Lum or Sitrus berries onto everything on your team. I don't think this is NECESSARY, but it's nice that some people are searching for checks before they just wave the white flag and say "Fuck Swagger" like many others are. It's a shame most of the Own Tempo Pokemon are not physical powerhouses or just not good, though.

Personally, the only thing I would like to see banned would be Swagger and Foul Play on the same set. Why? Pokemon who use Prankster Swagplay aren't powerful offensively. They exist for massive utility. Spreading status, entry hazards, support moves like Tailwind and Leech Seed, etc. With Swagger your opponent crosses his or her fingers and hopes to wipe you out with confusion damage. But Foul Play alongside that makes them capable of denting EVERYTHING, especially with how neutrally powerful Dark is after the Steel nerf. I don't find it fair that Pokemon that are entirely based around utility and residual damage are capable of +2ing a Pokemon and then gutting them with Foul Play even IF they don't hit themselves. Foul Play should exist as a move used on Pokemon who literally can't fight back otherwise, such as Umbreon, and not alongside a move that gives it instant power.

So tl;dr my take is that Swagger should NOT be banned, there should not be a complex ban on Swagger and Prankster and there ESPECIALLY should not be a ban on Pokemon who abuse the strategy. Rather, add an option to ban Swagger and Foul Play on the same set, and see if people go for that. Swagger alone still forces a person to rely on the victim to hit themselves. Swagplay gives utility Pokemon an offensive presence and gives them the ability to dent everything after just one use.

Tell me what you think.

 

[noobcubed]

Moody was banned because it actually is a totally luck-based strategy that has no counter-play besides maybe roar which won't work on a last pokemon or ingrain smeargle.
You can play around Swagger + Foul Play easily with a well built team.

Only if you are sufficiently lucky. At some point to beat a swagplay team you WILL have to hit the opponent while confused. This alone wouldn't be so bad, but for every turn you hurt yourself in confusion, your opponent gets another chance to hide behind a Substitute, meaning you will have to hit him AGAIN through confusion. You CANNOT beat a swagplay team without some luck.

 

[Toljik]

The fact that Swagger works 45% of the time (factoring in accuracy) means that it's impossible to ladder consistently with it. Paraflinch Jirachi is annoying too (and is even more likely to stop your attacks than Swagger), but no one would think of banning it.

 

[RedSceptile.]

As an aside god forbid this actually happens there is no fucking way Confusion from other places (and fucking Attract really?) should be even suspected. Dragonite and Volcarano people.

 

[Hidious]

Swag play is forcing both players to play a game of chance instead of skill. It takes all if the competitiveness out if the game and turns a chess match into a coin flip. It's not a strategy, it is a form of trolling. I'm in favor of the prankster + swagger ban.

 

[FurryGah]

Since Swagger is pretty much only used on Pokemon with Prankster anyway, the ban of Swagger + Prankster would be fairly redundant, imo. I am in favor of banning Swagger though. Any move, item, or combination that makes the game uncompetitive and/or luck-based is undesirable, imo.

 

[MarcoPKMN]

I don't really see why it should be banned, this "strategy" has several counters that makes it unreliable.

1. Magic Bounce
   
2. Faster Priority, ExtremeSpeed
   
3. Reducing your attack to minimum when you're a special attacker
   
4. Switching out. Yes, it does force switches but how is that unbalanced? Yawn does the same thing. You could call it a pseudo-pseudo-haze
   
5. Liepard has really awful stats, except speed, even a sneeze could KO it, really.
   
6. Klefki does have better stats and typing but it gets outsped by even more Pokémon.
   
7. Thundurus... well just ban him.
   
8. The infiltrator buff and sound based moves prevent them from just sub protecting waiting for you to hit yourself
9. It's extremely luck based on both sides. If they're not enough lucky you'll get a free SD boost by your enemy
   
10. Confusion isn't reliable, at all. It has a chance of not doing anything, it doesn't last when you switch and can even randomly cure itself.

 

[Gary]

Honestly at this point, I don't even care if I insult anyone. I've been looking forward to this opportunity for so long. I'm going to pick apart some of the major anti-ban arguments that I've seen so far.

First off, Swagger teams are by far the most uncompetitive strategies I have ever seen in my time on Smogon. It's one of the most luck based piece of shit strategies that even extremely high level players struggle to play around. It's humiliating how some of these posts try to make it seem like it's the easiest thing to get around. "Oh just use Magic Bouncers, or Magic Coat, or something that's immune to paralysis". So you're telling me that in order to have a good chance at even beating Swagger teams, I have to use either Espeon or Xatu which are niche as hell in OU and are weak to Foul Play, something that uses Magic Coat which isn't the easiest move to fit onto a team unless you're using Deo-S or Deo-D which are both, wouldn't you know, weak to Foul Play, AND something that is immune to paralysis but still has a chance at being hit by confusion? That's a trash argument. I refuse to use all these things on my team just to beat a dumb strategy that shouldn't even be around in the first place. If I have to use all those things on all of my teams, then it's not only uncompetitive, but also hinders team building.

Also, I can't even begin to fathom how any decent competitive player would want Prankster+Swagger still around. There is absolutely no competitive value with this strategy because you're completely relying on luck to help you win, and most players who use this strategy can't build a good enough team to win so they resort to using this to try and get higher on the ladder. Yes there are trolls and yes there are people who use it just to prove a point, but there are a handful of people that use this strategy simply because it's easy as hell to use, there's no skill involved at all other than just spamming Sub/Swagger and occasionally paralyzing something. It just ruins the fun for people who are actually trying to enjoy this game, and if anyone saw the posts in the Inside Scoop version of this thread, you'll see what I mean when I say that most if not all tournament players want this shit banned, because even the best of the best lose to trash players using this strategy due to it being all lucked based.

Posts like these:

What's the matter, Trainer? Is draining 24PP too much work?

Makes it clear to me that this poster has no idea what the fuck they're talking about. He's implying that in order to beat Swagger teams you have to waste your time draining the PP out of not 1, not 2, but 6 Pokemon. What kind of horseshit is that? How is this competitive at all? How can you even begin to explain to me how this is healthy? This isn't fun or enjoyable, it's just a pointless stalling match. It's not healthy at all, and if you're using Klefki on a SwagPlay team, you're probably gonna use Spikes and probably something with Stealth Rock to limit switching, which makes is impossible to PP stall without dying to entry hazards first. Pretty much all of the good defoggers and spinners are completely obliterated by Foul Play at +2. Anyways, that's enough about this post. It's probably a troll anyway.

All in all, I just don't get why anyone that can consider themselves a well seasoned or competitive player would want to keep Prankster Swagger around. It's very hard to play around, it's completely luck based, and unless you make sure all of your teams are extremely well prepared for Swagger teams, then you're always going to be at a disadvantage. It's just as uncompetitive as Evasion and OHKO moves, because they're all entirely based on the flip of a coin and once the ball gets rolling, it's really hard to stop without having so serious luck on your side. I'm all for banning Prankster+Swagger because that's where most of the uncompetitive aspects come from. Swagger and confusion moves themselves can be worked around, but Prankster+Swagger is nearly impossible to work around for obvious reasons.

I guess my final question for you guys is, what exactly makes this strategy competitive to some of you? I understand that some people want to keep it simply because they enjoy using it, but that doesn't make it right to keep it. I enjoyed using Mega Gengar, but that shit was broken as hell, and it needed to leave. What makes this strategy any different, aside from the fact that it's also completely uncompetitive and goes against what Smogon is trying to accomplish? Anything can be considered a strategy, but that doesn't make it unworthy of a ban. Prankster+Swagger is a strategy that requires no skill whatsoever, which is something Smogon is trying to get the fuck out of here.

To be honest if this shit isn't banned, then us as a community need to come up with a new definition for uncompetitiveness, because Prankster+Swagger is just that.

 

[Balsty]

Of course there HAVE been suggestions about running Own Tempo mons or lobbing Lum or Sitrus berries onto everything on your team. I don't think this is NECESSARY, but it's nice that some people are searching for checks before they just wave the white flag and say "Fuck Swagger" like many others are. It's a shame most of the Own Tempo Pokemon are not physical powerhouses or just not good, though.

I agree, it's nice that people are trying to be creative and provide solutions to the clear threat that is SwagPlay, rather than just flat out screaming for a ban.

To anyone else trying to think up counters, checks, and ways to get around this horrendous moveset, I commend you. You are a true player of the game, and a true competitive battler. You don't let things like Game Freak's stupid balance department stop your creativity.

 

[CL0V3R]

Since Swagger is pretty much only used on Pokemon with Prankster anyway, the ban of Swagger + Prankster would be fairly redundant, imo. I am in favor of banning Swagger though. Any move, item, or combination that makes the game uncompetitive and/or luck-based is undesirable, imo.

I use it on a Foul Play/Swagger Umbreon.
So it's used outside of just prankster pokemon.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

I am against a ban on the combination of Swagger and Foul Play on the grounds that it is a valid strategy that is not entirely based upon luck. I believe an analysis of iterated turns with calculation of expected turn losses will showcase my opinion.

Consider the following:
1. Confusion is a status effect which lasts for 1-4 turns and gives a 50% chance to damage self with a base 40 power typeless attack
1a. Given that Confusion lasts an average of 2.5 turns with a 50% chance of hitting self, we can generate an expected (1.25 * .9) = 1.125 lost turns per average Swagger IF the opponent stays in for the entire confusion.
1b. This also means that we can expect to hit self for 1.125 * 40 power per Swagger attempt if confused.

2. Foul Play is often rarely attempted unless a Substitute is up.

On any given turn, there is indeed a luck component, however, once iterated, we can generate an expected number of lost turns. Usage of Substitute is a leveraging AGAINST chance, since it reduces the expected cost of a given successful turn to only 25% (the cost of the Substitute). Let's analyze this with some cases.

Case 1: Confusion lasts 1 turn. (25% of the time)
Given 1 turn of confusion, there is a 50% chance that at least one turn will fail and Substitute will be successful.

Case 2: Confusion lasts 2 turns. (25% of the time)
Given 2 turns of confusion, there is a 75% chance that at least one turn will fail and Substitute will be successful.

Case 3: Confusion lasts 3 turns. (25% of the time)
Given 3 turns of confusion, there is a 87.5% chance that at least one turn will fail and Substitute will be successful.

Case 4: Confusion lasts 4 turns. (25% of the time)
Given 4 turns of confusion, there is a 92.75% chance that at least one turn will fail and Substitute will be successful.

(0.25 * .5) + (0.25 * 0.75) + (0.25 * 87.5) + (0.25 * 92.75) = 76.3125% that a free turn will be generated ASSUMING the enemy stays in when Swagger lands.

This means that, if the confused Pokemon does not switch, there is a GREATER chance that a Foul Play will occur with a successful substitute than Focus Blast's accuracy!

The combination of priority Swagger AND Subsitute legitimizes the strategy because it no longer is only chance. ITERATED tilted coin flips may be chance in a single roll, but it becomes more reliable with a greater sample size. In the best case situation, it is more reliable than Focus Blast. In the worst case situation (facing an enemy with Volt Switch/U-Turn that can break subs, causing a 2 turn loss for the Swagger user), the odds are likely stacked in favor of the VoltTurner.

Furthermore, the value of the free turns DIMINISHES with the bulkiness/low attack of the Pokemon fighting the Swagger user. Against Rotom-W, most used in OU, for example, Foul Play is expected to do a base 13.4 - 16.1% damage and the same damage additionally per Swagger boost. The amount of iterated coin flips that need to be won against the SwagPlayer becomes so high that, given smart switching, the low Foul Play damage can be leveraged to win.

Essentially, any team with a VoltTurn core, defensive Pokemon without high attack like Rotom-W or Blissey or another wall, decent defensive Pokemon that resist Foul Play (Heatran, Mandibuzz), or, less commonly, an Own Tempo user will WIN the iterated coin flips so long as they don't allow themselves to get Swaggered up to +6 and take significant Foul Play damage.

 

[LuS]

It's like you only read the part where I said I use Klefki with Swagger/Foul Play/Twave.

Against luck based play? What is RNG? What are secondary effects? What is Pokemon battles? What are critical hits?
The entire game is based around luck. If we deny all luck from the game, it'll cease to be interesting.

When my Mawile gets a +2 and then KO's Klefki with Fire Fang, and then shakes off confusion in the next turn, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that Swagger exists. When hax causes me to lose a battle, I suck it up.

You can't control those hax though, you directly control Swagplay's hax. Something you directly have a hand in (SwagPlay), is nowhere close to as fair as something you have no hand in (RNG).

 

[PDC]

yeah totally a valid strategy that relies completely on luck and hoping that your opponent hits himself! wow! the skill is just too great. it probably shouldn't be banned but you can't deny it is a bullshit strategy.

 

[noobcubed]

Just like you'll lose a match because Swagkey or Swagcat manage to force you to hit yourself numerous times, there are often times where getting a +2 attack boost can literally have you SWEEP.

If swagplay allowed unskilled players to win consistently, it would be banned for being overpowering. It is not being discussed for be overpowering, but rather for being anti-competitive.

The reality is more that a Swagplay team will win maybe 30% of the time (that's a conservative estimate, the exact figure doesn't matter), regardless of the skill level of the player. Not enough to be useful to good players, but enough that some people might risk it if they feel they can't win very many matches by conventional means. Therefore an unskilled player could use swagplay and have a solid chance to topple the SPL winner. I would be very happy to see a newer player do this by outplaying his opponent, or even by getting a lucky break or two - but I loathe seeing so-called competitive play reduced to a dice roll.

 

[CL0V3R]

yeah totally a valid strategy that relies completely on luck and hoping that your opponent hits himself! wow! the skill is just too great. it probably shouldn't be banned but you can't deny it is a bullshit strategy.

To be honest I don't think most people are using it for the confusion, more so the stat boost. At least that's why I use it.
I mean even if we ban swagger, I can still just switch into someone who's DD'd or SD's their stats.

 

[Balsty]

Only if you are sufficiently lucky. At some point to beat a swagplay team you WILL have to hit the opponent while confused. This alone wouldn't be so bad, but for every turn you hurt yourself in confusion, your opponent gets another chance to hide behind a Substitute, meaning you will have to hit him AGAIN through confusion. You CANNOT beat a swagplay team without some luck.

4 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 132-156 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 162-192 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Who is faster?

I'm not going to deny that it's a bullshit strategy, but when you really look, there's a LOT of bullshit strategies in Pokemon. It's how the game is. Get used to it, because the ride never ends.

 

[MEGUMI NAKAJIMA.]

Please don't ban SwagPlay. I use it a physically defensive Umbreon with Wish, Leftovers, and Protect. I also have Unaware Quagsire as backup in case it backfires on me. The confusion damage is nice, but boosted STAB Foul Play is the main event. Maybe that still counts as luck-based, I don't know. But I would be very sad to not be able to use my Umbreon anymore just because people like using it with Pranksters and Thunder Wave/Substitute.