SV UU Metagame Discussion

[Deathbringer7]

A bit surprised Gapdos isn't on the radar, there's really no switchin to it's STABs other than something like a really Phys Def Hippo (that probably also crumples to Band + Tera on a STAB). Dirge is probably unsustainable in the UU meta. It's a non passive wall that can snowball out of control really easily and makes spinning nigh impossible (Donphan feels like dead slot), and the last part is doubly unfortunate since Kleavor's rocks are really hard to deal with.
I think Meow in the current landscape is a bit mediocre, the massive influx of flying types didn't help it one bit and I just think it fails to hit the field and apply enough pressure outside of knocking, something like Scizor feels more valuable as on offensive pivot due to Cress and Enam-T being giga annoying (BP priority is always nice).
On the topic of H-Lilly, imo it's probably the most obvious quickban, a single Victory Dance can seal the deal as CC + Ice Spinner hits a tremendous amount of mons for SE, making clicking Victory Dance in the late game pretty much an instant win (same can be said for Goltres btw , I thought Ttar and Tink would help manage it but Tera bypasses those making this mon truly ridiculous. This thing can straight up win in the mid game with very little team support). Tornadus Therian seems ok atm.

 

[Negative Charge]

I think this is the most dramatic tier shift I have ever seen (been playing OU and UU since BW). I am not sure what the most problematic element is because they are very much in a jenga-like arrangement right now. I don't think skeledirge is QB worthy though, it's a really unique mon that compresses many roles and it might be desirable to keep it after a suspect.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Alright, so I was struggling at first to figure out why folks were calling Iron Hands, my sweet chonky boi worthy of a Quick Ban beyond PTSD from the last time it was in the tier. Turns out I was just being too cute. I'm so used to needing to tech around an omnipresent threat that I started out running stuff like BE/LO 4 attacks to improve the MU against Quag and Dirge. Then I just switched to Tera Ground SD with Lum Berry and lolololol, yeah, sorry for polluting your tier, friends.

It's too bad because defensive sets are really fun to play and feel useful to the tier -- I especially liked actually being able to run Volt Switch on Iron Hands -- but that power and bulk is just too much. I started going into detail about why I think Tera Ground with Lum is better than Tera Fire with X, but that just feels like a waste of everybody's time since he's probably got to go, anyway.



In other news, amidst all of the talk about Breloom, Hisuigant, and, to a lesser extent Basculegion-F, I do want to bring attention to another frail but obscenely powerful breaker:



Specs Tinted Lens can be a cool wincon, especially with Esper Wing. Tinted Lens Stored Power is very silly cheese behind screens. But I'm here today to preach the gospel of Sheer Force Braviary-Hisui.

Braviary-Hisui (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Psychic
- Hurricane/Air Slash
- Heat Wave/Shadow Ball

One Agility makes you faster than all Scarfers under base 90 speed. From there, you just click buttons.

Tera Flying because it's generally a better defensive type. Hurricane vs Air Slash is a bit of a tossup. Hurricane is the bigger nuke when it hits, but Air Slash is more reliable. Factoring accuracy and flinch/confusion chance, Air Slash is technically the tiniest bit more powerful over the long haul, but Braviary-H is frail enough that you don't really want to rely on the flinch, but it's also frail enough that you don't want to risk missing the Hurricane, but but but.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 239-283 (58.1 - 68.8%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 226-268 (53 - 62.9%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Wo-Chien: 161-192 (43 - 51.3%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary-Hisui Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Iron Hands: 494-585 (110 - 130.2%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Braviary-Hisui Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Tinkaton: 260-307 (69.5 - 82%)

No buts. Brav gets in, things die. It's that simple. Replays later if I can.

 

[MrE]

A bit surprised Gapdos isn't on the radar, there's really no switchin to it's STABs other than something like a really Phys Def Hippo (that probably also crumples to Band + Tera on a STAB). Dirge is probably unsustainable in the UU meta. It's a non passive wall that can snowball out of control really easily and makes spinning nigh impossible (Donphan feels like dead slot), and the last part is doubly unfortunate since Kleavor's rocks are really hard to deal with.
I think Meow in the current landscape is a bit mediocre, the massive influx of flying types didn't help it one bit and I just think it fails to hit the field and apply enough pressure outside of knocking, something like Scizor feels more valuable as on offensive pivot due to Cress and Enam-T being giga annoying (BP priority is always nice).
On the topic of H-Lilly, imo it's probably the most obvious quickban, a single Victory Dance can seal the deal as CC + Ice Spinner hits a tremendous amount of mons for SE, making clicking Victory Dance in the late game pretty much an instant win (same can be said for Goltres btw , I thought Ttar and Tink would help manage it but Tera bypasses those making this mon truly ridiculous. This thing can straight up win in the mid game with very little team support). Tornadus Therian seems ok atm.

Can you explain how Dirge blocks spin when Donphan does this? I don't understand.

24+ Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 284-336 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

IDK if this is the set people are running with Donphan (if I want spin I build with Cyclizar) I just picked the UU assault vest set on showdown calc.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

- overated little shit is the 3 words i can use to describe it. not only is it weak to rocks but also helmet is a bitch for it and base 90 isnt the fastest and makes it so it really cant switch in esp with its rocks weakness

- its very annoying.... esp using bulky teams and how tink can be flinched down but ttar is very solid, tera rock hippo to, and some more but we will see.... its prob gonna see its way on screens teams or maybe even drop hurricane for maybe tera fighting or tera ground to hit ttar and other things.

- uh so far if you predict wrong ur fucked... and that is not smth good when its surf is pretty free esp since smth like slowking wants fuck all with it unless it wants to eat an adapt shadow ball first. Hydreigon can check it till you eat a specs ice beam + no recovery + hydreigon doesnt want to check it in the first place means ur prob gonna lose... esp if its gonna be spamming tera ghost shadow ball. our counterplay is tera slowking, sp. def gastrodon and not getting haxed, and 40/216 alo to scout it unless its specs

- till you can setup on gastro, quag, alo, hippo, slowbro, slowking and just go to town... idk if its broken yet... but it seems it has a lot of opportunities to go ham esp since tera steel just gets rid of its weakness and can turn the tables on fairies anyway.. also makes setting up even easier

well... torch song is very annoying to switch into... esp with wisp + hex being a threat. and it has a pretty good typing to abuse esp since wisp + hex poses a lot of threat to many resists. but yeah.... burning its checks and torch song just ramps up pretty quickly

- prob busted... tera ghost + SD just is unwallable but SD in general since its very fat and with tera hard to predict

 

[Negative Charge]

How does talonflame fare in the new meta? It seems to have fallen off dramatically as a glue mon. Its ability to be a physical wall is outclassed by skeledirge (which is also much more threatening offensively) so that leaves it as a defogger that can pivot.

 

[FloopThePig]

Pleasantly surprised with Electrode's performance in the tier despite Grass-types being everywhere (although I love using Grass-types so I won't complain about it). Unfortunately its SubSeed set is trash, but its Choice sets allow it to be a good offensive pivot and revenge killer. Even Thundurus-T can't safely block its Volt Switch since it takes like 50% from specs Leaf Storm. Tera Ice is meh since unlike Regieleki it could already hit Ground-types and being SR weak is not good for it. Just run Tera Electric and spam the skillful Volt Switch to chip at grasses and dragons.

Useful speed tiers:
- Modest outspeeds up to Talonflame and +1 Timid Braviary
- Timid outspeeds up to +1 Jolly Gyarados
- Scarf Modest outspeeds +1 Jolly Lilligant (Leaf Storm does 37.3% minimum without CC drops and 56.9% min at -1) and even +2 Modest/Adamant Articuno, Moltres, and Ceruledge
- Scarf Timid outspeeds both +2 Timid/Jolly Articuno, Moltres, and Ceruledge. Not satisfied with its damage output without Tera though.

Oh it also blocks Torch Song in case people forgot. And despite having that speed, Electro Ball still sucks. I tried pairing it with Discharge but not even paralysis speed drops can make that move good.

 

[somethingaboutsomething]

How does talonflame fare in the new meta? It seems to have fallen off dramatically as a glue mon. Its ability to be a physical wall is outclassed by skeledirge (which is also much more threatening offensively) so that leaves it as a defogger that can pivot.

i believe hard loosing to scarf kleavor makes talon no longer one of the premier hazard controls of the tier.

Also on another note, how's gardevoir doing? It just rose to UU this tier but with all the new stronger stuff i predict it'll be back to RU soon...

 

[Bice]

Thank you so much for putting up a radar post. Once that radar's over with, here's a couple of other things that should be looked at:

- Genuinely surprised this thing didn't make it to the radar, it mixes a good Attack stat with an absurd Speed tier to be an utter menace. Flower Trick is a stupid signature move, and STAB Knock Off is STAB Knock Off, in addition to being able to use U-Turn better than everyone's favorite(?) frog. Its typing and the Protean nerf do let it down, but doing nearly half to Torn-T without an item is not OK. This isn't even mentioning its great utility movepool either, hosting classics such as Taunt and (Toxic(???)) Spikes

I can definitely understand the no-ban sentiment for this mon, especially since most ladder players who use it have the IQ of spoiled strawberry milk, but frankly the power of its Dragon moves is absurd. The best non-Tera Fairy rn, Tinkaton, hates eating an Earth Power, and others are Tera Steel bait. Being Tera reliant sucks, but once Dirge goes I'd imagine this thing's gonna go even crazier. I think DragMag with this dude is under-explored, and could even pair well with a fairy from the pre-HOME days

- The overall lower power level of UU makes Dual Screens strategies just plain unfun to face. Many teams can't simply stall out screen turns before getting smashed by Hyper Offense, and Defog is often punished by Gapdos (and Garticuno if you're feeling funny). The bulls aren't doing too hot and don't always utilize their signature moves, and Brick Break is an unmove so don't bring that up. There's honestly not much counterplay against screens in this tier, and its biggest enabler should go

 

[gabraltar]

Current Thoughts on The Radar Mons:

Easy ban, it's extremely brainless and hits too hard.


No idea why people think this thing is balanced. Tera Steel is too threatening to balance as it takes advantage of the bulky grounds that balance relies on so heavily way too well. It's difficult to revenge kill due to the insanity that is Steel typing with levitate and not being passive on top of that. I guess it struggles with offense but unless you want balance to be bad in uu, this thing needs to go.


Very conflicted on this. On one hand, it's a really good defensive piece of the meta and keeps several dangerous setup sweepers in check. On the other hand, it can sometimes feel a bit too hard to deal with for a defensive poke thanks Will-O-Wisp and ability to snowball with Torch Song. Generally speaking, I feel as though it's rare for defensive pokes to be overpowered and it's generally easier to deal with a metagame defining defensive poke than offensive. Generally speaking, I feel like Skeledrige punishes teams that don't have enough immediate offensive pressure and people will adapt to it by restructuring offensive teams to focus less on setup threats and more on immediate offense with choice items while balance teams will do something similar while also having bulky waters like quag and gastro around to help. Tera Fire on physical mons can likely help a lot. I don't think it's quick ban worthy but very much worthy of a suspect.


eh..... Hippowdon, Quagsire and Gastrodon exist. All of which run Rocky Helmet effectively as well.


Honestly hard to say but it with Tera Ground on screens definitely seems difficult to handle. The one sort of limiting factor is that it struggles to fit Tera Ground on double dance sets so it has to choose between coverage and speed.


Not enough experience with either to say for sure honestly. I'm leaning towards Breloom being broken cause of Spore and how there aren't a lot of good options to absorb it. Hisuian Lilligant seems fine cause its kept in check by Skeledirge but that's only one poke so I can't say for sure honestly.

 

[Moutemoute]

Alright I'll already gave my thoughts on the things I think are too good on the tier. Other Pokemon mentionned on the Under Inspection are not ban worthy in my opinion (as you'll be able to read since I'm going to talk about some of them on this post).

I've been using Kleavor quite a lot recently and I think it's a great Pokémon in the tier. Stone Axe is definitively a nice tool and this Pokémon is imo almost perfect. I sincerely regret it doesn't get Knock Off because this would be amazing on this kind of Pokémon. When it dropped I focused mainly on the Suicide Lead with Focus Sash but now I'm more a fan of its pivot set with Heavy-Duty Boots and 4 attacks (U-turn / X-Scissor / Stone Axe / Close Combat). Kleavor has a decent speed tier and an overall good bulk which allows it to eat most of the time one hit from things such as Meowscarada, Skeledirge or Ceruledge. I've been using a lot this Pokémon alongside Tinkaton, which can replace Stealth Rock for another move (such as Thunder Wave, Protect or Swords Dance) and it has been a blast to play with this Pokémon so far.

I know this Pokémon has already caused a lot of ink but I don't think it's broken at all. I've been messing with Arcanine-H in many ways and every set has good flaws which allows to play around. Life Orb Morning Sun + 3 attacks can get chipped pretty easily due to Life Orb and Entry Hazards which forces it to use Morning Sun quite a lot while Choice Band need some good anticipation in order to shine. Sure Choice Band Head Smash does a trillion to a ton of things but Arcanine-H can't really come back and forth on the field vs a good opponent. Entry Hazards are a nightmare for it and it can be weakened quite easily. I also think people didn't adapt to it yet and this make them feel Arcanine-H is too oppressive. As an example, I recently made a team which was quite weak to it and I realized I could just dump some speed on Tinkaton in order to outspeed Arcanine-H and crash a big Gigaton Hammer on its face for at least half of its health (which means I just needed some chip damages to be able to deal with it). I think people will adapt to it and for now Arcanine-H's player tend to be reckless as shit (they never scout if I'm faster with my Tinkaton for example.. maybe this will change after this post who knows ?). The last set I tried is the Suicide Lead one with Stealth Rock + 3 attack. It's...decent I guess ? I feel like Kleavor is overall better but hey, surprise factor can be key sometime.

I have not seen a lot of Slowking but god damn it's a good Pokémon. Chilly Reception + Regenerator is, as expected, great in order to take back some momentum. It's a great check to a lot of Pokémon such as Skeledirge, Arcanine-H, Greninja or Quaquaval so yeah I don't understand why it's not used as much. I guess the popularity of Pokémon such as Kleavor, Hydreigon, Breloom or Goltres tends to cool player to try it but for real, give it a chance. Chilly Reception is also quite insane to bring teammates such as Arcanine-H on the field (especially when it's paired with Future Sight). An overall good Pokémon who'll shine for sure once the metagame will be more stable.

I'll be brief, Tinkaton is still a solid A rank Pokémon imo. Its typing is too valuable, Gigaton Hammer is still super great vs things such as Kleavor or Enamorus-Therian. I've been using more offensive set recently with Swords Dance + Protect + Gigaton Hammer + Knock Off and it's good for sure. Stealth Rock variants are still really valuable but as I said above, I really think fast Tinkaton is the way to go right now. Being able to Encore Ceruledge on Swords Dance or Goltres on Nasty Plot is super useful, being able to outspeed Arcanine-H is also great. That's all, a quick comment for a great Pokémon !

As one of the greatest hater of Donphan and people who're using this Pokémon, I have to preach the good word about Cyclizar. This Pokémon is still really great and in my opinion a far better Rapid Spinner than Donphan. Regenerator is too valuable imo. It's also a great check to Skeledirge thanks to Knock Off and Draco Meteor which allows to pressure Skeledirge due to Unaware ignoring SpA drops (and even sometimes force them to Tera Fairy KEKW). Great speed tier, great pivot, great everything, I'm a fan of the dragon motorcycle !

Last but not least, I would like to talk a bit about Lilligant-H and also why I didn't vote ban on this Pokémon. While I agree that this Pokémon can snowball the shit out of some games, we really need to take into consideration that it struggles a shit ton vs Skeledirge which is one of the most used Pokémon. If you're not using some Tera shenaningans, it's quite simple, you'll never break Skeledirge. Tera Ghost + Tera Blast is imo the best filler on this Pokémon due to E-Speed immunity + being able to hit super effectively Skeledirge but even then, Dirge just has to Tera back and use Will-O-Wisp and you now are the great owner of the most useless dogshit setup sweeper ever, congratulations ! Lilligant-H needs some support to be effective and even then, it's quite shakky. You can't really afford to take a Knock Off because Wide Lens is as important on this Pokémon as it is on Maushold and we all know how meh the family of mice is once its item is removed. I can't deny it might become broken soon (especially if Skeledirge is banned), but for now, I think it's fine, or at least not quickban worthy.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Factoring accuracy and flinch/confusion chance, Air Slash is technically the tiniest bit more powerful over the long haul,

My sleep-deprived ass just now remembered that Sheer Force makes this irrelevant. Wow.

 

[Monky25]

For transparency I will provide my reasoning for each of my votes for this voting slate

I think it’s very self-explanatory as to why I voted for a ban for the reasons brought up in this thread a million times. It trades far too well and stat checks the entire tier with its bulk allowing it to 1v1 almost the entire metagame. It trades two for one at minimum with it often cleaning games entirely with nothing breaking past it as it heals itself with Drain Punch. Terastallization further compounds this issue, as using Tera Ghost or Tera Fire allows Iron Hands to destroy common answers such as Scream Tail and Skeledirge, additionally gaining a Ground neutrality vs foes like Hippowdon with Tera Ghost and getting past it. There’s just very few Pokémon that generally check it pre-tera and Iron Hands will get a lot of opportunities to come in and boost against common Pokemon like Kleavor, Hydreigon, choice-locked Arcanine, and Meowscarada to name a few in addition to a lot more. This is a very clear-cut ban for me; Iron Hands is already absurdly powerful but its versatility in the moves and Tera types it can run allows it to get around almost every answer to it, which is just too much for me and I believe that keeping it in the tier any longer will impair its growth and development.
I voted Do not Ban on Hydreigon. I will say that I find that Hydreigon is still very strong in the metagame, but I can’t ignore that the tier has gotten faster with new Pokémon such as Galarian Zapdos, Thundurus-T, Hisuian Lilligant, and Meowscarada being great in addition to pre-home Pokemon that Hydreigon hasn’t interacted much with like Pawmot, Greninja, and Cyclizar. Hyper offense has generally been revitalized with a lot of the new threats we’ve gotten which has the potential to overwhelm Hydreigon and is a clear contrast to the bulky playstyles Substitute + Nasty Plot preys upon. Additionally, we have some new checks to Hydreigon that aren't just offensive pressure; Hisuian Goodra and Alolan Muk check Hydreigon well with Assault Vest, forcing it into Earth Power to hurt them. Tera Water Skeledirge owns Hydreigon with Unaware ignoring the boots and Torch Song bypassing the Substitute, while Quaquaval resists the Dark Pulse + Flash Cannon combo and hurts it back, with Quaquaval still being a solid enough Pokemon even post shifts. However, it’s the sheer dominance of Iron Hands that keeps Hydreigon from being truly insane to me, losing out on the benefits of Substitute or a good attack combo in Flash Cannon + Dark Pulse for Draco Meteor or Earth Power to hurt it. Even then, Iron Hand’s bulk or a nice predicted reactive Tera will still stop Hydreigon, and the simple restriction of its move slots is a huge deterrent alone. However, as we all know, Iron Hands isn’t lasting long in the tier, and Hydreigon could very well become broken in the following week since Substitute can mess with offensive checks and could be seen as a restrictive presence. Still, I cannot see Hydreigon as broken in a metagame with Iron Hands and voted Do not Ban as such.
The other Pokémon I voted to ban is Hisuian Lilligant. I think the Tera Ghost set lacks reliable counterplay with the brutal coverage its STABs + Tera Blast Ghost covers, crushing foes such as Gengar, Talonflame, Galarian Slowbro, and Tornadus-T that normally check its STAB combo. Its great speed gives it a lot more setup chances with its typing than one would think against foes such as Kleavor, Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Wo-Chien, and Zarude, boosting its Physical Defense in front of something slower to limit damage taken, not to mention Tera Ghost giving it a resistance to Poison and eliminating weaknesses to types such as Fairy, Flying, and Ice helps a lot. +1 in Defense from Victory Dance is a massive help in living priority and when setting up vs a slower foe, ultimately giving Lilligant greater leeway when it misses with Hustle. Speaking of Hustle, in conjunction with Wide Lens, it doesn’t miss that often, having roughly 90% accurate moves which isn’t that bad, meaning it’s still an insane wallbreaker that doesn’t need Leftovers or Life Orb to function as Wide Lens alone helps alleviate a huge issue. Counterplay is limited to Fat Salamence, which is not good with Speed and power being needed, Fat Moltres, Enamorus-t, and reactive Tera from stuff like Quagsire and Skeledirge. Yes, Skeledirge is an amazing and very common Pokemon. And yet, it is still only one Pokemon that can check Lilligant reliably with the others not being great, relying on Tera to beat it, or having the possibility of losing to Lilligant. I do urge readers to try this Pokémon out because it is absolutely insane and something I will be voting ban on, and should it survive this vote I will do my best to push for action in the future.
I thought this Pokémon would be dumb as shit but for now it’s balanced so I voted Do not Ban on it. I think Tera Blast is a waste because it’s a huge commitment and even then doesn’t play out ideally with the lack of luxury to have enough turns to prime itself for a sweep. It’s also very restrictive to have your tera locked in or the Pokémon ends up kinda useless. After talking about it in council, I’ve really begun to like just dual STABs and function as a trade Pokémon that can force helpful sequences to capitalize on, plus having tera flexibility with Tera Dark for more power or Tera Steel for better defensive use like resisting Bullet Punch and Extreme Speed is extremely helpful. It still has its checks in Tera Fairy Skeledirge, AV Hisuian Goodra, AV Alolan Muk, Tyranitar, Tinkaton, and Mimikyu regardless. Overall, I’ve found Tera Blast to be a waste on Goltres from my experience as a cheese user on ladder and find dual STABs to be the better set, which is something I do not consider broken at the moment, prompting me to vote Do not Ban.
I've had some changing views about this Pokémon since we actually have it. At first, I thought it was overrated garbage destined for RUBL, but now I think it’s balanced and a good part of the tier, at like a high A- viability level. Still, it’s definitely the most overrated Pokemon by far and I don’t find this Pokémon banworthy at all. It has too many factors that keep it in line between a Stealth Rock weakness requiring extensive team support featuring just ok entry hazard removal, bad defensive typing in conjunction with low speed making it vulnerable to tons of faster threats, and reliance on a choice item to do damage which makes it prediction reliant and more easier to play around. Slowbro, Slowking, Alomomola, Quagsire, Hippowdon, Donphan, and Gastrodon all handle it well enough defensively to the point where the matchup is pretty outplayable. It’s just not that crazy of a Pokémon when it’s not difficult at all to take advantage of its exploitable and outplayable traits, ending up with it being still good but not broken at all. We've seen strong breakers like this before such as Pawmot and Staraptor which ended up being fine and enough to handle so I don’t see Hisuian Arcanine as any different. This is a very easy Do not Ban vote for me.
Where do I start lol. I think this Pokémon should worry about being higher than B+ before being broken because I don’t even think it’s that good, let alone banworthy. Spore is the main scary part of it but it’s outplayable with right positioning and sacks and once that happens Breloom is left pretty vulnerable. On such a slow Pokémon, its typing doesn’t do any favors and it really needs to predict right and go out of its way to get in even to attack. Scream Tail, Salamence, Skeledirge, Talonflame, both Moltres, both Thundurus, Torn-t, Azelf, Gapdos, Gengar, Ceruledge, Glowbro, Enamorus-t, Alolan Decidueye, Mimikyu, and even more will all handle breloom well and keep it from taking over. Offensive counterplay is a very integral part of counterplay that cannot be ignored; look at Tyranitar, where with a Choice Band and Tera Dark it even overwhelms Quagsire and Hippowdon, its main switch-ins. And yet, it was still balanced due to low speed, a typing that can be exploited, and a reliance on Choice Band. My point is, Breloom is not too much different. Spore is annoying but it generally gets run over by offensive teams and it really needs to click the right move each time to make progress because otherwise it gets forced or KOed itself. And I’d argue breloom has a LOT of offensive counterplay. Another very easy Do not Ban vote for me.
The last Pokemon under inspection is Skeledirge, who I voted Do not Ban on. I think it’s an extremely nuanced Pokémon who is shown to be powerful because the meta is new and we aren’t optimizing our building. I get that it’s bulky and has great snowball potential and difficult to switch into but there’s notable flaws to it too. First, you are more often than not burning your tera on it which is big. I’ve also found to vortex it with not too much effort with momentum cores and it burns Slack Off a LOT in games. Switching into a Salamence or Moltres means you have to click Slack Off immediately which leaves you open to being exploited. We’re seeing a rise in Poison-types such as Gengar, Alolan Muk, Galarian Slowbro, and Grafaiai who can hit Skeledirge post-tera and all but Galarian Slowbro can hit it pre-tera in addition to mons that can muscle through it such as Thundurus-T, Tyranitar, and Basculegion-F. Other Pokémon and techs that give it trouble include Future Sight cores, Ceruledge, Hisuian Arcanine, Toxic Quagsire and general status ailments that burn Slack Off, Tera Fire Scizor and Maushold, Encore Tinkaton, Taunt Tornadus-T, and DD Taunt Gyarados and Tyranitar, not to mention the tons of Pokémon that affect it pre-tera. Still, please do not get me wrong at all; Skeledirge is a phenomenal and influential Pokémon in the metagame that is very potent and a likely S rank candidate. I just don’t see it as too overbearing to go immediately alongside Pokemon I find insanely strong like Iron Hands and Hisuan Lilligant, instead finding it more nuanced and less consistent lately to where I rate Meowscarada over it as a Pokémon. Can it be problematic down the road? It’s definitely possible. Right now, it’s something I would like to evaluate over UUWC pools before even considering tiering action. As of now, since I do not think Skeledirge is a problematic element in the metagame, I voted Do not Ban on it.

This is the actual last one but I’ll share my stance on :Galarian Zapdos: since it’s been talked about a fair bit here. I thought it would be dumb before the drops happened but so far I have felt it’s fine. Maybe some Bulk Up set down the road could be crazy but choice sets are fine. Choice Scarf is not bad to check but everyone knows this so I’ll talk about Choice Band. I compare it to Staraptor, who is frailer and has a Stealth Rock weakness but is ultimately stronger. Staraptor was flawed because the main move it clicked (Brave Bird) killed itself over time in addition to a weakness to Stealth Rock and the tier had enough tools to deter the beatdown from Brave Bird. Choice Band wasn’t even the best set because of its exploitable Speed, and Staraptor itself ended the pre-home metagame in C+, which is really low. Galarian Zapdos is not too different, sharing the same Speed tier as Staraptor and hitting the same Speed benchmark with its own Choice Band set that rendered Choice Band Staraptor ineffective. With Gapdos, the main move it WANTS to click is Brave Bird, as we’ve got a lot of Fighting-Type resists in the meta that deter Close Combat and makes Brave Bird the ideal click. However, Brave Bird wears down Galarian Zapdos a lot when it should be a Pokemon that is alive for a while making progress throughout the game on BO teams. In conjunction with Rocky Helmet and Stealth Rock chip, Galarian Zapdos will not be lasting as long as one would like. Base 100 Speed is also just not that fast these days, being vulnerable to a lot of fast stuff. Once again, it could be broken down the line, but comparing it to Choice Band Staraptor, who is stronger yet still got kept in line by the numerous Flying-resists and faster threats we have so far, ending up being near-unviable by the end of the pre-home metagame, means that Gapdos might not be as broken of a wallbreaker as we think. Over time we’ll see how much the bulk and Stealth Rock neutrality truly matters but for now Galarian Zapdos has felt like a balanced and honestly slightly disappointing metagame presence to me especially since I thought it would be insanely broken.

 

[Lily]

Lots of stuff has been talked about here but I just wanna make a quick post about a few cool Speed control options I've been using, since I find it's very important in the tier's current landscape to be able to outpace stuff like Meow reliably if you wanna avoid ugly endgames. Each has its own little niche that I'll highlight.


Grafaiai @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- U-turn

Graf is fun because it's pretty much unpunishable with the lack of Poison-types around. Poison Touch owns and can really annoy things like Dirge switching into you, and critically Grafaiai absorbs Toxic Spikes itself. You can run Switcheroo > Low Kick if you want but I found that Low Kick was nice to revenge kill stuff like Hydrei and there was realistically very little clicking Switcheroo in a metagame offensive as this one. Also outspeeds Lilligant which is crucial.


Meowscarada @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Play Rough

This is as fast as you're realistically getting. Meow is speedy enough to handle boosting sweepers all day long, and has the bonus of Flower Trick; this is helpful for letting you crit through a Terastalised Lilligant's Defense boosts, and is also just a strong move in general. Play Rough is a good way to revenge kill DD Dragons if you hate those, but Switcheroo, Low Kick, and (Toxic) Spikes are also fine options. Meow doesn't provide much defensively though which is a shame.


Azelf @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn

Azelf is fun. With 8 Atk you always OHKO 0/4 Meow even with a Timid nature so you can preserve your defenses; that may seem silly on a Pokemon like Azelf but you'd be surprised how resilient this little asshole can be. Not a whole lot actually OHKOs it, and with Tera Electric you don't even have any weaknesses to exploit; it's also handy for greedy GMolts, which I've found are actually often slower than me at +2 since people seem to really like investing in bulk.


Lycanroc-Dusk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge

I tried this out on a whim and was really impressed with its performance. No other scarfer comes close to matching Lycanroc's raw power, so unlike most of the above scarfers it also happens to dumpster offense since they generally aren't well equipped for a fast strong CC - for reference you have an 83% chance to 2HKO it with Close Combat straight up. Skeledirge also wants nothing to do with you, so the most common CC immunity isn't rlly a huge concern. Other than that it does standard scarfer things, outspeeds +2 Teapot, +1 Lilligant etc - also has priority for GMolt, but if you don't care about that then feel free to go with Stone Edge.

---

Council vote results will be out tomorrow, so stay tuned for that! Just wanted to make a fun post in the meantime :D

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Gonna give my 2 cents on the current mons being looked at and also wanna bring up some mons that I think should also be looked out for. As a disclaimer, I'd consider myself to be much more aggressive with calling for a quickban when I think something is overpowered rather than waiting longer, so expect me to want to ban a lot of these.

lol fuck this shit, it still 1v3s teams while burned. Just like pre-home, this is a sweeper that has the longevity to apply pressure to its counters throughout a game and, if you play it slow, it can be really hard to keep it at bay in the long term. It had a bunch of "counters" pre-home and has a few more now like Skeledirge, but really, you can't ever be safe against it. It can still manage to sweep against teams stacking 3 answers just because it can last so long. It also pairs incredibly well with Wish and Healing Wish which have been quite notable in the past in this meta and having an abuser even stronger than the likes of TTar or Scizor is quite insane. It also has new potential support in the form of Heal Bell from Blissey which could allow it to tank a burn to take out a Talonflame or Moltres for example, though as I've said before, this mon functions while burned anyway so it doesn't really need it. Would say QB.

It's not quite as polarizing as it was when it got banned pre-home thanks to the tier generally being a bit faster and stronger, making setting up a Sub or NP a bit harder. It's felt pretty hard to answer it so far though, mostly because knowing what it's about to do seems very difficult. It can Dark Pulse Skeledirge on the switch rather than Substitue for example and from there, threaten a Flash Cannon KO if you tera. It can also come from variance in its moveslots, if it's running the infamous Sub+NP set, it can only run 2 attacking moves, but between Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Fire Blast, Earth Power and Flash Cannon, it can be hard to pin down what your best option to beat it may be. The set variety can also extend to its Tera type as I've been surprised by types like Fire and left with a rather big hole in my team as a result. Oh and it could also just nuke you with Specs on the switch, though I haven't seen that yet. Most importantly though, this is the kind of mon where, a lot of the time, you'll need to bait out its tera in order for something to beat it, but it can really mess you up if you have trouble doing that properly. In general, its unpredictability combined with its threat level is kind of crazy for me, I would rather see this QB'd.

I dislike how much offensive mon this chokes out. Between its high bulk, burn spreading and Unaware, it can make building offensive cores quite difficult and might make you worse off against other defensive presences just because of how much you have to account for this. This is especially bad for physical attackers as, aside from CB users, you likely won't be breaking through it and even if you attempt to beat Will-O-Wisp with Substitute, it won't stop Dirge due to Torch Song bypassing Sub. I haven't had too much trouble countering it so far since I spam Morning Sun Arcanine-Hisui, though I can totally see how it could be tough between Wisp+Hex and the SpAtk boosting of Torch Song making walling it long term seem like a hassle. Sure, something like Cyclizar might not take too much damage, but for something to counter it, keep in mind it also has to prevent it from snowballing with Torch Song which a lot of defensive mons cannot do. Even in the case of Arcanine, it could absolutely adapt by using Earth Power which just goes to show how difficult countering it can be. In general, I haven't felt pressured by it too much, but I've also been spamming Arcanine-Hisui and mostly specially-oriented teams offensively, so it may skew my opinion of it. Probably suspect, but wouldn't mind if it was QB'd.

Tbh this would be completely fine if Spore wasn't so stupid. As of right now, it can be pretty hard to counter between Spore putting something out of commission and Rock Tomb taking out Flying types. That being said, it seems like Grass types are less popular currently and a few of them such a both Decidueye forms and Iron Leaves can be pretty effective answers. Even without those though, its bulk and speed make handling it not that bad, would just be nice if Glowbro didn't have to deal with Sleep, it'd be such an effective answer. DNB, maybe keep an eye on it as meta develops, don't think it'll be needed though.

A lot of the same issues Breloom has applies to this. However, Lilligant's coverage is much worse than Loom's Rock Tomb and no Spore is not great. As a result, it can feel like it can never find a way through against teams stacking pseudo-answers such as Glowbro, Enamorus-T, Dirge and even Talon. That being said, I haven't played against it that much and it can still hit really hard. DNB, prob will stay fine.

I haven't seen much of this mon, but I don't like how cheesy it is. Similarly to Hydreigon, it can be a pain to kill between its base typing and its potential to Tera and, in that time, it can setup and become really hard to answer. I've also seen less Tyranitar and Tinkaton usage, so dealing with its dual STAB is not especially easier not to mention it can break through them with Tera Blast. Flinches and Confusion are also a pretty big factor when trying to answer it and, if we compare it to Gyarados which was pretty heavily disliked pre-home in part due to Waterfall flinching, Moltres not only has higher odds of getting a flinch with Fiery Wrath, but its Tera type and bulk generally make it harder to kill than Gyarados was due to Moltres having more Tera options. It also has more set variety which allows it to choose its counters. Again, I haven't played against it too much, but it has felt very difficult to deal with the few times I've played against it. Probably suspect, could be a QB though.

Wtf is this doing on there lmao. This typically needs Tera and some kind of chip to get through Hippo and Quag which can be difficult to get since those like running Boots. Even with that, it's kind of a one trick pony and, if you really need, you can easily catch a Head Smash with a Tera Ground or Fighting and just kill it since it's pretty predictable. It also naturally gets chipped very quickly if hazards are kept up unless it's running Boots which isn't at all hard to switch into. It also can just miss and that's so sad. The big thing that stands out to me is that it might become more of a threat if you spam mons like Skeledirge and Talonflame that give it tons of setup opportunity. I can't think of too many other pokemon that give it such opportunities since it has so many weaknesses it can easily by an Enamorus Earth Power if it tries finding a switch-in opportunity against it for example. Anyway I guess I'll share the set I've been using since it's rather useful, but first: DNB.

Boots Utility

Arcanine-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Rock Head
Tera Type: Normal / Water?
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Extreme Speed / Stealth Rock
This still maintains a lot of the threat level of Arcanine with Head Smash, but since Fire/Rock offers some nice resists, I figured I'd actually make use of them. This can notably switch into Skeledirge, but should also be useful against some Flying and Fairy types, though you have to watch out for coverage. I've found that Arcanine can very often land an important burn on a Rock resistance such as Quagsire, Hippowdon or Iron Hands which makes them much easier to deal with for your teammates. Morning Sun is important to maintain your defensive utility. Last slot is either used for Extreme Speed which is useful for revenge-killing various faster foes or Stealth Rock which I don't like as much, but you get many opportunities to set them with the switches you force with Head Smash. At first, I was worried that Head Smash PP might be an issue especially if it's your only attacking move, but games aren't too long and you're using a different move more often than not so it's rarely an issue. I hope you try it out, I've been enjoying it.

Now, for a few mons which I think could've been included in this slate of mons under inspection, though idt either of them should be quickbanned already.

A lot of people have been using Boots and Scarf from what I've seen which isn't too threatening. However, I've been running around with CB and it's been rather crazy. First of all, it's a very good lead as its speed tier is near unmatched since pokemon such as Talonflame, Weavile and Kilowattrel have been dropping in popularity. Its huge damage output also forces a lot of mons out as certain frail offensive mons are in one-shot range of its STABs even without a super-effective hit, though that doesn't matter much since Grass+Dark actually hits a lot of stuff super-effectively. Furthermore, there's next to no drawback to Knock Off and U-Turn; they'll do great damage to most neutral targets and, if your opponent is switching, they can't really win anything in that interaction. It's also really hard to wall, even stuff you perceive as a counter such as Tinkaton or Enamorus-Therian can be crippled badly by Knock Off and it has room for coverage such as Thunder Punch and Play Rough that can be difficult to avoid a 2HKO from even when neutral. Enamorus itself can't take 2 Play Roughs even with maximum HP, it'll need to cut into its SpAtk and Speed investment to dodge a 2HKO. From what I've used of it, there haven't really been situations where choosing which move to use is difficult with Meowscarada, Knock Off and U-Turn provide very strong and consistent advantage that your opponent may have trouble to keep up with. I think, in general, teams struggle a lot to find a switchin to Banded Flower Trick/Knock/Turn/Play Rough and the ease with which it chooses its move is crazy. Anyway I can understand why it may not seem too bad among the many strong threats in the metagame currently, but I believe it can be extremely powerful due to how much utility it carries with its wallbreaking options.

This is kind of a strange one to bring up for me right now since the metagame is so offensive, but this seems incredibly good at breaking down defensive cores. Like Dirge kinda handles it, maybe Scream Tail, but that's extremely unpopular right now, but besides that, it's horrible. Moonblast+Earth Power is so hard to switch into off of 135 base SpAtk and, if the meta had issues handling Fairies before, it'll certainly have issues handling one with such high SpAtk and good coverage. Earth Power slams Tink far too hard to handle it long term and most defensive mons will be overwhelmed by Moonblast's raw power or Calm Mind, especially if Enamorus is running Draining Kiss. Overall, somewhat held back by the offensive meta, but it's very very hard to answer from what I've played of it.

Anyway if you've made it this far, here's a team https://pokepast.es/7dbeda8e55908edc this also forces me to build some more, so please use it and cteam it.

 

[Jonbot]

What are everyone’s thoughts on goodra-h? I’ve been using the set below which has worked great for my low ladder arse but I feel that it has much more potential especially with iron hands being sent back to bl.

@ Expert Belt
Ability: Sap Sipper
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

 

[Feliburn]

I was reading the posts here and the Under Inspection thread, and I gotta say, I feel like people are sleeping a bit on Meowscarada. It offers a lot of utility as a fast spiker with momentum, Knock Off and coverage for a lot of the brokens, but what I've found to be insane about this mon is the damage output CB sets offer. The combination of CB Flower Trick, Knock Off and Play Rough just dismantles most of the mons available in the tier. You can even run Sucker Punch as a way to revenge kill stuff but Play Rough has been super nice coverage from my limited experience. I understand why people would shift their attention towards Breloom and Lilligant, but I personally believe this mon to be a step above those 2, might be a me thing only tho.

Small Skeledirge comment: I really like what this mon brings to the table. Defensive options are honestly really weird ever since I started playing UU, Tinkaton and Wo Chien felt like a step above the others in terms of progress making and overall durability (in the older meta), and Skeledirge feels like it's on that level and a bit beyond cause of how solid its one set is. Let's not forget this is a mon weak to both Knock Off and hazards, so the meta becomes how well you can punish Skeledirge for just existing, and most of the time it will tera into a Fairy and get bopped by coverage, or suddenly becomes weak to tera fire Scizor and Tinkaton ROFL. I'm not sure if it's a healthy presence or not, but I really really enjoy the tier because of it.

Kelavor is fantastic. Legit one of the best additions to the generation as a whole. It never clicked with me how weird it was to bring a team without the move Stealth Rock because Stone Axe was basically my setter (90%) of the time. Scarf sets are cool because of this because u become the first ever choiced setter that does not become abusable or passive for trying to get them up. It's also a solid pivot and Sharpness boosted X-Scissor hit insanely hard.

Sleeper picks that people should try to explore more because they aren't terrible: Regidrago and Enamorus are also 2 mons that feel super solid and scary to handle. Regidrago has the broken dragon boosted moves, tera steel tera blast and random Earth Power for the steels. Idk if people run that but I'm sure it has potential. Enamorus just has godlike bulk and damage output. Set up sets are really tricky for me because of defensive tera options. These are 2 mons that just make me feel uneasy whenever I see them on preview because of all the random possibilities they bring in a tera metagame.

Lastly, I'm p sure terrain HO should pick up. The amount of offensive killers available plus Hawlucha and stuff just make me feel like it should become the more popular HO path people should be taking.

I think way too many mons deserve to be talked about, cause all the mons that dropped are genuinely cool and unique, but that would take a while. Most of the mons in the Under Inspection thread feel super solid and it's appropriate they are the first ones being looked at, with Hydra & Skeledirge feeling a bit above the others.

Zapdos-Galar will always be broken in any meta, that mon will never not be annoying and I hate it.

Been enjoying all the UU gaming these past months and sorry if this post makes little sense, I just felt like throwing out some thoughts I had in this last week of playing new UU.

 

[Askov]

here is a list of mons that can do decently to excellently vs meowscarada

defensively:

here is a list of mons that can help with meowscarada offensively:

here are some other good ways to beat cb meowscarada:

- stealth rock
- rocky helmet
- flame body
- spikes
- toxic spikes
- sticky web
- protect

meowscarada is a good pokemon but its not a broken pokemon. i hope this list helps you all in your building endeavours.

Credits to LilyAC for this compendium

 

[Lily]

i have threadbanned askov.

 

[Bice]

here is a list of mons that can do decently to excellently vs meowscarada

defensively:

here is a list of mons that can help with meowscarada offensively:

here are some other good ways to beat cb meowscarada:

- stealth rock
- rocky helmet
- flame body
- spikes
- toxic spikes
- sticky web
- protect

meowscarada is a good pokemon but its not a broken pokemon. i hope this list helps you all in your building endeavours.

Credits to LilyAC for this compendium

i know this is a copypasta but who tf invited bisharp, staraptor, heracross, kilowattrel, and weavile :skull:

 

[Melt Gibson]

So, I've been rigorously playing and building, and I want to highlight a mon that a lot of other people have talked about as well and that I find to be an exceptionally strong team player.


The benefits that Grassy Terrain provides to so many other strong mons in the current meta are very hard to ignore in the builder. Want to mitigate EQ damage for the likes of Tinkaton, Alolan Muk, Galarian Slowbro, Skeledirge, and so much more? You got it. Want to boost the power of Grass moves, including Grass Knots from Tornadus-T, Thundurus, and more? Flower Trick from Meowscarada? Your own Wood Hammer? You got it. Want to give your team the benefits of passive recovery, so long as they're touching the ground? You got it. Want to enable Hawlucha properly? You got it.

Grassy Surge allows Rillaboom to function very well as a cheerleader for the rest of the team, especially in conjunction with high damage output through Wood Hammer, good coverage, pivoting opportunities with U-Turn, access to Knock Off, and other supplemental support moves such as Leech Seed and Fake Out. This also allows it to fit on a large variety of teams. Balance cores with Alolan Muk or Galarian Slowbro, offense builds with Unburden Hawlucha, or even stall builds with the likes of Skeledirge are all possible. If you haven't yet, I definitely recommend giving the monkey a try.

 

[ViableFries]

Want to boost the power of Grass moves, including Grass Knots from Tornadus-T, Thundurus, and more?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Grassy Terrain actually boosts the power of Grass Knot coming from non-grounded Pokemon like Torn-T and Thundurus.

 

[UnusualBoy]

I read somewhere in twitter that with the huge affluence of fire types in the tier, they think Scizor could drop to RN lol, as if that's gonna happen... if anything he may lose some steam but it will rise back up, he's Scizor after all.

 

[Pabloaram]

I read somewhere in twitter that with the huge affluence of fire types in the tier, they think Scizor could drop to RN lol, as if that's gonna happen... if anything he may lose some steam but it will rise back up, he's Scizor after all.

Watch out Scizor being S tier in a month

 

[Melt Gibson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that Grassy Terrain actually boosts the power of Grass Knot coming from non-grounded Pokemon like Torn-T and Thundurus.

You're right, I forgot when I made the post if it needed to be the user or the target that was grounded LOL