SV UU Metagame Discussion

[TheTemplarCo]

Would a Air Ballon Tera bug Ceruledge set work in the UU meta?

I’ve been using it since Home came out in OU because of:
1. The good fire types and fire move users (Heatran, Cinderace, Enamorus, Volcanion, Walking Wake)
2. The amount of Earth Power users and good Ground types (Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Landorus-T)

But I am not accustomed to the UU meta and was wondering if it would also work here?

 

[Jonbot]

Would a Air Ballon Tera bug Ceruledge set work in the UU meta?

But I am not accustomed to the UU meta and was wondering if it would also work here?

I am also new to uu as a refugee from ou but I’m gonna go with nope. The presence of kleavor, torn-t and quaquaval will likely make the meta hostile to a tera bug set. I would personally just run tera ghost + sd and weak armour as a mon that could cheese some games but I don’t think it’s that good to begin with.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Just run tera grass to be resistant to eq and water and not suddenly weak to rocks


Also yeah it might have a niche with its special bulk

 

[Bice]

Would a Air Ballon Tera bug Ceruledge set work in the UU meta?

I’ve been using it since Home came out in OU because of:
1. The good fire types and fire move users (Heatran, Cinderace, Enamorus, Volcanion, Walking Wake)
2. The amount of Earth Power users and good Ground types (Ting-Lu, Great Tusk, Landorus-T)

But I am not accustomed to the UU meta and was wondering if it would also work here?

Having both Air Balloon and Tera Bug on the same set is redundant and leaves you vulnerable to Stealth Rock. You're honestly better off running Heavy Duty Boots on Ceruledge. Both Bug and Grass are valid tera types, but I'd say I prefer Grass rn due to its resistance to Water and not being weak to Rock. If you really hate Quagsire and Gastrodon you could even fit Tera Blast over Taunt, though relying on it probably isn't a good idea

 

[T-Bolt]

Regidrago @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dragon's Maw
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 32 Def / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Energy
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power
- Tera Blast

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 435-513 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

When you click Dragon energy and delete pokemon that aren't supposed to die in one hit, it's the most satisfying feeling. Needs some support to make it work but it's a very fun pokemon to use. Speed investment to outspeed max speed scizor/H-braviary and the rest can be thrown in Def or SpDef for some survivability.

Kleavor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Axe
- X-Scissor
- Tailwind
- Close Combat

Lead Kleavor but with tailwind. Do this right and you can get 2-3 turns of tailwind for the next pokemon after setting up rocks with stone axe. There's no shortage of nukemons in the tier (Regidrago, Adaptability basculegion, H-Arcanine) that appreciate the extra speed so I've found this pretty useful.

 

[MrE]

H-Arcanine is straight up oppressive imo, almost nothing in the tier wants to switch into it and if it's scarf it's really hard to revenge kill whilst band is tsar bomba level nuke.

 

[Corperate n]

So I've been laddering a bunch and mostly enjoying myself, the meta is a lot of fun. However, it's become very clear to me that Iron Hands is broken to the point that it warrants a quickban. The problem is pretty similar to when it was banned before, which is that it wins the 1v1 against almost the entire tier, heals back up in the process thanks to drain punch, and repeats. I'd argue that the meta favors this mon even more right now than it did before, just because of how offensive it is, and the way that many of the other good/common mons like tink, meow, hydreigon, and kleavor are just asking for it to come in and start attacking.

There is some defensive counter play of course, but it's way too specific in my opinion, and often just loses anyway.

Skeledirge outspeeds hands by a decent margin if neither are invested, threatens with wisp, and ignores SD. However, Iron Hands simply needs to slap on earthquake and invest 132 EVs in speed to outrun 0 speed dirge, 2 things it can afford to do. Skeledirge could try to creep sets like this, but max defense sets already have a reasonable chance to be 2hkod:
252+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 182-216 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
Hands doesn't even need to predict, since it fits substitute on most sets anyway, protecting it from wisp. Another problem is that skeledirge doesnt even want to run max defense. Most are investing quite a bit of spdef to be able to take on threats like Gmolt when terad, which makes it an even worse check than the above calc would suggest. Once Skeledirge teras into a fairy type, it becomes a reliable check, but asking it to do so is a big cost when you still dont kill it, allowing hands to stick around for the rest of the match anyway.

The hippowdon of last meta loses 1vs1 if it switches in, as +2 drain punch 2hkos more often than not. Like dirge, Hippo needs to invest a lot more physdef than it wants to to avoid the 2hko from Iron Hands. The issue is that even if you do invest, hands is happy to run a tera like flying to help against ground types, which lets it completely bully hippo and other grounds, especially when paired with speed investment. Hippo just isnt reliable enough to be sufficient counterplay.

There are a couple other ways people try to check this mon but theyre all flawed like these two and im tired of writing. You can also try banking on hands having no electric move but thats a dangerous game to play when you might simply lose a mon. ban pls

 

[Liz Angeles]

So I've been laddering a bunch and mostly enjoying myself, the meta is a lot of fun. However, it's become very clear to me that Iron Hands is broken to the point that it warrants a quickban. The problem is pretty similar to when it was banned before, which is that it wins the 1v1 against almost the entire tier, heals back up in the process thanks to drain punch, and repeats. I'd argue that the meta favors this mon even more right now than it did before, just because of how offensive it is, and the way that many of the other good/common mons like tink, meow, hydreigon, and kleavor are just asking for it to come in and start attacking.

There is some defensive counter play of course, but it's way too specific in my opinion, and often just loses anyway.

Skeledirge outspeeds hands by a decent margin if neither are invested, threatens with wisp, and ignores SD. However, Iron Hands simply needs to slap on earthquake and invest 132 EVs in speed to outrun 0 speed dirge, 2 things it can afford to do. Skeledirge could try to creep sets like this, but max defense sets already have a reasonable chance to be 2hkod:
252+ Atk Iron Hands Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 182-216 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
Hands doesn't even need to predict, since it fits substitute on most sets anyway, protecting it from wisp. Another problem is that skeledirge doesnt even want to run max defense. Most are investing quite a bit of spdef to be able to take on threats like Gmolt when terad, which makes it an even worse check than the above calc would suggest. Once Skeledirge teras into a fairy type, it becomes a reliable check, but asking it to do so is a big cost when you still dont kill it, allowing hands to stick around for the rest of the match anyway.

The hippowdon of last meta loses 1vs1 if it switches in, as +2 drain punch 2hkos more often than not. Like dirge, Hippo needs to invest a lot more physdef than it wants to to avoid the 2hko from Iron Hands. The issue is that even if you do invest, hands is happy to run a tera like flying to help against ground types, which lets it completely bully hippo and other grounds, especially when paired with speed investment. Hippo just isnt reliable enough to be sufficient counterplay.

There are a couple other ways people try to check this mon but theyre all flawed like these two and im tired of writing. You can also try banking on hands having no electric move but thats a dangerous game to play when you might simply lose a mon. ban pls

Don't really oppose banning hands but I don't really agree with a lot of what you said here, particularly in the paragraph about skeledirge. I think iron hands that runs max attack and significant speed investment really misses a lot on bulk. Most of the sets I've faced on ladder seem to hit somewhere around the 96+ attack range and are slower than dirge, although I'd personally run enough speed for dirge with some creep. I also don't think sub is good at all, lets you run something other than tera fire but I think 3 attack is pretty much always better because fishing for para with tpunch is a big part of what lets it beat it's checks in longer games and you don't give your opponent 25% of your health for free. I think quag skeledirge and scream tail all take it on pretty well, quag in particular owns 3 attack sets although i guess sub can give it trouble. I also don't think dirge not wanting to run a lot of physical defense is an argument for hands being broken, I've pretty much always ran close to max phys def to take it on and dealt with stuff like gmolt in other ways. I could just as easily say gmolt is broken because dirge wants to run physical defense for iron hands, although i think gmolt is generally easier to manage through other mons. I just think hands kind of owns if you don't have dirge quag or scream tail on your team and that's probably really unhealthy but I don't see it as being particularly great at breaking through any of these.

 

[Melt Gibson]

Alright, now that I've had some time to play the meta, I wanna drop my opinions on what I've been seeing a decent amount of people claim to be broken or worth looking at.

Absolutely, 100%, without a shadow of a doubt quickban worthy. Back when Iron Hands first dropped to UU, it very quickly garnered ire from a large portion of the player base due to its ability to tank through absurdly powerful hits from the tier's strongest breakers and dish out ludicrous damage in return, often claiming two to three kills over the course of the game regardless of set and sometimes even functioning as a win condition. Nothing has really changed! It's a little less blatantly absurd due to the jump in power level, but it's still able to power through most of the defensive checks available and has adapted to the new climate scarily fast with tech such as Tera Fire to beat Skeledirge. The only genuine, true, foolproof answer to Iron Hands is Quagsire, which while very good in its own right, can not be slotted into every playstyle. Please send him back home.

Very torn on this one, because while it absolutely has the potential to just snowball and win games, it's not nearly as unbeatable and doesn't put the tier in a chokehold in quite the same way Iron Hands does. Having a non passive Unaware user provides a lot for the tier, especially in these early days where anything at all is possible. Not saying that, if it were to be broken, providing something to the tier makes it not broken, but I do still think that it's a point worth making in a nuanced discussion about Skeledirge. Torch Song is very powerful, especially with the general lack of phasing available, and can get out of hand extremely quickly when coupled with Fire/Ghost's excellent offensive matchups. It's really fucking fat too, especially when packing Will-O Wisp, and has hard recovery in Slack Off as well. WispHex Dirge also allows even bulkier variants to still hit with considerable power while crippling physical breakers who don't wish to expend their Tera. However, it does have a few notable issues. Cyclizar gives it a rough time, being able to reliably pivot around it and cripple it with Knock Off. Coupled with hazards, this makes putting lasting dents in the croc a much more manageable task. It has to expend its Tera to not get absolutely dunked on by the plentiful strong Dark-type breakers in the tier and in doing so loses momentum in other matchups. I feel though that the argument is absolutely present that Skeledirge warps the tier around itself, and I do think it is worthy of a suspect test.

Yeah, no, y'all need to get better. This thing is not at ALL difficult to play around once you know all of the tricks it has to offer. It can't really afford to run boots, so therefore takes 25% from rocks when it comes in thanks to its shit defensive typing. It's also faced with the conundrum of choosing between Scarf to make up for its rather lacking Speed, or Band to clench important kills that it could miss out on otherwise. It definitely has the potential to get several kills and force a one to one trade if need be, but so did Staraptor (which has all the same problems I listed here) and that's RUBL right now. Very easy mon to limit in practice if you're not a total dumbass around it. No action.

This actually has a few things that can call it out and stop it from winning games as soon as it gets a Substitute up! I'm still very wary of it, wouldn't be opposed to seeing a suspect test in the future, maybe, but it is noticeably less stupid compared to when we banned it. It's still undeniably strong, the typing alone threatens a lot and it's still a premier abuser of Tera thanks to Levitate, and Nasty Plot makes it hit like a train, but I get the feeling Hydreigon might be able to stay this time seeing as we have actual Fairies and things that can make aggressive callouts on Tera Steel.

Very very strong breaker, the speed tier is excellent and 100% crits with Flower Trick are a little stupid, but I think we have the technology to keep it in check for now. A few bans/tests down the line though, and I do think the kitty has potential to get very silly and may warrant action in the future.

Haven't seen it much, so no real defined opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if this thing ended up being horseshit enough to warrant action.

 

[udongirl]

my thoughts of this metagame:

Banworthy


You can't stop this mon if you are not using wo chien or blissey. Its stabs are really difficult to resist and powerful. Its bulk is also fine. It may be suspected.


One of the strongest offensive threats in this meta. Iron hands has more bulk and utility but zapdos is much more difficult to stop.

Suspectable


The best pokemon in this tier. Torch Song is very hard to wall and its defensive stats and typing is great. But imo only max spdef dirge needs more physical bulk even if iron hands go.


Very very strong but it is safe unless skeledirge is in this tier. We also have old counters like scream tail and quagsire so hands needs more time to see.

Overrated



I don't see this mon more than I thought. The main problem of this mon is you have to give up stabs or agility if you want terablast.


Idt its broken so far. Hands counders hydreigon so hard and uu speed line becomes much faster than pre-home. Can be broken if some threats (mainly zapdos and hands) are banned.

:enamorous-therian:
Stopped by encore unless you don't invest spA

Underrated


The most underrated pokemon in home meta. Typing, bulk, coverage, and power are all great and actually it checks so many things (greninja skeledirge salamence etc). Its lack of recovery is easy to care because we have great wish passer and goodra synagize pretty well. I believe this mon can be one of the most important pokemon in uu metagame.

 

[Bice]

Here's a mon that has managed to evade ban discussions by virtue of all the flashier stuff in the tier rn:

Breloom continues to do the same shit it does in OU, but arguably even better thanks to the lack of counterplay for Spore and Technician-boosted Bullet Seeds and Mach Punches. The closest thing to counterplay at the moment is Skeledirge (who is basically Spore bait) and Enamorus, neither of which want to get bent by Rock Tomb. There's also other bulky Grass-types, but only Chesnaught (who isn't doing too hot rn) wants to take a CC to the face. While The Loom struggles with 4MSS, it's still quite unpredictable. Is your Tink gonna get nailed by Close Combat? Can you send in Enamorus safely or are you gonna get bent by Rock Tomb? Are you gonna get Spored after you try to OHKO it or is it gonna Bullet Seed you into oblivion as you attempt to play carefully around it? This isn't even getting into potential Tera options, Swords Dance, or Grassy Terrain support from Rillaboom. Fighting this thing is like eating a Death Cap mushroom; it almost always results in an agonizing death.

I'm also mentioning Hisuian Lilligant because A.) I've done another 180 on her now that people have realized that Chlorophyll sets are garbage, and B.) she does very similar stuff to Breloom, albeit exchanging predictability and accuracy for Speed and the ability to better utilize Tera. Being Tera reliant does suck, but she hits like a truck after just one Victory Dance, and her trolly speed tier makes it hard for conventional scarfers like Gapdos to outspeed her at +1. Even Skeledirge, arguably her best check at the moment, isn't safe, as with Tera Rock or Ghost Skeledirge is often forced to Tera only to be threatened with the high-crit Leaf Blade. Please get rid of these stupid Grass/Fightings thanks

 

[Easter Bliss]

Still have a number of mons left in the tier to explore but thought it was worth leaving my thoughts on some of the mons in the early metagame regardless.

New Meta Staples

Meowscarada

Meowscarada :3

I think Meowscarada is just absurd and doesn't really have any solid long-term answer (Outside of PDef slither and roost lucha which you can snipe w/ PR.) Speed tier is absurd and puts it ahead of almost all of the unboosted metagame barring only a handful mons like Talon . The utility from Knock Off is absurd on an offensive Grass and in general the mon has so many stupidly spammable moves w/ the aforementioned Knock, U-Turn, and Flower Trick. There's no lack of variance w/ it either being able to be ran choiced, as a lead, hdb pivot, etc. with a stupidly deep coverage and utility movepool. We're still early into the new meta but I think Meow is absurd and imo is top 3 minimum (arguably best mon tbh).

Skeledirge

Skeledirge

Another former OU starter that has gone on to establish itself as one of the defining parts of the metagame. This one is a fair bit controversial and there's even a fair bit of pro-ban sentiment for it. Personally I don't think it's broken and I've found offensively pressuring it to be fairly reasonable. The pre-tera type is also a tad exploitable in terms of weaknesses coupled w/ a relatively slow speed tier while also being deathly afraid of Knock/Trick. You can't even really take knock super well if you've tera'd away the rocks weakness cause spikes are everywhere and you get mauled by hazard pressure, even just neutral rocks force you to click Slack way more than you're comfortable with. That said, I think it's also reasonable to be a bit weary of it given that it really doesn't have actual switch-ins because burn is a bitch to handle and Torch Song means you can't play passively around it. Ultimately we'll just have to wait and see w/ UUWC but as it stands I'm in favour of no action against the Dirge.

Iron Hands

Iron Hands

It's probably broken and also probably getting banned sooner than later. Has the same raw bulk and power it used to, still trades like nobody else, still doing the same things it did when we initially banned it. For what it's worth we did gain some counterplay w/ Dirge but we also lost Shocks and a number of them have moved on to run Tera Fire anyways. I don't think it's absurdly broken but it's pretty dumb and restrictive either way so odds are it goes, won't really miss it either.

Hydreigon

Hydreigon

Hands + a generally faster meta is somewhat worse for it but honestly I don't see Hands staying and I don't see this staying either. Even right now I think the mon is in a fairly volatile place. It has a number of cool traits but I really can't see it staying after the dust settles a bit. It leaving is also pretty fantastic for Dirge as it's one of the cleaner swap-ins (granted wisp is still pretty annoying) and can put up a fair amount of pressure in return if not forcing the immediate Tera, so we'll have to see how that develops.

Strong Picks

Galarian Slowbro

Glowbro

I love him and I think he's great rn. Colbur has been pretty nice, shores up the Meowscarada MU a decent bit. In general though just the typing + defensive capabilities + regen are awesome right now. Hella good mon and generally just feels good into a lot rn. Rillaboom is also a cool pairing cause Glowbro w/o the EQ weak can be a really nasty mon, same applies to Skeledirge .

Rillaboom

Annihilape

Rillas actually quite nice IMO. Knock + Turn + Super strong grass STAB w/ decent stats are all decent on their own (Banded hits stupid hard btw), but what makes the mon rlly good is obv the ability to set up G-Terrain. Terrain is just so good for so many mons and inflates the longevity of a lot, in particular Glowbro , Tinkaton , and Skeledirge have felt like particularly strong pairings w/ it. That's also to say nothing of Unburden/Grassy Seed stuff which also has a fair bit of potential. Haven't rlly played around w/ Unburden enough yet though so can't speak to how good it actually is.

Female Basculegion

Basculegion

It hits soooo hard... Choiced or even sub lefties, could probably even get away w/ agility, the mon is a nuke. It's a pretty straight-forward breaker but its super fun to use and feels insanely strong rn. It has decent bulk with a pretty cool typing as well giving it some decent entry points and even the ability to spinblock once in a pinch. Speed tier + predicting around cyclizars can be minor nuisances but overall I'd say it's still a hella good breaker rn. Male is a dumpster fire tho.

Hisuian Arcanine

Arcanine-Hisui

It hits soooo hard... I've seen some people overhype him a tad, but he's still a really fun breaker and a pretty potent offensive presence. Definitely a flawed mon in more ways than one with a crippling rocks weakness and awkward defensive profile, but we have a solid pool of pivots to bring it in to click buttons. Tera Normal ESpeed is a cool form of priority although nothing too crazy as a Tera user. Being able to ditch the rocks weakness can be quite nice if you need more opportunities to break though. Overall an appreciated addition to the tier as a super potent breaker.

Slowking

Chilly Reception Bot

On the subject of slow pivots, critically acclaimed pivot bot Slowking is back. Slowkings a fun mon, Chilly Recep owns, overall a good enabler for a lot of frailer breakers we have on hand. Meowscarada can be a tad annoying as it can kind of click w/e in front of you if it doubles in or comes in on an Fsight. That said, it's not like Meow is free into you as Twaves a valuable option rn to cripple those types of offensive switch-ins (While also being a nice form of speed control to help out the breakers that Slowking likes to pivot into.) I prefer the Bros in a vacuum as defensive mons, but Slowking has a unique and valuable niche in its own right.

Stuff that's Still Good
Honestly? Most mons that were good in old UU are still doing pretty fine. But just for the sake of highlighting a few:

Scizor

Scizor

At a surface level, Scizor might seem a little suspect in a Dirge meta. In practice though it's still a demon. Big thing is that the crocodile often has to Tera to check the things it wants to, with a solid number of them running Tera Fairy. The problem being that if you do, you can get hard punished by Scizor. In other words, Dirge can be forced into a rather annoying spot. Diet Knock Off w/ Itemless Thief is also kinda valid rn. Completely crippling Dirge can be huge in a lot of MUs and you can basically take it out of the game super early on. Even if you don't thief into Dirge specifically, you can usually make good progress by snatching something's boots or lefties and cutting into their longevity (usually one of your checks which is still good.) BP is also still just an omega threat and invaluable priority into a lot. We're notably seeing a hell of a lot less Mence rn (To be fair that may not remain the case for long) making Scizor endgames extremely scary if you can just get around Dirge (Which again, you can annoy with teammates or teching on thief.)

Slowbro

Slowbro

We have Glowbro now, but I think Slowbro is still fine and perfectly comfortable doing what it used to do. Most notably you have a match up into the still evil Gyarados and a bit more leeway into H-RK9 . To be fair though it def does have some annoyances like being annoyed more by Meow , Zarude and the U-Turn Weakness making stuff like G-Zap harder to properly scout. When all is said and done though I definitely think he still has a workable place in the metagame and a few advantages over his Poison counterpart.

Gyarados

cringe

cringe cringe cringe. I think you could actually argue that Gyara benefited from the home drops. Skeledirge gets abused pretty badly by Taunt, Choice Locked RK9 can be forced into really annoying positions where Blitz is basically unclickable because Gyara can just come in and DD after, Locked Meowscarada is a set up opportunity w/ Tera flying, Slowbro-G being in the tier by default means less of Kanto Slowbro , and there's a lot less Wo-Chien running around. I'll never find this mon cool cause of the Serene Grace Waterfalls though.

Cyclizar

Tornadus-Therian

Cyclizar has still been pretty good in the new metagame, basically doing the exact same stuff it did before. He knocks, he turns, he doesn't die, etc. It's also pretty nice to have the de facto ghost of the metagame to be deathly afraid of Knock meaning that it can't even spinblock properly, and if anything you can come in and pressure it yourself. Additionally, more regen mons coming w/ shifts gives you some room for double regen cores which were already pretty decent with Slowbro pre-home. More or less just a consistent utility queen that can act as a pseudo-Torn with a freed movepool.

Donphan

Donphan

I've been somewhat lower than most on Donovan for a while but he just feels rlly good rn. He's bulky, hits fairly hard, is a ground, soft checks a bunch, and carries good utility. Overall just a very respectable glue mon rn and it actually feels better than pre-shifts w/ stuff like hands around and a lot offensive teams enjoying what it brings to the table.

Rapid Fire Comments

quick comments

- Pretty bad, exists as a cheese mon to some extent
- Genuinely haven't seen or used this yet but I feel inclined to say it's probably good?
- Speed and bulk are a tad sad, Glowbro and Dirge being jesus is pretty bad, I think it has potential but rn it's in a weird spot, it definitely hits hard though and it does have some nasty status options so we'll see. I do think that PHeal sets have a lot of potential but Glowbros fuckin annoying. Fitting moves is also pretty awful. I ran Protect-Toxic as an option to nail both dirge and the flyers day 1 but you just get glowbro'd tbh. Maybe some other set will solve him who knows.
- Lunar Dance is acc p nice for offense, CM stuff with Tera has annoying potential but I feel like your damage output is just 0 unless you're turbo boosted and the ubiquitous presence of Encore Tinkaton makes it a bit of a momentum sink, not doing an awful lot rn but we'll see how things progress.
- Has felt dog, I feel inclined to blame 4MSS, it's just awk.
- Some people have gassed him up but I haven't seen him a single time nor have I used or tried to build with him. No opinion as of rn.
- Double dance cheese has been p easy to thwart and I rlly have to ask, what is she even supposed to do? Good bulk and its a fairy w/ ground coverage though so surely there is something out there...
Cool typing offensively, cool speed, sad in every other regard.
- I don't know what to think of u yet
- People aren't really using it or exploring it but it'll probably be nightmare fuel once it has been optimised. 2manystats and 2manyoptions 4 me. In particular Mew + Tera seems like a recipe for disaster even with the loss of recovery. So far it has mostly been DD but Neo-Demon Mew also has annoying potential (But I hope people continue to ignore it!)
- Gaining Rilla is a nice little buff. I think Stall is horrible rn but tbh Defog lucha feels like a necessary evil when you feel like putting yourself through the unpleasant experience of using it to stop spikes Meow from making omega progress.
- I've seen so much hype but tbh I don't really get it? I mean he's good, he ups and he hits hard. But I don't really see any kind of crazy meta defining menace in him.
- idk I think it's probably good but also in kind of a weird spot. Offensives prob good.
- I think it's kind of mediocre even w/ Tera. This gen added a bunch of options that annoy it a lot (namely Tink, TTar, Tera Dirge, etc.) so it feels like it has been relegated to high opportunity cost cheese. It's cringe though and if it ever goes then I will not mourn its loss.
- I've seen Muk hype but be so fr this mon does not keep up with any real offensive mon that isn't Gengar. Credit where it's due though, he's really annoying to switch into so teams w/ abusable passive fatsos e.g. Scream Tail can get cooked.
- TauntTurn and NP seem like threats but havent used or seen an awful lot so idkman
- Good scarfer but prone to chip and not particularly suffocating to answer rn, don't think it's particularly broken.
- Kantonian > Galarian, yes I think it's vaguely viable, no I will not elaborate.

mucho texto

 

[CoastalKing]

OU staples in UU is both helpful with learning the tier but also hell. So many drops that it's hard to understand which pokemon function well and which ones don't from the getgo.

 

[Stranger Meursault]

Metagame is pretty fun right now, but I'm sure some bans will be needed. There are a few mons that I expect to go back to OU by usage, as well.

First, the formerly UUBL pokemon:

I'm really enjoying Iron Hands, but he should probably go back to BL (unfortunate, since Tusk invalidates him in OU). It was banworthy before, and not much changed. Skeledirge kind of checks it, but not entirely, and it has a good matchup against almost all of the other Home pokemon that dropped this month. Best check is probably still Quagsire, and that didn't stop it from being banned the first time around.

Hydreigon will probably end up back in BL. Not as clear cut as Hands, but not too much has changed here. Tera steel+sub+nasty plot still smokes most of the tier. Other than general power creep, it hasn't really gained any significant counters from the drops.

Unlike the other two, Iron Leaves might now be fine for the tier. UU gained a ton of mons that create problems for Iron Leaves, and stop it from being oppressive with the booster energy (speed)+swords dance set. UU gained a lot of flying types, which Leaves doesn't like. Skeledirge can wall it, depending on the set. Scarf Meow can beat it. Leaves is now extremely reliant on having the right 3rd move for coverage, and is forced to tera more often than not. I almost never see this pokemon, right now. That said, if other bans go through, it might become a big threat again. For now, very manageable.

For new pokemon:

Not too much to add here. It is very good. Maybe too good. Works as both a wall and a win con. In UU, It doesn't face the same pressure that it did in OU, and it was still a good mon in that tier. It might be banworthy, and it also might rise back to OU by usage at some point.

Maybe banworthy, but I don't think it is going to stick around in UU for long enough to find out. This was the first mon to miss the OU usage cut (was at 4.2%) in June, and I think it will get back above 4.5% usage at some point. It was the 9th most used pokemon in OU in May, and while it did gain counters and competition, it still should be quite useful in that tier after an adjustment period. Anyway, while it is in UU, it might be the best pokemon in the tier. It is the second fastest mon, behind Talonflame (tied with Noivern, which I haven't seen post drop), and can run a number of viable sets. Scarf, Band, lead/sash, etc. all work very well, which makes it hard to predict. Personally, I like scarf+trick. Meow outspeeds most teams without scarf, so it can get rid of the scarf and cripple an opposing pokemon if it is facing a slower team. Flower trick, knock off, and u turn are all extremely spammable moves. It can get up spikes if needed. Really great all around.

Beyond that, there are a bunch of really interesting drops, some of which might be banworthy. Arcanine-H is great. Very few switchins to choice band and tera normal espeed is a good win con. Thundurus-T is powerful and is able to take advantage of the lower speed tier in UU. Moltres-G can become a really good wincon in the right conditions (usually behind screens + tera fairy). Zapdos-G is a great choice item users. Enamorus-T seems unexplored. The setup sets work well, but I think it could be effective with a simple specs set that takes advantage of the strongest moonblast in the tier. Basculegion-F is almost as hard to switch into as Arcanine. Breloom could become a top tier threat after a few other bans. I'm not as sure about Tornadus-T, which should be great in theory, but is really missing its utility moves (relying on low accuracy moves also hurts).

Plenty of pre-home UU mons are still good, as well. Donphan has been mentioned, but Hippowdon is also very useful right now. It beats many of the new physical threats (especially with rocky helmet), phases out setup mons, and puts up rocks. Talonflame is still good, specifically in a utility role. Defog+taunt+flame body can put in a ton of support work. Scizor, obviously, is still good. Tinkaton remains a staple, especially with encore. Last, but not least, Forretress remains the premier UU pokemon, essential to any team.

 

[Moyashi]

Unlike the other two, Iron Leaves might now be fine for the tier. UU gained a ton of mons that create problems for Iron Leaves, and stop it from being oppressive with the booster energy (speed)+swords dance set. UU gained a lot of flying types, which Leaves doesn't like. Skeledirge can wall it, depending on the set. Scarf Meow can beat it. Leaves is now extremely reliant on having the right 3rd move for coverage, and is forced to tera more often than not. I almost never see this pokemon, right now. That said, if other bans go through, it might become a big threat again. For now, very manageable.

Outside Skeledirge... What drops exactly create trouble for it? Leaves can realistically SD, especially if it forces a switch to something attempting to halt it, like say TornT for example, then tera as the opponent attacks while choosing to attack or even boost again since they aren't threatening post tera Leaves. Similarly Meow can't necessarily beat it post tera either.

I could be missing something but i dom't think much has changed for Leaves since last time. Skeledirge obviously is a roadblock. But i can't think of anything else off the top of my head. And Dirge i thinl may be straddling the line of too good itself.

 

[ThatOneApple]

After some playing i have formulated some opinions on mons i find banworthy

The Former BLs:

Nothing really changed about them, leaves isnt used as much as the other two but it is still kinda dumb


For iron hands, sure it kinda needs eq to beat dirge but that brings up two problems, one being that the one mon that is *supposed* to beat it easily actually doesnt do it too well, and that dirge itself is broken for reasons i will explain later in this post. There are other checks in hippo, quag, and scream, but those can struggle vs hands for a lot of the same reasons they used to prior to hands' initial ban, being either too passive to actually threaten it, or just being unable to force much damage on anything other than hands, allowing them to switch out rather easily and have hands last the whole game at near max health while your check gets worn down from repeated hits.


Hydreigon and Iron leaves are also kinda similar to what they were prior to their initial ban, but instead of being able to outlast checks and win the long game, they just lack reliable checks.


Hydreigon's "checks" boil down to most just scream tail and sort of tinkaton . Tinkaton just doesnt really work well if it carries earth power, and scream, while pretty effective against some hydreis due to being able to encore it into nasty plot, shouldnt be the only stopgap and isnt too effective against hydreis with flash cannon. There is also tera fairy dirge, but that doesnt work too well against flash cannon hydrei and once again is checking a broken with a broken.


This mon doesnt really have much in terms of checks, dirge kinda is, but that mon is already tasked with so much and probably cant even switch into a leaves with an attack quark drive boost. Meanwhile a speed booster energy set with sd just mauls any offense team, as it outruns any would be scarfer and isnt too afraid of priority due to first impression virtually being gone from the tier.

New mons that are I find stupid


This mon may be kinda holding the tier together in a way, but that doesnt mean its ok. The only way to check it is to use h-arc on every team, or force it to tera with something like hydrei or galar moltes, and then to punish it with something like sciz or tink. Which might *seem* reasonable, but needing to constantly run the same mon on every team or to dedicate multiple team slots in a meta where it can feel hard to fit everything you need on a team feels like a good enough reason to remove it.

and
These two i find particularly dumb for similar reasons

They just dont have safe answers

Ill start with breloom, as i think its more painful to check
Loaded dice Bullet seed and cc both hit like a truck, and any flying type that tries to answer it either gets spored on the switch, ohko'd by rock tomb, or is too slow to outrun loom after a rock tomb, and thus gets finished off. Not to mention dirge, who yes, does resist both stabs, also gets 2hko'd by rock tomb, and even if you double to dirge on the breloom switch or something, dirge cant stay in until breloom puts something out of commision with spore. Pretty much, this mon beats the crap out of you way too easily

As for hisuian lilligant, its pretty similar to breloom in the fact that it blows up so much with its stabs, but there are two notable differences. One, it is tera reliant to break dirge and fliers, but it is much faster, hits much harder, and has access to a physical quiver dance. it does need some chip on dirge for tera rock/ghost tera blast to kill, but that chip is far from difficult to get considering how much else dirge needs to answer. Being tera reliant is a bit of a pain yes, but even then, with tera both scarf and victory dance sets are just pain and id rather see the meta without a mon that can run you over so easily.

I'd also like to state the the above mons are likely to become a lot more stupid once dirge is banned (bar dirge itself, because duh) because now the thing that semi checks all of them is gone, and you are forced to dedicate so much more to check all of them.

Other things that i think may need to be banned/suspected in the future


This mon is kinda like hydreigon-lite, hasnt been too too crazy lately but i got my eye on it


Not at the top of my chopping block but i'm not the biggest fan of this thing having a type combo that the tier cant resist alongside actual stats (looking at you flamigo), rocky helmet bro and mola check it pretty well but i feel needing those kinda piles on to the stack of "must have this to not immediately die to that." might end up becoming more manageable as other things get banned tho so i'd keep an eye on it for now


This thing gaining ground coverage in eq and epower kinda makes it a nightmare to check safely, sure it needs scarf so it can end up being prediction reliant, but the fact that scream is the only reliable fairy to check it doesnt really sit too well with me.

Overall this is how i feel about this current meta. You may agree or disagree, thats how it be.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

and
These two i find particularly dumb for similar reasons

They just dont have safe answers

Ill start with breloom, as i think its more painful to check
Loaded dice Bullet seed and cc both hit like a truck, and any flying type that tries to answer it either gets spored on the switch, ohko'd by rock tomb, or is too slow to outrun loom after a rock tomb, and thus gets finished off. Not to mention dirge, who yes, does resist both stabs, also gets 2hko'd by rock tomb, and even if you double to dirge on the breloom switch or something, dirge cant stay in until breloom puts something out of commision with spore. Pretty much, this mon beats the crap out of you way too easily

As for hisuian lilligant, its pretty similar to breloom in the fact that it blows up so much with its stabs, but there are two notable differences. One, it is tera reliant to break dirge and fliers, but it is much faster, hits much harder, and has access to a physical quiver dance. it does need some chip on dirge for tera rock/ghost tera blast to kill, but that chip is far from difficult to get considering how much else dirge needs to answer. Being tera reliant is a bit of a pain yes, but even then, with tera both scarf and victory dance sets are just pain and id rather see the meta without a mon that can run you over so easily.

I'd also like to state the the above mons are likely to become a lot more stupid once dirge is banned (bar dirge itself, because duh) because now the thing that semi checks all of them is gone, and you are forced to dedicate so much more to check all of them.

Other things that i think may need to be banned/suspected in the future

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 102-120 (29.3 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 147-174 (42.2 - 50%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 78-92 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery



THE DAWG IS IN

 

[carbonlifeform]

and
These two i find particularly dumb for similar reasons

They just dont have safe answers

Ill start with breloom, as i think its more painful to check
Loaded dice Bullet seed and cc both hit like a truck, and any flying type that tries to answer it either gets spored on the switch, ohko'd by rock tomb, or is too slow to outrun loom after a rock tomb, and thus gets finished off. Not to mention dirge, who yes, does resist both stabs, also gets 2hko'd by rock tomb, and even if you double to dirge on the breloom switch or something, dirge cant stay in until breloom puts something out of commision with spore. Pretty much, this mon beats the crap out of you way too easily

As for hisuian lilligant, its pretty similar to breloom in the fact that it blows up so much with its stabs, but there are two notable differences. One, it is tera reliant to break dirge and fliers, but it is much faster, hits much harder, and has access to a physical quiver dance. it does need some chip on dirge for tera rock/ghost tera blast to kill, but that chip is far from difficult to get considering how much else dirge needs to answer. Being tera reliant is a bit of a pain yes, but even then, with tera both scarf and victory dance sets are just pain and id rather see the meta without a mon that can run you over so easily.

I'd also like to state the the above mons are likely to become a lot more stupid once dirge is banned (bar dirge itself, because duh) because now the thing that semi checks all of them is gone, and you are forced to dedicate so much more to check all of them.

Other things that i think may need to be banned/suspected in the future

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View attachment 532135

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 102-120 (29.3 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 147-174 (42.2 - 50%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 78-92 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery



THE DAWG IS IN

Except Fire and Ghost are probably the two most popular Tera types for Hisuigant, and Tera Blast isn't a contact move.

+1 252 Atk Hustle Tera Fire Lilligant-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 366-432 (105.1 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Because of Fluffy, Tera Fire in particular will always at least 2HKO at +1

Bullet Seed also isn't a contact move, so you've got to be super careful about Loaded Dice Breloom, even if Spore is out of play:

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 196-232 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[bigasschungusboi]

In hindsight, I should have labeled this a joke post, But this also highlights the biggest issues with the DAWG. Then again, no other mon walls Gzap like it, and I will find a niche for it just wait.

 

[Liz Angeles]

Cool to see the under inspection thread, I talked about most of these mons already but I'm bored and my thoughts on some stuff has changed so here's a rundown of my thoughts on all the mons mentioned, ordered most to least problematic:


I don't have much to add on this, I think this is an obvious quickban at this point, there's just no way any mon should be this strong and bulky.


I think this is easily qb worthy rn. I've used it a lot since I last talked about it and of everything I used this felt like the most broken mon, np 3 attacks just destroys the entire meta (except for dragon types weirdly lol). It has some issues with consistency and the tier being faster than it was last time we had hydreigon does make it somewhat easier to deal with but it just has no place in the tier.


Think this mon is probably broken but not qb worthy rn, notably when I was building ho it felt really easy to exploit although maybe this was because of broken hydreigon, very centralising for bo and balance builds but overall feels manageable, can snowball pretty horribly at times though.


Damage output is insane, very difficult to reliably check. Absolutely would be broken if it could run 5 moves, but the threat of spore helps aoa variants a lot, and spore is dumb on such an offensively threatening mon. Probably not qb worthy rn but worth keeping an eye on.


I don't really think this thing is broken but it is pretty effective at removing important defensive pieces with tera, I think ghost is better than rock for glowbro but rock is nice for enamorus, I get why people think this is broken but I don't really buy it.


I've used this mon a lot, can be really good but requires quite a bit of support and is very reliant on hurricane, maybe if tera blast sets can find consistency this could be a problem but as of rn it's just good.


I feel like this mon is what ladder players last gen thought darmanitan was, it's kind of restrictive when building bulkier stuff but nowhere near banworthy imo, pretty good anti offense mon when played right.

Other Thoughts
Slightly surprised wasn't on here because I think it's pretty comparable to some of the mons that are but I guess it didn't get the same amount of discussion as other stuff. and have pretty annoying cheese sets, particularly under screens, to the point where I briefly discussed light clay with a couple of friends, but that's likely something to come back to if screens are still prevalent later on. That's pretty much everything, here's a team for all the real ones who read to the end https://pokepast.es/24e18c08ec1ff707

 

[MrE]

Not sure much needs to be said here, sounds like it's going to be gone again and it's immortal bs that blows a huge hole in your team.



I didn't play UU when this was last legal and I think I've seen it twice in my 50-60 games so I can't comment on if it's broken or not due to no experience.



It's a monster and a bit too often games are decided by who's Dirge wins the mirror but if we get rid of it so many mons go completely out of control and it's probably too early to tell if it's broken or not. Suspect after some of the more egregious things are gone seems reasonable imo. It also really really wants to burn the tera but it's so good it's often worth it.



This thing is busted please ban it. Disc is talking about how Hippo, Gast and Quag 'check' it, really?

252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Hippo often runs helmet)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 159-187 (40.3 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 180-213 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Normal Arcanine-Hisui Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-213 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So if there's been any chip on any of these mons before you bring H-Nine they can't switch into it without being eaten alive and these mons are often required to come in on all the other big threats in the tier and are often not at 100%. Also tera grass tera blast, teammates exist and there's a lot of top quality grass type in the tier rn that give these mons hell. Being a stupid breaker isn't the only thing it can do it can also be a late game cleaner with scarf/espeed where the power is less needed as things are usually worn down a bit by then. Also burning the tera for espeed on this is usually a positive trade as it helps its longevity with rocks a lot and is much better defensively.



I think this is fine, double dance sets really struggle for coverage and if you're only running one boosting move it's either a bit slow or bit weak



It's frail but hits like a truck whilst victory dance is stupid. Has horrible 4mss and hustle makes you miss way too much. If dirge goes this will be a big problem but seems fine for now.



I love loom but my god is he a pain to play against due to having to dance around spore, Bullet Seed, Mach Punch/CC and Rock Tomb is really good coverage and having to choose a mon to go to sleep can be difficult especially if the opposition doesn't just mindlessly spore turn one that it's in and chunks/ko's the mon you wanted to go to sleep. He's much more difficult to face that H-Lilligant is imo but not sure he's ban worthy, again gets a lot better if Dirge goes not that Dirge is a good answer to Loom due to spore and RT 2HKO'ing if the Dirge is specially defensive like what is standard.

EDIT: How do you code it for the regional forms to show up as emoji's?

 

[Accel]

EDIT: How do you code it for the regional forms to show up as emoji's?

:(pokemon name)-(region): so for example, Galarian Moltres would be : (Moltres) - (Galar) : and Hisuian Lilligant would be : (Lilligant) - (Hisui) : without the parentheses and spaces. Great post btw

 

[Twilight]

Giga busted, already explained in a little depth in my last post


I still believe Hydreigon is going to be too much personally. Most people mention how Hands limits it but also call for a Hands ban anyways, so naturally it's going to benefit long-term if that does happen. I don't think the Speed tier is that much of an issue for it especially with set diversity being so high. NP Sub, NP 3 Atks, Specs, Rocks, Scarf, etc. Perhaps it is more suspect worthy if it comes to it.


Perfectly fine in the tier. If you want this thing to actually do damage and drop stuff it needs CB or LO, which means it gets worn down by hazards and any chip. Boots sets remedy the weakness to hazards but give up the breaking power. Hippo, Slowbro, Alo, Quag, Gastro, etc. are all good Pokemon and can scout against it. If you really struggle against it start running Protect on stuff like Amuk and Wo-Chien too.


Only seen it about 4-5 times. The double dance sets feel manageable to me between Tyranitar, Tink, Tera Hippo, Tera Skeli, Hoodra, etc. I got caught off-guard once by Tera Fighting with Tera Blast, which does let it get through some checks better but at the cost of its matchup against offensive threats because you have to drop Agility, making it easier to revenge as a result.


I don't think this mon is that good. It is pretty reliant on Tera to get through most things and to actually set up Victory Dance. I think Tera Ghost and Rock are the most common ones I have run into, which is mostly because of Skeli I think. People should run Scarf Gren and Gengar more if they really struggle to revenge it. It does have checks defensively but it is pretty dependent on what coverage it is running so I can understand the vote.


It's got enough defensive checks imo and struggles to deal with a lot of faster stuff due to the middling Speed tier. Spore is annoying but the likelihood is the mon switching in to take the Spore would have died anyways if you clicked the damage move. I guess it eases prediction but then you can't run CC, which means you can't break through stuff like Hoodra. If Spore is giving people issues then you could consider Safety Goggles on certain stuff. For example, Glowbro can start running it given it is one of the least item-dependant Pokemon out there.


I still don't enjoy playing against it but the mon is fine I think. It is actually pretty easy to overwhelm it and potentially force the defensive Tera out early, which makes your game plan easier. You sometimes get games where it auto wins/comes down to Skeli wars but I think that is more of a team-building thing than anything.



Overqwil @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe
Impish Nature
- Crunch
- Barb Barrage
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes / Protect / Toxic / Taunt

Wanted to highlight something that hasn't been mentioned yet and that is Overqwil. Poison Dark is a great defensive typing and alongside Intimidate it becomes effective at dealing with Rillaboom, Breloom, Meow, Iron Leaves, etc. It is a good Spikes setter because it has the means to punish removal with the 50% poison chance of Barb Barrage. Toxic Spikes aren't necessary but it gives a guaranteed way to boost Barb Barrage without relying on a 50/50. Toxic works in a similar manner but immediately punishes Ttar, Quag, Hippo, etc. + hits Flying-types. Otherwise Protect is cool to net Lefties and scout stuff like Harcanine while Taunt is a lot more situational and helps primarily against bulkier teams. Not really sure what the best Tera option for it is tbh, so I just stuck with Poison mainly to boost Barrage dmg and remove the Dark-typing against Lili and Loom. I find it works well with Wish support from the likes of Scream Tail and Sylveon. Also, it works great with Hex users like Skeli. I'm sure someone can create a more optimal set and spread for it but maybe this will get some people to try it out :D

 

[Askov]

ok i was gonna post my thoughts on the pokes in the radar but twilights post sums up pretty well for the most part my thoughts, but i do think that skeledirge isn't something that you can pressure that easily speaking from a more balanceish perspective and even stuff that don't fear being burned has the risk of getting torch song setup foddered on.

Yes, it does need tera to beat some of the stuff but i feel like it's usually worth most of the time considering that tera fairy skele is fairly hard to break through anyway and good teams should account covering stuff that skele won't cover after teraing anyway, and even without tera you're still able to check a decent amount of stuff in the meta.

About HO being able to pressure skele with stuff overwhelming it for a teammate, i think it can be also said that the skele user can have a team that can use another poke to check stuff that they won't want to use skele to do so and allow it to be weakened enough for an opposing poke, so idk how valid it is as an argument

Other thoughts:

I think it's also worth taking a look at them in the next round (not saying all of them are undeniably broken, but pokes that could have potential to be broken/suspected now or in the near future depending on how the meta goes):

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Please get Iron Hands out of this tier. I wish we never had to test Iron Hands in UU. It's comically broken for the tier.